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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:40, 14 April 2009 [1].

Capture of Fort Ticonderoga

[edit]
Nominator(s): Magic♪piano

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it to satisfy the requirements for FA. However, this is my first submission, so I might just be wrong. The main event took place May 10, 1775; it would nice to make FA before then. Thank you for your consideration and feedback. Magic♪piano 02:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I'm a bit uncomfortable with "It also involved two larger-than-life personalities in Allen and Arnold, who, each seeking to gain as much credit and honor as possible for the actions taken, engaged in a war of words and politics that still echoes today", especially in the lead, as there's no evidence presented anywhere in the article for this being the case. The War of Words section does say "As a consequence of this war of words, histories and biographies sometimes contain conclusions and observations that reflect the author's preferred subject", but gives only two examples, one of which is over 100 years old. I've no reason to doubt it, but if this academic dispute is the main legacy of the incident (as the article seems to suggest), it needs to be sourced that the dispute is still ongoing. – iridescent 12:56, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I had actually hoped to find a good instance of a more recent Allen bio that shows a more overt bias, but haven't had any luck yet. This is one reason why I characterized the war of words as "echoing" -- there's not much left to it, as most biographies and histories are now somewhat more evenhanded, as later research has punctured Allen's self-promotion and somewhat rehabilitated Arnold's reputation.
One question of clarification: are you also objecting that the phrase "larger-than-life personalities" is not adequately addressed (by their respective behaviors)? I could deal with that more explicitly, but I'd have to bring in more biographic details than I thought were appropriate for this article. (I could also moderate the language, using something like "brash" or "bold" instead of "larger-than-life".) Magic♪piano 13:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not entirely sure if this is a "you need to cite that the sky is blue" situation. Growing up in upstate NY, the history of the American Revolution I was taught was along the lines of "Saratoga, Ticonderoga, and a bunch of Virginians but they owned slaves", so it's hard to assess it objectively as I'm too familiar with their personalities. I personally don't think it needs to be cited – "self-appointed military leader" by definition implies a larger-than-life personality as far as I'm concerned – but someone with less knowledge of the figures involved would probably be better placed to comment. (Note: don't read anything I've said as an oppose, just an observation). – iridescent 15:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tech. Review
  • Based on the respective checker tools in the toolbox, the dabs and external links of the article are found up to speed.
  • Ref formatting is not found up to speed (based on WP:REFTOOLS script)
  • The following refs (coding pasted below) are duplicated and appear more than once in the ref section, a ref name should be used instead
  • [[#Chittenden|Chittenden]], p. 109
  • [[#Randall|Randall]], p. 104
  • [[#Bellesiles|Bellesiles]], p. 117
  • [[#Randall|Randall]], p. 86
  • [[#Bellesiles|Bellesiles]], p. 116
  • The following ref names are used more than once to name different refs, when they should only be naming one ref
Well, the refs did not actually appear more than once in the refs section, as a visual inspection of the article would have made clear. In any event, I have removed the duplicated reference texts. Magic♪piano 16:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All of the refs have either an OCLC or ISBN. I've not routinely been adding publication locations since (some time ago) I didn't think they were displayed; I may have just done it wrong. I will take care of this in due course. Magic♪piano 13:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • General Comments

