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A large number of fireworks accidentally go off in a barge at a New Year's Day show in Terrigal, NSW, Australia, causing thousands to be evacuated from the beach by police and the two people on the barge to suffer minor injuries. (BBC)
A truck collision in western Kenya kills at least 36 people and injures 18. (The Standard)
Five Douglas County, Colorado sheriff's deputies are shot, one fatally, and two civilians are injured at a domestic disturbance call. The suspect was also killed. (CBS News)
Indian film superstar Rajinikanth, who has a huge following in the country and is one of Asia's highest paid actors, has announced he is entering politics. (BBC)
A man strapped with explosives takes 11 people hostage in Kharkiv, Ukraine. The Ukrainian police free all the hostages and arrest the man. (Reuters)
Arts and culture
Nepal bans solo climbers, double amputees and blind climbers from scaling its mountains, including Mount Everest, in a bid to reduce accidents. This has been criticized by successful double-amputee Everest climbers. (BBC)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Unusual circumstance of death of a retired four-star general. Article is adequate length-wise but lacks sourcing. A little help with sourcing will be appreciated. 39.48.6.199 (talk) 08:09, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb People die in traffic collisions all the time. It's not that unusual. Also he's retired, so any impact of his death seems likely to be minimal. RD only for me, when it's sourced. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:48, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support - short article, but seems to be sufficient. Only issue regarding sourcing is the prevalence with which one of the sources is used, but checking it out, it works in the broader context of the article. Stormy clouds (talk) 19:59, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nine people are killed in two coordinated attacks targeting Coptic Christians in Egypt. Two of the victims are killed by a gunman in a Coptic-owned appliance store in the Helwan area of Cairo. The gunman then moves to a church where he kills a further six civilians and a policeman before being arrested. (BBC)
A suicide bombing at a Shi‘ite cultural center and news agency in Kabul, Afghanistan, kills 41 people and injures 84 others. ISIL-affiliated Amaq News Agency says this group is responsible. (Reuters)(CNN)
The Libyan National Army declares full control of Benghazi, the country's second largest city, after retaking the last district held by Islamist militants. (Reuters)
The White Helmets reports that Syrian government and Russian warplanes, using rockets and internationally-banned weapons - including vacuum bombs, repeatedly strike residential areas in the town of Al-Lataminah and six villages in Idlib province, killing 22 people. (Daily Sabah)
In Mandaluyong, Philippines, law enforcers mistakenly fired at a Mitsubishi Adventure, which they thought carried suspects in a previous shooting incident, resulting in two people dead and two others injured. As a result, 10 police officers were relieved from the post. (GMA News)(Philippine Daily Inquirer)
Nominator's comments: This nomination is a retooling of the below nom, which has encountered clear opposition from many, myself included. I don't feel that a blurb is warranted. However, on reviewing my newsfeed, I noticed that the demonstrations are persisting and, if anything, growing in severity. Thus, the story has some significance as an ongoing nomination, which would not be casting undue weight upon the story. Moreover, the spot on the ongoing list is currently vacated, so it could be put here, especially as the protests exacerbate. Stormy clouds (talk) 20:59, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And are continuing without a designated end-date in sight. The events are still transpiring, and thus ongoing seems apt. The duration of events before the nomination should not impact upon the fact that they are still occurring. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:42, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose still small potatoes. I don't see anything from the map linked above which prompts me to think this is currently significant. The BBC has in on their homepage, but only after the meaningless new year's honours, and a fire in Manchester where one person was admitted to hospital for smoke inhalation. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:24, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As I noted, it's a super slow news period, there's nothing going on around the world, Iran is of minor interest so it's got a few headlines. If they start systemically shooting protestors to death in great swathes, you'd get my vote, otherwise this is just local politics, disgruntled people harking back to the "good old days". Not significant at this time. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:59, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, Iran is not "of minor interest" to the world order. If this is a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT on your part, it's not valid. Remember we don't just edit Wikipedia for Western readers--we have a global readership.Zigzig20s (talk) 12:41, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It has nothing to do with whether I like it or not. This is minor news at this time. If it flairs up to something substantive, then we'll have a different discussion. I think your constant badgering is actually doing more harm than good and actively reducing the chances of this ever being posted. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:55, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Banedon: - Given the uphill battle that the blurb has to reach consensus, I would question the effectiveness of this oppose. It is unquestionably a good faith action, but could end up inadvertently prevent the appearance of the story on ITN in any form, which will occur if both noms are stifled. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:25, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand. If this isn't worthy of being a blurb it's not worthy of being ongoing either. It also works both ways. You could retract this ongoing nomination and support the blurb, if you want to see this on ITN. Banedon (talk) 22:28, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I could, but I feel that this particular incident is much better suited to ongoing. Ongoing, to me, implies a consistent and developing story, where a blurb is reserved for a big single incident, that is usually completed (barring weather occurrances) and the impact of which is somewhat known. Stormy clouds (talk) 23:21, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't think this has been going on long enough to warrant Ongoing. It also still isn't that big a deal yet. As the BBC noted it its piece, the protests are not on a massive scale, such as that which brought about the 1979 revolution there. 331dot (talk) 09:23, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The article contains disputed claims like "several thousand-person crowds protested across Iran" in the lead which should be checked based on the reliable sources.(I removed it) Therefor, it can not be put on the first page before solving the problems.--Seyyed(t-c)09:29, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ongoing "Several thousand" (reading, maybe slightly higher than 10,000) is not very large of a protest, not one to highlight in ongoing. A blurb however, documenting the number of deaths as a result, would not be out of line. --Masem (t) 14:18, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Something like "Days-long protests against the Iranian government and economic disparity result in at least X deaths and more than Y arrests." If it is posted as a blurb in a day or so, that blurb can be updated if those numbers change. --Masem (t) 14:33, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - would prefer a blurb, but regardless, this is clearly news worthy, far more so than most other items currently on the main page. Article is also in good shape, and the factual accuracy tag has been addressed. 81.204.120.137 (talk) 18:46, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment still making global headlines. Article still getting updates. It's stable enough for an "ongoing event". Typically stupid reactions section, but otherwise fine. Think we could move on this? --13:06, 1 January 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CosmicAdventure (talk • contribs)
Support - This is only getting bigger. Now top item on BBC, Reuters. Other outlets don't have this as the headliner, but do carry several items on their front page. Article is being updated and is getting better.Icewhiz (talk) 13:56, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
To quote the BBC piece, "demonstrations do not appear to be taking place on a massive scale". This may become a big deal, but it isn't yet. 331dot (talk) 09:41, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose I am still trying to find the number of participants, but from what I could gather al-jazeera reports that the number of protests in Kermanshah was around 300, and that protests there were presumably the largest in the country. This is waaay too small of a protests wave to be included in the ITN template.Karl.i.biased (talk) 12:42, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support - very unusual to have these kinds of protests in a country such as Iran. Protests are the biggest since 2009, are across the country. and mix economic with political complaints. 81.204.120.137 (talk) 20:03, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - protests should be posted, in my view, if they cause substantial change, or if they are of gargantuan scope (like the Women's March). This nomination satisfies neither, and so should not be posted. Stormy clouds (talk) 20:22, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So scope is the only measure? Nobody died there in the US, 4 people died in Iran already. Not to mention that the idea that number of people participating is representitive of anything is absurd when the countries are these different. Not only is the population of Iran more than 4 times smaller than that of the US, but the urbanisation level is much smaller to. Have you ever tried organizing mass protests in rural Wyoming? I bet that would be much harder than in New York. And then ofc social media use is much more widespread in the us.... tldr the sheer size of the protests isn't important. at all Karl.i.biased (talk) 23:28, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fine then, a better example. Here in Ireland there are roughly 4.5 million people, about 1/18 the population of Iran. We have had, in the last decade, multiple protests which had in excess of 100,000 people occurred, and substantial changes were made to the bill they were protesting as a result. Nothing of even this size has occurred in Iran. If I got a protest of five people together over in the Pitcairn Islands, your logic would dictate that that story would warrant a blurb. Size, in this case, absolutely matters, or else ITN could be a ticker for protests worldwide. Stormy clouds (talk) 11:41, 31 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are a variety of factual issues with the article. For instance, the article states "The pro-government demonstrations were orchestrated by the government, and many of those 4000 attending were bused in." which is supported by a single source which says that, only generally, "Typically, pro-government demonstrations are orchestrated by the state, and many of those attending are bused in.". This is one of half-a-dozen glaring issues I saw just in a very cursory review. We can't link to the article from the main page in its current state, in my opinion. Chetsford (talk) 02:06, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose -Inadequate reference and too much puffery all over the page. Successful singing career, widely known, leading as well as several disjointed sentences. This is unpostable. –Ammarpad (talk) 11:53, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose for now I was thinking about nominating this earlier this morning, but I saw the quality of the article and demurred. It's a stub and requires significant expansion, at least a doubling of prose. It seems significant enough on the merits that I would support a fleshed out article. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:48, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, yes you have. I re-rated it a Start-class article from Stub-class, and I'll change to weak support since it seems to have the bare minimums, and can be expanded in time. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:11, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support/Question The article is in okay shape, but I am not sure (and forgive me for being way too blunt) what is the cut-off for including terrorist acts? I assume that, all things equal, it comes down to number of deaths. Or at least it comes down to the number of deaths if the act was done by the usual perpetrators in the usual country and there were no famous people among the casualties. Now, this is not the deadliest terrorist act of this year in afghanistan, not even the second deadliest. Not even the third. So I assume there should be some cut-off, I mean, we wouldn't report on a car bomb that killed 2 Afghanis, right? So what is the cutoff? How do we determine whether a terrorist attack in Afghanistan warrants inclusion in the ITN or doesn't? Karl.i.biased (talk) 18:26, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "death toll" minimum, and it would be wholly inappropriate to have one, IMO. It should be based on the extent of the news coverage of the event, which in this case I believe exists. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:27, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So, in short, we add news about any terrorist attacks to the ITN if they are reported widely and I assume, thoroughly. Ignoring the number of casualties, or the size of the blast, or any other similar details? Karl.i.biased (talk) 18:36, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In short, you are welcome to nominate anything which you believe meets the WP:ITN criteria, whether it's a terror attack or a YouTube video with loads of hits. Either way there's no guarantee it will be posted, but all nominations are generally greeted with joy. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:38, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What I said was more my opinion than a guiding force here. Some editors keep the death toll in mind when supporting or opposing more than they should, I think. There's also factors of systemic bias (and many local sources not being in English) and some editors who discount attacks in that part of the world because it's a war zone. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:46, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yet Syria is routinely ignored at ITN, terror attacks in Pakistan general fail as nominations unless a threshold of death is reached, and mass shootings in the United States (rightly) face a steep battle to be posted. Attacks like this are routine (consider this, and this fact diminishes their significance both in the RS news and here, as horrible a fact as that is. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:35, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think part of the point here is that we should encourage and promote such stories about events in Syria. We don't need to promote more mass shooting stories from the US, that is all entirely self-inflicted. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Even with the BBC article noting there have been several similar bombings over the last few months, this specific one has a rather large death and injury toll and appeared to be against civilians rather than soldiers/police, making it not an average affair in the area. Article is in good shape. --Masem (t) 20:09, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - no longer appearing in the news, and (despite a large death toll), lacking in significant lasting impact. This is a terror attack in a region where they are a dime a dozen. Prevalence reduces impact, and this is true in this scenario, especially given the fact that Kabul is still a war zone. Agree with the idea of compiling these disparate articles into one, as per CosmicAdventure, but don't think that this should be posted, especially given the article, which is weak despite commendable efforts. Stormy clouds (talk) 21:21, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment at the moment I am neutral on the subject; I should point out that terrorist attacks are often frequently posted on ITN in the past, and thus are ITN/R, even though these events aren’t listed there. However I should also point out that many nominations that fit within this criteria have also been turned down as well for various reasons. Kirliator (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree. If an event is not listed explicitly at ITN/R, then it does not get to avail of the benefits of being at ITN/R - specifically, forgoing the notability discussion. We cannot just ad hoc declare that "Terror" is ITN/R because disparate terrorist attacks are posted. Imagine if that rationale where applied to catastrophic weather events, which are also posted frequently. Every weather nom, provided article quality was sufficient, would get a free pass because other weather events were posted in the past. Thus, I don't feel that this is a fair statement in the slightest. Notability for this nom has not reached consensus - proclaiming that, as it is a terror attack, we don't need to reach consensus, is a skewed application of policy in my view. Stormy clouds (talk) 01:06, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Insufficient coverage to demonstrate notability, rm "admin attention" tag. The last time we posted an Afghanistan attack was this article: May 2017 Kabul attack. If this incident is truly notable, more would be able to be written about it in the article, up to the size of the previously posted one to ITN. Willing to reconsider my oppose if article is expanded. SpencerT♦C22:20, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose a quick glance reveals at least one unreferenced claim in the first few paragraphs. I'll need to take a harder look later, but right now it's not quite there yet. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:26, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: I have chosen Weah as the target article as that is a decent article at the moment but the election article itself is not as good. But of course this is Wikipedia and the community is encouraged to choose the blurb. Harambe Walks (talk) 20:44, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support the first blurb until the election article is brought up to scratch, which it currently is not. The BLP has a couple of issues though I do not think they are sufficient to justify an oppose. In a few spots language is used which has an overly promotional tone to it. Also the section "Honours" needs work. Currently there is no text and some of what follows is not clear, i.e. what kind of honor etc. Also I added one CN tag and we may need sources for any claimed honors not covered elsewhere in the article. All in all the article is not bad and referencing appears to be adequate, if perhaps not great. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:42, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't care that much, but we didn't blurb "Reality TV celebrity Donald Trump is appointed President of the United States". I added altblurb3 which omits the trivia. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 22:20, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose lack of update - beyond 'x won election, defeating y'. What were the campaign platforms? Were there any significant events between April 2016 and Dec 2017? I don't understand why we should highlight Weah's article when the ITN/R one contains more information about this election. Unless of course the event isn't actually about the election and the purpose is to draw attention to a football/soccer career that ended ~15 years ago. Fuebaey (talk) 06:33, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support altblurb2 Support any of the blurbs, and don't really care which. Leaning towards 2 because it is a particularly prestigious "earned" award. It's not just his former job. GCG (talk) 12:22, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I feel that attention should be drawn to his footballing legacy, as it is the detail upon which most of the reliable sources in my newsfeed are latching. Alt 2 attaches prestige, but this is dissimilar to the case of Trump. The power of the position was the story in the news for Trump. The story here is, for better or worse, exceptional footballer becomes President. I feel personally that this cannot be omitted, and we should go with Alt 2. Stormy clouds (talk) 14:46, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully disagree. Every head of state was something else before: be it a former legislator, business person, activist, whatever. The popularity of soccer does not automatically add notability to this persons former career. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 15:04, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Posted Alt3. I've posted a bare-bones blurb, as I personally find it very odd to post a head-of-state's former occupation; we haven't done that with any of the other recent elections. If further discussion establishes consensus for this, I will be happy to add that fact. Vanamonde (talk) 17:12, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
(edit conflict) Oppose - cool story, and I am glad that they are working on interstellar travel, but there is little substantive here beyond NASA stating their intentions to use currently non-existent technology. If there was a concrete plan in place, or testing ongoing, then I would support. But not at the moment. They also intend to find life on Mars.Stormy clouds (talk) 19:55, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Aside from it being 52 years from now, something that far ahead would probably get cancelled or forgotten sometime soon. Juxlos (talk) 20:34, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A bomb goes off in a supermarket in the Russian city of Saint Petersburg, injuring at least 10 people. Police say they are treating the blast as an attempted terror attack. Social media accounts linked to ISIL have claimed responsibility. (Reuters)
Seven Israeli chess players are denied travel visas to the Rapid and Blitz Chess Championships in Saudi Arabia as the two countries have no diplomatic relations. Players from Qatar and Iran are given last-minute visas, while Ukrainian champion Anna Muzychuk refuses to participate because she does not want to wear an abaya. (BBC)
