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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:34, 15 March 2009 [1].

Premiere (The O.C.)

[edit]
Nominator(s): Rambo's Revenge (talk)

Okay, I have been working on this for a while now. I got this to GA in October, and it has been at peer review for the last month. This is my first FAC, and I couldn't have got here without the massive help of a number of editors with FAC experience. Thanks in advance for any comments and, in the words of Luke, "Welcome to the O.C., bitch". Rambo's Revenge (talk) 23:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, preempting the inevitable question about the reliability of seeing-stars.com, this was briefly discussed at both PRs and it has been unopposed at WP:RS/N for the last week. (This has since been automatically archived). Oh, and I am in the WikiCup. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 23:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

  • Other than the seeing-stars site, I have no concerns. I'll leave that one for others to decide.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I helped out during the peer review as far as my skills allowed it, but I haven't really watched the improvements afterwards. Reading the article again now, I can't find anything standing out that violates the FA criteria. (Two things though: I don't really understand the need for the Notes section for ratings when the term is already linked, and Glen Rojas's opinion feels a little jarring at its current position, but I couldn't make it work elsewhere either.) – sgeureka t•c 13:40, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, 1c. I'm sorry, but seeing-stars.com is a deal breaker. A self-published web site whose only substantial press is as an incidental source for tourist information cannot possibly be considered a reliable source for serious research. I found a mention in the Los Angeles Business Journal, but the Journal just writes that it is a good source for learning where a star eats, etc. The best sources have not been used here. --Laser brain (talk) 05:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have to disagree. There are no better sources for this information, the only other sources are much less reliable fan blogs. So in that respect the best sources have been used. According to Chino's Daily Bulletin the site "backs up its assertions with photographic comparisons" and as for only having one bit of substantial press, there seems to be a fair bit of press on it here. If better sources existed I would have used them, so if you know of any, please let me know. Also, I don't know if there is anything more I could have done to establish this source. I spoke to a number of editors about it and left in up on the reliable sources noticeboard where it was unopposed until its automatic archival. I would be a little peeved if this was the stumbling block of lots of hard work. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 09:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd have a better time believing this to be a reliable source for the claims in the article if the site actually verified its statements with the folks tied to the production of the episode. Surely they discuss filming on the DVD commentary? And I would be willing to bet that they give a much broader picture of what filming entailed than just the fan-like trivia compilation of locations that the section currently features. BuddingJournalist 17:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Can I take you up on that bet! I've just spent (wasted) an hour watching features on the DVD season 1 box set which I hired. A full episode commentary for pilot (which is a bonus feature on DVD1) states nothing about filming locations, it's just full of what scenes set up for the future of the series. I also watched "Inside The Real O.C." (bonus on DVD7) which is completely unrelated and is just a bunch of kids relating their experiences to the show. The DVDs provide no information at all. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 21:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I was basing my hunch on "I knew from the DVD commentary on the pilot episode that it was a real home, in a real cul-de-sac." at seeing-stars.com, so I figured that the commentary touched at least some aspect of the filming. Do they not discuss anything at all related to filming (note, there's more to filming than just where they shot scenes)? BuddingJournalist 21:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Um they do mention it is a real cul-de-sac but leave it at that. The other filming stuff they mention is things like "they spent 3/4 nights" filming the Holly's beach house scene. The other stuff is I see as fairly trivial though. For example, that the scene of Ryan being driven back home is filmed at sunset but depicting sunrise, Doug Liman filmed a scene on a hand-held camera (whatever that means), and that the camera crew can be seen in one scene as it was the end of the day and they were hurrying. