User talk:Böses Buschwerk123
Welcome
[edit]
|
Sudan and life sentence
[edit]Hi, It's not clear to me what the penalty for a 3rd offense is. Our other source in the article says it's 7 years. The source you linked to in your edit summary, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RvgOTI2ge0fQgbRQ40_VACkZYxkCxFfc/view, is garbled. It says for a second offense it is a maximum of 7 years which is a maximum of 5 years, which makes no sense. They don't say anything about revoking the life sentence, but they don't mention it either. Given that that one source says it's 7 years, and that the other implies it's life but is badly written, and that neither are RS's, I don't see how we can draw a conclusion. We need to see the modified law or a RS that clearly states the situation. — kwami (talk) 21:45, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
I read the link before it went offline, and it was incoherent. I take that to mean that we can't trust it -- if they say that the penalty for a 2nd offense is 7 yrs, but don't remove the 5 yrs, so it's both 7 yrs max and 5 yrs max, then how do we know that it means anything for them to not remove 'life'? It could just be another oversight by a sloppy editor. — kwami (talk) 05:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
"GSN believes the maximum sentences to be ..." -- but they're wrong about other things in that article, so they're not a RS. (Is there really a death-penalty law in Chechnya? Please let me know, I'll put it back on the map. And the law in Qatar and Yemen is for adultery. There are 15 countries with death for adultery laws, so why single out Qatar and Yemen?)
Reuters cites ILGA, but ILGA is not a RS, so Reuters isn't either. — kwami (talk) 05:19, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
What about the german source?
https://www.queer.de/detail.php?article_id=36601
Its Germany’s biggest newspaper about LGBT rights and they always do a very good job.
--Böses Buschwerk123 (talk) 05:23, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, AFAICT, they didn't do a good job this time. They say the penalty is for "Unzucht" (they even use quotes), by which I assume they mean zina, but that's wrong -- the Sudanese law is explicitly about anal sex. That's such a basic error that I don't know how we can trust the rest of what they say.
- But I just heard back from Bedayaa, and (I hope) they should know if anyone does, and better than do English- or German-language sources that don't have that access. Strange that everything's presented as English, as I would think the law's in Arabic, but they should hopefully be able to interpret the translation rather than taking the translation errors literally as we would have to. What they say in summary fits your interpretation:
- the law stays as it is except removal of lashes and death penalty, and more two years imprisonment in case the person got arrested for the second time.
- It sounds like the penalty for a 3rd offense is life in prison, no leeway, not "up to". I've asked them to confirm this and also if anyone has ever been given life. But regardless, given that they agree with the most likely interpretation, and should have access to the original sources, I withdraw my objections. — kwami (talk) 12:32, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Ah, "No documented cases so far of life imprisonment or death penalty." — kwami (talk) 12:36, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Confirmed the judge can't go easy on you, with a fine or lighter sentence, for the third offense. — kwami (talk) 12:49, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your great work!! You’re always doing your best to improve this wiki. It’s great that you clarified that. --Böses Buschwerk123 (talk) 12:54, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
What shall we do with the long quotation at the history of Sudans LGBT rights?
- Can't say I care much. Do whatever you think best. It would be important for a general clean-up of the article, but I'm only really interested in getting the facts right. — kwami (talk) 16:06, 19 July 2020 (UTC)