User talk:Dwaink

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my reply to...

Sorry that u have little time for this endevor, and i will try to exercise patience in this "talking". I will also endevor to be balanced in my responses and "promises" as i am quite sure you are of the mind that i am unbalanced by some of my statements/promises. But i am not, and it is my wish to clear Geshe Kelsang's name here. Not to protect NKT but to allow others to come to know this good man as i have, without bias.

Nice. Your effort in contributing to improve the artcile is always welcome. Maybe we discuss exactly what section with what sources do you wish to improve, so we can save time and effort by reducing philosophical discussions. kt66

One thing that has been strongly on my mind is your indication that there is no mention in Buddha's teachings about forsaking your teachers teachings. I think this is false, clearly the Buddha did say to use all discrimination before following his path.

Let me be frank. Sorry, but there is no such quote, if you have one please give it. Did you read the commentary of Tsongkhapa on Guru devotion based on the scriptures ? - it tells the opposite! Maybe you start doing this. The point is most NKT people are clearly brainwahsed with semithruth "Dharma"-ideas. It is not my job to dispell them and especially noone in NKT is longing for such effort. But if you wish to contribute you have to get informed by unbiased Dharma-sources and can not only follow what GKG tells, even when Lama Zopa agrees to it, it must not be correct. Also we should not mix different levels of practioners and pracise. The better you are informed on unbiased sources, the better the discussion will gets. kt66

This differs strongly from what one must do after haveing made the choice to follow his path though. Once one takes vows to be a Buddhist i think the Buddha was very clear about this.

Where did he say this? In the Vinaya he states not to follow if it is a irregular Dharma command. The texts of Guru devotion advice to excuse oneself to the Guru and telling: sorry I am not able to do this. This is no fault! If the command of the Teacher is not according to Dharma, you just ignore it. (see Tsongkhapa's text). If the teacher is going heavily astray you just disconnect with him (see Kalachakra texts). Never the Budhha has taught to follow blindly and under all circumstances. I see you as a victim of NKT Dharma-propaganda and your own non-knowledge not to know much about this subject but relying blindly on claims without ever having proofed them correctly. However, this is a problem which can be overcomed by reading the scriptures and receiving teachings from different Gurus as well. kt66

Perhaps this is like Supan's snake, we both see the multi colored cord and have differing perceptions arise about what we see? I have tried to find direct indication in the sutras about this:

>Good man, if one wishes to accomplish the wisdom of all wisdom, then one must decisively seek a true good knowing [spiritual] advisor. Good man, in seeking for a good knowing advisor, do not become weary or lax. And upon seeing a good knowing advisor, do not become satiated. As to a good knowing advisor and all his teachings, you must follow and accord. As to expedient devices employed by a good knowing advisor, do not find faults.>

I have lots of others, where i think the Buddha stated exactly my claim but for brevity's sake will forego filling up your page with them. I now have a page and would invite you to continue this disscussion there. Where we might room to talk at length.Dwaink 20:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You have to see all the scriptures and put the different quotes together. Of course it is advised to follow the teacher properly BUT this includes as well not to follow his advice when it isn't in accordance with the Dharma AND only to follow the advice if your are able to do it. Another point is you can follow differnt wisdom-teachers and not just one, by following also other teachers the basis of once understanding will increase, you can put all the knowledge togehter and even refute teachings if you checked and see them as not correct. For this I put a lot of examples from the past masters at the GKG talk page...So the point is to have a boroad understanding of the Dharma. Maybe you start reading this text here: http://www.berzinarchives.com/e-books/spiritual_teacher/spiritual_teacher_1.html take care kt66

by the way the article on GKG should be improved, so I do not argue against this need. kt66