User talk:Freelance Intellectual

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Little context in Synaptic knob

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Sichuanese

Hi! Thank you a lot for improving the English quality of the two arcticles I wrote. (^___^)

However, I doubt that you put a "unreliable sources" template in the article, because most of the resource I cited is from Chinese academic journals, papers or books. And the rest is from some Chinese newspaper. --本本一世 (talk) 11:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if there's any research about Sichuanese done outside China, in fact, most research is done by scholars in Sichuan or Chongqing. When I searched for something English about Sichuanese once, I was quite shocked that many people believe Sichuanese is just an accent, and compare it with American English.

The variety of Mandarin, especially the great gap between Northern Mandarin and Southern Mandarin (Southwestern and Jianghuai), may have not yet couse the attention of English-speaking scholars, although Southern Mandarin is quite endangered now and may be completely northernized in the future. --本本一世 (talk) 05:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

labial-dental

Quote from your edit summary:

Labial-dental is not labio-dental. The former is doubly articulated ("dental" here meaning a kind of alveolar with the tongue near the top teeth), while the latter is singly articulated ("dental" here meaning using the bottom teeth))

Okay, I can't quite follow this. Do you mean Yele w is [ʋ͡ð̞] (or maybe [β̞͡ð̞])? Also, I don't know what the 'bottom teeth' are about: labiodental is with the lower lip against the upper teeth (though dentolabial has these switched: the upper lip against the lower teeth). --JorisvS (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, very sorry, I explained wrongly! I didn't mean "bottom teeth" at all - labiodental is with the bottom LIP against the TOP teeth, as you correctly said. (Is it possible to edit the summary of an edit?) My point was that labiodental is singly articulated. I believe your second suggestion is correct (since it's bilabial), and I'm assuming you're using the lowering diacritic to indicate that it's more of an approximant than a fricative. Now, I have to add that I don't actually speak this language myself (and haven't even heard it, actually); this is only what I understand from what I've read. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 19:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, unfortunately edit summaries cannot be edited. Whether you speak the language or not is(, fortunately,) not very relevant, only what the sources tell us. So, can you cite the things you've read? It would be great if you can, as we could then just fix the text (in any case it needs some fixing) and say Yele w is [β̞͡ð̞] and use a proper reference and then everything will be better. (Also, note that [β̞͡ð̞] is best described as "bilabial–dental".) --JorisvS (talk) 22:31, 9 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "bilabial" would be more accurate than merely "labial", but most of the literature simply uses "labial", presumably since labiodental co-articulated consonants are rare (although not non-existant, e.g. "r" in some varieties of English, including my own, actually). This isn't just true for "labial-dental" - you often see "labial-velar" instead of "bilabial-velar", and so on. The only source I've read which is specific about this sound is the SIL phonological data already cited in the article. It lists "w" as a "voiced labial-dental approximant". Notably, it's listed outside of the main table of consonants (which includes an empty labiodental column), presumably since it's doubly articulated. Now, I admit that I am inferring the details of the articulation based on other facts I know about the language (e.g. chapter 10 of "The Sounds of the World's Languages" (Ladefoged and Maddieson), which goes into some detail about its plosives and nasals), but a bilabial-dental would fit much more neatly into the rest of the phonological structure than a labiodental would, since there are bilabial-dental plosives and nasals, but no labiodentals. I suppose we could check Henderson's "The Phonology and Grammar of Yele", if you're still in doubt. I don't have a copy of this myself, but I suppose I could make a visit to the library at some point.

