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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 01:20, 16 April 2011 [1].

True at First Light

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True at First Light (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In 1953 Ernest Hemingway went on safari to Africa where, in January 1954, he was in two plane crashes in two days. He went home to write about the trip, but left the manuscript unfinished. In the 1990s, his son Patrick Hemingway edited the manuscript and it was published in 1999 to a literary controversy about rewriting an author's unfinished work. This is another in my quest to bring Hemingway related pages to FA standards. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

  • "Burwell sees an author who is willingly and happily enjoying a vacation, behaving childishly, blissfully unaware of the effect his behavior has on the members of camp" - source?
  • Gadjusek or Gadjdusek?
  • Check formatting for newspaper articles - some have only newspaper name, some have newspaper and publisher, some have newspaper and location
  • ISO dates should use hyphens
  • Use a consistent date formatting
  • del Gizzo 1999, Oliver 1999 are in Sources but not References
  • Page number(s) for del Gizzo, Jenks, Lynn, Maryles, Steinberg?
  • Check punctuation for Lynn.

Sources seem high-quality and reliable, though I can't speak to comprehensiveness. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:33, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nikkimaria:
  • Added Burwell to end of para
  • Fixed spelling for Gadjusek
  • Don't know what ISO is ?? Yes I do. Fixed.
  • del Gizzo now used; Oliver gone
  • del Gizzo, Jenks, Lynn, Maryles, Steinberg are in html format and don't have page ranges. Will dig around to see what I can find. I've removed page numbers from the other journals for consistency.
  • Lynn punctuation fixed.
Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Much better! One small remaining issue: "del Gizzo" or "delGizzo"? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
del Gizzo - missing space added. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I don't know anything about the subject matter and little about the author, so my comments are on the prose (which is generally very good): Sasata (talk) 19:32, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Engaging read, I enjoyed it (consider all comments below stricken). Sasata (talk) 20:26, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The crash site was seen by a passing airliner that reported no survivors and the news of Hemingway's death was telegraphed around the world." This sentence had me raising an eyebrow… they passed by from the air and on the basis of the short glimpse they got, declared there were no survivors?
  • I noticed a 4-dot ellipsis, was that intentional?
  • Mau-Mau rebellion should be linked a sentence earlier (at its first occurrence) in the Synopsis
  • "…because in the camp are guns, alcohol, and food." this construction sounds a bit odd to my ear; why not say "because there are guns, alcohol, and food in the camp."?
  • suggested links: bush pilot, Michigan, Robert E. Fleming, anthology, print run, Book-of-the-Month Club
  • "about his ability to write".[24][22]" very minor point, but citations should be in numerical order
  • who is Hilary Justice?
  • "However, he thinks Hemingway had good material work with" missing a word?
  • "Hemingway shows an awareness of the political future and turmoil in Africa" just wondering if that "future" was supposed to be "furore"?
  • "Hemingway seemed to realize that Africa was place without an influential and established religion" missing word?
  • "Robert Fleming's considers" fix
  • "… Hemingway had published two novels but since his death works continue to be published." I'd put a comma after death to avoid ambiguous interpretations.
  • "Joan Didion was critical of the Hemingway family and estate for failing to protect his work, instead commercializing and profiting from his reputation and work, and she went on to say that True at First Light should not have been published." Could perhaps reword to avoid repetitious "work"; "she went on to say" is a different verb tense than used with the other critics in this section.
  • Hemingway's sons' licensed the family name and released that year items such as …" Why the apostrophe after sons? "released that year items" sounds odd to me
  • I don't get the irony of the shotguns
Thank you Sasata for the keen eyes.
  • I've read and re-read the section about the passing airliner and have rewritten the sentence many times. Apparently that is what happened - perhaps it was flying low? The biographers all say that the airliner saw no survivors and sent the news that Hemingway had died. Very strange, I think.
  • In a few places I have four dot ellipsis to indicate I've skipped a period to the next sentence.
  • The sentence about Africa should be 'future' though 'furore' is what apparently he saw coming in the future.
  • I've added clarification about the shotgun but am considering a full note for clarification
  • Everything else, I've fixed
Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for taking the time to read and review, and for the support! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:53, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the image review. I'd forgotten the JFK Library updated its website and all the links have been changed; I've added the new link to File:Ernest Hemingway Kenya safari 1954.png.
  • Regarding infoboxes: generally I agree with WP:DISINFOBOX and tend not to use them, as they are not required. In the case of this book the information is convoluted: the manuscript written by Ernest Hemingway in the 1950s but not published until 1999; the book rewritten by his son; the same manuscript used to publish a second book a few years later. Furthermore, the page looks cleaner without the infobox; when it was added the box spilled down into the 'Background' section and caused text squeeze with the image. Other Hemingway book articles have them, but only because I added them, and added them incorrectly as a series, which the books are not. I suspect as I work through these pages, I may be deleting some of them. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:28, 28 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Ruhrfisch. This looks pretty good and I am leaning towards support, but found some mostly nit-picky issues that I would like to see addressed first, which I list below.

