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Welcome to Wikipedia!

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Hello, Mutaeditor, and welcome to Wikipedia!

An edit that you recently made seemed to be a test and has been removed. If you want more practice editing, please use the sandbox.

Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

You may also want to take the Wikipedia Adventure, an interactive tour that will help you learn the basics of editing Wikipedia. You can visit the Teahouse to ask questions or seek help.

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask for help on your talk page, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Drmies (talk) 01:44, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

August 2021

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Information icon Hello. This is a message to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions, such as the edit you made to Tenor horn, did not appear to be constructive and have been reverted. Please take some time to familiarise yourself with our policies and guidelines. You can find information about these at our welcome page which also provides further information about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. If you only meant to make test edits, please use your sandbox for that. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you may leave a message on my talk page. The text you placed is not maybe fitting for an encyclopedia. You can find info at Wikipedia:Manual of Style. The placement of the text was not ideal. Galebazz (talk) 16:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop your disruptive editing.

If you continue to disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Tenor horn, you may be blocked from editing. Galebazz (talk) 16:01, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Information icon Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be repeatedly reverting or undoing other editors' contributions at Tenor horn. Although this may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is known as "edit warring" and is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, as it often creates animosity between editors. Instead of reverting, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.

If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to lose their editing privileges on that page. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, and violating the three-revert rule is very likely to result in loss of your editing privileges.

Here is a more formal and perhaps more thorough warning about edit-warring and our 3RR rule. I am sorry to bombard you with information but I hope that this is clearer, as well as forming a more "official" part of how things work here. Thanks! DBaK (talk) 19:43, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Language variation

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Hi. Before you make any more changes to Tenor horn, please have a careful read of WP:ENGVAR which explains how Wikipedia accommodates language variations. Your statement There is no such thing as “tenor horn” in E-flat is simply untrue in the UK amongst other places and in the tone of voice of the whole article, which deals quite neatly with the varying names of the instrument we are discussing. We know there is a problem with names for these instruments inter alia; we get it; it is a pain in the arse but we try to work together to make it make sense. Edit-warring to try to impose your preferred version is a very, very bad idea: you would do much better to go to the article's Talk page and start a discussion, trying to build consensus for changes that you would like. But, seriously, please don't just make the same changes yet again - we have rules which make it a very unwise approach for you. Thanks and best wishes DBaK (talk) 19:39, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

From XLinkBot, an automatic system

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Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Tenor horn has been reverted.
Your edit here to Tenor horn was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline. The external link(s) you added or changed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q) is/are on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. If the external link you inserted or changed was to a media file (e.g. music or video) on an external server, then note that linking to such files may be subject to Wikipedia's copyright policy, as well as other parts of our external links guideline. If the information you linked to is indeed in violation of copyright, then such information should not be linked to. Please consider using our upload facility to upload a suitable media file, or consider linking to the original.
If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 20:27, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My contribution to article Tenor Horn is being continuously erased

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Dear Coordinators,

I agree that my first few attempts to edit a section in the site named "Tenor Horn" were disruptive, due to my indignation. But after I read your alerts to me, I crafted my last version which is pasted below. It too was erased, which implies that no matter what I post on the theme of Tenor Horn, they will keep erasing it, because someone is irritated with the fact that I am expressing a different opinion. Freedom of expression can always be suppressed under the pretext of "offensive language". Please, tell me what is disruptive or offensive in the paragraph below:

"The tenor horn (It. Corno di tenore; Ger. Bassflugelhorn) – it is an instrument in B-flat. Tenors and baritones are alike, they are both in B-flat, have the same range, and may substitute for each other. The difference lies in the slightly larger bore of the baritone, which also affects the timbre. The tenor horn shall not be confused with an alto horn (It. Flicorno alto; Ger. Althorn), which is in E-flat and much smaller in size. The latter corresponds to the French horn in E-flat, still traditionally used on some European wind orchestras. To summarize, the tenor and baritone horns correspond to the tenor/baritone voice in the choir, while the alto horn corresponds to the alto voice. A short informative video from the Prince Regent’s Band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q"

Off record, it is truly astounding that a musician should confuse the alto horn with the tenor horn. These are two quite different instruments in key, size and function, and it is only in the US where the Alto horn is called "a Tenor horn" due to a deep confusion, unverified practical use in scores, etc. The truth shall be learned quickly from the source where these instruments came (Europe) as well as from numerous older and current scores for wind orchestras. As soon as you open a score for a fairly good size orchestra (German, Russian, British, Eastern European, etc.), you will see "Tenors in Si-bemol (B-flat) written in it. The German term for Tenor horn is not "Althorn" as wrongly claimed in the Wikipedia, but "Bassflugelhorn", and the Italian term is "Corno di tenore". On the other hand, the "Althorn" is in E-flat, fairly smaller in size and corresponds to the French horn in function. Indeed, there is no such thing as "tenor horn in E-flat" and this term is a real shame; it does not do justice to Wikipedia but is a solid blow on its reputation. If you do not believe me, make a thorough investigation by opening scores and talking to European and British musicians who play those instruments, and/or conduct wind orchestras.