I think that could be a good idea. The info on the doubly articulated consonants is sketchy and, above all, quite messy (just look at the symbols in the approximant row). Using proper IPA accompanied by good (inline) references would be good here. Also, I'd say the prose describing the doubly articulated consonants would be much improved if it's more explicit than it currently is. Given the language's unique phonology precision would be important. --JorisvS (talk) 21:49, 11 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've finally had time to find Henderson's book, and it describes Yeli-Dnye as having four basic places of articulation (bilabial, dental, (post-)alveolar, and velar), and three co-articulated places of articulation (bilabial-dental, bilabial-alveolar, and bilabial-velar). These last three are referred to as "simultaneous bilabial closure" (SBC). These can then be modified by palatalisation and labialisation, and the stops can be prenasalised or nasally released. This much agrees with the article. Including all attested variants, he lists 56 different stops, 12 nasals, 2 "semi-vowels", and 5 "non-nasal continuants". [w] is listed as a bilabial semi-vowel (and *not* dental + SBC), which suggests that a stricter IPA transcription should be [β̞]. However, this seems to directly contradict the SIL report - which is doubly strange since that was supposedly checked by Henderson! In any case, [w] should be either [β̞] or [β̞͡ð̞], and definitely not [ʋ]. Perhaps we should note this uncertainty in the article. And about the approximants and fricatives listed in the article - Henderson lists 7 of the 9 given, not mentioning [β] or [j͡w]. He labels [w] and [j] as semi-vowels, and the other five as non-nasal continuants. So at least 7 of the 9 are correct - the other two, I don't know. In fact, [j͡w] would only make sense using a non-standard reading of [w] (otherwise it would be a triple articulation!), perhaps [β̞], as Henderson seems to use it in his book. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 17:17, 20 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If he describes it as a "bilabial semi-vowel", then it sounds like [β̞] should be used (maybe add a note that Henderson uses [w], but that his description is bilabial). Do I understand you correctly that Henderson doesn't list the bilabial fricative in our table, but does list a "bilabial [w]" and a fricative [βʲ]? [j͡w] doesn't make much sense, and if our sources don't list it, I'd say it is better to remove it. --JorisvS (talk) 10:52, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You do understand me correctly, but the those two consonants he doesn't list can be inferred from the SIL report (assuming that the article is using [j͡w] to mean [j͡β̞]). I'm tempted to side with the data in Henderson's book, simply because it's more thoroughly backed up with examples, but of course I don't know. Given the obvious contradictions, I think it would be best to rewrite the article using the analysis in Henderson's book (with a stricter IPA transcription), and note where the SIL report differs - although of course we could equally do the reverse. What do you think? Freelance Intellectual (talk) 21:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean exactly when you say "can be inferred from the SIL report"? --JorisvS (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By that I mean this section of the report:

All consonants except / n̪ n ɣ w y / can be palatalized. Labialization can accompany bilabial and velar consonants except / β ɣ w /. Bilabial plosives and nasals can be palatalized and labialized simultaneously. Plosives can also be prenasalized or nasally released, but not both at the same time. Non-bilabial consonants except /ɣ/ can be articulated with or without simultaneous bilabial closure. All these are interpreted as suprasegmentals.

This implies that [β] can be palatalised to produce [βʲ], and [j] can be articulated with simultaneous bilabial closure to produce [j͡β̞]. I am assuming that by /y/, they mean /j/. However, I've now also noticed that in other places, the article doesn't agree with the SIL report. As I said before, I would suggest rewriting it to match Henderson's book.Freelance Intellectual (talk) 10:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, then I think that the article could be rewritten to match Henderson's book (with the IPA corrected), but that the info from the SIL report should be mentioned where relevant. Though, it just struck me.. how big would the difference between [βʲ] and [j͡β̞] be? --JorisvS (talk) 14:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

June 2013

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Any source about w -> u and y -> i in the Penang Hokkien section?

Most source that I have are written 我 as [wa], include myself pronounce as it is. Any reference that you change to [ua]? Caferatte89 (talk) 14:03, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For example, Luc de Gijzel's Penang Hokkien dictionary.

I agree that many sources write 我 as "wa", and in hindsight I should have added something to that effect when I edited the page. However, in the phonology section of the article, it doesn't matter what people write (even if "wa" has become a de facto standard romanisation). I'm intrigued by the fact that you say you *pronounce* it as "wa" -- what would the difference be between "wa" and "ua"? 我 is the only word I have seen romanized with a "w" when people are mostly following POJ or Tailo. Looking across languages, it would be very unusual for a certain sound only to be used in a single word, and even more unusual for that word to be a pronoun (pronouns often use a more limited set of sounds than in the language as a whole -- for example, the change from "gua" to "ua" is not at all unusual for a pronoun). In Tan Siew Imm's Penang Hokkien dictionary (the largest dictionary I'm aware of), this is the only word written with <w> -- but <w> is not even given in the list of consonants at the beginning of the dictionary, which leads me to suspect this is an orthographic issue, rather than a phonological one.