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • I guess it all depends on what you define as trivial. "Doug Liman filmed a scene on a hand-held camera" may not be as trivial as you think (I don't know how much detail they go into on this), especially since you don't seem to understand the implications of hand-held filming. The difference between hand-held and traditional fixed camera filming is rather noticeable and contributes greatly to the look and feel of a TV program/film. A description of the filming style and why it was chosen is something I would expect to see in a featured film/TV article (if sources were available that discuss it). BuddingJournalist 22:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Adding to the above reply, the press you cite is talking about seeing-stars as a tourism web site, not as a place of serious entertainment journalism. With all due respect and credit to your hard work, this is unacceptable. Start with a few hours in the library searching scholarly databases that index major newspapers and entertainment periodicals. --Laser brain (talk) 17:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually one of the press cites explicitly mentions the O.C. part of the site, Inland Valley Daily Bulletin. Also, with all due respect, this is not some 2009 episode of Lost where every breath the actor takes on set is recorded by some entertainment periodical. Are you actually saying this filming loaction information should be removed from the article? Rambo's Revenge (talk) 21:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm saying FA requires the best sources, and this is not an acceptable source. This information can't be removed, either, because it is required for comprehensiveness. I can't go further with examining the prose until the sourcing issue is sorted out. --Laser brain (talk) 21:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • So basically its a no win. Because the most scholarly sources you require don't exist, and the information cannot be removed. I'm sorry if I sound frustrated, but in truth I am. I have had plently of people look at this source along the way. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 21:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • I would argue that very little of what is in Filming at the moment is at all required for comprehensiveness. While filming locations are informative, there is much more to filming than just locations. I fail to see what's encyclopedic, for example, about giving the exact address of the Cohen's house. BuddingJournalist 21:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • May I ask if you have checked the databases I mentioned? For example, a couple minutes searching told me that Entertainment Weekly is indexed back to 1993 in Thompson Gale and EBSCOhost. --Laser brain (talk) 21:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
                • I couldn't find anything on Thomson Gale. EBSCOhost gave one PDF which mentioned that the on location filming was captured on Kodak 5274 and Kodak 5279 stock cameras for day and night scenes respectively. I still found nothing about where it was shot. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:15, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • To both BuddingJournalist and Laser brain. I have mocked up an alternative filming section in my sandbox. Could you take a look and tell me if this would be acceptable for both reliability and comprehensiveness. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 00:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Prose could use some work (for example, I'm unsure what "Schwartz described the scene as "selling the world", due to there being no advancement in the story line" is trying to say; "Unusually, the scene..." <-- use of unusually is too generic—-unusually for the show?), but I think it's an improvement on the current Filming section; the added anecdotes make for a much more fulfilling read than a list of locations. Of course, if a more reliable source than seeing-stars.com is found at some point in the future that lists the locations, then the info can be included; just try to avoid delving into trivia territory. BuddingJournalist 01:19, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay, I have replaced the filming section. Could you tell me of any problems you find in that particular section, as it is now the only section that hasn't received thorough copyediting. Thanks for the patience, you probably prevented me giving up completely. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 09:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, 1a I see you've gone a few rounds with this at peer review and whatnot, but honestly it is not up to a professional standard of writing. It's going to need some solid time with an effective copyeditor. Some representative issues are below, but I'm finding problems in almost every sentence:
    • "Financial restrictions forced the production to move from Newport to the Manhattan Beach, California region." This is out-of-place. The whole para is about casting, and suddenly we have this sentence about location. Probably not important enough for the lead. It's also not entirely accurate: "financial restrictions" suggests not having enough money, but later we find out it was actually a "penalty".
    • "The series premiered with a solid viewership, leading the first half-hour of its time slot." This is so-so. It's a pretty wordy way of saying "The premiere led the first half-hour of its time slot in viewership." We can do without the peacock wording. -Done
    • "The episode was generally received well by critics ..." Probably "well received by critics" would be better. -Done
    • Usually, the or a aspect ratio, not just "aspect ratio". -Done
    • "... and is available for purchase in iTunes Stores." No, "in the iTunes Store." There is not more than one.
    • "A cold open shows Trey Atwood (Bradley Stryker) and his brother Ryan's attempt to steal a car." If the police were chasing them, didn't they actually steal it? Therefore, no attempt. -Done
    • "The police chase and eventually arrest the boys, sending the underage Ryan to juvenile hall." The police sent them to juvenile hall?
    • "... but also ranks in the ninety-eighth percentile on his SAT Is." Way too colloquial. You wouldn't say "Barry Bonds ranks #1 in baseballs" would you? Better: "... but his SAT I scores rank in the ninety-eighth percentile." -Done
    • "When Ryan's mother Dawn (Daphne Ashbrook) picks up Ryan, Sandy leaves his business card with the boy." From where? Better: "Sandy gives his business card to the boy." -Done
I stopped reading here. --Laser brain (talk) 21:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments. I have addressed or commented on all the specific examples above. Could you recommend an effective copyeditor as I have already used a significant amount of the editors who have experience with TV articles at FAC level, and a few copyeditors on top of that. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 23:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It can be difficult to find good copy editors for pop culture articles. I will poke around, though. --Laser brain (talk) 01:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hands up who doesn't know what "television series" means in English. Overlinking. -Done
  • "... Seth Cohen, who was derived from Schwartz's experiences at the University of Southern California as ..."—sounds like a mathematical expression. "based on"? Then we go from past to present tense "are". -Done
  • "it was remastered in a widescreen for the complete series DVD released in November 2007"—"in widescreen", possibly? Not just one of them. And to be fussy, a comma after "DVD", so as not to indicate subset (of complete-series DVDs).
  • Idle "also" begging to be removed. -Done
  • "and is available for purchase in iTunes Stores"—Is this perilously close to advertising? I'm uncomfortable, especially as the round-off of the lead. And it's repeated further down. Sandy?
  • "The police chase and eventually arrest the boys, causing Trey to to be sent to prison"—"causing" is part of an unidiomatic expression here; pretty awkward. "resulting in a prison term for Trey and ?enforeced time in a juve...." Unsure about how to word the second bit. -Done
  • Ryan's mother "picks up Ryan"?—Dirty old woman. Reword to avoid the dating implication. "collects him from ?school ..." or something. I'm not reading closely. -Done
  • "However, she does not even know that he exists." This is very informal language. -Done
  • "were actually filmed in Los Angeles"—remove "actually". Old advice from Fowler. -Done
  • I was a little confused at this: "The show was predominently recorded on 35 mm film stock. Unusually for the show, a scene in the Atwood home in Chino was shot on a hand-held camera by director Doug Liman. Savage stated this ensured that the show "doesn't feel like glossy soap opera"." So just one bit wasn't glossy? What was the point?
    • Without going into my opinion about it being to illustrate that Chino is a rough place (Ryan is being thrown out of the house and beaten by his mum's boyfriend at the time), the DVD commentary only states things like it is "helps sell the mythology of Chino", "jumping the line" (whatever that means), and "it feels very kinetic". Can I use any of that do you think? Rambo's Revenge (talk) 11:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • OMG, this critic says it all about this genre: "is really too good-looking to be playing an unpopular kid". Pffff, sorry, not criticising the article. -Removed that bit
  • "Among Schwartz's favorite musical moment from the show was Joseph Arthur's "Honey and the Moon",[53] which helped him write the pilot.[54]" The last comment is WP speaking? It's unclear: the lyrics or what? Prefer "which he claimed ...", to de-WP the statement. -Done

