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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 02:42, 16 October 2008 [1].

Paul Gondjout

[edit]
Nominator(s): Editorofthewiki
previous FAC (02:29, 2 October 2008)


I am again nominating this for featured status because it is the most comprehensive account of this man's life, online and offline. The article failed FAC before mostly due to prose concerns. Now that User:Ceoil copyedited it I think the problem is resolved. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 23:19, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Giggy's

comments

Giggy (talk) 11:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose
  • This is for the record, although I posted it on Maralia's talk page last night. I'm very concerned that the article and its references have been translated using Google translator and "a little French". In every extensive article I've written, I come across sources that interpret facts differently or contradict each other. I read only English and I'm confused sometimes about which one to trust. The barrier of language is so significant that it would frighten me to have to defend the article here at FAC. Should it ever appear on the main page and readers who are fluent in French find a mistake, I would be mortified to learn that I had mistranslated, or misunderstood something due to my poor language skills. I imagine a native French-speaking editor who was just as shocked as I would contact the ANI page, causing a ruckus for the FA project. Wikipedia already has enough problems earning the confidence of readers. Featured articles are supposed to deal with that directly: an FA is cited to the hilt. But again, most readers assume that those who wrote the article have a familiarity with the language. --Moni3 (talk) 11:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't the writer of the related articles on French wikipedia speak english? Couldn't he read through? Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 16:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but he is very bad at it. This is useless. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 19:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose — I haven't read the article. I haven't even looked at the page. However, after I read the above discussion, I have no other choice but to oppose. Unfortunately, I don't feel comfortable seeing this as an article, let alone a potential featured article. It is unacceptable to write a page whose references were translated using Google Translator, which has shown to be incorrect and unreliable much of the time. How would we know if the entire page is factually inaccurate? Is there any way of telling, other than assuming Google Translator is translating the text correctly? An article that leaves the reviewer asking these sorts of questions cannot possibly become featured. As Moni said, what if this were to pass FAC and make it to the Main Page with factual errors that neither you nor the reviewers were aware of? Should a reader familiar with the subject/language stumble upon an error, the featured article process, the reviewers, the author, and the FA director will then be responsible for allowing an article to be promoted with such errors. So, for now, I'm opposing based on 1C, until a French-speaking editor can verify the content. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 16:48, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is people are centering in on verification issues here, but its not as if thats the only problem and that its a brilliant article. It is a biographical article and the mid section in particular on the coup really talks about Aubame and Mba and the event than it does Paul Gondjout. It is just a representation of another article to seemingly fill it out, and if you take out that paragraph or remove the information which tells you about the event rather than directly speaking from Gondjouts perspective you are left with a very short article that gives you some basic details about his early political career and then a bottom section which tells us little about his later years; thirty years of his life are unaccounted for. The same goes for that unrelated photograph from 1959 jto bulk out the article when it is completely unrelated to the event, rather it just tells me , this is how french and Gabonese soldiers look together. How I ask does this enchance my understanding of Paul Gondjout? The first paragraph is a very good one but for me this is where it ends. The article really centers on the 1964 coup and given that most of it does not directly discuss Gondjout this shouldn't even have been proposed for an FA. I appreciate that this is an article on Gabon and "nobody knows anything about his later life" but I can't emphasise enough that FAs are supposed to represent our best most resourceful work and the flaws in this article I'm sorry to say are quite serious. Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 17:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course no French reviewers are gouing to verify this, because they don't care about the subject matter. Of course, this is an article about a very important politician, but why wasn't it created until 11 August (by me). Your oppose is pretty unactionable, and as I've said before, most of the facts are backed by my English souces by my computer. However, more is available in French because that is the language spoken in Gabon. Even with the French sources nothing is mentioned after the trial until a few blurbs about his wife's death and a gevernment source that mentions but the place and date of death. I think it is pretty paranoid of you to think that there is any error on this article. Google Translate is 99% accurute, despite being awkwardly worded. I also wrote 2002 Bou'in-Zahra earthquake and Lazare Ponticelli to FA status from some foreign-language sources, and no one really complained about them. What's the difference? ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 19:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Telling me that "French reviewers are not going to verify this, because they don't care about the subject matter is a poor argument. Surely there is some French editor that will be able to read this and verify its content. Now, tell me why my oppose is unactionable. Citing a source which neither you or the reviewers can understand fully is equal to not citing a source at all. To tell me that I'm "pretty paranoid" because I'm questioning the reliability and factual accuracy of a candidate to become considered "Wikipedia's best work" is also a poor argument, and does not sway me to reconsider my vote. Cheers, –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 19:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Google Translate is 99% accurute [citation needed] You've demonstrated the need for the scrutiny of Featured Articles with this FAC. --Moni3 (talk) 20:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Find one then. It is unactionable since the article has already received translation help (on Leon M'ba) to prove it wasn't wrong. You're paranoid because Google Translite is right most of the time, and I've been using it far longer than when I even heard of Wikipedia. Re Blofeld, I added about the 1964 coup to give an explanation of how Gondjout came into play. Again, my FA arguement still stands. I see no reason at all, unless someone comes up with some prose issues, to not promote this to FA status. Voting without even looking at the article is poor form in itself. ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 20:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WOTW, you have yet to bring up an argument worth considering. Telling me my participation is "poor form", and stating that I'm paranoid isn't helping your case. Additionally, is there a source that states Google Translator is correct most of the time? –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You participation was not porr form, not reading the article was. Through my long term use of it, my bit of French that I know hasn't conflicted with Google. I do understand Spanish and German a bit better though, and they never conflict either. The gramma may be off, true, but the basic wording: never. I have been redirected to a better site by EJF. For this, however, it did receive professional help on M'ba (which I took most of this article from). ~one of many editorofthewikis (talk/contribs/editor review)~ 20:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with Ed that actually google translator does a pretty good job of translating unlike some of the other terrible systems on the web. The grammar and some phrase translations are far from perfect sometimes terrible, but nearly always, particularly if you have a basic knowledge of the language can work it out accordingly. Google translate is actually far superior to these, I doubt there are any serious errors in his translation but I admit we would look sheepish if a french wikipedian reported it to ANI for errors or somebody made a meal of it in the media. I doubt however, that anybody will. Blofeld of SPECTRE (talk) 20:32, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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