  • Since the safari was in 1953 and 1954, should the first sentence refelct this? True at First Light is a book by American novelist Ernest Hemingway about his 1953[-54?] East African safari with his fourth wife Mary, released posthumously in his centennial year in 1999.
  • Also in the lead, this does not seem clear enough Patrick edited the work by half to strengthen the underlying storyline and emphasize the fictional aspects. Perhaps it would be clearer as something like Patrick edited the work to half its original length to strengthen the underlying storyline and emphasize the fictional aspects.
  • In Background, the first sentences of several paragraphs have "he" as their subject. My strong preference is not to use pronouns as subjects in the first sentence of a paragraph (as the antecedent is not always clear). So would it be better to say Hemingway instead of he in these places?
  • Two problems with this sentence: He was offered by Look magazine $15,000 for expenses, $10,000 for rights to a 3500 word piece about the trip, and an official photographer to go with him. First could it be changed to active voice Look magazine offered him $15,000 for expenses... Second, there is no followup in the article - was the piece ever published in Look? If so, when? If not, why not?
  • Another followup - was Earl Theisen the official photographer from Look? If so, should it say so in the article?
  • Would adding a comma help here? ...; two days later, on their way to photograph Murchison Falls from the air, the plane hit an abandoned utility pole and crashed[,] with the passengers sustaining minor injuries.
  • The injuries seem more consistent with a fire and crash than just a fire in The next day they were found and picked up by a bush pilot, but his de Havilland caught fire [and crashed? and exploded?] during take-off which left Hemingway with a concussion, scalp wound, double-vision, intermittent hearing in his left ear, a crushed vertebra, ruptured liver, spleen and kidney, and burns. I added exploded as a possible verb as the next sentence refers to an explosion
  • In Synopsis, is there any reason why the book is set in Kenya and not Tanganyika? Aside from the time in Nairobi, seems like most of the places described in the Background were not in Kenya. Just curious.
    • Would it help to add in the Background that they were in Kenya too? Although Kilimanjaro is in Tanzania, it is right on the border with Kenya, so a camp on the slopes could be in either country. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:48, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've done this, but the sources don't actually specify Kenya - they mention the "north slope" of the mountain. From reading the background and reading the book, I think Hemingway conflated much of the safari into the safari camp in Kenya. The book is specific about Kenya, but they didn't actually spend that much time there, apparently. Does this help? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:23, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think "had" is needed here (sunjunctive) and added a comma too: He explains that if the Kamba [had?] joined the rebellion[,] Ernest and Mary Hemingway "would have then stood a good chance of being hacked to death in their beds as they slept by the very servants they so trusted and thought they understood."[16]
  • Is "He" here Ernest or Percival? He is worried about being attacked and robbed, because there are guns, alcohol, and food in the camp.
  • Would this read better as "Two books have been published from the African book manuscript: ..."? From the African book manuscript two books have been published: True at First Light, edited by Patrick Hemingway, and Under Kilimanjaro, edited by scholars Robert Lewis and Robert Fleming.
  • I also expected there to be a bit more about the other book (Under Kilimanjaro) somewhere in this article - probably in the Reception section. The official web page for Under Kilimanjaro quotes the editors saying that they believe that 'this book deserves as complete and faithful a publication as possible without editorial distortion, speculation, or textually unsupported attempts at improvement.'" which sure seems like criticism of this book. While there is a fair amount of comment in the Themes section from Fleming, one of the editors of Under Kilimanjaro, I somehow expected there to be a sentence or two on how the other version compares to this one.
  • Missing "as" in two places? Fleming thinks Hemingway regarded Green Hills of Africa [as?] experimental and A Moveable Feast [as?] fiction.[23]
  • Does there need to be some sort of explanation that Tanganyika became Tanzania? Hemingway shows an awareness of the political future and turmoil in Africa according to Patrick Heminway who, although he lived in Tanzania for decades, was surprised at the degree of perception apparent in his father's mid-century writing about Africa.[18]
  • Two image suggestions and a duplicate image note:

Looks good, and hope my suggestions help. Thanks for an interesting read, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:30, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the good review. Will have to research the dates of the Look magazine article, or what happened with that. It's a very good question. Btw - Theisen was the Look photographer, and I've changed to make that clear. The book itself is set during a vaguely four weekish period (it's all very vague) while they were in Kenya. I think most of the safari was in Kenya, which me makes wonder if the mention of Tanganyika needs to be changed. I had deleted the quote about Under Kilimanjaro, wanting to focus on this book and thinking I'd use it in the Under Kilimanjaro page, but have re-added. Prefer not to mention Tanganyika > Tanzania as it's not in the source. The buffalo image needs research - we have some on here that are Theisen images and under copyright - apparently not the one of Ernest and Mary, though. Would very much appreciate having the duplicate removed. Also thanks so much for finding the image of the boys. I'll upload that one and add someplace. Will be back with the Look info. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Buffalo image okay and added; boys' image questionable and not added, but used the one we have (though I haven't cropped it). Clarified Tanganyika > Tanzania (sorry, was confused at the first read through); added Look mag info. I think I've done everything - all good suggestions. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are very welcome, thanks for the quick changes. I have switched to support and struck the points addressed. There are two minor points left, but do not detract from my support (and both are your call). Nicely done, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:48, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I'm not familiar with the novel, but the article is very strong; well-written, accessible, reliably sourced, etc. I only have a few comments:
  • There's some repetition in the second paragraph of the lead that sort of bored me: "writer... writing.... writer... writing".
  • Any reason why the dates are in European format, with the day before the month? Just curious, as Hemingway's bio uses American date formatting.
  • A couple of the sections, mainly "Genre and themes" and "Reception and publication controversy", are rather stuffed. From personal experience, shorter sections are less intimidating and easier to read. Maybe subsections would help cut down on the visual strain/scariness?

I'm supporting either way, so I don't feel these points are too necessary in order for the article to pass. Really, I had to stretch to find constructive things to say! Great work. (Wow, it's been a while since I've reviewed an FAC. Anyone have an oil can? I feel kind of rusty.) María (habla conmigo) 13:39, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the suggestions. I've tried to weed out repetition from the lead. The "Genre and themes" has been split to "Genre" and "Theme" and the same for "Reception and controversy" - and in my view a very good change. I don't know why the dates were like that - probably formatted for consistency or something, but according to WP:STRONGNAT, they should be month/day/year, so I've changed them. Thanks for taking the time to read and for the support, and welcome back to reviewing! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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