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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:32, 5 October 2008 [1].

Virginia

[edit]
Nominator(s): Patrick «»

previous FAC (00:50, 16 April 2008)


I feel confident that the article is now ready for featured article status. A lot of work has been done on it, including updates since the previous nomination. Thanks in advance for any comments and contributions.--Patrick «» 00:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs). Needs more work on the prose. I see that since the last FAC, the article hasn't been submitted to Peer Review. That should have been done first; especially for a large article over an important topic. Here are examples from the lead and the first section:

  • "The state is named after Queen Elizabeth I of England who was known as the 'Virgin Queen' because she never married." Comma after "who".
  • "The capital of the commonwealth is Richmond, though Virginia Beach is the most populous city and Fairfax County is the most populous political subdivision." No contradictions in there.
  • Could you add something about the geography to the lead?
  • "Virginia has an economy with several important foundations"—What does "foundations" mean in this context?
  • "Most of the state east of the Blue Ridge Mountains, plus the southern part of the Shenandoah Valley," Change "plus" to something a bit more formal.
  • "The largest earthquake, at 5.9 magnitude, came in 1897 in Blacksburg." "came"-->occured or happened or was (your choice of words)
  • "Gypsy moth infestations beginning in the early 1990s have eroded the dominance of the oak forests."-->Since the early 1990s, gypsy moth infestations have eroded the dominance of the oak forests.
  • "Virginia is sixty-five percent covered by forests." How about, "Sixty-five percent of Virginia's land area is covered by forests." or something similar.
  • "Coal supplies half of the state's power needs, with another third from two nuclear power plants." I think "power needs" can be shortened to electricity, unless there are other important uses of coal in this context.
  • "Thunderstorms are an occasional concern, with the state averaging 35-45 days of thunderstorm activity annually." Three concerns:
    • "occasional concern" sounds too casual.
    • The hyphen between 35 and 45 should be an en dash.
    • The with + -ing sentence structure is not grammatically smooth, try using a semicolon instead: ""Thunderstorms are an occasional concern; the state averages 35-45 days of thunderstorm activity annually."

Note that these are just examples; please find someone to go through the whole text. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate the advice! The article was up for peer review three times this year so far. I think these are relatively minor word choice issues. I also worry that flipping the subject of some sentences might alter the flow of the paragraph. I have made changes based on your suggestions, and I encourage you to keep reading!--Patrick «» 04:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the motto not given in English? this is en.wikipedia? Fasach Nua (talk) 13:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just passing through, thought I'd clarify: Virginia's flag has the motto displayed in Latin, and Sic semper tyrannis (linked in the infobox) gives the translation. Oklahoma (FA), however, has the field written as: Motto(s): Labor omnia vincit (Latin: Labor conquers all things). Perhaps this is the way to go? María (habla conmigo) 14:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The info about the motto is in the text, in the Symbols section. I've added the English equivalent into the infobox too, however the official motto is only the Latin version.--Patrick «» 16:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I dont like the Religious affiliation table unless you know Baptist is a subset of Protestantism, which in itself is a subset of chritianity, then it doesnt make a lot of sence, there must be a better layout. Fasach Nua (talk) 15:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by karanacs on sourcing and comprehensiveness concerns. Where are the books? As one of the original colonies, Virginia should have been the subject of dozens of books on its history, yet the article instead primarily cites self-published sources by various universities? That is not acceptable for a Featured article.

  • The geology and terrain section needs to be expanded quite a bit. The five regions are mentioned but not really described. (Google books search on Virginia Geology gives quite a few potential sources [2])
  • Climate - is there information on average rainfall or average temperatures? It might be wise to add information about Virginia's seasons (in Texas we have two: crazy hot and not quite as hot)
  • I would also recommend that the article by copyedited. There are a lot of awkward phrases and misplaced commas.

