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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 03:34, 23 August 2015 [1].

Man Down (song)

[edit]
Nominator(s):  — Calvin999 08:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about... Rihanna's single "Man Down" from her fifth studio album, Loud. The song was a massive hit in France, and the song's accompanying music garnered much controversy due to its rape and murder theme. The article has been edited by the GOCE.  — Calvin999 08:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I will not have access to the internet between 21 July and 28 July, and will be unable to respond to any comments in this nomination for that duration of time.  — Calvin999 17:23, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Azealia911 talk 11:32, 12 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Azealia911
General
  • Both instances of ref 7 list out the full citation as opposed to one simply giving the ref name.
    • Not sure what you mean?
      • Both occurrences of the Entertainment Weekly ref list fully, like <ref name="EW">{{cite web|last=Greenblatt|first=Leah|url=http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20440920,00.html|title=Review: ''Loud''|work=[[Entertainment Weekly]]||date=November 11, 2010|accessdate=April 30, 2015}}</ref> when only one should, while the other should read as <ref name="EW"/>.
        • Ah I get what you mean now. I misinterpreted it.
  • Cover image needs an alt.
  • What's with the big shouty hidden note at the start of the infobox? Purely curious.
    • It's to stop IPs and editors removing the release date, as some believe radio release is not a form of single release
Lead / top
  • "from her fifth album, Loud (2010)" → "from her fifth studio album, Loud (2010)"
    • I agree. The GOCE removed it.
  • "The song was a hit in Europe" somewhat weasel-y perhaps? It did only peak in the top 10 in five main European country charts.
    • GOCE edit. I've re-worded it.
Live performances and covers
  • Section looks somewhat scarce, further reinforced by the large image size, I'd suggest removing the image all together, or at least cutting down the caption.
    • I've removed the image.
Credits and personnel
  • Move "Credits adapted from the liner notes of Loud, Def Jam Recordings, SRP Records.[1]" to the top of the section.
  • Do none of the locations/people in the section have articles to link?
    • If they do then they are linked in the Recording and composition section first and foremost.
Charts
  • "Yearly charts" → "Weekly charts" yearly would indicate the charts are published once a year.
    • If there was just one table for 2011, I'd agree. But I've written yearly because it has tables for 2011, 2012 and 2013
      • Yearly is defined as "happening or produced once a year or every year." which would fit the year-end charts perfectly, these are weekly produced charts, it just so happens that the song appeared in three years. I don't think people would be confused to see "weekly" and have three years listed.
        • It's yearly peaks though, so yearly is more appropriate?
  • What's the deal with two listings for Switzerland?
    • Two different language speaking regions, like Belgium.
  • Luxembourg and Portugal both link Billboard but US Hot R&B/Hip-Hop doesn't.
  • "Wallonia" and "Flanders" should be linked.
  • "Canadian Hot 100" needs to be followed with (Billboard)
  • (SNEP), (Billboard) etc should be added to the year end charts, especially considering Switzerland seemingly has two chart providers.
Certifications
  • "Certifications" → "Certifications and sales". More than one piece of info covered in section.
    • The sales are just an indication of the minium Man Down sold to in order to get the certification. The sales aren't the true sales.
  • When you sort the "Certification" column, 2× Platinum is listed first, then Gold, Gold and lastly Platinum. Either needs fixing or unsorting (preferably fixing).
    • Yeah because numerals sort first. G is before P, too. The templates are pre-coded so there's nothing wrong with how it sorts.
Radio and release history
  • Radio and release history → Release history, radio release is covered in "release history".
  • Flatlist the "format" column for the US listing.
  • Consider making a "Ref." column at the end of the table to avoid having refs all over the place.
    • Change "Ref," header to {{Tooltip|Ref.|Reference}}
See also
  • Both uses of "hits" → "singles", hits seems somewhat informal and possibly inaccurate considering a "hit" is considered a hugely successful song but as we know in this day and age, songs can hit number one without even pushing five figure sales numbers. Plus article uses "singles".
    • The Swiss article doesn't, but I've piped it.
References
  • {{Reflist|3}} → {{Reflist|30em}} per it being more browser-friendly.
  • Some inconsistencies with citation styles, a large majority of dates use MDY format, but some (Ref 1, 65, possibly more) don't, having all of them using the same layout would be nice.
    • Well they shouldn't do. My dates are always 100% consistent. GOCE must have added them in like that.

Oppose at the moment, although I imagine you'll be able to turn around my comments in no time. Azealia911 talk 23:08, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Frankie talk
Impressive, but a few comments
  • Alt text: "A black and white image of wearing wearing" – error.
  • "The song was a hit in France, topping the chart for five consecutive weeks" – not sure "hit" is encyclopedic. You can rephrase it to "The song topped the charts in France for five consecutive weeks".
  • ""Man Down" is a four-minute, 26-second electo-regga" – see WP:NUMNOTES.
  • In the image caption of Chris Brown, omit the "the" before Los Angeles Times.
  • Section 7.1 – aren't those charts "weekly"?
  • If possible, replace sources by Digital Spy. I know it's a nice one, but there might be stronger ones available. -- Frankie talk 17:51, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Wikipedian Penguin
====Comments from Wikipedian Penguin====

Conditional oppose—the prose needs a little bit more work, but by the end of this review, I look forward to supporting this.