If the contrast between "wa" and "ua" is supposed to be a glottal stop, I just posted some discussion on Wiktionary, which might be relevant here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:%E6%B2%99%E5%A4%AE

If you know of other references for Penang Hokkien phonology, I would be interested to see them. I would be quite happy to revert my changes, if I was too hasty! I was just trying to clean up the phonological description, which may not perfectly match any particular romanisation. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 17:14, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

An additional reference with audio recordings is Timothy Tye's dictionary, which states that "wah4" (我) and "ua4" (倚) are homophones. I wouldn't propose using Tye's orthography in the article, but this would suggest that both words have the same pronunciation, which can be transcribed as "oá" in POJ or "uá" in Taî-lô. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 15:13, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Postcard with image of African woman

Thanks for your off-wiki messages pointing me to the discussions at Talk:Slavery in Libya and c:Commons:Deletion requests/File:Italian Postcard 1937 - "Costumi Africani" (Cyrenaica).jpg, and thanks for letting me move this discussion on-wiki for future editors' edification. I have read both discussions and can't bring myself to advocate for either side of the debate. Here's why:

If I understand your argument correctly, your rationale is that this photograph should be deleted from Commons because it is exploitative and intrusive, because (1) the woman is topless and (2) she is reportedly a slave.
I see your point that some readers may find this image "titillating" because the woman's breasts are exposed, but my experience with sub-Saharan African culture is that exposed women's breasts are not considered obscene by default. (Exposed thighs are considered more sexually explicit - the opposite of European standards.) I understand that this photograph is intended for an Italian or Libyan readership, rather than a sub-Saharan audience, but I think it is relevant to look at a broader cultural perspective, and I personally do not find the image sexually provocative. Hence I don't endorse the reasoning that the photograph is intrusive because the woman is topless.
There is some debate over whether the woman is a slave. That gives two possibilities:
- Either: She is not a slave and is actually an actress posing for the photograph, or otherwise a free woman in a public place. In that case, the unreasonable intrusion argument does not apply.
- Or: She is indeed a slave or some other form of compelled labour. In that case, the photograph may have educational value in the context of illustrating topics about compelled labour. I agree with User:Rhododendrites that there is currently no specific Commons policy about media depicting / created using forced labour, and we ought to have a Wikimedia-wide discussion about this issue.

Hence I don't see a strong argument to remove this image from public circulation. I'm afraid the copyright argument you tried to advance in your deletion request was invalid: since the law you cited was from 1968, it could not have applied to an image published in 1937. Commons policy is notoriously copyright-restrictive, but otherwise utterly uncensored.

That said, the uncertainty around whether the woman was actually a slave, means that I see why we should be cautious about what we use the photograph to illustrate. I think you have made a valid editorial decision to remove the photograph from a few articles where you deemed it bad taste to use the photograph in those contexts, and am not prepared to defend the inclusion of the photograph on those articles either. Let me know what new arguments come up if there is a follow-up discussion. --Deryck C. 18:37, 23 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Deryck Chan: Thanks for taking the time to think about the issue and write such a thorough message! It is great to hear another opinion. There is a lot to agree with here. I am overall less certain that the image should be deleted from the Commons, and so I have not raised an appeal for the deletion request. In particular, I can see that the image speaks to the demand for pornographic postcards (pornographic in an Italian context -- I agree that attitudes vary cross-culturally), speaks to the use of forced labour in supplying that demand (assuming it is genuine), and possibly speaks to the fetishisation of "exotic" "slave girls". However, I don't think these possible educational uses (which would need careful exposition to make the point clear) are relevant for the article on slavery in Libya. Thanks again for taking the time to comment! Freelance Intellectual (talk) 11:14, 1 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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