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Template:Did you know nominations/Lynching of Irving and Herman Arthur

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 14:54, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Lynching of Irving and Herman Arthur

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Lynching memorial at National Memorial for Peace and Justice
Lynching memorial at National Memorial for Peace and Justice
  • ... that Black brothers Irving and Herman Arthur are memorialized on a lynching memorial (pictured) after they were tied to a stake and burnt alive by a white mob at a fairground in Paris, Texas? "Texas Mob Burns Negroes At Stake" [1], "Mob of Texans Burns Negroes" [2], "People like Irving and Herman Arthur, burned to death on July 6, 1920, before a mob of 3,000 at a fairground in Paris, Texas." [3]
  • ALT1 ... that African-American brothers Irving and Herman Arthur are memorialized on a lynching memorial (pictured) after they were tied to a stake and burnt alive by a white mob at a fairground in Paris, Texas? "Texas Mob Burns Negroes At Stake" [4], "Mob of Texans Burns Negroes" [5], "People like Irving and Herman Arthur, burned to death on July 6, 1920, before a mob of 3,000 at a fairground in Paris, Texas." [6]
  • ALT2 ... that on July 6, 1920, African-American brothers Irving and Herman Arthur were tied to a stake and burnt alive by a white mob at a fairground in Paris, Texas? "Texas Mob Burns Negroes At Stake" [7], "Mob of Texans Burns Negroes" [8]

5x expanded by Thats Just Great (talk) and Eurodog (talk). Nominated by Thats Just Great (talk) at 19:40, 19 July 2020 (UTC).

I immediately fail this due to neutrality problems and what looks to be likely copyright violations. However, article length and age are fine, and reliable sources are used. I personally prefer ALT2. Lettlerhello 02:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

the direct quotes highlighted by the Earwig tool are not grounds for neutrality issues. Quotes are pemissible to use as long as they are properly cited and attributed and not exessive. Flibirigit (talk) 04:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • What are the neutrality issues? --Thats Just Great (talk) 15:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
    • "in a barbaric event that extended and amplified regional and national flashpoints for justice.", the first sentence.
      "The National Memorial for Peace and Justice opened in Montgomery, Alabama, two years ago in a setting of six acres. Featured, among other things, is a sculpture by Kwame Akoto-Bamfo of a mother, chain around her neck, infant in her arms, registering a horror she can't escape."
      "Unfortunately, the 2020 COVID crisis kept away most Paris residents due to fears of the disease and social distancing restrictions."
      Please read WP:FIRST. Lettlerhello 16:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Changed the quotes. What is wrong with the COVID line? It is based on this article "only a handful of Paris residents attended, largely because of social distancing restrictions imposed by COVID-19" [9]. -- Thats Just Great (talk) 16:38, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • "Unfortunately" does not belong in the sentence. Lettlerhello 22:05, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Removed suggested neutrality violations, the high Earwig score is due to quotations but as pointed out they are properly cited, attributed and not used to excess. As per User:Lettlerhello "article length and age are fine, and reliable sources are used. I personally prefer ALT2" -- Thats Just Great (talk) 21:26, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
    • The article continues to need copyediting and formatting. For example, some text clearly lacks sources, and the sources should not have spaces between them and the text or between each other. It's a bit odd that the brothers are introduced in the lead in a different order to the article title, and the lead as a whole should be expanded to meet WP:LEAD. I believe the copyright issues detected by earwig are not an issue, although I have not looked further into it than earwig. I do not think the composite image used for the lead is necessarily encyclopaedic. I have not looked closely for neutrality issues yet, but I believe from a first read that this article can meet DYK standards after further cleanup and review. CMD (talk) 04:42, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
  • OK the following has been done:
  • copyediting and formatting
  • Every paragraph has a source.
  • No spaces between them and the text or between each other
  • Name order in the opening has been changed
  • The LEAD has been expanded
Much improved. The sentence beginning "But, at some point" needs to be split into multiple sentences. There is no need to link to the wikitictionary definition of pretense. The "Red Summer of 1919" section says this lynching was part of that summer, but the lead says this lynching occurred after that event. Remove "One month ago", such writing will become very dated very quickly. Similarly, "two years ago" should be replaced by a date. The "Laws, advocacy, and public policy" section does not appear to have direct relevance to the article topic.
Regarding hooks, the first two should probably say "a lynching memorial" not "the lynching memorial". All hooks appear accurate to the article. CMD (talk) 14:23, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Made suggested changes. Thanks for all the help, Chipmunkdavis! Can you do a new DYK review? @Chipmunkdavis: -- Thats Just Great (talk) 15:51, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
    • No problem, and there is no need to add the redirect symbol, that is usually done by a reviewer asking for as second opinion. I have slightly edited your suggested ALT1 to reduce repetition, let me know if it works. On the specific source, I can't find where "the exhibit also states" is supported, from the article it sounds like the monuments are like headstones and only list names. CMD (talk) 04:29, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
The National Memorial for Peace and Justice
The National Memorial for Peace and Justice

ALT1a ... that African-American brothers Irving and Herman Arthur are listed on a lynching memorial (pictured), having been tied to a stake and burnt alive by a white mob at a fairground in Paris, Texas?

  • OK after looking at some high resolution pictures you're right it is only the names that are on the memorial. So just to avoid confusion I edited the article to reflect that and now propose ALT3-- Thats Just Great (talk) 04:49, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

ALT3 ... that the names of African-American brothers Irving and Herman Arthur are listed on a lynching memorial (pictured) after they were tied to a stake and burnt alive by a white mob at a fairground in Paris, Texas? more than 800 steel monuments hang. Each monument represents a county where lynchings took place, listing names of people ... like Irving and Herman Arthur, burned to death on July 6, 1920, before a mob of 3,000 at a fairground in Paris [10]

  • My concern with using "after" is it implies to me quite a short space of time, whereas it took almost a century for the lynching to be recognized and memorialized. CMD (talk) 05:47, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

ALT4 ... that almost a century after African-American brothers Irving and Herman Arthur were tied to a stake and burnt alive by a white mob at a fairground in Paris, Texas their names were listed on a lynching memorial (pictured)? more than 800 steel monuments hang. Each monument represents a county where lynchings took place, listing names of people ... like Irving and Herman Arthur, burned to death on July 6, 1920, before a mob of 3,000 at a fairground in Paris [11]

I like it, but it's slightly too long. Some possibilities could be removing "tied to a stake and" as less relevant than the burning alive, "by a white mob" as this seems clear from context, or "at a fairground". CMD (talk) 06:19, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

  • ALT5 ... that almost a century after African-American brothers Irving and Herman Arthur were burnt alive at a fairground in Paris, Texas their names were listed on a lynching memorial (pictured)? more than 800 steel monuments hang. Each monument represents a county where lynchings took place, listing names of people ... like Irving and Herman Arthur, burned to death on July 6, 1920, before a mob of 3,000 at a fairground in Paris [12]
ALT5 is below 200 characters, good to go. CMD (talk) 16:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
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