Lead

  • "The fifth single from the album, it was released on May 3, 2011."—label?
  • "Barbadian singer Shontelle and the Virgin Islander production duo Rock City wrote the song with its producer, Sham."—perhaps "with its main producer", since there were vocal producers involved.
    • There's no mention of Harrell in the lead, so I think it was okay as it was, but I added 'main' anyway.  — Calvin999
  • "Inspired by Bob Marley's 1973 song, 'I Shot the Sheriff', it is an electro-reggae, ragga and reggae track. The lyrics involve Rihanna on the run after she shoots a man."—would flow better as one sentence, connected by a "the lyrics of which".
  • "Playing up" sounds like an idiom. Perhaps "emphasizing" or "showcasing"?
  • "Anthony Mandler directed its music video, with Rihanna justifiably shooting a man after he rapes her."—overall an awkward transition from discussing charts to discussing the video. Maybe something like "The music video, directed by Rihanna, involves her...". And the use of "justifiably" has what I feel are controversial implications that could be debated on, so I would recommend its removal.
    • Rihanna didn't direct it, just a note. But I don't really see how just reversing the structure of the start of the sentence changes anything, because it's still saying the same thing. I've removed 'justifiably' though.  — Calvin999
      That was my mistake, sorry; I meant to say, "...directed by Anthony Madler, involves Rihanna...". Beginning the sentence with "The music video..." introduces the next topic more smoothly I think, since the current structure puts more emphasis on the director than the fact that there was a music video. The Wikipedian Penguin 18:09, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recording and composition

  • "Kuk Harrell produced Rihanna's vocal with Josh Gudwin and Marcos Tovar at Westlake Recording Studios in Los Angeles. "—some context as to who Harrel is (eg. American songwriter) would be helpful here. Also, the use of "with" has always sounded a bit strange to me when talking about collaborators. I feel as though "alongside" sounds better, but since this is a more subjective concern, feel free to disagree.
    • I don't really see the need to add Harrell's nationality and profession, but I've added it anyway. But now it reads "American vocal producer and engineer Kuk Harrell produced Rihanna's vocals". It was self-explanatory before.  — Calvin999
      It's inferable, but rather abrupt as you talk about a person whom we as the readers do not know. You can remove the "vocal producer" part and just have "sound engineer" if that's better. The Wikipedian Penguin 18:09, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The section should first discuss the inspiration, then writing and then finally recording. This would create a more coherent and chronological flow in the prose.
    • I understand that the inspiration to them comes first and then songwriting, but to us, we always get the processes involved after the song is written and released. So I think it makes sense how I have structured it, because it creates the atmosphere that the people involved are looking back on it and explaining where it come from once it was written.  — Calvin999
      It's certainly not how I would have approached arranging this section, but it doesn't seem to concern other reviewers, so I'll let it pass.
  • "According to the producers, they wanted to create something which would provoke listeners to choose sides..."—I know that Rock City is a production duo, but I think some readers would be confused by this, thinking that they also produced the song. Maybe "According to the duo...".
  • The average nonaficionado will not know what is meant by a "moderate reggae feel". It's true that some technicality in a music article is to be expected, but this may be a bit too blurry.
  • "In its lyrics" -> "According to its lyrics"
More to come. The Wikipedian Penguin 14:00, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks.  — Calvin999 17:14, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I have addressed everything above?  — Calvin999 08:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've responded to your reply regarding the "moderate reggae feel". Nevertheless, here are more comments. The Wikipedian Penguin 15:07, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Release and reception

  • "Rihanna asked fans to help her pick the next single from Loud using Twitter"—"pick" is a tad too informal. I'd recommend "choose".
  • "...the singer said she had narrowed it down to four songs..."—vague use of the word "it". Try "she had narrowed her options down to four songs".
  • "(before the May 13 release of 'California King Bed')"—this is a necessary detail to understanding the subsequent clause of the sentence, so dashes would work better than parentheses as they better integrate relevant information into a sentence.
  • "Some noted Rihanna's Barbadian accent; Jon Pareles of The New York Times said that the singer 'plays up her West Indian accent', and August Brown of the Los Angeles Times described the vocals as '[reasserting] her Caribbean lilt'."—two adjacent clauses terminating with the word "accent" is a concern.
  • "ballad-about-murder" is not a theme. If anything it is a subgenre and one with its own article.
  • ...co-written by fellow Barbadian-born singer Shontelle..."—I think both you and the reviewer are trying to emphasize Shontelle's nationality. In that case, how about "...co-written by a fellow Barbadian-born singer, Shontelle, ..."? This structure puts less emphasis on who co-wrote the song than on where she comes from.
  • "steeped in" is too inaccessible. A simple "with" works perfectly fine.

Chart performance

  • According to MOS:NUM, "Comparable quantities should be all spelled out or all in figures." Chart positions should either be written as figures or as words, regardless of whether they are less than or greater than 10.
  • "'Man Down' debuted at number 65 on the French Singles Chart on June 6, 2011, a month before its official release."—Would write "The song" here to reduce repetition, since the last sentence also had "Man Down". This means "The song" becomes "It" in the following sentence and "weeks; it was" becomes "weeks, and was".
    Not done second half of this point. The Wikipedian Penguin 17:50, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for sales of" -> "for selling"
  • Some more variation in the prose would be nicer when referring to "Man Down". You can also use "the single", "the track" and the simple "it". The Wikipedian Penguin 15:08, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After a total of 73 weeks..."—73 weeks of the song being on the chart or 73 weeks as in time passed since the song's chart debut? The Wikipedian Penguin 17:50, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Amended all.  — Calvin999 18:12, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Music video