Look, it's undistinguished in my view, and hard to justify as "among our best work"; but I can't see a solid reason to oppose at this stage, as long as the points I've made are cleaned up. Tony (talk) 08:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Objection Closed - Premiere (The O.C.) is a Winner!

"supervising producer Stephanie Savage provided input..." - i've no idea why this is important, but anyhow, i didn't read some parts of the article (like the entire plot) because it's just so [like wow!]... lastly you may, if wished, change Popular culture -> Trivial nonsense to meet 1cWhatisFeelings? (talk) 19:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per 1c the information is all factually accurate. Please don't be sarcastic about what you think of the article. If you think it is boring fine, but please judge the article against the criteria and not by whether you like it or not. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 10:50, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This one doesn't count as a point as there's no bullet point preceding the remark. It's just a conclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WhatisFeelings? (talk • contribs) 19:58, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two questions before I review more thoroughly. The term "projected shooting date" is used a couple of times, but the article never states when filming took place. Is this information available at all? And is there any reason to believe that the projected shooting date and actual shooting date were at odds? If not, we may be able to scrub a bit of redundant language right there. Steve T • C 12:09, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose Struck, Steve T • C :
    • As it stands, the "Production" section feels unfocused, and I think it's because of the absence of dates throughout. There's nothing to ground it, leading to a weak narrative. It's difficult to be drawn in if we don't know when any of this occurred. While exact filming dates are unavailable, other dates have been referenced. For example, Variety's coverage presents a reasonable chronology. Picking some of these out, we see that scripts were ordered in January 2003, casting took place February through March ([4], [5], [6], [7], [8]), by May it had been picked up, and initial scheduling strategies were presented in June. Taken individually, these offer little more than dates to cite, and some reference the series as a whole, but they do act as useful reference points for this article and I strongly advise using at least a couple. It perhaps doesn't help that the section launches straight into casting and principal photography without reference to the wider context of the series' development. I understand that to go into too much detail might duplicate information from the series article, but given that some of the development is already covered (casting), it should be referenced in some way. Even if that only takes the form of a sentence and a useful link to the relevant section in the series article.
    • This isn't an issue at all, but do you think it's worth mentioning that McG's involvement as executive producer stemmed from his being hired to direct the episode, and that he dropped out after scheduling conflicts arose with Charlie's Angels 2?
    • I agree with others that there's technically little to find fault with in the writing, so I'd perhaps not oppose based on prose issues alone. But I do think it could be more engaging with only a little work, and it would be shame if the opportunity was missed. The main issues concern redundant words and phrases. Here's a minor example from the casting section:

      The casting directors, Patrick J. Rush and Alyson Silverberg, began choosing the actors for the main roles eight to ten weeks before the projected shooting date.

      The redundancies are clear, and there are several ways to rework the sentence. e.g.:

      The casting directors, Patrick J. Rush and Alyson Silverberg, began choosing the actors for the main roles the principal cast eight to ten weeks before the projected shooting date filming started.

      An alternative might be "...began casting the main roles", and some editors might point to the superfluous "The" at the start, which if removed would negate the need for two commas and produce a smoother read without losing any of the intended meaning:

      Casting directors Patrick J. Rush and Alyson Silverberg began casting the main roles eight to ten weeks before filming started.

      Another example, this from the lead:

      Adam Brody was selected to portray Seth Cohen, who is based on Schwartz's experiences at the University of Southern California as a "neurotic Jewish kid from the East Coast in a land of water polo players".

      Brody plays the character, so of course he was selected—this feels like padding. Removing it makes for a less winding sentence:

      Seth Cohen (Adam Brody) was based on Schwartz's experiences at the University of Southern California as a "neurotic Jewish kid from the East Coast in a land of water polo players".

      If that unwieldy quote could be paraphrased, leaving the full text for the article body, that would be a boon too; admittedly, I can't see a good way of doing that.
  • I don't mean to sound so combative, but it really is worth the time spent making the prose as lean as it can be. And though you should of course feel free to dismiss these as mere personal preferences, I'd be happy to reconsider my !vote if you at least address the first bulleted issue. All the best, Steve T • C 22:13, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the comments. I have addressed all of the above. Is there any chance you could look over the new "Concept" section and copyedit or let me know what needs improving. Best wishes, Rambo's Revenge (talk) 23:15, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've made further changes that I thought necessary to clarify a few points, provide some structure to the "Production" section (dates, mainly), and remove redundancies from the prose. I didn't have time for an in-depth copyedit, unfortunately, but I think I've caught the more obvious stuff. I've struck my oppose, and I'll be back shortly to consider a support once I've double checked something on the comprehensiveness requirement. Steve T • C 11:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I'm not wild about the fact that development information is primarily concentrated at the main series article; it goes to the comprehensiveness requirement, as the development of a pilot episode is often that which defines a television show. It seems to be a bit of a get-out in terms of not having to provide the fullest possible coverage. But this seems to be standard procedure for other pilot episode featured articles, so I'll have to be content with the context provided by the additions made in the last 24 hours. Otherwise, no real issues. All the best, Steve T • C 11:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I'm here, finally