Fifteen militants accused of carrying out attacks in 2013 during the Sinai Insurgency are hanged in Egypt. The last mass execution in the country took place in 2015, when six jihadists were executed. (BBC)
Voters in Liberia will elect a new president in a run-off election between vice-president Joseph Boakai and former footballer George Weah. Weah is elected with 60% of the vote. (BBC)(BBC)
Grigory Rodchenkov, the person who exposed Russia's systematic doping of Olympic athletes, is warned by U.S. officials that Russian agents may be inside the United States looking for him, and that new security measures must be taken to ensure his safety. (UPROXX)(BBC Sport)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose for now. This is someone we really should get up as an RD. But referencing is really poor and is going to need significant improvement before this can be posted. -Ad Orientem (talk) 03:10, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Russian Central Election Commission refuses to register opposition leader Alexei Navalnyas a candidate in the presidential election due to a previous embezzlement conviction, which he claims is politicized. Navalny has called for his supporters to boycott the upcoming election in response. (BBC)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose I understand we don't debate importance of RDs, but I don't think a write-up in the local community newspaper constitutes being "In the News." If a real paper picks this up, the article is fine. GCG (talk) 21:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
RD criteria is that the subject's "death is in the news." An alumni newsletter would not count, but the New York Times would. Absent a policy, it's up to the consensus to say what qualifies. In this case, none of the top ten papers in Florida are posting the death of a Gator QB. GCG (talk) 22:04, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
26K, so yes, it a micro paper. I fully expect this to hit the major papers by morning and be posted before i get a chance to reverse my vote. But it seemed like a good hill to die on. GCG (talk) 22:14, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support - After Improvements are completed. I don't understand though why the nominator not just add some sources and a few clean up edits. In it's current state the article is far from being RD ready.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ready I have removed the uncredited/specified/cited TV appearances and noted them on the talk page for future restoral when documented. The article has no other tags, and is ready for posting. μηδείς (talk) 05:05, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment no, still unreferenced television episodes. A blue link to TJ Hooker (for example) does not verify her appearance in the specified episode, no siree. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:27, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You are quite aware that a named and dated episode serves as its own primary source, this episode "A Kind of Rage" is dated as appearing in 1984 and Menzies is credited 1 minute and 33 seconds into the episode as guest starring (playing Dr. Kincaid). Your tendentiously false statement of policy and your unwillingness to verify primary sources is your personal problem, and not an impediment to posting this nomination. μηδείς (talk) 16:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not a personal problem, it's a problem for our readers (e.g. "Thornton's Account" isn't even mentioned on the Bonanza page, let alone her role in it). But thanks for your pointed accusation and personal attack. I'll add it to the list. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:47 pm, Today (UTC−5)
Menzies is named in the credits of that Bonanza episode. It is a primary source and no special knowledge is needed to read the English-language credits naming her. Blue links to articles are not relevant, our policy is, and per WP:PRIMARY: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." One needs no specialized knowledge beyond English literacy to read the names in an episode's credits. μηδείς (talk) 18:42, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)I'm just holding this nomination to the same standard as the one for Jim Nabors (which you also participated in). I did the work then and referenced the film and TV appearances and the same should happen here. --Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:38, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not ready, as the TV appearances are still largely unreferenced. Removing both tags: this isn't somehow more urgent than other RD nominations. Vanamonde (talk) 17:27, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: As a former head of state convicted for human rights abuses while he was president, Fujimori's conviction was huge. Pardoning him has been a big issue in Peruvian politics for years, especially as his daughter nearly won the presidency. And this comes just days after PPK survived impeachment and on Christmas no less. -- irn (talk) 03:45, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A very notable figure, not sure if the pardon is an anticlimax. Needs more than the current one-sentence update. Not to be insensitive, but are we going to see him on RD shortly? Need more info before deciding to support. μηδείς (talk) 04:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Fujimori's own article is clearly unsuitable as a target, and as mentioned above, the pardon "section" of the "arrest and trial" article is inadequate. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:15, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It meets both the updated content and the significance requirements. What more do you want from the article? I think the significance of the event is pretty clear (and thus far undisputed), and this is obviously an example of a recent event that relates directly to previous occurrences (the crimes, trial, and conviction), which the article covers pretty thoroughly. -- irn (talk) 17:35, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I remember one sentence, repeated, as being the update requirements. And I'm sure I understand the significance of pardoning someone who's going to die soon anyway, seems like a standard Christmas-political-vote-winning-manoeuvre, added with the additional aspects of corruption of Kuczynski's own doings, this is just kissing babies. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:47, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I just had another look at WP:ITN regarding "update requirements", and found The decision as to when an article is updated enough is subjective, but a five-sentence update (with at minimum three references, not counting duplicates) is generally more than sufficient, while a one-sentence update is highly questionable. which seems to be what I was recalling, as opposed to what you're claiming. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't answer my question. You also seemed to have missed If the recent/current event relates directly to previous occurrences (e.g. a major award honoring past achievements), the article can be considered sufficiently updated when there is consensus that it contains appropriate, up-to-date coverage of the entire chronology, irrespective of when the text was written or how many sentences pertain specifically to the recent/current event (apart from the requirement that it be mentioned). -- irn (talk) 17:59, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I want more coverage of why he was pardoned, what was wrong with him, what's the political background and context to the pardoning, who else was pardoned, etc etc etc. You have no consensus at all so your counter-claim is actually baseless. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:02, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt-blurb I think the story is notable (especially since we rightly didn't post the failed impeachment) and the alt-blurb is the right way to capture it. Davey2116 (talk) 22:19, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support on significance. Even if this action was taken purely for the optics of it, I'd say this is significant. Fujimori was a head of state, but had a far larger impact on his country than most presidents before or after. We seem to be considering several different targets, all of which are somewhat patchy at the moment. Vanamonde (talk) 11:19, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support revised alt-blurb. This should be posted (it is at the top of yesterday's Council on Foreign Relations e-mail newsletter for example), but Fujimori's article lacks references.Zigzig20s (talk) 11:37, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The e-mail newsletter itself reads, "Kuczynski's political opponents have denounced the move as part of a political deal. Fujimori's son, a lawmaker, withdrew his support for a parliamentary bid to impeach Kuczynski (DW) late last week.".Zigzig20s (talk) 11:57, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed and changed target on altblurb from Kuczynski to that. Now Support altblurb, as I think the impeachment vote is an important factor in reporting the pardon story.GCG (talk) 14:59, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the altblurb is better now. However, it's not clear if they are protesting because he was released from prison, or because of the alleged quid pro quo with his son.Zigzig20s (talk) 15:03, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus is a little hard to read here, but Marking Ready, as I think there is enough support for the new article as target, and opposition centers on quality of non-target article, which has been improved. GCG (talk) 11:02, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We're just giving a series of chronological facts, but we are not saying he pardoned him because he escaped impeachment (although some RS do).Zigzig20s (talk) 12:05, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Are you the only editor who objects to this altblurb? It's a big story and should appear on the main page. If you want to suggest another altblurb, please do it promptly.Zigzig20s (talk) 12:24, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Because I think it's neutral. It's chronological. If you have no altblurb to suggest, then it's not very productive. If we redact the first clause, we remove chronological information about the event, which is a form of POV.Zigzig20s (talk) 12:32, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The noting of the two events merely points out that very substantial events are occurring in rapid succession, which is in itself definitively correlated. If your wife leaves you, your dog dies, and you crash your pickup truck all on the same day, you're going to put all that in the same country-western song, even if there is no causation. Nevertheless, an admin is free to tweak as they see fit, but we have 8 in support, including 5 for the alt-blurb specifically, so we should not keep this off the MP due to one vote of opposition. GCG (talk) 12:37, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're missing the point, the causality is implied by the alt blurb and that's something we should avoid. Plus it's far too wordy for ITN. Plus you really can't count! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:39, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your opinion is that it implies causality. My opinion is that it does not. A difference of opinion does not mean I don't understand your point, nor does it justify personal attacks. You're better than that. GCG (talk) 15:01, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If the thrust of the sentence is that PPK sparked protests (which is how the alt-blurbs are written, with the verb being "sparks"), then we ought to mention the impeachment proceedings, because that's part of the reason for the protests. If we don't want to mention the impeachment proceedings, then we ought to focus on just the pardon and go with something like the first blurb. -- irn (talk) 15:37, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is another reason to have the lengthier altblurb with all the chronological facts. The protesters know all the facts. Why shouldn't our readers see them on the main page too?Zigzig20s (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Do you want "Protests erupt after Peruvian President Pedro Pablo Kuczynski survives an impeachment vote and pardons jailed ex-president Alberto Fujimori."? You are the only one who is keeping this from getting posted on the main page. Meanwhile, our readers can't find the article. So please tell us if this is fine by you. Otherwise, do we need complete approval from every editor to post an item?Zigzig20s (talk) 19:08, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't want the "impeachment" to be part of it, obviously, as I've stated a number of times. I'm clearly not the only one keeping this from getting posted. Readers can find the article. You need "consensus" for blurb and article quality, not individuals. I'm surprised you don't know that. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:44, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see only one oppose, from you. There appears to be consensus. The impeachment is a fact, get over it. We suggested altblurb2 without it and it's still not good enough for you apparently.Zigzig20s (talk) 21:35, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, I don't deny the impeachment happened, but you're missing the point again and again. The story is the pardoning, not what preceded it. If you don't understand that by now, I'm wasting more and more of my very valuable time, and I'm not going to do so any more. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:39, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you're wrong. The Council on Foreign Relations suggests they may be protesting because of a quid pro quo. We don't want to do that on Wikipedia, so a series of chronological facts seems the best way to represent what happened/what's happening. Before it's too late to be "in the news" any more!Zigzig20s (talk) 05:58, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There's no "maybe" there. The protesters themselves are saying that part of the reason for the protests is because they suspect a quid-pro-quo. [2] -- irn (talk) 20:25, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This has been marked Ready for some time now. Can we get a admin with better counting skills then I to weigh in here? I have just the five fingers on my left hand, but I can definitively count to one. Dissent on the impeachment piece, however minimal, should not prevent posting of the pardon itself. GCG (talk) 12:15, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Admin note I'm newly minted as an admin, and I'm UNINVOLVED in the above discussion. I see consensus to post something, although not necessarily in what to post. I do have reservation in posting either of the proposed blurbs due to NPOV issues. Are there any objections if I were to post as a blurb: "Peruvian President Pedro Pablo Kuczynskipardons jailed ex-president Alberto Fujimori."? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
SNOW CLOSE per WP:POINT and WP:RGW etc. It appears I misread this and it was actually intended to be serious. Apologies to the nom for not getting their point. That said, please don't do this sort of thing again. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:34, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: In 2015 we turned down "Santa is on his way", so I thought we might try telling the truth for a change - after all that's what at least some of us think we're supposed to be here for, if necessary per WP:IAR and the related 5th Pillar of Wikipedia. (Not all of us of course, see for instance WP:The Truth, WP:Righting Great Wrongs, WP:FLAT, etc)
My position is essentially the same as in 2015 when I wrote in reply to a claim that the issue wasn't serious:
So you think there is nothing serious about helping kids who are old enough to read Wikipedia to learn that Santa Claus is a fiction inflicted on them by lying adults? Tlhslobus (talk) 02:07, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
And do you also think that there is nothing serious about potential long-term benefits for Wikipedia in the form of the long-term gratitude of some of the kids who realize they have learnt the truth thanks to Wikipedia? Or do you think that the encyclopedia is improved by depriving itself of those long-term benefits? Tlhslobus (talk) 02:23, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
(I should perhaps add that I personally only really care about the potential benefits to the kids, but I'm also mentioning the potential benefits to Wikipedia (which for me are just a minor bonus) because they are real and because others here may really care about them, and it's probably a very good thing if they do so) Tlhslobus (talk) 02:56, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
I would also add, in reply to claims that such lies are just harmless fun, that I would like to know, if they really are such harmless fun, why I can still remember the mental distress caused by such lies to me as a kid more than half a century later (and I got off lightly compared to some kids who have been bullied as a result of such lies). I also remember getting plenty of non-distressing fun as a kid out of fairy tales and cartoon characters , without anybody telling me fairies and cartoon characters were real. And if I were still a Christian, as many editors here still are, I'd probably add something about the Gospel saying that Christ warned that it would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone around your neck than suffer the fate reserved for those who allow harm to come to little children.
Administrator note I am treating this as a humorous nomination intended to poke fun at one of the sillier customs of the season. In that vein I think it can be left open over night. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:32, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Ad Orientem. It seems I had to say systematic lying to kids (etc) was something serious in order to re-open this supposedly 'cute but clearly not serious nom', and now I have to pretend to agree that systematic lying to kids (etc) is hilarious in order to keep it open. I guess it just goes to show it's a funny old world. Tlhslobus (talk) 22:17, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, is this a genuine nomination or a bit of fun? If the former, it seems a fairly obvious oppose from me. — fox21:04, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ITN does not report things that *don't* happen, nor do we conduct media criticism or OR. And what about the presents, @Tlhslobus? How do you explain the presents? GCG (talk) 21:44, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The presents are brought by three Wise Men who are 300 years older than St Nicholas of Myra and Bari, which explains why scientists never find reindeer poo at the bottom of chimneys at Christmas, because camel poo is completely different.Tlhslobus (talk) 22:08, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Santa exists. Proof: Note that if the statement "X = A implies B" is true and A is true then that implies that B is true. Then let A be X and B the statement that Santa exists. So, X says that if X is true then Santa exists. Now if we just assume that X is true, then it's clear that Santa exists. What if X is false? Well, any statement of the form X implies B is always true if X is false, and since X = X implies B, this means that assuming X to be false implies that X is true, which is a contradiction. Therefore X can only be true, and therefore Santa actually exists. Count Iblis (talk) 22:31, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Article:AVIC AG600 (talk·history·tag) Blurb: In China, the AVIC AG600 (pictured), the world's largest amphibious aircraft, makes its maiden flight. (Post) News source(s):(BBC) Credits:
Comment it's in the news for sure. Ref #4 for china.org is used for weight and range but is not in the ref. Should be easy to fix. Haven't had time to check the rest. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 18:30, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - We post various first flights from time to time, this airplane is the biggest of its type (and an uncommon type at that), and it interests me personally. --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Incremental? other than being bigger than the last model, what else makes this noteworthy? Some true design or technological advance? μηδείς (talk) 04:26, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What else? Well, it's Chinese. A nation that has punched well below its weight aircraft manufacture-wise for years. Seems to be starting to catch up now though. Mjroots (talk) 07:13, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, it's Chinese! Had it been Irish support would have been a no-brainer? Sorry. Am leaning oppose unless I can be pointed to why this is a qualitative, not just a quantitative story. Otherwise we'd be posting the Dow and the US Federal Debt every week. μηδείς (talk) 15:53, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment not wishing to be dragged into a "Dow Jones hits xxxx" debate, in what sense is this the largest? And by how much? And which record does it break? I.e. how "incremental" is it? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:13, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