  • "On May 1, 2011 three camera phone teaser photos..."—comma after MDY date.
  • "In an interview with MTV News..."—interview for MTV News
  • "Mandler said that "Man Down" is a song which required"—cut "is a song" and "which" should be "that".
  • Avoid fused participles such as "with Rihanna shooting" and "with the singer running home".
    Not done. The Wikipedian Penguin 13:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well I don't really know what you want me to do because you haven't explained what it is that you think needs changing.  — Calvin999
      My apologies; try to avoid the noun + "-ing" structure, which is considered controversial in the world of grammar. The Wikipedian Penguin 16:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't really care about if people in the world of grammar think fused participles and noun +ing is controversial to be honest. It still makes sense when you read and it's how everyone talks in everyday life. It's not a rule set in stone that one must adhere by. It's just something someone come up with a while ago just so it has a name.  — Calvin999
          It's understandable, but not quite "brilliant", "professional" prose. You didn't object to fixing a fused participle here. At the end of the day, if all my concerns are addressed except this, I'm not going to oppose solely based on this, as it is a nitpick, but if it is possible to avoid fused participles, I would. The Wikipedian Penguin 19:42, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The group disagreed with Rihanna's rationale for the storyline: that the video has 'a very strong underlying message [for] girls like me'."—who is "me"?
    • Rihanna, it's the same quote as in the first para of the back and synopsis section.  — Calvin999
      "Me" should be removed from the quote, and the word "her" should follow after quotation marks because this quotation is integrated into the sentence rather than being introduced as something she said (eg. "Rihanna said, ...". The Wikipedian Penguin 13:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to the PTC, if Chris Brown murdered a woman in a video which premiered on BET 'the world would stop' and Rihanna should not be allowed to release the video without repercussions."—again, incorrect use of "which". Also, the two ideas need a connector, something like "...and thus Rihanna should not". Finally, "without repercussions" is not supported in the source.
  • The council's criticism of the "S&M" performance is not related to the music video controversy.
    • I think it is. It was the second time in less than two weeks that the PTC had criticized Rihanna for her choice of visuals. The media noted this too.  — Calvin999
  • "According to Mandler, when he was growing up Madonna released music videos which generated controversy and he felt that the music video was wasted as a medium."—(1) incorrect employment of "which"; (2) repetitive use of "music video(s)", the latter being ambiguous. You can substitute for it "the video for 'Man Down'".
    The current version is more ambiguous. The Wikipedian Penguin 13:58, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've added a bit more back but to be honest there's only so much I can do with comments such as "it's ambiguous".  — Calvin999
        My comment regarding ambiguity was of the revision that Graham points out above; perhaps you interpreted it to be of the rewrite you did. Nonetheless, I've attempted to improve the sentence prosewise, so if you're happy with it, I'm happy with it. The Wikipedian Penguin 16:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Minor point, but on what medium did Rihanna and Union share their opinions on the video's controversy (eg. blog, press release, interview, Twitter)?

Live performances and covers

  • "with Katherine Hollisey-McLean of the Brighton Herald complimenting"—fused participle.

Credits and personnel

  • "All recording studios are located in Los Angeles, California"—need a full stop and italics not necessary.

References

Address all.  — Calvin999 07:52, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My replies have not yet been responded to, although I do understand you will be away in a few days and are probably busy in real life at the moment. The Wikipedian Penguin 13:24, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't see you'd made any replies.  — Calvin999
Please see my comment above RE "moderate reggae tempo", for which I've offered a suggestion. Cheers, The Wikipedian Penguin 16:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I won't be able to respond to any comments or feedback until Monday 27 now (one week from today). I've addressed everyone's comments above.  — Calvin999 20:28, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note to coordinators and nominator—I have struck my oppose and hope to read through the article once more before giving my support. The Wikipedian Penguin 13:45, 22 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Second read—additional commentes before concluding this review.