In general, the article looks great. But I think it could use a copyediting round and a few small-to-moderate changes. There are a number of times when I think a little too much information was crammed into unnecessarily complex sentences. These could be simplified and broken apart into multiple sentences with events placed in chronological order. For example, the only casualties of the operation are mentioned in this sentence: "Allen, after penning a message for the merchant to deliver to the citizens of Montreal, returned to Ticonderoga on the 21st, having left Saint-Jean just as the British forces arrived, and having lost three men in skirmishes." The fact that Arnold spent his own money to capture the fort is in this sentence: "When they arrived on June 22 and made it clear to Arnold that he was to serve under Hinman, he, after considering for two days, disbanded his command, resigned his commission, and went home, having spent more than £1,000 of his own money in the effort to capture the fort." Specific comments are below. Flying Jazz (talk) 18:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have a bad habit of making sentences long and complicated, something I'm trying to stop, if only I could find the period key, which sometimes seems harder than it should be. Fixed, I hope.
  • Intro Comments
  • The consequences of the action are discussed in two places: in the final sentence of the first paragraph and again at the end of the first sentence of the third paragraph. Are tactical consequences separated from strategic ones? Consider placing all the important consequences at the end of the first paragraph.
  • In the third paragraph, the capture is described as a "relatively minor military action" of "significant strategic importance." On the surface, I don't think both can be true. Some clarification is needed about the term "minor" in this text or it should just be removed. The numbers of the forces involved speak for themselves.
Reply The action was minor in scale (small number of forces), but significant in effect. I'll try to find words to clarify this. Reworded
  • I'd remove the phrase "bold effort." This doesn't seem NPOV.
Reply I'm open to suggestions. (In the MILHIST-A review, the word "risky" was rejected.) The effort clearly contained elements of daring and risk.
  • Concluding the intro with the clash of personalities between Allen and Arnold and it's impact on historiography doesn't seem appropriate for the intro to a general purpose encyclopedia. I think most readers will come here for information about the capture itself, and the lead and the article itself should focus on and conclude on the main topic.
Reply Noted. See below for discussion on the relevant section.
  • Infobox Comments
  • The image shows Allen demanding surrender from a man and woman in nightclothes. Who are they supposed to be? The text says the fort commander emerged fully dressed. Is a better image or more accurate image available? If not, more info should be given so the reader knows who is supposedly pictured and knows it's inaccurate.
Reply Short answer, no. There are a fair number of depictions from the 19th century. I believe the New York Public Library's collection is the most extensive, but there are images in other online collections as well. Most of them are essentially inaccurate in their depiction of the event. Changed label
  • Were the three casualties deaths or wounded? Were any seriously wounded?
Reply Good question. Some of my recent reading leads me to believe they may not have been casualties at all, merely left behind and forced to make their way back overland. Clarified and corrected
  • Background
  • The first two sentences jump from '75 to '58 to '63 and then back to '59. This probably doesn't have to be in perfect chronological order to get the point across, but it should jump around less.
  • The fort was "not the important fortress it once was" but was "a valuable asset." On the surface, I don't think both can be true. Some clarification is needed or the "not the important fortress" statement should be removed and maybe replaced with the statement "more like a backwoods village than a fort."
Reply I'll work on these two. Reworded
  • Capture of the Fort
  • The sentence beginning "Frustrated, he retired to the captain's quarters..." seems to refer to Arnold, but only Allen and Delaplace were mentioned in the previous sentence.
Reply I'll work on this. Reworded
  • The statement "the plan to strip the fort and send armaments to Boston was in peril." implies that this was someone's plan in May. The Fortification_of_Dorchester_Heights article says "After George Washington took command of the army outside Boston in July 1775, the idea of bringing the cannons from Ticonderoga to the siege was raised by Colonel Henry Knox....Knox went to Ticonderoga in November..." Was this plan discussed by Arnold and the Massachusetts Committee long before Washington arrived, but the specifics of the logistics were Knox's idea? Are you making a distinction between armaments and heavy cannon?
Reply The discussion with Arnold did not include any specific logistics for delivering the armaments (and I believe Arnold realized he was out of his depth in dealing with it himself). Knox did not get involved until after Washington arrived outside Boston. Added I've added words that clarify what Arnold was doing in the interval between the capture and is departure from the scene.
  • Crown Point and the raid on Fort Saint-Jean
  • "Arnold rechristened the schooner Liberty..." It would be good to have its original name.
Reply Unclear if she was formally named, but I will look through some of my sources. I can temporize by changing to "christened" if the name doesn't turn up. Original name added
  • Aftermath
  • The fort was "not at the time an important military post" but "its capture had several important results" and Lord Dartmouth wrote that its capture was "very unfortunate indeed." See comments above about the Background section and Intro where there seems to be an effort to present a dichotomy that either must be made more specific or be removed. Is there a strong opinion among historians that the British underestimated Ticonderoga's importance in 1775 while the colonists recognized its value? Did both sides recognize its importance in the French and Indian War but neither side thought it needed more resources to successfully defend or attack it? Did Dartmouth think it was a blunder that the fort had not been reinforced with more men after Lexington and Concord?
Reply This is something that probably deserves mention. Gage did in fact realize the importance of Ti, and sent instructions to Carleton to refortify the place (I believe after Lexington and Concord), but events overtook the message (Carleton got Gage's message on May 19). I don't know enough of the context around Darmouth's comment to know if he understood the implications. Added I've added words that I hope clarify the perceived importance.
  • War of words between Allen and Arnold
  • "Allen also wrote several versions of the events" may imply that the versions he wrote differed from one another in substantive ways. Did they?