Thanks for your attention. I wish you well, and I look forward to hearing from you. I hope you will allow the officially quoted passage in the beginning to be inserted into the Tenor horn article. If not, I wish you well, and I will know better about your attitude to "freedom of expression". For some people this freedom evaporates at the moment they feel "offended' on behalf of a precious belief or theoretical concept. But the truth shall become known sooner or later.

Best regards,

Mutaeditor

Thanks for your input. Please, notice that I did no refer only to German sources; watch the British video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q and also open any German, British, Russian or Eastern European score for a large or middle size wind orchestra. The only tenor horn that you will see will be in B-flat. No, do not attribute the deep confusion that American musicians experience to the difference between British English and American English or any other language or terminology. Germans call the Tenor horn a "Bass flugelhorn" which means, a flugelhorn that is an octave below the normal flugelhorn in B-flat (equivalent to the trumpet and cornet in B-flat). Wikipedia is inadvertently spreading a lie by claiming that the German term for Tenor horn is "Althorn", while it is "Bass flugelhorn". For more than a century, tens of of thousands of scores incorporate "Tenors in Si bemol" (Tenor horns in B-flat) and it is ridiculous for someone to dig his head in the sand and cry "there is no such thing, no, the tenor is in E-flat, I was told so!" Just look at the real music and listen to those numerous pieces, look at the instruments which correspond and their names. There is no tenor horn in E-flat; it is an alto horn, and no European musician will ever confuse these two instruments. The only existing tenor horn is in B-flat, looks like the baritone, has the same range and can substitute for the baritone. But that is not all. It is very likely that when Americans compare a baritone to an euphonium, they actually mean a tenor versus a baritone. Because "euphonium" is the American name for a baritone in Europe. Thus, some people have gotten it all wrong; they call the alto horn a tenor horn; they call the tenor horn a baritone, and finally, they assume there is a difference between a baritone and an euphonium. Just open any European score in the period 1890-1990. If you ever find a label "tenor horn in E-flat" I will totally revise my opinion. My thoughts do not solve the problem of my article being erased by people who cannot stand a different opinion. But as I said, the facts are more important, and real music is the facts.

Best regards, Mutaeditor

It's unclear whom you are addressing here, but as you have been advised more than once, this might all be best dealt with at the article's Talk page. This is at Talk:Tenor horn. For the record, I think you are wrong, but I am happy to go on discussing it there, for a while at least. Stuff like: truly astounding that a musician should confuse the alto horn with the tenor horn is not hugely helpful to your case so you might want to moderate your tone of voice a bit. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 16:04, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on Tenor Horn

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Mutaeditor (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2021 (UTC)Dear Editors and observers.[reply]

I began a discussion on the talk page of Tenor horn a few days ago, after the last version of my editing was rejected, but the comments of my opponents disappeared. While I already recognized the disruptive character of my first edition on the article of Tenor Horn, I never got the chance to post an edition that was to the liking of the unknown supervisor. This rouses a big doubt in the capacity of Wikipedia to provide freedom of speech. I am pasting below my last edition with no changes, so that you realize there is nothing disruptive. I am officially requesting unbiased opinions on this topic from third parties who desirably have looked at European wind orchestra scores. A typical score for a large of middle orchestra will contain parts for Tenor Horns in B-flat: Tenor I, II and III. Indeed, there is no such thing as "tenor horn in E-flat"; rather, there is a massive confusion of the Tenor horn with the Alto horn, and this confusion has taken the form of an officially posted article. If any of the arbiters were able to show me an example of a European score containing "Tenor Horn in E-flat", I will recognize that this misunderstanding may be due to a lack of agreement in standards, lack of exact nomenclature, etc. I am afraid, however, that no European musician will ever confuse the Tenor horn with an Alto horn. Wikipedia inadvertently is spreading false information. The German name for Tenor horn is not an "Althorn", as they claim officially in the headline, but either "Bass-Flugelhorn" or "Tenorhorn". Furthermore, during my long years of professional musical experience in the US, I realized that my colleagues called the Tenor horn "a Baritone", and eventually it dawned on me that there was an official shifting of terminology in the US concerning the saxhorn family of instruments; for example, the Alto horn is called "a Tenor horn", the Tenor horn - "a Baritone", and the Baritone - "an Euphonium". However, "Euphonium" is the other name for "Baritone" in Europe... Certainly, there is a difference between the tenor and the baritone (euphonium); while they are both in B-flat and have the same range, the baritone (euphonium) has a larger bore and a deeper timbre than the tenor. There is an unfortunate video made by someone who is holding a tenor horn and is calling it "a baritone", maybe because the manufacturer has stamped that name on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN6AOMnXF_w