  • "...it is an electro-reggae, ragga and reggae track, and the lyrics involve Rihanna on the run after she shoots a man."—awkward connection "and the lyrics...".
  • "It was more successful on the Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs chart, peaking at number 9."—you don't need to tell us it was more successful on the R%B/Hip-Hop chart if you're simply giving us the chart position. We can infer that.
  • "The song topped the charts in France for five consecutive weeks..."—just "chart", not "charts".
  • Keep in mind that in the music video, Rihanna is in character. It is not her who shoots the man, it is a character played by her.
  • The first two sentences in "Recording and composition" both end with "in Los Angeles", which is problematic.
  • "In an MTV News interview, Rock City said they intended to write a song embodying Bob Marley's 1973 song "I Shot the Sheriff" from a female perspective."—read aloud to spot the repetition.
  • "...they later said that although some people interpreted the song literally, others saw it as a metaphor."—"people" -> "listeners" as it is less vague.
  • "...from a low of F3 to a high of E♭5."—"a low of" and "a high of" are redundant.
  • "The song had a limited release in Europe, including France and Switzerland on July 7 and the Netherlands on July 15."—"including" implies there were other parts of Europe in which the single was released. My advice is just to drop the commentary "The song had a limited release in Europe" and get to the point: "The song was released in France and Switzerland on July 7 and the Netherlands eight days later."
  • "...and August Brown of the Los Angeles Times described the vocals as '[reasserting] her Caribbean lilt'."—words in brackets in the beginning or end of quotations can just go outside them (i.e. "...described the vocals as reasserting 'her Carribbean lilt'."
  • A brief explanation about what the song "Deuces" is about (or was interpreted by critics to be about) would be helpful. The article must stand alone after all.
More coming. The Wikipedian Penguin 15:00, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...from her fifth studio album, Loud (2010). The fifth single from the album..."—repetitive prose. Likewise: "The song topped the chart in France for five consecutive weeks and reached the top five in Belgium and the Netherlands."
    • It can't be helped that it's the fifth single from the fifth album, and spent five weeks at number one France and the top five in Belgium and the Netherlands. Readers would understand this, there's no other way to get around basic simple facts.  — Calvin999 22:17, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      How about moving "The fifth single from the album" to the end of the sentence with a comma after the date and "as". You can also replace "the top five" with "number 3". Sure it was number 2 in Wallonia, but the sentence wouldn't exactly be false. If you're still picky about this, "top three" works for me. The Wikipedian Penguin 23:54, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...provoke listeners to choose sides."—"choose sides" is too vague and colloquial.
    • I've changed because that's not actually in the interview.  — Calvin999 22:17, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      The current version has introduced a typo and is still vague. An opinion on what? I checked the source, and to be honest, I have no idea what Theron is trying to say. An opinion as in an interpretation of the lyrics, or an opinion as in a stance on a debatable topic? The Wikipedian Penguin 23:54, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just an opinion. An opinion is an opinion.  — Calvin999
  • "However, the releases were switched..."—not sure what you're trying to say here. Can we do without this tidbit?
    • She switched the releases around, it's quite simple. It explains why Man Down was released first when CKB was supposed to be released first.  — Calvin999 22:17, 30 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      This sentence is problematic. "International single" is US-centric, and Rihanna isn't even American. And the way I'm interpreting this is that the releases weren't "switched"; "Man Down" just happened to have been released in the US before "CKB". The sources are making poor use of the word "switch". The Wikipedian Penguin 14:04, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Concluding words—before beginning my review, I had every intention of supporting this FAC once my concerns were addressed. It saddens me that I still feel this article is not ready to be promoted. I have read it four times now and each time find more issues. As you can see here, I have greatly involved myself trying to improve the prose by removing redundancy and awkward wording, in addition to the concerns raised here. Furthermore, I understand this article has been proofread by a very experienced copy-editor, but it's difficult for me to support a FAC that still suffers from repetitive, clunky writing in certain places. As an example, I would like to bring to attention the Chart performance section. It reads like a list: the song peaked at this position, remained here for this many weeks and spent that many weeks in total. More creativity needs to be put into the type of content and sentence structures in that particular section. And if need be, trim it, because it makes for dry, tiresome reading. The article's not far off, and has greatly improved, but needs the brilliant, professional presentation required by the FAC criteria. The Wikipedian Penguin 14:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're being too overly picky now, especially by some of your edit summaries. The source I've used even uses "switched", so I didn't really see how it was problematic. I can't help that your interpretation doesn't make sense to you. I appreciate your input here but I think some things are being proposed and changed for the sake of proposing and changing. Three people had supported prior to your comments, and one struck his support because of errors introduced as a result of some of your comments suggested. This article isn't particularly long compared to most FAC nominations, yet you've produced a particularly long list of changes, several of which I didn't agree with/didn't see the point of, but I've adhered to them anyway. I can't see how "work is still needed", virtually everything has been tweaked or changed already.  — Calvin999 14:36, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I struck my oppose so I don't see what's left here for me to do. I felt I was generous by giving a top-to-bottom review of the article, because in other FACs I have opposed on the bases of samples of an article. You can collapse my review because I'm done, unless you want me to revisit. My review is my assessment of the prose, with which I felt there were quite a few issues. Others may have different assessments and feel mine is too nitpicky, but alas. As for my advice leading to issues, I am open to discussing this matter with anyone who feels so, perhaps in the talk page of this FAC. As for "According to Mandler, when he was growing up Madonna released music videos that generated controversy and he felt that it being wasted as a medium," surely you picked up on the error there. The Wikipedian Penguin 14:48, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All I'm saying is that I don't see how there can still be issues following a GOCE run through and comments by you above. If you can't even give me multiple examples (I don't mean changing or removing one word in a sentence) then I don't see what else I can do either. Aside from a comma after Madonna perhaps, then no, I don't. I think a lot of things suggested above come down to personal preference to be honest.  — Calvin999 14:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"...he felt that it was being wasted as a medium." (either way, it's not an issue anymore.) Calvin, I'm just, like any other reviewer, giving my input. It would be unfair if I still kept my oppose after you addressed my bulleted points above, but it no longer stands. It's just that I don't feel confident enough about the prose yet to support, with the Chart performance section as an example. With that said, I am very open to revisiting once that particular section has improved. The Wikipedian Penguin 15:14, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding "personal preference", I try my best to ensure my reviews are objective, but bear in mind that prose reviewing is inherently a subjective process. Nevertheless, every point I raised was either because of incorrect grammar, awkward wording, redundant wording, repetitive wording, unclear wording or colloquial wording. It's true that some of the time I was just on the wrong track trying to interpret sentences, and that's where I was satisfied with your explanations. The Wikipedian Penguin 15:45, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's my point though. You still haven't given me any other reasoning apart from "I don't feel confident supporting yet". Like you said about some of the sentences in the articles, it's too vague. If you still can't produce a list of major issues (not minor ones) then I don't see what is preventing you from supporting. Saying " the Chart performance section as an example" doesn't help me one iota. I don't understand why you would go into such detail, then at the last minute abstain from commenting on one section.  — Calvin999 18:48, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Because here it isn't a matter of moving around a few words but rather rethinking the arrangement and structure of sentences in general. You reuse the same sentence structure and words a lot, so try to vary it more. My concern is very actionable. If you want to work in a sandbox, I may be able to give you assistance, with two caveats: I'll be on vacation from August 10–26 and if I support, it may carry less weight as I will have been quite involved. The Wikipedian Penguin 19:02, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not even going to voice my opinion on your second caveat. I don't see how being "quite involved" means you can't support. Of the Chart performance section, I have tried to vary it, but it's still a variation of the same words. There's only say many says I can say it, the track, the song or "Man Down". I don't think there is anything else particularly wrong in this section, and it has after all been looked at by an outside copy-editor. No one else has so far had a problem with this section, so unless other contributors can come up with more specific examples, then I don't think any more action needs to take place. As a result of your abstaining to support despite me actioning 99% of your list of changes, and Graham Beards striking of his support due to changes made and not leaving an update on the current version despite my contacting him, I believe this nomination to have now entered a fragile state. Without at least a third support, although everything in this nomination has been addressed, I fear for it's outcome, mainly because I know that it is worthy of being promoted.  — Calvin999 22:12, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Schrocat
Comments from Schrocat

Comments from SchroCat

A quick spin-though shows a solid article close to FA standard: I've made a couple of tweaks to improve flow, but a few other points need looking into.