ShinMaywa_US-2 was the previous biggest (in use) I believe. Would make a good DYK - despite being only marginally bigger it can carry more than twice as many passengers. Its certainly a feat of modern engineering. Still SUBSTANTIALLY smaller than the Spruce Goose though. If we are going by size, the real big thing will be someone matching that. (Yes yes, I know its a flying boat) Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:46, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just to point out, the Beriev BE has a 'proposed' passenger only variant (BE-210) which would carry more people. The standard version does not. I don't believe a 210 has actually been put into production or even prototyped. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:08, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose owing to relatively low news coverage. For example, the source cited in the nomination is under Asia -> China, as opposed to World. Google also finds few mainstream newspapers covering this, although there are lots of specialist publications. Banedon (talk) 12:29, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC regularly rotates coverage on its front page without changing the location of the actual article. So while you would have to navigate to World/Asia/China today to find the article, it was more prominent when the article was posted. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:33, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Outside of the standard 'its in the news' and of sufficient quality, 3 reasons. 1. Its of a unusual type. Really big amphibious plane improvements do not come along that often. 2. Its from a country not known for its planes. 3. While physically its not much bigger it has significant advancements as standard over others in its type - its a big engineering improvement if not actual size. !vote is 'weak' because the above 3 really only contribute as to why it was covered in the news, and its getting a bit stale now. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:14, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: While probably another sabre-rattling, at least this was announced before the first nuke towards Washington might be out. And UNSC resolutions are treated more seriously than the UNGA ones. Brandmeistertalk10:54, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose North Korea has made numerous claims similar to this in recent years, last year they claimed that another resolution was the exact same thing, and this year, they claimed that when the US flew two bombers near its territory, that it was an “declaration of war”, despite this, they never respond in a manner as though war has been declared. Kirliator (talk) 14:45, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Sabre-rattling and North Korean rhetoric at it finest. As the previous user mentioned above, we actually had a post very similar to this back in October, which almost everyone opposed. This is fine if it were posted to DYK, but not ITN. SamaranEmerald (talk) 14:51, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - If we posted every moment of bellicose North Korea rhetoric on ITN, we literally would not have room to post anything else.WaltCip (talk) 15:11, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - North Korea would like to cordially invite you to fear North Korea - nothing new, nothing newsworthy. If North Korea actually instigate war, then we'll revisit. Stormy clouds (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Loony NK is already at war with the UN. That's what an armistice is, war in a state of suspended animation. There has been no peace treaty ending the Korean Conflict. You can't unfriend someone twice. μηδείς (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Weak support it might be Australia's greatest naval mystery, but that doesn't sound that impressive when one considers there are a couple hundred countries in the world. Still, I saw just enough coverage to support (that plus the fact that the current blurbs are pretty old). Banedon (talk) 12:38, 29 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support Major event. Article is in decent shape and well referenced. My only quibble is the current information section which smacks of a news ticker, which we are WP:NOT. I suggest removing it. The links to current information can temporarily be put in External Links. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:28, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose I know things are still happening, but the article contradicts itself with the numbers killed and isn't up to date (last update 0600 UTC 23/12). The Rambling Man (talk) 21:52, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Being the creator of this article, I'll try to add more as the hours go by and will make sure the number of fatalities are equal and well sourced. This storm is a 'big' one at the moment. I'll try my best to add in the info. :) Typhoon2013(talk)22:12, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, no problem, I just hope that before it gets posted (which it absolutely should) then when it goes up it's at least as internally consistent and up to date as possible. Of course, once it's on the main page, all bets are off! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:17, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ready certainly meets notability and update requirements, well sourced, tags are merely procedural and not a hindrance to immediate posting. Please let's not wait for this to be days old. μηδείς (talk) 02:28, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Posted slightly modified blurb. I'm not too happy about the "current information" section, but otherwise decent, and a significant event: so I'm not going to ignore consensus here. Vanamonde (talk) 03:05, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The digital cryptocurrency Bitcoin loses a third of its value within 24 hours. (CNN)
CSX Corporation names chief operating officer Jim Foote its new chief executive officer, succeeding E. Hunter Harrison who died last week. Harrison had started a restructuring campaign less than a year ago. (Reuters)
Apple Inc. faces backlash and lawsuits after admitting to slowing down the speed on some of their older phones deliberately. (CNET)(Business Insider)
Disasters and accidents
The Philippine Coast Guard reports that 252 passengers and crew have been rescued while five people were killed when a ferry capsized Thursday east of Manila. (Reuters)
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas says he will not accept any U.S. plan for peace with Israel, because it recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. (BBC)
The United Nations Security Council unanimously imposes new sanctions on North Korea that caps refined petroleum product imports to 500,000 barrels a year, a 90 percent cut, and demands the repatriation of North Koreans working abroad within 24 months. (Reuters)
Pro-independence parties retain their absolute majority in the regional parliament, while the unionist Citizens party secures the highest number of seats. (BBC)
The political situation means that there is no clarity as to which party is given the right to form the government. (BBC)
The voter turnout reaches a record high for a Catalan regional election of over 83%. (Reuters)
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Nominator's comments: Massive corporate tax cut, one of the largest in U.S. history for the top 1% of earners in America. Major social and economic implications. It is also the first major legislative victory for the GOP in the first year of the Trump administration, narrowly preventing them from looking like a laughingstock. WaltCip (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think not. Considering that Net Neutrality was posted due to its widespread coverage - and because this tax act received nonstop coverage for months in the media for being supposedly damaging to the vast majority of taxpayers in the US - it's way too premature to call this SNOW. The tides have changed on ITN recently and I think we've become a bit more inclusive of these sorts of stories.--WaltCip (talk) 16:10, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose this has dominated US news and "global significance" is a fake made up requirement. Still the bill is meaningless in terms of it's actual impact on real people. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 16:13, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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It's STILL closed, move on.
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The nominator can withdraw his nomination, but the bias above is astounding, given the repeal of the Obamacare tax, the number of corporations announcing bonuses, raising their minimum wage voluntarily to $15, billions promised in new investment and trillions in repatriated capital. That this was posted as an attack on a BLP is outdone only by the silly panic over the net neutrality non-event. We would have posted it if the federal government had forced corporations to accept the $15 minimum wage. But the fact that they can afford to voluntarily ("meaningless in terms of it's actual impact on real people") is seen as what? Shameful? μηδείς (talk) 23:27, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Shameful? I know that I would not support a nomination about changes to the Irish tax code, even if it completely overhauled everything, including HSE policies, and drove strong economic growth. To post the US's government doing such a thing would amount to little more than geocentricism, one of the things that ITN is stated to be against. All that happened here is that the government of one country changed its tax policy - the size of the country is not of important in my view. If it is, then yes, I guess that I am biased, given that I wish to prevent ITN transforming further into an exclusively US item. Stormy clouds (talk) 23:40, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The POV exhibited is shameful. The nomination was open for 25 minutes. Opposing this on grounds that it's legislation is fine--we should not have posted the net neutrality order either. But consider the difference. Here, dozens of large corporations have announced bonuses, raises for hourly employees, and new investment directly related to the biggest tax reform in the US since the 1980's, one that cuts the world's highest corporate rate in half, and we hear that this only benefits the 1%? This is both unorthodox in posting and withdrawal and the comments are, if one assumes good faith, ill-informed at best. I am not going to renominate it, if someone else does I will support it. I will also respect WaltCip's prerogative in withdrawing it. And although consensus in the past has been to leave nominations up for at least 6-12 hours, I won't comment further. μηδείς (talk) 00:55, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: First female mayor of Toronto. Article needs citations for the political career and an update, but it was just announced so that info should be readily available to add. Floydianτ¢15:45, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. There isn't a single sentence describing what she accomplished in her mayoral career, which is what she is notable for. All that's currently included about that is information about her election and then a sentence about political drama that she was wrongly associated with. I'm sure some obituary coverage will have information about what she accomplished while in office. Best, SpencerT♦C05:46, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
NO CONSENSUS This is the FOURTH time I am closing this. There is no consensus and there is no reasonable likelihood of that changing. THIS IS NOT TO BE RE-OPENED BY ANYONE OTHER THAN AN ADMIN. If you disagree with my close you may discuss it with me or request a review at WP:AN. I have already blocked one editor for their disruptive editing here. I would prefer not to have to do so again. [Note: I will be unavailable for the next several hours.] -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:22, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: This is certainly in the news, with possible ramifications as well. We posted UNGA 67/19. some work is still ging on to add reactions and debate but that hould be done soon. Updated, just the 1 section on debate is ongoing.Lihaas (talk) 08:07, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'd like to make several points here. Firstly, the blurb is unnecessarily indicative on the President of the United States when the decision doesn't affect his personal life but the foreign policy of the United States. Secondly, the United States have their freedom to choose how to shape their relations with other countries and it's not someone else's business to decide on the legitimacy of their decisions. Thirdly, it seems like the media don't give too much damn about this resolution and have put the news on the back burner. Finally, there is not even a sign of some long-lasting impact from this resolution that would make it worth posting.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:43, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to change the blurb, I would more than likely support it.