Here is my last post that was rejected:

The tenor horn (It. Corno di tenore; Ger. Bassflugelhorn) – it is an instrument in B-flat. Tenors and baritones are alike, they are both in B-flat, have the same range, and may substitute for each other. The difference lies in the slightly larger bore of the baritone, which also affects the timbre. The tenor horn shall not be confused with an alto horn (It. Flicorno alto; Ger. Althorn), which is in E-flat and smaller in size. The latter corresponds to the French horn in E-flat, still traditionally used on some European wind orchestras. To summarize, the tenor and baritone horns correspond to the tenor/baritone voice in the choir, while the alto horn corresponds to the alto voice. A short informative video from the Prince Regent’s Band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q mutaeditor, 29 August, 2021Mutaeditor (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again. For the reasons explained to you in Redrose64's edit summary, this is not an RfC. The account you give in your first sentence, starting I began a discussion ... does not seem to me to be very accurate, but I am not sure that that really matters right now. I can only respectfully reiterate that, as you have been advised more than once, this might would all be best dealt with at the article's Talk page at Talk:Tenor horn, where you have never yet edited. For the record, I do think that you are wrong, but I am happy to go on discussing it there, for a short while at least. Stuff like: truly astounding that a musician should confuse the alto horn with the tenor horn and Wikipedia inadvertently is spreading false information is not hugely helpful to your case so you might want to moderate your tone of voice a bit. Indeed, rather than immediately trying to put the world to rights in one edit, you might well benefit from doing some more gentle and less contentious editing to other articles that interest you while you get a feel for how this place works and how to edit successfully. Having tried to engage with you here and at the Teahouse I don't really want to keep on in those places unless it seems for some reason important to, but maybe we can really discuss it, nicely, at Talk:Tenor horn. With my best wishes DBaK (talk) 13:23, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Talk: Tenor Horn

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Dear Dbak,

Thank you for your input, I appreciate your kindness. However, when you speak of my tone of expression, I think you are confusing my personal complaints on the talk page with my last official edit of the Tenor horn article. I kindly invite you to look again at this edit (below tis letter) and tell me in what way do you consider my tone unacceptable? On the other hand, if you imply that I do not even have the right to express my opinion more freely on the talk page by stating that "Wikipedia is spreading false information inadvertently", I wonder what your sense of freedom of speech is, then? If I really believe in what I said about Wikipedia, how do you want me to paraphrase that in a more elegant way? Just let me know and I will do it. But are we not going too far in our attempts to "moderate" a debate, not seeing the line between a civilized debate and breaking someone's style and temperament in the process of expressing himself? Are we not too sensitive, are we not looking for occasions to feel offended on behalf of a belief or a theoretical concept? Please, take a look at the essays of A. Schoenberg, and you will be appalled with the freedom of criticism he allows himself; yet his writings have been published, and no one suffered the consequences.

Please, try to understand me; I really appreciate your kindness and your attempt to calm down a situation and to conduct a civilized debate. With all due respect, I kindly suggest that these noble attempts on your part do not turn into a habit of constantly extracting a phrase or sentence from someone's written arguments and suggesting that "these do not help your case". I hope you understand, that this kind of approach does not necessarily constitute an argument, but represents a kind of "gentle intimidation", trimming one's personal style and temperament in the name of a "civilized discussion". Here is my last edit again, I am curious to hear your opinion about it, in what sense is the tone below unacceptable?18:55, 30 August 2021 (UTC)18:55, 30 August 2021 (UTC)~~

The tenor horn (It. Corno di tenore; Ger. Bassflugelhorn) – it is an instrument in B-flat. Tenors and baritones are alike, they are both in B-flat, have the same range, and may substitute for each other. The difference lies in the slightly larger bore of the baritone, which also affects the timbre. The tenor horn shall not be confused with an alto horn (It. Flicorno alto; Ger. Althorn), which is in E-flat and smaller in size. The latter corresponds to the French horn in E-flat, still traditionally used on some European wind orchestras. To summarize, the tenor and baritone horns correspond to the tenor/baritone voice in the choir, while the alto horn corresponds to the alto voice. A short informative video from the Prince Regent’s Band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78qCc9xk18Q mutaeditor, 29 August, 2021Mutaeditor (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Mutaeditor, 30 August, 2021Mutaeditor (talk) 18:55, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for taking it to Talk:Tenor horn. Best wishes DBaK (talk) 10:46, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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