Lead
  • "the Virgin Islander production duo Rock City": Virgin Islander is too detailed for the lead, and is unsourced, as it's not a claim that is repeated in the body. I'd move it out of the lead not bother with it elsewhere (the nationality of these two makes no difference to this song)
Recording and composition
  • "American sound engineer": again, the nationality is unimportant – scratch it

First two sections done: more to follow a little later. - SchroCat (talk) 09:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Rather than ask for some fiddly bits to be done, I've made a few prose tweaks, particularly in the ‎release and reception section, which makes it flow a little more freely in a couple of places. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 12:11, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you :)  — Calvin999 12:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source and image reviews needed please.  — Calvin999 09:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—Gabrielle Union's picture size should be unforced. The Wikipedian Penguin 12:09, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support—per my exhaustive review and commentators above, I believe this fine article meets the FA criteria. The Wikipedian Penguin 12:09, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you.  — Calvin999 15:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review/spotchecks needs to be done please. This nom has been open 5 weeks and has 5 supports, spotchecks is the only thing holding it back from being promoted.  — Calvin999 08:27, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

[edit]
  • There aren't dead links, but there are a few that change path/domain. The url probably needs to be updated, nothing serious. Check "external links" in the toolbox on this page for details.
  • ref 3 & 4–some listeners interpreted the song literally, others saw it as a metaphor–metaphor for what?
    • I don't know, Rock City weren't very clear in that interview. I guess a metaphor for Chris Brown but that's my own speculation.  — Calvin999 08:26, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I thought it was a metaphore to Bob Marley's song. Can you do additional research or tweak it somehow that it could not be divergently interpreted?
        • I really don't know what he is saying. I assumed it was about Chris Brown, not Bob Marley. There's no explanation of it what he means by it anywhere.  — Calvin999 10:07, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
          • Well, you can't leave it like that. Either do a google research on whether it is Brown to whom Rihanna is referring to, or omit that clause.
  • It would be useful to mention that Rock City is a production duo, someone might think it's a website, magazine, or something third.
  • ref 11–the description is accurate, but I can not find the 77 bpm information featured in the link.
  • "Man Down" is electo-reggae, ragga and reggae song with "Caribbean-rhythms". This may violate WP:SYNTHESIS. For example, if source 1 says "it's red" and source 2 says "it's white", you can't write "it's red and white".
    • Generally most music articles list the genres which critics have called it. These three genres come under the same umbrella anyway.  — Calvin999 08:26, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I known that most pop-related articles feature this plain genre summarizing and I believe it's wrong. Two different critics can classify a certain song as "hip hop" (because it has spoken verses, samples, etc.) and electronica (because of its instrumentation), but this should be explained, not squeezed together. My point is, you can't combine two different stances to form a third one.
        • Yeah, but each critic they are different critics highlighting the song as different genres, and this song is each of those listed.  — Calvin999 11:24, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
          • Here's an idea: why don't you separate the genres in different sentences by explaining each critic's view on the genre? There has to be explanation in the review on why the author considers the song in that particular genre?
  • spotcheck on the music video synopsis (ref 56)–written according to the source, and without WP:PARAPHRASE. Well done.
  • Images are fine, just some minor issues on the sourcing to deal with.--Retrohead (talk) 08:12, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I'm not impressed by the quality of writing or the narrative presented, and problems are easily located. Examples:

  • "it is an electro-reggae, ragga and reggae track" What does this mean? These are ill-defined terms and/or genres with poor articles (or no article) that leave the curious reader without much insight into their meaning for the song. Why is the song described in this way, and what elements of the song attract these labels? It's not enough to dig through sources looking for names of genres. You have to understand what they mean and why they apply to the song.
  • "with Rihanna's confident performance – emphasizing her West Indian accent" I don't know what this means. What does her accent have to do with her "confident performance"? You have written it as a dependent clause, implying some connection.
    • Because she is from the West Indies and has a West Indian accent, which she exaggerates due to it being a West Indian themed song. Haven't you read the article?  — Calvin999 08:52, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "August Brown of the Los Angeles Times called the song a direct warning to her ex-boyfriend Chris Brown." This is important enough for the lead? Why is Brown's observation that important? I also read the source and he flippantly writes, "one can’t help but hear as a warning shot across the radio dial to Chris Brown" I think you are misinterpreting August Brown's flippant remark and promoting it way too heavily.
  • "'Man Down' was written by production duo Rock City (Theron Thomas and Timothy Thomas), singer Shontelle and its producer, Sham" What does "its" refer to? As written, it seems to refer to Shontelle.
  • "According to Shontelle, Rihanna was present when "Man Down" was written in the recording studio" It seemed very odd to me that a song would be written in a recording studio (implying they writing and recording at the same time) so I checked the source. It just reads, "studio" - how do you know they meant a proper recording studio and not just someone's soundproof room or home studio?
  • Where do you get "common time" and 77bpm? The cited source shows cut time and I don't see where the tempo is enumerated. I really dislike this practice in song articles of trying to look at and interpret sheet music for facts about the song, because more often than not the editor gets it wrong. This is why we don't use primary sources.
  • "With its strong Barbadian 'patois', Slant Magazine critic Sal Cinquemani described 'Man Down' as one of Rihanna's 'most confident vocal performances'. I don't care for how you combined two independent statements to create the appearance that the "patois" is connected to the "confident performance". This is WP:SYNTH.