Reply The differed, but I don't believe the differences were significant enough to detail. I only wanted to make clear that the writings delivered to the different bodies were not copies of the same thing.
  • The selections chosen in the last paragraph seem POV to me. Even citing a published author's POV is tricky unless some balance is given. The statement: "[Allen] is an odd figure to be revered as a revolutionary hero." may apply in most of the United States, but is it odd for modern Vermonters to revere him as a revolutionary hero? Was Wilson writing for Vermonters or for other Americans? The final paragraph seems to unfairly pit Wilson, writing in 2001 with more sympathy to Arnold than to Allen, against Hall, writing in 1895 about Allen at a time when a book with sympathy toward Arnold might have been a foolish thing for a historian to write. Except for the first sentence, this final paragraph seems to detract more from the article than it adds. Especially the final couple sentences seem to just be a critique of Hall. I think some of the information could be included in a footnote, moved to the Benedict Arnold article or removed altogether. Any action that Arnold was involved in probably has a similar historiography. I'd consider shortening this section considerably and moving it to the Aftermath section as a subsection. The article should focus on the capture from beginning to end. Flying Jazz (talk) 19:19, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reply I wasn't trying to put Hall and Wilson against each other. I was merely trying to illustrate that biases, introduced by the actors, were traceable into the histories. Arnold and Allen are both difficult subjects to write about. Some reading of mine only in the last week is causing me to rethink my appraisal of Allen with respect to this section; there seem to be credible assertions that Allen's discussions with the British skirted treason. Removed I've removed the last paragraph; I don't really buy the premise by which I constructed it anymore.
Thank you for your detailed comments; they've been a big help. I'll try to address them in the next few days. Magic♪piano 23:50, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've addressed most of the factual issues; let me know otherwise. I'll have a look at the prose tomorrow. Magic♪piano 15:34, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Prose hopefully improved. Magic♪piano 15:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review File:GreenMtBoys.jpg - I'm a bit unclear about the permissions for this. The image description says "photo by Amber Kinkaid used with permission" - where was this permission granted? Is the uploader actually Amber Kinkaid? Awadewit (talk) 06:25, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beats me. The original uploader appears to be a somewhat infrequent contributor; I'll leave a message on his/her/its talk page. If this attribution is not cleared up in a timely manner, I can substitute this image, which I don't like quite as much. (There are no obvious search results leading to further information.) Magic♪piano 13:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If I don't get an answer from the image uploader by about Thursday, I will pull the image. Magic♪piano 17:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully someday you will get a response - the original image is so much better. All image issues resolved. Awadewit (talk) 23:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral—1a. There are still opportunities to tighten the wording. Examples from the first few paras:
  • I recommend pluralizing "cannon" to "cannons"; although both are correct, the extra "s" may avoid confusion for some of our younger and/or non-native readers.
    • "Hangers-on"—it's grammatically correct, but perhaps you could use a different word? It just seems awkward to me for some reason.
    • "Cannon and other armaments captured at the fort were subsequently hauled away and used to fortify Dorchester Heights and break the stalemate at the siege of Boston." Opportunities to tighten this sentence: "captured at the fort" "subsequently hauled away" come to mind. Perhaps something along the lines of "Cannon and other captured armaments were used to fortify...."
    • "In a bold effort on May 18, Arnold and 50 men raided Fort Saint-Jean". A very nitpicky comment: you can ax "in a bold effort" and replace it with a "boldly" before "raided". It's trivial and debatable either way.
    • As User:Tony1 always points out, "While the scope..." should be "Although the scope..."
    • In the last sentence, "...for the actions taken" seems redundant.
    • The pacing and content of the lead is great, but the entire article needs a couple quick passes to ensure optimal quality. Great work! — Deckiller 04:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up 1a... I'll go through it a few more times over the next couple of days to see if I can tighten things up some more. Thanks for your feedback. Magic♪piano 17:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great. It's definitely not bad, though you may want to get another outside editor to help perform a final proofread. I also like how the lead summarizes the article without going into exhaustive detail like other FA leads. — Deckiller 17:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Query Hi Magic, that was an interesting read, but re "a number of cannons and massive artillery", in that era did artillery other than cannon exist? ϢereSpielChequers 17:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Period artillery also included howitzers and mortars. According to Henry Knox's records of what he hauled away, all of those were found at Ti. Magic♪piano 18:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, didn't know that. ϢereSpielChequers 19:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support with proviso that I now have a very small interest following my copyedit. Comments - I've just completed a minor copyedit of this excellent article but, to be honest, I found the prose generally very clear and engaging. I do have a couple of suggestions/queries, however:

  • Lead: I think we use the word 'capture' too often. I'm sure we could substitute 'took' or something else in one or two places - however in this case prefer the nominator to consider/alter rather than do it myself.
  • Colonial forces assemble: Riding furiously northward (his horse was destroyed) - if he's riding, clearly he has a horse - are we saying his own mount had been destroyed and he was riding another one?

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed on the use of "capture", I'll tune. As to the horse, perhaps it should read that the horse was subsequently destroyed. Thanks for the look! Magic♪piano 15:04, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, glad I asked about the horse, since clearly I had completely the wrong idea (it has been a long day, so I'll take some responsibility for that as well)...! Anyway, having been through it I see no reason not to support this for FA - well done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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