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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 7 October 2020 [1].

1940 Mandatory Palestine v Lebanon football match

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Nominator(s): Nehme1499 (talk) 17:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Following a substantial peer review, and having already brought the article to GA, I'm looking to nominate this page to FA. The article is about an association football friendly match in 1940 between the Lebanon national team, and the Mandatory Palestine national team (the precursor to today's Israel national team). With this year marking the 80th anniversary of the match, I thought it was a good idea to push for a FA nomination. I'm open to any comments and improvements, so just let me know if anything needs to be changed! Nehme1499 (talk) 17:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Kosack

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This is what I picked out on an initial run through. Something to get you started. Kosack (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kosack: Thanks for your comments. I've amended some of the issues you pointed out (and commented on the rest). Nehme1499 (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A few more minor points

  • "located on the banks of the Yarkon River estuary", might be worth adding "in Tel Aviv" at the end here.
  • "with their own football boots", I wouldn't think there was anything unusual about a player arriving with his own football boots, especially in the 1940s, unless I'm missing some context behind this?
  • "coach at the time, was spending time", the double use of time is a little repetitive here.
  • The Post-match section has a lot of repetition of first names. Generally, first names are not needed after the first mention. Kosack (talk) 09:19, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kosack: Should have taken care of everything. Nehme1499 (talk) 16:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Last points

  • "Mandatory Palestine scored in the first minute of the game", the rest of the article has the goal being scored in the second minute.
  • "Shalom Shalomzon was the only player of the game to make an appearance for Israel", I realise that Lebanon didn't play another game for 13 years, so it's kind of obvious that none of their players would have won another cup, but I would change the sentence to something like "make another international appearance, playing for Israel..." Just to emphasise the point of him being the only one in the entire game to do so.
  • Link United States to their national side.

A few more minor points from the additions made. I think this is probably about it for me then. Kosack (talk) 07:55, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kosack and Nehme1499: Went ahead and fixed those points up (mostly because I'm bored in quarantine). --SuperJew (talk) 08:11, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd hope for a user more versed in the nitty gritty of copyediting to go over this as well but, in terms of content and structure, I'm happy to support this. Kosack (talk) 11:35, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@SuperJew and Kosack: Thanks for taking care of those points! Note that Camille Cordahi may have played in the 1950s for Lebanon (I'm still investigating); he played until the mid 1960s aged 40+, so it's not improbable that he may have played in 1953 (aged 34-ish). I've slightly amended the sentence. Nehme1499 (talk) 13:52, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Govvy

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It's a good article at GA and feel it is a good point to get too, however I feel there are far to many red-links for FA. That's a major red-flag in my opinion towards FA. Govvy (talk) 21:51, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy: If I were to create the 14 pages of Palestinian players who took part in the game, would you say that the article would be in a good position for FA? Nehme1499 (talk) 22:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe there needs to be delinking. Govvy (talk) 22:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: All those players (bar one on the bench) satisfy WP:NFOOTY, so they are eligible for an article (also the referee, who officiated a FIFA match, satisfies NFOOTY). Nehme1499 (talk) 22:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Although it is a lot of work I suggest it would be wise to sort that out in order to support the promotion of this to FA in my opinion as an FA article shouldn't have vast amount of red-links. Govvy (talk) 22:27, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: Out of interest, which of the four Featured article criteria do you feel the article fails due to those red links? Harrias talk 09:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Harrias: Well, I've only ever helped get History of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. but to your question, 1-b, a red-link to me means we don't have that information. And an FA article should be comprehensive which in my view should have all the information. I would assume that also in-view will refer to not just the article in question, but also have content covered by the linked in articles. So yes, red-links can be viewed under 1-b. And as you can see, there are rather a lot of them at present. Govvy (talk) 09:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias, also, do you think it's appropriate to have a red-link in the lead for an article to be displayed on the front page of wikipedia? Govvy (talk) 09:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, per MOS:REDLINK: "red links have been found to be a driving force that encourage contributions". I disagree on your interpretation of 1b, but that's part of the joy of collaborative projects such as Wikipedia! Harrias talk 09:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is where we disagree, red-links are good for encouraging to create articles, yes, however for the top articles, FA ones. I feel it's bad form for an FA to have a mass quantity of red-links, I see todays article has two red-links, I don't consider that too bad. But I don't think it should be encouraged, it should be limited down and the opening paragraphs should defiantly not have any. That's my two cents! Govvy (talk) 10:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: I should have taken care of the red links (there are only four remaining). Thoughts? Nehme1499 (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's looks much better, I had another read through.

  • No official coach was appointed as Egon Pollak, Mandatory Palestine's coach at the time, was spending time in Australia. This sentence doesn't seem to read quite right.
  • In the summary Indeed, in the 60th minute Kaspi scored his second goal of the game. Do you need the word indeed there?
  • In the post-match summary "[t]he goals that did get past him would have beaten any custodian" Does the T, need to be in brackets? I don't see that in the source provided.