don't get other points as A. what country X/Y/Z wants/does/will do is irrelevant (and a bit POV a reason to support/oppose) and B. it IS in the news.Lihaas (talk) 10:09, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The blurb is factually incorrect, aside from not meriting posting. The UNGA is a toothless body and it certainly does not have the power to nullify US laws or decide where the US or any sovereign country places its embassy to another country. If countries start breaking diplomatic relations with the US(unlikely) over this, then that might merit posting, but not this toothless vote. 331dot (talk) 10:17, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weird from someone who [rightly] points to the merits/in the news other than the politics as an aside. [politics are irrelevant, ie the UNGA 67/19 posting.Lihaas (talk) 12:12, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but your comment does not entirely make sense to me. Opposition to the US move was already known and publicized at the time, this toothless resolution just restates it. 331dot (talk) 13:03, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It was already clear immediately after the decision that the rest of the world was opposed to the decision, this vote is just a formal expression of that. It changes little about this matter. 331dot (talk) 10:44, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fortunately actual change taking place is not a criteria for being on ITN. If we are going to tacitly support Trump's racist and divisive pronouncements by giving them front page coverage and then not give the bare minimum to the response, we are just being used as part of his hate machine. At this point it just looks like more of the pro-Israel bias that is widespread on ENWP. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:53, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is true that "actual change" is not a formal ITN criteria, but it is part of my personal criteria. It need not be part of yours, that is the whole point of this discussion. My opposition has nothing to do with Donald Trump, the US Government, or Israel, it has to do with the merits of this story. No ITN posting should be seen as an endorsement of any viewpoint. Readers interested in this toothless vote will learn of it from the article on their own. 331dot (talk) 11:00, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I admit no such thing, as every user has their own personal criteria, otherwise there would be no point for discussion on this page and we would simply use a formula and be a news ticker. We disagree and that's fine; I submit there is no further need to discuss this between us two. Thank you 331dot (talk) 11:09, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
OK, ok, change of topic...you should see the adorable little sweetie on my whatsapp DP...haven't met her in 3+ years and she has grown. Must be what 7 now ;) Lihaas (talk) 12:24, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Just doesn't seem to have hit enough worldwide headlines (round here the sustained coverage is on Damian Green being a dirty old man, but I wouldn't put that up for ITNC). I wonder if we're reaching "Peak Trump" and the world generally is just getting tired of his ranting and sticking him on mute. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)10:45, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support we posted the recognition, we should post this as well. Toothless or not, this is still the action of >100 countries, including countries such as Japan, NZ etc that are traditional US allies (hence the comment that they're sheep a couple of days ago). Banedon (talk) 11:46, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Almost all of the UNGA passes a resolution every year criticizing the US embargo against Cuba. These resolutions are meaningless and simply reflect what is already known. 331dot (talk) 12:53, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is a resolution where the GA determined the status of an entity in relation to itself, which is meaningless outside of the GA. They can pass a resolution making Mickey Mouse the leader of the body if they want to. 331dot (talk) 13:10, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support We posted the US declaration, which seemed excessive to me. How can we not post the reaction of basically every other country in the world? Seems an enormous case of WP:GEOBIAS here. AusLondonder (talk) 12:43, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So your argument is, we posted this initially even though it was excessive, so we should post this too? The reaction was already known at the time. 331dot (talk) 12:51, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"How the creation of Israel was helped by a UN vote in 1948 when, due mainly to the colonialism of the time, it had a much smaller mostly Western membership" seems irrelevant to our present discussion. Zigzig20s said "The UN is not ...", not "The UN has never been ...". Tlhslobus (talk) 09:08, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support The news I see comes from a very wide variety of sources, and I'm seeing a lot about this. In terms of significance the reactions should possibly have been in the same blurb, but would have meant sub-optimal language; so posting this separately is the next best option. Vanamonde (talk) 12:52, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - As long as we posted the U.S. declaration regarding Jerusalem, it seems fair that we would post the counter-declaration from the United Nations.--WaltCip (talk) 12:58, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Though I still oppose this, I've suggested an alt blurb as the UNGA has no power, effectively or otherwise, to nullify actions of the US or any sovereign nation. 331dot (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Symbolic vote, non-binding, changes nothing. Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital increased discord and the chance of war, which is why it was posted. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:06, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as purely a symbolic vote. Each nomination should stand on its own merits - the fact that we posted Trump recognizing Jerusalem, which was much more newsworthy, should not influence whether we post this entirely predictable response.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 15:38, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Absurd The general assembly can vote to effectively nullify pi if it wants. But where the US puts its embassy is between the US and Israel. μηδείς (talk) 15:55, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Muboshgu; Trump's decision has consequences, such that the UNGA felt the need to respond. Except that response does NOT have consequences. These are not comparable. GCG (talk) 16:02, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose The final blurb I would support as it is correct and newsworthy. The blurbs using the verb "nullify" I do not support as they are factually incorrect. The verb "nullify" means to make something null and void. The General Assembly doesn't have the legal authority under the UN charter to actually nullify the actions of a member state - a point which the sources are all very clear about. It can declare something null and void (in the same way I can declare all Wikipedia policies null and void if I want, but I can't actually nullify Wikipedia policies). Only resolutions of the Security Council are binding on member states. To nullify indicates a declaration carries with it actual effect, which is not correct in this case. Chetsford (talk) 16:49, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the article is not good quality, there are typos and some of the sources need to be improved - it is also very difficult for editors to improve it while it is under a 1RR restriction. Also, I think that including the announcement was enough, its not clear that this resolution with have any effect beyond reaffirming, and the standards for inclusion on ITN are usually pretty high.Seraphim System(talk)02:12, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment That it took four tries to get a blurb that didn't farcically inflate the importance of the vote should tell you something about its actual relevance. GCG (talk) 13:49, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This was expected as a result of Trumps decision, that the rest of the world would not like it. As this is just a vote of no binding results, it is an not unexpected result. The more recent vote on stronger NK sanctions is more lasting impact than this. --Masem (t) 17:23, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Highly significant, worldwide coverage. This is the most notable UN resolution in years, as the theatre around it with threats and screaming etc. from Trump attests to. It was widely interpreted by RS as a the world community's rejection of Trump. --Tataral (talk) 21:17, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Masem, also while the UN declares the recognition as null and void, Trump will still recognize it by heart, a decision the UN can do nothing about. Kirliator (talk) 21:54, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support, using Altblurb 3 or 4, but Oppose if using Altblurbs 1 or 2: I'm against altblurbs 1 and 2 because the vote hasn't "effectively nullified" anything. As for supporting posting anything, it's in the News and especially relevant per WP:WORLDWIDE. The only problem I see with posting this item is that such a posting might help mislead a few of our readers into mistakenly thinking that we were not part of the Western mainstream media (who have consistently ignored anti-Western UN GA votes (as being toothless, irrelevant, biased, etc), as the likes of Noam Chomsky frequently complain, ever since the GA stopped being a Western mouthpiece sometime around the 1960s thanks to decolonization - before then the same media regularly reported the GA as 'the moral conscience of the world'). Note that a few of our contributors (arguably including me, but, in my case, only to a very slight extent, as I'm 75% to 95% mainstream) are 'exceptions that prove the rule', as is also the case with a few of the contributors to the rest of our mainstream media. But I think the number of readers thus misled will be very small, so I've decided not to let that possibility trump (oops, sorry for that unfortunate POV-like double entendre) other considerations. Tlhslobus (talk) 09:33, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Votes here seem almost evenly split, with one (or two?) more on the plus side. Hard to derive consensus from that. On the other hand, this resolution shows how thin support for DT's current policy vis-a-vis Israel is among major U.S. allies, which seems very significant. Another consideration is that for many readers the Christmas holidays will overshadow any news that's the least bit old. So I'd urge an admin to decide now whether to post. (Marked for attn.) Sca (talk) 16:06, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I voted and cannot judge consensus here, but I will note that some of the opposition was due to the dodgy language about nullification in the original blurb, which has since been addressed by alternate blurbs. Also, "The US can put its embassy where it likes" does not IMO carry any weight as a reason for opposition. The opposition due to significance and level of coverage remain, of course. Vanamonde (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly not. Standard time out tactics. If you argue long enough it will go stale. Granted that would actually be a more relevant closure than 'no consensus' with zero reference to the points made. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:14, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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A ferry sinks off the coast of Luzon in the Philippines with 251 passengers on board. At least four people are reported to have died. The toll is expected to rise, as many are still missing. (NPR)
