User talk:PertinaxII
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Euchre and Jucker
[edit]Hi PertinaxII, thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. I've added to your edits on Jucker with further information from the sources. I agree that Jucker is the most likely origin of Euchre and am hoping to uncover Jucker sources that predate the earliest mentions of Euchre in order to bolster the evidence. Your recent edits to Euchre added some useful material and removed some errors or padding, but unfortunately also removed a lot of cited material. Rather than try and unpick that I've restored the Euchre article to the point before your edits and then added back some of your new material and repeated some of your deletions, but without deleting valid text. I've also updated it in the light of new sources. I'm very happy to discuss any points of contention on the two talk pages. Cheers. Bermicourt (talk) 14:36, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
- np it's a process, fighting entropy. I was looking at the articles today and I think they're much better than back in November, and cover most of what I think is relevant, and hopefully are more stable. I didn't mean to delete anything important, just cut out waffle and put one idea in each paragraph to make it clearer and more concise, and let people make up their own minds. Though I will still argue that a debate about Euchre, whether cited or not doesn't belong in the Jucker/Juckerspiel article, but in Euchre. And there should just be a statement that Euchre is referred to in 1810 in the US with a link to the history of Euchre,and the citation, which was how I left it.
- Also Ombre is not an early form of Euchre. Euchre is one of many Triomphe derivatives that adopted Ombre's simple bidding ideas to replace flipping a card for trumps. They also spread into Boston Whist, Vint and other Russian Whist variants, Austrian Preference (probably the first complete competitive bidding system) which along with Euchre seems to have influenced Cutthroat 500. The Whist family didn't get a playable competitive bidding system till Royal Auction Whist in 1920, and the final one till 1935.
- Personally I find David Parlett's work convincing, card games are form of folklore and he has used available sources, and comparison of rules and linguistics build a solid case for his work. Juckerspiel, Jucker, Ukre and Euchre are clearly games with very similar rules and similar German terminology. Bauers are clearly from that region and reflect the Under Vizier from Arabic packs. It is much more likely the evolved from Triomphe like games in Alsace and followed immigration to France, the US and England. A claim that it was invented in the US Mid-West by an unnamed German farmer's daughter from French and German ideas then spread to remote illiterate rural parts of Germany before 1792. That may be cited but it's a citation to an admitted supposition by Hoyle, a US card and book publiher from French and German ideas then spread to remote illiterate rural parts of Germany before 1792. That may be cited but it's a citation to an admitted supposition by Hoyle, a US card and book publishing empire that has no evidence support it. Though I will concede it is unlikely the you can convince Americans of any sensible idea these days. Even though Modern scholarship, with digital archives making sources globally available, and linguistic and cultural knowledge is much more thorough than suppositions by historical authorities like Hoyle and Cavendish.
- The German/Swiss Alps are also the home of Karnoffel which is the like alternate source for trumps (but not a regular trump suit) in trick taking games including Tarot which survived into the 20th Century, in competition with Triumph/Triomphe/Ombre family games further to the West. PertinaxII (talk) 03:31, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- Entropy - that's a good word to describe what happens to Wikipedia over time! Meanwhile, I've given the Euchre text its own section in the Juckerspiel article. You're right, it could be reduced, but my sense is we should do that once the history section of the Euchre article is mature enough and stable. The Juckerspiel article doesn't tend to get tinkered with, so it's a good place to park an accurate summary. And of course it's one thing that Juckerspiel is notable for.
- I agree that the statement in the Euchre article about Ombre being ancestral is wrong. It's not in Parlett's book and so I've removed it. That does leave the paragraph about the Cornish theory devoid of a source, but I have seen it somewhere, so it's best left in for now. Certainly there is some research to be done about how Euchre ended up as the national game of Cornwall.
- I think it's worth mentioning these alternative theories because they do appear in the literature and, if we don't, someone will come along and add them as if it's a new discovery that trumps the others. The way the Euchre article is written, it favours Parlett's theory which, having researched it further, I'm now convinced is the most likely. I'd like to do more research to link up Jucker with Bauer(n) but the latter word is so common that it's not easy.
- Karnöffel is a pre-trump game. Trumps were invented with the tarot pack around 1420 in the Milan area, but rapidly spread to games played with ordinary packs. Karnöffel developed separately and introduced the idea of the selected or chosen suit. The latter is not a true trump suit because its cards do not have uniform powers. Instead they vary widely from 'full' powers to 'partial' to nothing. See e.g. Frisian Knüffeln or Bruus, both of which I was fortunate enough to play back in 2020 with local players before Covid struck. Cheers. Bermicourt (talk) 09:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
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