I'm very sorry but I think it's a long way off. --Laser brain (talk) 00:08, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very sorry but I don't accept your comments as problems. I think you're being obstreperous in both your comments and your tone. This article has had a GOCE review, a thorough copyedit by Wikipedian Penguin, and has had 5 supports. I disagree wholeheartedly that this article is "a long way off". I can't help that you're not impressed by the quality presented here, and you are clearly in the minority. I knew some kind of conspiracy like this would rear it's ugly head eventually after having waited ages for a source spot check review so long after getting 5 supports in a nomination open nearly 6 weeks. Meanwhile, others somehow manage to get three nominations promoted in less than a month. There's such a bias present in so many areas of Wikipedia, it's unreal.  — Calvin999 08:52, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're certainly free to dismiss my concerns as invalid or baseless as you please. However, I don't appreciate the allegations of conspiracy and bias. I'm not going to bother with responses to your responses, because you didn't actually address my concerns. A Featured Article represents our best work—written and researched at a very high standard. In my opinion, this is a middling GA-quality article at best. --Laser brain (talk) 14:00, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also, after reflecting on your "conspiracy" remark, I realized that this is an undeclared WikiCup entry and you're actually suggesting that there's some effort underway to prevent you from getting points. That's ridiculous to the point of comedy. --Laser brain (talk) 14:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well my experience of the FAC process, and I've had a lot of it, has made me feel like that. I see how other nominators and nominations get treated, and I feel like I'm treated differently. I can't see any other nominations that have gone six weeks without image or source spot checks after receiving 5 supports. I had to ask for people to do checks, and they kindly did them. If I hadn't, I doubt they would have been done yet. I'm free to voice my opinion of how I feel. I haven't addressed your concerns because I don't think they are concerning. I think you're being picky, and clearly others don't agree with you. That's what I find so incredibly conflicting about FAC. Even in this nomination, I've had editors tell me to remove, add or change something only to be told by another to add it back, change it or remove it. So much of this process comes down to personal preference. For you to say that this is perhaps GA worthy at best, I find insulting, degrading and wholly unnecessary. There's never, ever any form of positivity or praise to come out of these nominations. It's so negative all the time. This is wrong, that is wrong... No one ever says 'This is good, well written' etc. All you've done is say what you feel is wrong, not how to improve it, so I don't see what I'm supposed to with your comments. I'm trying improve Wikipedia, and so much goes completely unnoticed all the time. I try my best to praise someone every time they do something good, such as having a GA passed, even if I didn't do the review myself. I've told editors that I found articles that I've read written by them interesting before, but it seldom happens the other way around.  — Calvin999 15:42, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's the nature of putting your work up for examination. You're not going to be treated with kid gloves—you're going to get criticism and you're going to be told what's deficient. You are correct that much of what's stated by reviewers is subjective. You are free to act on or ignore people's comments as you see fit. At the end of the day, the delegates (Ian, to be precise, since Graham and I have recused) will determine whether there is consensus to promote or archive your nomination. I advise you to try to separate criticism of your work from criticism of yourself. Debating comments and suggestions is perfectly valid—lashing out at reviewers and casting aspersions about conspiracies and bias is very poor behavior. Pop culture subjects have always struggled to attract reviews at FAC. But you also must consider that if you respond aggressively and make accusations of bad faith when people take the time to review your work, no one is going to want to review your articles. --Laser brain (talk) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that it is criticism of the article and not of me, but for the most part, I wrote this article, so I think every editor is in some way attached to the article they've worked on because we've all spent hours and hours at our computers improving it for the readers of Wikipedia and because we care. All I'm saying is that I don't think it's necessary for criticism to be phrased so harshly. I don't think I have responded aggressively, but I've always thought that text on a screen can be interpreted how one wishes to read it and is very different from dialogue in person. But I've found that if I don't agree with a comment or suggestion and don't do it, I'm called aggressive or non-cooperative, and that's not fair. FAC is not about complying with everything everyone says, because we all have different ideas of what might work and what might not. I do feel that every experience I've had at FAC has been a real struggle, and not with regard to attracting reviewers, but more of what is said. I'm not accusing anyone specifically, but that is how I feel about the processes I've been involved in. And for me, having had a GOCE review, a thorough c/e by Wikipedian Penguin, as well as edits by other reviewers (involved and not involved), with 5 supports, means that this article is worthy of being promoted, and it's unfortunate that you don't agree. I've seen articles promoted that I don't feel are worthy, but like I said, it largely comes down to personal opinion.  — Calvin999 17:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  • The article is not well researched or not well represented.
