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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 18:03, 4 April 2008.

Nine Inch Nails live performances

[edit]

After an easy GA nomination, I believe this article is ready for further scrutiny. I think it's a solid article and is thoroughly referenced. Please note that there is an ongoing discussion on the article's talk page concerning the scope of the article, as well as the implementation of the various tables and other graphical elements. Myself and the GA reviewer agreed to leave as is, but other opinions have been expressed on the talk page. So, please take a look, and let me (us) know what you think. Thanks! Drewcifer (talk) 07:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved stuff from Burningclean [speak] 21:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Pretty nice article, just a few things needed.
    • Check the external links, there are a few duds.
    • Ref 47 needs a publisher
    • In the studio, most if not all of each Nine Inch Nails release is performed entirely by Trent Reznor. Can this be reworded? Is reads funny.
    • "The band was apparently poorly received, and they were asked to leave the tour after 10 dates." This really needs a ref. "Apparently" isn't very good.
    • "On the second of the three nights, Richard Patrick was briefly reunited with the band, as he contributed guitar to a performance of "Head Like a Hole."" Needs a source.
    • Carapetis' last show was in Argentina, and Freese joined on a more permanent basis. Needs source.
    • As a rule of thumb, you should have a citation at the end of every paragraph.
    • In the Live releases section, could you add chart positions and certifications of the materails? Burningclean [speak] 18:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I took care of your first six comments. The latter two I have to disagree with, however. There's no reason why each paragraph should end with a citation: per WP:CITE an article should only cite contentious, surprising, biographical information that is likely to be challenged. The last sentence of a paragraph is not always contentious, surprising, or biographical in nature. As for the charts and stuff, I suppose that would be easy enough to include, but I don't think data like that really applies to the topic at hand. I think that info is better left to the Nine Inch Nails discography. Drewcifer (talk) 17:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that's alright. What I meant by the "rule of thub" thing, is that it is generally a good thing to do. I personally don't do it all the time myself. My first comment wasn't taken care of. Burningclean [speak] 22:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I checked the links again, and the only one that pops up for me now is the "Nine Inch Nails Line Up European Shows, But States Must Wait" MTV.com thing. But if I click on it myself, the page shows up in the little mini window like it should, so I'm not what the problem could be. Is there a dead link in specific that you're noticing that I'm not? Drewcifer (talk) 00:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The AMG one was fixed, but now all of the sudden, all of the MTV links don't show up for me. They say "Connection timeout" Burningclean [speak] 21:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what the heck is going on with the link tool, but the fact that it keeps changing is a little suspect. I just tried it, and everything worked fine except for the AMG link. But then if I click on the link itself the page shows up perfectly. I don't know what's going on, but everything looks fine from this end. Drewcifer (talk) 21:35, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I tried it yet again, and now I'm getting no bad links. Everything seems fine to me, I think it's just the tool that's going a little haywire. Drewcifer (talk) 20:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a big deal. It has happened to me before also.
Thanks for the comment. Yes, there was a discussion about that article's name, and the consensus was that the current title was best, for a couple of reasons. Mainly because of the scope of the article being not just about the band, but also about their place in the book of NIN, various tours, also the live performances themselves. The scope of the article is fairly broad, so the title must be similarly broad. This touches upon an issue I mentioned in the nomination, that it's been discussed to adjust the scope of the article, which would obviously affect what you are pointing out. My own opinion is that it is unneccessary to split up the article (into things like Nine Inch Nails (live band), Nine Inch Nails tours, etc., etc.), since everything is very closely related and makes much more sense in the context of a fairly broad article as opposed to a bunch of smaller articles which are out of context completely without the others. 17:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the article title is fine. Ceoil (talk) 19:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I still think it would be beneficial to split the article into two pages: a biographical article about the ever-changing backing band (which the touring gorup essentially is) and a list of NIN tour performances. The latter is particularly suited for listing tour dates, which this article really doesn't need. Splitting wouldn't really harm the article; it would still be GA-worthy and I'd support it remaining at FAC. It's just as it stands it covers a large, somewhat unwieldy scope and would work best as separate articles and lists on more clearly-defined subjects. I can help our set up and rearrange the articles if you want. Also, those collapsable boxes are totally unnecessary. A few weeks back I previewed the page in the edit window with them removed, and nothing was lost information-wise. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well that pretty much summarizes the debate at hand. Wesley's suggestions aren't bad by any means, but I think splitting the article up is an unnecessary step. Are there any other opinions on the subject? Drewcifer (talk) 20:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment
  • The last image caption shouldn't have a period
  • Ref authors are inconsistently formatted.
  • Logical quotation should be used, as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Quotation marks.
  • Left-aligned images shouldn't be placed at the start of subsections.
  • Non-breaking spaces are needed between numerical and non-numerical elements, eg. "24 million homes"
  • "Most" is usually better than "the majority of".
  • "Prior to" is overly formal. "Before" is better.
  • "Although" is more encyclopedic than "though".
  • "the Self-Destruct tour, circa 1994-1995" - wrong dash
  • "the September 18 show in Honolulu" - date link missing
  • Spaces are needed around ellipses, unless they're part of the original text.
  • "and lasted until mid 2000" - hyphen needed after "mid"
  • The first sentence doesn't require any bolding, as per Wikipedia:Lead section#Bold title. Epbr123 (talk) 23:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the extremely thorough review. I believe I've taken care of all of your concerns, except for the logical quotation comment and the left-aligned image comment. For the first, I'm not really sure which quotes you are referring to, as I thought I followed that particular guideline to the T. Could you give me some specifics? As for the left-align image thing, is that actual policy? I've never seen it written as such. Drewcifer (talk) 01:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The image guideline is at Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Images, which states, "Do not place left-aligned images directly below second-level (===) headings, as this disconnects the heading from the text it precedes." These are the quotes that need fixing:
"Nights of Nothing," - I assume the comma isn't part of the name
"My Violent Heart,"
"Head Like a Hole."
"The Beautiful People."
"other ways [to] present the material in concert." - punctuation comes outside when the quote is a sentence fragment
"stalactites or stalagmites [formations] to tie in to the album artwork." Epbr123 (talk) 02:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good points, yet again. Thanks for the follow up and your thoroughness. I believe I've addressed all your concerns. Let me know what else I can do. Drewcifer (talk) 05:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 22:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All other links check out with the link checking tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've replaced all of these sources with more reliable ones, with the exception of the last one, which I consider reliable because the author was one of the performers. –Pomte 21:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me. The last one was marginal on being a concern, I mainly wanted to be sure that I was understanding correctly that he was the performer being referred to. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Added with minimal detail. –Pomte 02:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now on 1a. The text is peppered with errors, but they should be fixable. This should have had a peer review before coming here. You obviously took some liberties with the visual presentation of this page and the collapsible tables are fine. Some issues:
    • Check throughout for stylistic but ungrammatical comma use. Don't use a comma as a "pause" in a sentence when the second clause doesn't stand on its own. These are everywhere in the article. Example: "Chris Vrenna left the band temporarily to play in Stabbing Westward, and was replaced for the remainder of the tour by drummer Jeff Ward."
Yea, I, definitely, do, like, my, commas. I'll see if Pomte can provide an extra set of eyes for this one.
    • You alternate between referring to NIN as "it" and "they". Please be consistent.
I can't find any examples of the bandbeing referred to as "it". I did a simple search for the word, and all instances were in quotes or citation titles. Is there any that I'm missing?
    • There is too much white space in the article and it is very visually distracting.
I think this might be a shortcoming of my low-res monitor: I can only see one instance of white-space, in the Early tours section. I would guess that there might be some in the Performance 2007 section though? I've made both offending images a little smaller. I'm doing it blind however, so let me know if that helps at all.
    • I'm not sure the first sentence is accurate. Suggesting that the studio musicians are a "component" of the live band implies that the studio musicians are a sub-set of the live musicians. That's not true, is it? Aren't there studio musicians that aren't in the live band?
    • Instead of "a number of tours" just say "various tours". (DONE)
    • "Nine Inch Nails live performances contrast with the recorded output of the Nine Inch Nails discography." The discography does not have an output.
    • "Reznor writes and performs most Nine Inch Nails studio material entirely by himself..." The word "entirely" is redundant. (DONE)
    • "...where the band "stole the show" from headliners Jane's Addiction despite numerous equipment problems." Ooooo. Like what? Being smashed on stage?
    • "Since their first touring in 1988, Nine Inch Nails has embarked on five major tours." Either "Since their first tour..." or "Since first touring..." please. (DONE)
    • "The first live band was assembled to support Skinny Puppy on several dates, and was composed of what a Goldmine article described as session musicians." Just say "...composed of session musicians." No need to mention Goldmine, especially since you don't have a citation and source listed. (DONE)
    • "The band was poorly received, however, and were asked..." Was asked, unless you are writing this in British English for some reason. (DONE)
    • "To replace long-time member Chris Vrenna, Reznor held open auditions to find a new drummer, eventually picking then-unknown, Jerome Dillon." No comma before Jerome. (DONE)
    • Why do some statement about band lineups have 2 or 3 citations? Only one please, unless the item is likely to be challenged. Otherwise, it just looks like source-stacking.
    • I don't think the formats Beside You in Time was released on is relevant for this article. Anyone who cares will have already clicked the wikilink.
I removed all instances of formats except for one mention in the prose of the Live releases. So I removed it from the History section and the initial list in the Live releases section. I think it's worth mentioning once, but 3 times was definately excessive. Sound like a good compromise?
    • "Freese eventually replaced Carapetis and joined the band on a more permanent basis." I'm not sure anything can be "more permanent". Permanent is an all-or-nothing word. (DONE)
    • The 2007 tour is really called "Performance 2007"? Or did you decide to call it that because it has no name?
Yep, pretty much take a look at any of the Performance 2007 citations, and you'll see what I mean. Not very creative, I know.
    • "...with much of the game revolving around a number of live performances." Again, use "various" or similar instead of "a number of". (DONE)
    • "Since first touring in 1988, no member of the Nine Inch Nails live band has remained consistent except for Reznor himself." The people themselves have been consistent; it's the lineup that's been inconsistent. See the difference?
    • Why nothing about the visual production of the shows prior to 1999?
I haven't been able to find any sources for that, unfortunately. I would also assume that their shows were pretty standard rock-show fare up until 1999, so it might not have gotten alot of press.
    • "Nine Inch Nails shows typically feature a large amount of..." Large number of. Everything you list is quantifiable. (DONE)
    • "Also used were DLP projectors displayed on a gauze screen in front of the stage." So there were pictures of DLP projectors on the screen? (DONE)
    • Image:Alessandro Cortini.jpg makes the Live Releases heading depart the left side of the screen. That's a no-no.
I right-aligned it. Not perfect, but better?
    • Again, in the Live Releases heading, lists of formats are not needed.
See above.
It was indeed the dude. Drewcifer (talk) 19:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all the comments. Drewcifer, tell me if you'd like help addressing specific ones. –Pomte 16:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, thanks so much for the thorough review thus far. I've addressed a bunch of your concerns, and responded to a few others. Still working on a couple of them. Pomte, maybe you could help out and provide an extra set of eyes for the excessive-comma thing (first comment)? Drewcifer (talk) 19:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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