Judge Michael Bohren rules Anissa Weier will spend 25 years in institutional care after she was previously found not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect of the 2014 stabbing of her classmate. (WITI)
The CubanParliament approves moving the country's municipal elections to March, and the presidential election to April, when PresidentRaúl Castro is expected to step down. (ABC News)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: NASA astronaut. Not among the most famous, and the article does need more references; nominating in case that will prompt some more work on the article. Carcharoth (talk) 18:39, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man and Carcharoth: Cited the whole article. Let me know if you would like additional work done. Feel free to ping me whenever an astronaut dies and the article needs additional work, I am trying to get them done ahead of time, but do not get to them all in time. Kees08 (Talk)01:47, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Needs massive rewrite no longer a stub, but much of the prose reads as a very bad machine translation, and some of the facts cannot be parsed from what is written. A bilingual editor needs to put this in proper, idiomatic English before it can be posted. μηδείς (talk) 22:58, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Um, no. The article is not "good". The first sentence of the text reads "On December 21, 2017, 15:53 (KST), a vehicle in Duson Sporium caught fire that was ignited by first-floor ceiling of the parking lot". If this were sourced in Polish or Portuguese I could figure that out, but I can't parse the original Korean, so I can't fix, or even guess what this obvious machine translation is supposed to mean. Nothing of this poor quality is going anywhere near the front page, which is a shame, because they death count makes it appear worthy of notice. μηδείς (talk) 02:42, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I tried fixing and adding info to the page, however, my Korean is limited. Nevertheless, if you see something wrong, shouldn't you fix it, instead of complain that the article in no good and has a "poor quality"? CherryPie94 (talk) 21:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of this page is to evaluate nominations, and I have done so. I do indeed fix items when I have a basic working knowledge of the source language, including articles in Portuguese and Polish which I do not speak, but am familiar enough with in general that I can and can work with a machine translator. In this case I cannot do that, and it would be absurd of me to try.
Nor is it my job; the nominator has that responsibility (we don't just throw spaghetti at a wall here to see what sticks) and there is also a slot called "updated by" in the nomination template. The nominator, updater, and supporters, and those editing the article itself bear those responsibilities. If a general reader like myself who's been herding through ITN nominations for half-a-dozen years can't even guess what's going on by reading our article, it's not that reader's responsibility, but it's creators to fix it and seek help, which they can do using other resources like volunteer translators, and the ref and help desks.
I am not the big bad monster here. I am just warning the nomination's supporter's that it will fail if even sympathetic readers can't understand what is being said there. Also, it's Christmas in my neck of the woods, and the only reason I have time to type this right now is because the rest of the family are out shooting each other with Nerf guns. μηδείς (talk) 22:20, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have made a few improvements, but there still remain sentences like this: "The firefighters believed that most of the victims had inhaled toxic gases and died early in the fire, however, a controversy arose when a family member claimed that they receive a phone call from the victim four hours after the fire broke out. The bereaved families criticized the fire department for having missed the emergency rescue golden time." The tense issues and such phrases as "golden rescue time" are easily fixed, but I don't have the time to do this for the entirety of the article, which will soon be stale. It is a shame that a story like this will apparently not be posted while the death of three in a routine derailment was. μηδείς (talk) 04:50, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
I had too much work to do before leaving for my Christmas holiday to work on this. I don't have the time to devote to it now. Shame it's not in better shape than when I last saw it. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:50, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: The snap election was called after Puigdemont and his cabinet declared independence from Spain, and it was the intention to remove the separtist parties from power to quash and quell dissent. This result means that that ambition has failed, and that the future of the region is deeply uncertain. Notability is derived from the fact that this is a major development in a massive story from earlier in the year, and will unquestionably have long-lasting and profound ramifications on a global scale. Article is workable, but could do with updates as results are confirmed. Stormy clouds (talk) 00:07, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. It's still a regional election. If something happens that makes this more than a regional election, then we can post that. Banedon (talk) 00:16, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is obviously a highly notable election that eclipses the normal restraints customary for a sub-national vote. The BBC World Service devoted 30 minutes of uninterrupted coverage to news and analysis of it today alone, which is notably remarkable given it was a busy news day. It covered the front page of papers in Sweden (Dagens Nyheter) [3], Malta (Times of Malta) [4]), Denmark (Jyllands-Posten) [5], France (Libération) [6], and numerous other countries around the world, and is currently the leading headline on politico.eu. This election has implications beyond Catalona, including Spain and the whole EU generally. Chetsford (talk) 00:26, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose They're not an independent nation-state. Posting this on the main page would be POV-pushing, an activist way to promote their cause.Zigzig20s (talk) 02:16, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The newsworthiness of events is a factor of their relative importance to other events, and the interest displayed by people in them (see here [7] on page 2). The legal status of a thing is not a factor in evaluating the newsworthiness of that thing, either by the standards of ITN or by a consensus view as to what constitutes news. If it were, there would be no such thing as crime reporting.Chetsford (talk) 02:36, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The stated purpose of ITN is to "help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news". The legal status of Catalonia is irrelevant to a determination as to whether or not the election was "in the news". Chetsford (talk) 02:49, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - significant step ahead for pro-independence. Election was regional but stil an election about the independence of Catalonia more so than anything else.BabbaQ (talk) 02:18, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The election is not an anticipated event. It is an event that has, in fact, occurred. The fact that Karl used a past-tense verb is not enough to invoke CRYSTALBALL. Chetsford (talk) 02:56, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support this was not an "illegal" unilateral referendum. It was a frankly authoritarian dictat imposed by the central government after standing law had been overridden in the name of an "emergency". Given that alone it is noteworthy, and given the round denunciation of Madrid and Felipe in the results, it's a hell of a lot more monumental than a roleback of Net Neutrality. μηδείς (talk) 02:54, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