  • The incident that culminated to Brown pleading guilty is not mentioned. I am not saying it is about the incident but at least provide context / background to the suggestion of the critic that "Man Down" is a response to "Deuce", it being a reference to the "Rihanna incident" according to another critic. --Efe (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the same issue, the article lacks examination of the song's meaning / undertone. Somehow, it could balance out what the producers and writers intended and what the public perceived. The songwriters themselves said that the lyrics is open to interpretation, and that "the song, like so much Caribbean music, is about telling tales". --Efe (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead's composition is rather weak. It is supposed to summarize everything one finds in the main body of the article.
    • It does. This isn't the longest of article, and a lead of this size and info is perfectly adequate. "S&M" is a much longer article with a lot more info, and that has three paragraphs. "Man Down" doesn't need three paragraphs for a lead.  — Calvin999 17:09, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is August Brown being mentioned in the lead? Is he the only person ever known to have suggested that "Man Down" is a reference to the incident? --Efe (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The construction of the second half of the first paragraph in the lead runs like this: music - lyrics - music - lyrics. It's suggestive of a poor organization. --Efe (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead is rather "picky". For instance, it mentioned the US, France, Belgium and Netherlands (being a chart performer in those areas). What about the other places? What was the reception? --Efe (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because this is just a summary. There's no point referring to every country or chart the song charted in or on. It didn't even chart in that wider spectrum of territories anyway. All leads for all articles are "picky" to some extent.  — Calvin999 17:09, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many cannot appreciate "electro-reggae, ragga and reggae track". They're all pointing to reggae. Why not just state that the song heavily leans on reggae influences? --Efe (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The section about the song's background / writing has to be completely overhauled. As has been mentioned, the organization of facts throughout the article is not cohesive. --Efe (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first sentence mentions Shontelle and proceeds by mentioning the technical people, until finally the track is mixed. Then suddenly the writing period crops up by narrating how Shontelle got involved. --Efe (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "technical" information, which serves as filler, can actually be found in the "Credits and personnel" section. Why go into including them when there's not much more information that can be obtained from it? --Efe (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wish I have more time so I could help in doing research. We're not even halfway down the article. I suggest a thorough research. And in doing so results to the addition of more information which could result to more fact organization and copy editing. I concur with @Laser brain: that this is not an FA-ready article. Best wishes, Efe (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a thoroughly researched article. It has 90 references. Are you seriously telling me that all articles have all sources in them? I don't think so. Sometimes some are miss or don't show up according to the relevancy of your search.  — Calvin999 14:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's no direct correlation between having 100 citations and a well-researched article. It can have many citations but important facts might have been neglected, OR have sources providing less information than those not yet cited. I have already given you the examples. At present, it fails under WP:FACR 1.b and 1.c. Hence, my strong oppose earlier. But yes, there's no need of that. --Efe (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am currently re-constructing the first section based on the sources you have given me. Thanks.  — Calvin999 15:52, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Efe I have just completely overhauled everything and included all that you suggested.  — Calvin999 16:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Calvin999 Thanks for the effort. Nevertheless, FAC is not the place where you should be "indirectly" asking for help to get the article improved to FA standard. More points as I am lazy now to do a thorough review:
  • "'very much native to where she came from'." I think I read it somewhere in WP:MOS, but where there is a quoted material, there should be a direct citation. Please run through the article. --13:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
  • "The final cut of 'Man Down' included on the official track list of Loud was written by Shontelle, Rock City and it's producer, Sham." I cannot find any information in the article that "Man Down" involved other writers and producers that our Wikipedia page should state that the final cut... then the citation is only that of the album liner notes. Has there been other people involved in the writing process? --Efe (talk) 13:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. I'm just summarising the four writers in one sentence, as an accumulation of the past few paragraphs talking about them separately.  — Calvin999
  • And we should probably introduce who Sham is because we don't have an article about the person. Probably provide his full name, anything that would further give clue to this identity. The article itself should be self sufficient. --Efe (talk) 13:57, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's there to give an idea as to final cost of the song, and how much another vocal producer charges and what a vocal producer is responsible for. I can remove it if you like, but it corresponds with the total fee given at the end of the paragraph.  — Calvin999 14:09, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

