Template talk:POTD/2023-10-20

Fred Sullivan's most famous role

User:Amakuru continues to delete the statement, in this squib, that The Learned Judge in Trial by Jury was, *by far*, Fred Sullivan's most famous role. Indeed, had he not created that role, he would not be remembered today as such a notable actor. Even the summary at Commons so states. I strongly disagree with Amakuru's edit to the squib, and I believe that the edit summary calling it "fluff" misunderstands how we generally, and correctly, characterize actor biographies. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ssilvers: I have two issues with this really - firstly, to say it is his "most famous role" is one of the things we're urged not to do at MOS:PEACOCK; and secondly, I couldn't see that the claim was cited anywhere. However, if you can find sourcing to confirm that it's regarded as his most famous role, and then either phrase it as a quote (his role in Trial by Jury was described by historian XXXX as being "his most famous"), or else provide a source which specifically says that he is widely regarded as being the most famous, then that would satisfy my concerns and we can put it back in. This has nothing to do with my opinion, and I don't doubt that you're correct, but the information must come from reliable sources, not from your own knowledge, however comprehensive that might be. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 15:20, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We should reinstate the deleted words. There are any number of contemporary press references to the fact that the Learned Judge was Fred Sullivan's best known character. This is from The Manchester Evening News, 20 January 1877, p. 3:

DEATH OF MR. FRED. SULLIVAN. Yesterday morning, Mr Fred Sullivan, the well known actor, and brother of Mr Arthur Sullivan, the composer, died. His best known character was that of the Judge, in Trial by Jury…

This is from The Yorkshire Herald, 22 January 1877, p. 6:

As the Judge in "Trial by Jury", his latest and certainly the greatest of any of his personations, he will long be remembered...

The obituary notices in other British newspapers also specifically referred to the Judge as Fred Sullivan's best known role: see the obits in these papers:

Devon and Exeter Gazette, 23 January 1877, p. 4
Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News, 27 January 1877, p. 10
Kenilworth Advertiser, 27 January 1877, p. 5
Leicester Journal, 26 January 1877, p. 6
South London Press, 20 January 1877, p. 15
South Wales Daily News, 22 January 1877, p. 8
Ulster Examiner and Northern Star, 23 January 1877, p. 4
Weekly Standard and Express, 27 January 1877, p. 6.

I trust this clarifies the matter. Tim riley talk 16:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One more: "Frederick Sullivan, the actor, famous as the Judge in “Trial by Jury,” brother of Sir Arthur Sullivan, the composer, died here in 1877." (Fulham old and new, by Charles James Feret (1900), p. 67). -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, what MOS:PEACOCK says not to do is to say, for example, "Fred Sullivan was a famous actor". It doesn't prohibit us from explaining what, specifically, was the most famous or best known thing about a person. That is not fluff, it is helping readers to zero in on key facts in a long article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think that's right. Tim riley talk 18:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]