  • I've already made this edit, changing ref date formats to mmmm dd, yyyy, the same as what is used in the prose, and other script-assisted formatting stuff.
  • "and is available for purchase from video on demand services." I think "and is available to purchase from video on demand services." is more correct -Done
  • There's a bit of WP:OVERLINKING wrt placenames. Newport Beach, California, Chino, California, University of Southern California, etc. There's no need to link, or even mention, California each and every time. It's been established it's set in California, so stating it after each and every city name is a bit OTT. It's probably just enough to link each place the first time it's used. I don't think repeating a link from the Lede is a problem, but every subsection is a bit much. Maybe link at each Level 2 section if you want? -Hopefully sorted
  • "Fox" vs "FOX" -- be consistent with one or the other ("FOX", btw, is only how the network stylises itself) -Done

A few reference concerns:

    • The "ref label"/"ref note" is now depreciated; {{#tag:ref|A rating/share represents the percentage of all television households tuned into a program, and the proportion of the television audience viewing a particular show, respectively.<ref><ref>|group="nb"}} and placing <references group="nb" /> in the Notes section is the current "in thing" according to WP:FOOT -Done
    • Ref 7 [9] is a blog. What makes it reliable?
    • Website names shouldn't be italicised: The O.C. Insider, Ref 17 (PeterGallagher.com), Ref 18 (Jam!), Ref 51 Hollywood.com, Ref 41 (TVShowsOnDVD.com), Ref 50 (Zap2it)
    • Nor should company names: Refs 44, 45 (FOX), Ref 42 (Currys), Ref 43 (Amazon Unbox)
    • Refs 40 and 41 are inconsistent in attribution -Done
    • I'm not sure about "see list" in the infobox. Everything important should be contained within the article without having to navigate away. -Done

That's all. Sorry I'm so late in coming to review. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 18:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, for the comments I will reply to rest later but I must go out for a bit right now. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 18:43, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have stricken the comments that you've resolved. I think for company names, just move them to the publisher field. I don't think it's necessary to say "Currys" and "DSG International", for example. Website names I'm not sure about. I've asked Dabomb. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 02:48, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorted the company names, awaiting response from Dabomb87 on the websites. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 08:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can't think of any way to fix this. I guess that you just have to determine whether the publisher (larger corporation or group) is worth mentioning in addition to the work (website). For example, I think Jam! can stand alone in the publisher if you leave it linked. Ditto with Allmusic. On ref 17, "PeterGallagher.com" and the web title tell us all that we need to know (that it is an official website of the actor. It's all up to whether you think that the website name can stand alone; the main purpose of the publisher/work fields is to allow readers to easily find where cited information comes from and whether the site is reliable. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:21, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, done. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 13:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm happy to Support with the changes that have occurred due to my concerns, and I think the concerns raised by others have been addressed. Most of my concerns were brought up in the Peer review anyway. Good work to Rambo's Revenge. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 23:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tech. Review -- Based on the checker tools for dabs and external links, both are up to speed, while the ref formatting is also found up to speed based on WP:REFTOOLS.--Best, ₮RUCӨ 00:45, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on criterion 3 - File:OC-101.jpg - This fair use image has no specific purpose of use. For help writing purposes of use, please see the end of this dispatch. Awadewit (talk) 19:04, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am discussing this issue. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 20:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All images now have adequate descriptions, verifiable licenses, and sufficiently strong fair use rationales. Awadewit (talk) 20:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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