Template:Did you know nominations/Maryul

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 10:10, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Maryul

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Shey, the capital of Maryul

... that the kingdom of Ladakh (capital pictured) was founded in the tenth century as an offshoot of West Tibet?
- ALT1:... that Ladakh was originally called Maryul (capital pictured), the lowland of West Tibet?

Comment: Please schedule this nomination for the main page on ~~31 May~~ 31 October, the scheduled date of Ladakh's independence from Kashmir.

5x expanded by Kautilya3 (talk). Self-nominated at 14:22, 7 October 2019 (UTC).

Article is new enough, long enough, neutral, and well references. It's a major expansion from a substub, although I feel much of the content regarding its later history more properly belongs to Namgyal dynasty of Ladakh. I encourage you to tie it more closely to the Namgyal article and explain the transition to later history, although that's beyond the scope of DYK. Hooks are interesting and supported by inline references. AGF for paywalled sources. I assume that you want the DYK to run on 31 Oct, not May, and that should not be a problem. Good to go. -Zanhe (talk) 22:21, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Forgot to mention, image is freely licensed, and I believe nominator is exempt from QPQ (QPQ check tool is down right now). -Zanhe (talk) 23:46, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

That you Zanhe for such a speedy review. I agree with your comments and will work on them in due course. But the focus in this article is just on the relationship between Ladakh and West Tibet. We don't want to repeat all of History of Ladakh here.

I believe I am exempt from QPQ since this is my first DYK nomination. But I won't mind doing my bit because there is enough time before the 31 October. Thanks again. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:29, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Reaffirming the tick. -Zanhe (talk) 21:05, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi Zanhe, just curious (for own learning), what steps did you take to make sure it runs on 31 October 2019 ? DBig Xrayᗙ 13:49, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

@DBigXray: Yoninah has already moved the nomination to the Special Occasions holding area, see [1]. -Zanhe (talk) 22:59, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I came by to promote this, but have a few questions. I don't see the ALT0 facts in the article. The excerpt from Petech doesn't mention being founded in 930 (the source is offline). Regarding ALT1, the name "Maryul" is alternately being translated as "lowland" and "land of Mar" under Etymology. There is no source for either translation. Nowhere in the article does it say Maryul was the "lowland of West Tibet", as in the hook. Regarding the image, this monastery is not the capital of Shey. The caption needs reworking. Yoninah (talk) 19:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@Yoninah: The article says Maryul means the "lowland of Ngari", and Ngari is almost synonymous with West Tibet, but I guess this should be stated more explicitly. -Zanhe (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

In this version, I have expanded quotations and added some more citations that cover the issues.

Re ALT0, "Maryul of Ngari" is how the area of Ladakh was described in the settlement document of c. 930, which is quoted verbatim in the body. Here "Maryul" means lowland and "Ngari" means West Tibet. As Zanhe says, Ngari is synonymous with West Tibet. Unfortunately, we don't have a proper article on the historical Ngari, except for the modern Ngari prefecture, which won't be a good target. So, I just linked to Tibet.
I have expanded the quotation of citation [1], which mentions the "lowland" part.
The "land of Mar" is a hypothesis about what the name could have meant earlier. In c. 930, the meaning was "lowland".
The dates 900–930 are the accepted dates for father Nyimagon, and 930–960 for the son Palgyigon.
As for the picture, "Shey Palace and Monastery" is how it is described in the source, i.e., housing both the religious and secular powers. The ruins of the palace from the 10th century are to the left in the image (faintly, as far as I can make out), and the later palace/monastery are the bright white buildings. After the capital was moved to Leh, this became a pure monastery. (I have added quotations to citations [14] and [15] that talk about Shey.)
As for the caption, I am open to suggestions. I originally wrote "Shey Palace, the capital of Maryul", but it seemed too long for the space available. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: thank you for improving the article. I think ALT1 is going to be the choice, and I suggest formatting it like this:
ALT1a: ... that Ladakh was originally called Maryul (capital pictured), the "lowland" of West Tibet?
Regarding the caption, are you saying that the palace was the capital? Or that the palace was in the capital? Or: "Shey Palace, summer home of the kings of Maryul"? (It would be nice to add a cite for this in the article.) Yoninah (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@Yoninah:, I am happy with your ALT1a, except that I wouldn't want to link to Ngari Prefecture. The modern day unit specifically excludes Maryul. So it would be confusing. Just "West Tibet" is understandable enough.
On the issue of the caption, I am not confident that "summer home" is correct. My sources ([14] and [15]) don't say it. It might have become a summer home after the real capital moved to Leh (by which time the kingdom also came to be called "Ladakh" rather than Maryul). How about "Shey Palace, the original capital of Maryul"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: OK, I removed the link altogether from the article and hook because Ngari is redirecting to Ngari Prefecture. Just confirming: the palace was the capital, as opposed to the city was the capital? Yoninah (talk) 00:00, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it seems that the "palace", fortified, was indeed the capital. We have no idea if there was a "city" but certainly fields and hamlets below the hillock, which would have supplied food but not really part of the seat of power. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Great, we're ready to roll. Yoninah (talk) 10:08, 25 October 2019 (UTC)