Karanacs (talk) 15:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well I used reliable web sources like Yale or the Virginia Historical Society to make the information as verifiable as possible, though I will look into the Google Books suggestion, thank you for that. Since the article is already almost 120kb, there are subarticles that have been split off, including Climate of Virginia, that have more information on temperatures and such.--Patrick «» 16:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Easy access to sources should not be the primary concern when choosing which references to use. Use the most reliable (generally books), and if they can't be found online an interested person can go to the library to get them. Some of the other links can be placed in the External links section.
I realize that the article is long, but summary style needs to be appropriately applied so that the user reading this feels as if he received a great overview of the topic. I felt like some of the sections were much too cursory. I know I've asked for a lot - good luck! Karanacs (talk) 16:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well there are eleven books cited, and another nine journals. I haven't seen this issue in other FACs I was involved in. While I will look to have more textual sources for new information, would you really recommend replacing working sources with books?--Patrick «» 16:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe most of the sources are strong enough, so, yes, I would recommend replacing them with better sources.
  • Because this article is about a state, I would not consider most info pulled from state websites to be independent. These are essentially self-published sources and therefore should not be our first choice.
  • The College of William and Mary info on Geology is a product of their Department of Geology, yes, but it is still self-published info. Colleges do a lot of research, and it is highly possible that some of that could be on the website before it has been vetted by a journal or other publisher. That makes this less reliable than many other sources.
  • A classroom website is absolutely not a good source. Professors also include their opinions on their own websites - look for peer-reviewed or externally published info
  • This source from Jamestown 2007 (http://www.jamestown2007.org/pdfdocs/Three%20cultures%20release%20FINAL.pdf) is a press release. That is a self-published source.
  • Newspapers are not considered as reliable as journals or books. They are generally not good sources for history
  • There are many citations from colleges (where it looks like a professor's site) and even a local independent school district. Many of these are self-published. Unless you can find evidence that the person who wrote that is an expert in the field, then the cites should not be used. Even if they are an expert, that means they probably wrote a book or journal articles on the topic - and those are better sources
  • There are a lot of cites to websites of partisan organizations (http://www.americasfirstregion.com/, proenglish.com) - these are all self-published and are not reliable sources
  • Also, as Moni said below, it appears the article has cherrypicked sources. It cites several different websites on particular festivals - that implies to me that someone went out, did a search on festivals in Virginia, and then added a few that popped up in the search into this article. That borders on OR or Undue, because it ends up representing a WP editor's opinion of what is important to be listed in the article, not the opinion of independent sources.
Not all of the sources are bad, but I'd probably throw out at least half of them. Karanacs (talk) 17:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Half? Over one-hundred sources? I don't think that's possible. While sections such as history and geography might benefit from different sources, the article has to use sources such as the state's own website for much of the information, from statistics on graduation rates to the naming of their state tartan; from the number of airports to Colonial Williamsburg's theme for the quadcentenial. I simply don't expect to find accurate or up to date facts like those in published works. If there are controversial subjects that were cited with minor websites, then I could understand, but that's not the issue your raising. The only controversial issues on the page would be the role of slavery in Virginia and the designation of Virgina as culturally southern, both of which have multiple books sourced. If Wikipedia were to require published sources only, it would really limit what could be included here.--Patrick «» 00:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On references: As Virginia is one of the oldest states, the center of American republic democracy, the home state of 7 presidents, and a major center of slavery and its defense, I expect to see stellar sources about these issues. Instead, the citations list is full of multiple general sources that picked a phrase from here and a sentence from there. It's as if the citations list was padded to add more sources with the least amount of substance possible. I understand that this is an overview of Virginia, but this is to be a featured article on the main page one day. Sources at the local library should be plentiful and accessible. --Moni3 (talk) 15:40, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'Comment' "Unlike her nation-leading education system, Virginia has a mixed health record..." since when was a state considered female? Is there some official designation or is this just a floral term? -- Escape Artist Swyer Talk Contributions 17:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing that out! I guess it was just floral. "The" will work just fine here.--Patrick «» 18:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Some time out problems with several links, and also some disambiguation probs too: Battle_of_Bull_Run, Chub, Consulting, Dace and even Virginia. --Tufacave (talk) 14:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did check every link, and it's just the checklink tool that is blocked. Those disambiguation wikilinks are intentional. It links to Virginia (disambiguation) at the top of the page where it says "This article is about the state, for others..." Thanks for your comment though!--Patrick «» 15:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Kudos on the work done so far, but this needs significant improvement, beyond what can be accomplished at FAC. Historical facts should not be cited to sources such as websites for Prince William County Schools or a student project at Lehigh University. There are some really strange citation sources - the Freedom Forum's goal/mission is cited to an article about journalist deaths in Iraq, published in the New Zealand Herald? Referencing is the biggest issue, but other work is needed, too. Examples:

  • The Flora and fauna section needs better organization to avoid placing emphasis on less important aspects. The second sentence is about mountainous areas, but most of the state is not mountainous. The first linked word in the whole section is prickly pear cactus; while there are a probably handful of Opuntia species in Virginia, it's hardly a common plant, and should be mentioned only after the common ones, if at all.
  • I see many assertions that are uncited, for example: USA Today is "the nation's most circulated newspaper"; UVA "is a UNESCO World Heritage Site"; "the medical school of Virginia Commonwealth University, which is home to the nation's oldest organ transplant program".
  • "Unlike the nation-leading education system, Virginia has a mixed health record" - the first half of this sentence is contentious; it does not appear to be supported in its current form by the previous section on education.
  • "Major performance venues in the state include The Birchmere, Norva Theatre, John Paul Jones Arena, Nissan Pavilion, the Patriot Center, and the Verizon Wireless Virginia Beach Amphitheater." - I love the Birchmere, and it has served many artists well, but calling it a 'major performance venue' is hyperbolic: it seats perhaps 400 or 500. I'm not familiar with the NorVa, but it looks to have less history, and likely less impact, than the Birchmere.

I would love to see this article brought up to FA status (and would be glad to help to an extent), but it's not there yet. Maralia (talk) 15:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A few things, USA Today's and UVA's status is sourced in the text, not in the image captions. But the bigger issue this nomination is facing is criticism of the sources. The reason I feel that this still deserves your consideration is all citation are from reliable sources. I don't believe Wikipedia sees gradations in reliability. Either a source, like a newspaper or a University, is reliable or it isn't. Why would a school history department be unreliable for history information? I understand that different users have different feelings about which materials make the best sources, but I don't feel that Wikipedia does.--Patrick «» 22:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia as a whole may not view gradations between reliable sources necessary, but most editors at Featured Articles do. I certainly do. An article's content should reflect what the bulk of the authority of reliable sources on the subject says. --Moni3 (talk) 22:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't referring to the image captions; neither the USA Today claim nor the UVA claim is sourced in the text, either. As to the larger issue, according to WP:RS:
"Wikipedia articles should use reliable, third-party, published sources. Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand."
The examples I gave - the websites for the Lehigh student project and for Prince William County Schools - contain no information about what sort of fact-checking went into the creation of the materials. Additionally, it's unlikely that the project's (student) authors could be considered 'authoritative in relation to the subject at hand', and the PWCS site contains no authorship credit of any kind. Maralia (talk) 23:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both of those are by professors, not students. I don't know how to get more expert. The Lehigh source looks like a compilation of their digitized library's primary sources, with author information. Since it is only used to source the date of the Jamestown landing, I'm sure another can be found if it is a real problem.--Patrick «» 00:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The credits on the Lehigh site indicate that the contributors were members of graduate seminars in 2003 and 2006. The page at the Lehigh site which is cited here is not a reproduction of a primary source document, but a compiled timeline. As I said previously, there are no credits on the PWCS site at all. How do you conclude that these sites are by professors? Maralia (talk) 04:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. There may be a few things to nitpick about, but overall this is an excellent article. Comprehensive, well-illustrated, and a credit to the project. I would have no problem with seeing this article display the FA star. --Elonka 22:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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