5 supports and 2 opposes, although I have done all of Efe's suggestions and done Laser Brain's in the process, too. Image/source checks checked out okay. This nomination has gone on a long time now (41 days), it's had a lot of input from GOCE and Wikipedian Penguin helped out too. I can't see why this wouldn't be promoted now, especially with five supports and all outstanding issues resolved.  — Calvin999 20:05, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid it isn't a numbers thing, it's supposed to be about achieving consensus, and even one actionable or unresolved oppose can prevent a promotion no matter how many people support. I'm conscious of the fact that few if any of the supports are drive-bys, but certainly the opposes aren't either. The fact that there are still issues being resolved at the six-week mark in a review is not a good sign. OTOH I realise you and Efe are still actively working on this. If you have truly resolved Laser brain's concerns, and Efe can see light at the end of the tunnel soon, then I would be prepared to keep this open a bit longer. If not then I think it'll have to be archived and the remaining issues dealt with outside FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:42, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Calvin999, I can still locate many problems notwithstanding the amount of superfluous (and probably misleading) information that needs to be removed from the article.
  • "which eventually became the music for the final cut of 'Man Down'." - was there another version or music? --Efe (talk) 03:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, but music has to start somewhere and always evolves from the original piece. I don't see what's wrong with this?  — Calvin999 10:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The final cut of 'Man Down' included on the official track list of Loud was written by Shontelle, Rock City and it's producer, Sham." - This I had already mentioned above. Was there another version that included other songwriters? --Efe (talk) 03:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No. I don't see what the problem is with this but I've removed it. I was just summarising in one sentence who the four writes are, as previously it talks about them separately regarding their involvement, as I said before above.  — Calvin999 10:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He noted that Rihanna had not explored Caribbean themed music since her debut album, Music of the Sun (2005)." - the first two albums had reggae influences. You need to handle this statement of Sham carefully. --Efe (talk) 03:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well that's what he says. "I worked on creating something that I felt Rihanna hadn’t done since her first album". I can't twist what he says, Efe, you know that.  — Calvin999 10:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Daniels revealed that it is where songwriters have written a song but have no music and where producers have music but no lyrics." --misleading. actually, per source, it is where they (songwriters with song but no music and producers with music but no lyrics) converge. --Efe (talk) 03:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His inspiration was to envision Rihanna performing songs at a concert that were 'very much native to where she came from'." isn't native referring to "where she came from"? redundant, i believe. --Efe (talk) 03:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Daniels said that once the writing camp concludes, Rihanna listens to all of the songs which have been composed for her and picks her favorites, comparing the process to a reality show whereby Rihanna is the judge." - it was for the album as a whole, but never did the source state that it was for "Man Down". what if it was the people around her that caused its inclusion? i don't know. I'm probably just OC about this now, but who knows, this probably is a misplaced causality. --Efe (talk) 03:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do I say it's specifically about Man Down? I've included this as background for the writing camp as a whole as to how the process works from start (setting up a camp) to finish (Rihanna listening to everything submitted).  — Calvin999 10:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
7 I've moved it about.  — Calvin999 10:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Calvin999, I thank you for heeding some of my suggestions. As I have mentioned, this isn't supposed to be happening in FAC especially when involving major changes. I still oppose, Ian Rose. I don't know if Laserbrain retains his oppose. I've pretty much involved myself in content gathering. I desire to know what the others feel about the article. Many thanks, --Efe (talk) 03:49, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, but I don't see what you're trying to say for pretty much every point above? Several have no meaning or incur a need for me to change anything. I know it's not all about votes, but clearly more people in this nomination think that it's worthy of promotion, nearly triple, in fact. A lot of the recent comments made, I feel, are subjective and not necessary. Too much personal preference is creeping in here, and it's making it drag on unnecessarily. I think that this article is worthy of being promoted (I know that's obvious). I worked on it myself from April through mid July, and it's had a lot of input during the nomination. This nomination is a culmination of just under four months consistent hard work. No FA is perfect, and I'm sure people will always find something "wrong" with an article, but again, that's largely because of personal preference. LaserBrain hasn't come back to see if issues have been dealt with, neither did Graham (who did actually become the second supporter, but withdrew his support as a result of another editors suggestions, so clearly he thought it was good to be promoted prior to Laserbrain and Efe's arrival). And as far as I'm concerned, I've done yours Efe. So I can't see what's stopping promotion? Apart from the new sources (which I had no idea even existed and have now been added), everything is suggested is either minor or superfluous IMO. Let's not forget that a week went by when this article had 5 supports and 0 opposes but nothing happened. Ian Rose  — Calvin999 10:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Calvin999 I have indeed been monitoring this nomination since I left my comments, and I maintain my opposition. You have posted counter-arguments against many of my comments (and many of Efe's), but I do not accept most of your counter-arguments or believe that you understand why the article is not particularly well-written. I'll also note that when a reviewer points out that something needs clarification, they mean in the article. Your providing an answer here does not actually answer the concern. A good example of your failure to address concerns is your insistence that the "With its strong Barbadian 'patois'" sentence is "flow" and "linking". It absolutely is not—it is creating a connection where non exists. I will also reiterate that I was pointing out examples of poor writing, not creating an exhaustive list of problems in the article (which is not the purpose of FAC). The article has quite a lot of awkward writing, false connections, misplaced details, and source misinterpretations. I believe that what Efe and I are both saying is that problems should not be so readily found at this point in the game, regardless of who has edited it or supported it in the past. --Laser brain (talk) 11:08, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But I don't accept a lot of the comments as being worthy of opposition. I guess it's something that we just disagree on. The problem is LaserBrain, is that by saying that there are problems with the prose, you are indirectly saying that Miniapolis (the GOCE copyeditor), Wikipedian Penguin who is very particular and has FA's on his own promoted, and SchroCat (who is an FLC delegate) have written poorly, as they have all copyedited the prose at some point in one way or another. Most of what I wrote has actually been changed since the GOCE. Furthermore, Graham supported this within a few days of nominated and said that Miniapolis has done a good job. See what I mean being subjectivity and personal preference? It should mean something that nearly triple the amount of people who have opposed his promotion actually want to see it promoted. I can give you examples from other FAs which have bad phrasing and prose issues which I'm surprised got promoted, but I'll probably get WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS as a reply. I don't see what else I can do here. It's already been through GOCE, Wikipedian Penguin did an extremely thorough copyedit and review, and an FLC delegate who is used to these kind of high-quality nominations has given his support. That should account for something. Furthermore, no one opposed until you did, Laser brain. It went four weeks going from strength to strength. Why did six other editors, (including an FAC delegate) not find any of these'major, oppose-worthy issues'? Laser brain  — Calvin999 12:25, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like this ground has been well-covered, and this is getting pretty far off topic, but I'll briefly state:
  • Other people finding or not finding issues, the identity/affiliation of those people, and the timeline of support/opposition, has no bearing on my opinion. You can say 20 more times that so-and-so edited the article and that no one opposed until I showed up, and it will continue to have no bearing on my opinion. I have many times opposed nominations when people I respect have supported them, and vice versa. This is why we have multiple reviewers at this level—different people see different things and have different opinions.
  • You continue to take criticism of the prose as a personal attack. Saying the writing is poor is not the same as calling people poor writers or editors. --Laser brain (talk) 13:46, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • But more reviewers think this article is good enough to be promoted! But that doesn't seem to account for anything! As far as I'm concerned, I've done what you've asked of me. Saying the writing is poor is saying that the people involved haven't done a good job. I've laid out my case, I think I have multiple very valid points as to why this should be promoted. You nor Efe will ever support this article, so I doubt I ever stand a chance in seeing it promoted if it is archived, of which I see no reason for why it should be.  — Calvin999 14:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry but, again, it is not about numbers, and please AGF of those opposing. I can assure you that all the coordinators would much prefer to promote than archive, but the simple fact is that we do not have the consensus here that is required for promotion, and I don't see us achieving that any time soon. PR might be the next logical step in the minimum two-week waiting period before any new nomination at FAC. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:33, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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