Regards Govvy (talk) 11:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy: I've also added a couple of sentences regarding the wind during the match, and Mizrahi's saves in the first half. Nehme1499 (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nehme1499: It's looking and reading a lot better, my only qualm is the "indeed" and then you have it written again a sentence later. Other than that, I think the article is on the right track. Govvy (talk) 14:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: I've removed the two "Indeed"s. Nehme1499 (talk) 14:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Kaiser matias

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I'll add a few comments. Apologies if they've been covered before:

  • "...the latter's first-ever official international match, and the former's last..." Curious why you went in this order ("latter" then "former"). I feel it would be more logical to go the opposite, but that's just my opinion, and not something I'll hold against the article. I also see that later on it notes Lebanon only (if I understand correctly) played clubs before, which I understand wouldn't be international matches anyways.
  • "...Lebanese forward Camille Cordahi scored to become Lebanon's first official international goalscorer." Again, I feel the "official" is a redundant word. It's clear already this is Lebanon's first official match, so no need to repeat it. It comes up again later in the article, too.
  • " Shalom Shalomzon was the only Mandatory Palestine player of the game..." Again, I find the "of the game" part to not be necessary; the context of the article suggests Shalomzon was in the game.
  • " Sawaya had friendly relations with several presidents of Palestinian football clubs, especially with the president of the Palestine Football Association." You don't happen to have the name of the PFA president? It would be good to have it here if so.
  • "They were told that each player had to go to the locker room at the stadium on their own. The players did not train for the game and, in the small dressing room, only 14 received the light-blue-and-white kit." Two things here: am I correct in understanding that the players had to go "on their own" meant there wasn't a team bus or something? And it says "only 14", but out of how many?
    • A source said 18 players were called up. Unfortunately, I can't find it anymore (probably it's one of the Hebrew newspaper scans, so it's impossible for me to find it). I'll remove the "only". As for the rest: yes, "on their own" would imply not going together in some sort of bus. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Arthur Baar, an Austrian football coach, was in charge of selecting the team, sending out the call-ups to the players. Baar became the de facto coach as Egon Pollak, Mandatory Palestine's coach at that point, was spending time in Australia." I would move the mention of Mandatory Palestine up, as it is not clear at first who Baar is coaching. Something like "Arthur Baar, an Austrian football coach, was in charge of selecting the Mandatory Palestine team, sending out the call-ups to the players. Baar became the de facto coach as Egon Pollak, the team's coach at that point, was spending time in Australia."
  • The date of the match (27 April 1940) is repeated twice within three paragraphs. I see the point of doing so, but feel it is a little repetitive. As it was noted in the background section, I'd think you could remove the mention in the match section without hurting the flow, updating the wording of the following sentence: "The match was Lebanon's first official game..."
  • "The match was played in Tel Aviv at the Maccabiah Stadium, which was decorated with the flags of both nations; around 10,000 spectators came to watch, many of whom were British." Again the stadium had been mentioned previously, so doesn't need to be said again. To simplify I'd say something like: "The stadium was decorated with flags of both nations, and around 10,000 spectators came to watch, many of whom were British."
  • "In the first half, Mandatory Palestine played against the wind." Does it mention the strength of the wind at all? Seems that if it was noted there would be some idea of how important that detail is.
    • I don't think so (Hebrew book/newspaper scan, so I needed @SuperJew and Eranrabl's help). The idea is that, despite playing against the wind, Mandatory Palestine played better in the first half; same for Lebanon, they played better in the second half even though they played against the wind. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • To support Nehme1499's point, the source doesn't mention the strength of the wind, only it's direction. As I wrote on my talk page: Regarding the wind, Haaretz says that in the first half Eretz Israel played against the wind (נבחרת ארץ ישראל משחקת בתחלה נגד הרוח), and in the second half with the wind but that despite that there felt there was a recuperation by Lebanon (עתה משחקת נבחרת ארץ-ישראל עם הרוח, ובכל זאת מורגשת התאוששות אצל הלבנונים). --SuperJew (talk) 04:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mizrahi was especially praised for his two saves in the 18th and 23rd minute." Who did the praising here?
    • Eranrabl said: "The article also states that the two stops made on the 18th and 23rd minutes were "Hard shots" and that the crowd cheered those stops". I changed it to "...was especially cheered by the crowd for his two saves..." Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mandatory Palestine regained control of the game later in the first half and, in the 31st minute, Gaul Machlis scored Mandatory Palestine's third goal." These commas seem unnecessary; I'd just delete them and let the sentence flow like that.
  • "The match was Lebanon's first official international, and their first official defeat. Mandatory Palestine's win was their first (and only) in an official match before they became the Israel national team after 1948." Like noted above, this repeats "official" a lot. I'd try and simplify it: "The match was Lebanon's first international, and their first defeat. Mandatory Palestine's win was their first, and only, in a match before they became the Israel national team after 1948."
  • "With his two goals, captain Werner Kaspi became the first player of the Israel national team (Mandatory Palestine's successor) to score a brace." It notes later that Kaspi never played for Israel, so is is accurate to say he was the first on the Israel national team to do this?
    • As FIFA recognizes a succession between M. Palestine and Israel, all of MP's records stand for Israel as well (as is the case with, for e.g., Macedonia and North Macedonia, or West Germany and Germany). Therefore, Kaspi scoring a brace statistically counts for Israel as well. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Regarding Palestine's 12 players involved, the match was the only cap for eight..." MOS:NUMNOTES says that you should be consistent with the numbers, either spelled out or in numerals, but not a mix. While either are good here, I'd lean towards numerals myself.

That's all from me. I will note that I'm coming from this as a Canadian with a more casual understanding of the sport (so not much on the specific jargon). Kaiser matias (talk) 22:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kaiser matias: I should be done. Let me know if there is more. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Everything I saw has been addressed, and I'm happy with the explanations above. Happy to support, well done. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

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I've added this to the image and source reviews requests list for same. --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:50, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - Pass

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Source review - Pass

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Biblio

Refs

Spotchecks
  • 7 and 8 (a and b) are good
  • 10: a, b, c (I'm assuming Jaroudi is just spelled with a Y here), e, f are good
  • 10: d I find somewhat questionable. I recognize that the essecense of the statement is true but the paper doesn't use words like "efficiently" (although correct me if I'm wrong), maybe tweak to "They praised the Mandatory Palestine team's performance, but noted that the two full..."
  • 15 and 18 are good – I could only check English language sources. Aza24 (talk) 18:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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