support per Chetsford and Medeis, regardless of outcome. When ready as it is had no porose yet. so Franco is dead alas, as for that matter is spain when the Basques and Canaries follow, not to mention Scotland and South Tyrol coming near you...Lihaas (talk) 05:24, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a clearly notable election with wide media coverage. Those claiming that it's simply a regional election, thus marginalising what was happening in the last three months, seem to have a point.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:04, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - yes, it's a regional election, but one with potential for major changes ahead, and of Continent-wide importance far in excess of its locality. This is a clear case of WP:IAR needing to be invoked and the story posting. Mjroots (talk) 08:11, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Stormy clouds. But the issues I mention below are still not addressed (and regretably I will not be attempting to fix them myself per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY, due to unnecessarily unpleasant previous memories of unsuccessfully attempting to improve a Catalonia article).Tlhslobus (talk) 16:34, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle but oppose for now per Lihaas. The Aftermath section is unreferenced, and the article lacks any prose discussion on the results and their implication. — Amakuru (talk) 10:15, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am convinced this is notable as per Mjroots above. It's not ITNR and it shouldn't be but that doesn't mean it can't pass the "ordinary" ITNC criteria. I haven't yet checked article quality (I'm phone only right now and prefer to do that on desktop). --LukeSurltc13:11, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the blurb, I don't think it's accurate to say Puigdemont leads these parties. Puigdemont is the leader of Junts per Catalunya but there are 3 different parties which make up a pro-independence majority. Also describing him as "exiled" is misleading, as this is self-imposed. Without qualification it makes it sound like Spain expelled him from the country. Lastly the pro-independence parties maintained rather than gained a majority. All of these issues are dealt with in the alt blurb I've just suggested. --LukeSurltc13:18, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Exile is almost always self-imposed - like Puigdemont, another leader in exile would be free to return to the country but, also like Puigdemont, would very likely face charges and possible imprisonment there, which is why they are regarded as in exile. Anyway, it's up to 3rd party sources to determine that, not us, and plenty do call him exiled:[8][9][10] On the other points, you're probably right, and on that level I agree that your new blurb is better. — Amakuru (talk) 13:39, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the blurb makes it unclear what the election was. Given the big recent news from Catalonia, people might assume it was another referendum on independence. As it was actually the autonomous communities parliament, the significance is nuanced. The 'independent' parties were participating in an election sanctioned by Spain and continue to at least implicitly acknowledge Spanish sovereignty. Don't think it is ripe for ITN and given the muddled situation too nuanced to be blurbed. --Klaun (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Semantically, an election and a referendum are different ideas. There is no such thing as an "independence election". The participating parties were in an election forced by Spain, and the election was firmly divided along independence lines. The Home Rule League acknowledged British sovereignty, yet this did not make their stance nuanced. This is a clear victory for pro-Catalan independence, even in the face of harsh Spanish criticism and come-downs, and so is not particularly nuanced in my view. Stormy clouds (talk) 15:36, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support on Notability, Oppose for now on Quality: (Although there are still some changes I'd like to see, as indicated below, I'm satisfied that quality has now improved enough for me to be able to change to Support) At the very least we need more text explaining the results, and in particular, we need an explanation for how our Infobox shows the Pro-Independence parties up 3 seats when they are actually down 2, as pointed out in The Guardian, and as I have already asked here at the Talk Page. We probably also need to spell out that the Pro-Independence parties are again short of a majority of the popular vote, and their percentage is actually down (seemingly by about 0.4%, though there may be rounding errors in that figure). Regretably I will not be attempting to fix these issues myself per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY, due to unnecessarily unpleasant previous memories of unsuccessfully attempting to improve a Catalonia article. Meanwhile, could somebody please ping me when they feel these issues have been fixed, so that, assuming they are indeed fixed, I can then decide to switch my vote to Support. Tlhslobus (talk) 15:52, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the great work, Stormy clouds. Although there are still some changes I'd like to see, I'm satisfied that quality has now improved enough, so I've now changed to Support. The additional changes I'd like to see is by how much the Pro-Independence percentage popular vote is down, with both percentage (47.49%, only in the lead last time I looked) and change appearing at least in the Aftermath section (and change possibly also in the lead, where 47.49% is already found). Pro-Independence down 2 seats should perhaps also appear in the lead, if it's not is already there. Tlhslobus (talk) 17:50, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly oppose inclusion of "how much the Pro-Independence percentage popular vote is down" since no such figure exists. This week's vote was an election to a regional legislative body, not a referendum on independence. Including "how much the Pro-Independence percentage popular vote is down" could only be accomplished by assuming that each individual voter voted on a candidate based solely on their position on the political status of Catalonia, and ignored any other issues being debated during the campaign such as road construction and maintenance, education funding, or marginal tax rates. Chetsford (talk) 18:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not that it matters much now that the item is posted (unless somebody wants it pulled), but I was simply using inaccurate shorthand for the percentage vote for Pro-Independence parties, which is reported in reliable sources such as The Guardian link I gave above (which they gave as 47.5% at the time (with 1% of the vote still to be counted), adding that it once again failed to reach 50%). So I expect there are now many reliable sources now mentioning that the figure is down on 2015, and, assuming that is the case, it should be reported, per WP:NOTCENSORED (and, if necessary, WP:IAR, etc). Tlhslobus (talk) 00:26, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose results section needs prose update. Opinion polls prose has no refs. Campaign section needs prose. Stances table has no refs. Insignificant local election, but also not MP quality. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 15:57, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support the "aftermath" section contains the necessary prose as other commentators noted was needed. My comments on notability are above. This is ready to post. --LukeSurltc20:07, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Pull@Ad Orientem: could you take a look please? Unless I'm missing something there are still missing refs (maybe the prose update for results standard has gone out the window but surely we're not ok with whole unreferenced tables). --CosmicAdventure (talk) 18:21, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The tables are mostly unreferenced or their referencing is unclear. I have dropped a note on the article talk page and will give a little grace period in case this can be quickly fixed. But if the referencing is not improved fairly quickly I will pull it until this issue is corrected. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:20, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Ad Orientem: I reviewed those before posting. Do not pull, as the sources are provided at the bottom of the table. Providing individual citations for each box is not required by policy or standard... doing so would cost hundreds of hours of volunteer time on each article such tables exist in. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 19:29, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Coffee. Improvements are ongoing and I am not pulling it. The results tables are good now and the only other three that are not adequately referenced are being worked on. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:58, 23 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose. Where are you getting "terrorist incident"? The authorities are taking great pains to make it clear that this isn't a terrorist attack and that it's being treated as a straightforward road accident in which the driver was under the influence of drugs. ‑ Iridescent11:52, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This isn't a "mass civilian attack", it is as Iridescent describes it. No one has died. I would question whether it even merits an article. 331dot (talk) 12:01, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I equate "mass civilian attack" with "terrorist attack". I would also question how "deliberate" it was if the alleged suspect had a mental illness. 331dot (talk) 12:14, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Not newsworthy in the slightest, owing to the lack of deaths and the lack of a terroristic motive. It was already a stretch getting the AmTrak crash up there. --WaltCip (talk) 12:11, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] Impeachment of Pedro Pablo Kuczynski[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose Prose makes the impeachment sound like a formality, then the vote fails... there could be a story there. But what happened with the vote? Don't they have whip counts in Peru? It sounds like they were trying to force a resignation without having the coalition for impeachment. If the threat was just braggadocio, there's not enough here to post. GCG (talk) 15:45, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is a process that has been set up and voted, then it happened, and is sufficiently relevant. Other versions of Wikipedia named it as news. – User:Ravenanation
Oppose. Doesn't seem to be significantly in the news. We didn't post a recent failed vote to impeach Donald Trump which also was minimally in the news. It also doesn't seem like this vote was technically on the merits of impeachment, if I understand it right. 331dot (talk) 16:02, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is different from the impeachment of Donald Trump, this is a process that has been set up and voted on and not a proposal. – User:Ravenanation
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The European Court of Justice (ECJ) rules that Uber is officially a transport company and not a digital service, thus requiring it to accept stricter regulation and licensing within the European Union. The case arose after Uber was told to obey local taxi rules in Barcelona. (The Guardian)
16-year-old Palestinian Ahed Tamimi, daughter of Bassem al-Tamimi, is arrested on December 19 in a pre-dawn raid on her home in Nabi Salih by the Israeli army after being suspected of assaulting an Israeli soldier. Later in the day, her mother Nariman is allegedly arrested too when visiting her daughter at a police station. (Al Jazeera)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: I'd previously nominated this article in the summer after the legislation was first proposed and the EU threatened to initiate Article 7. At the time it did not pass for ITN as it was determined a mere threat to initiate Article 7 was not newsworthy and it should be held until the Article 7 process actually was initiated. Edit - to clarify, the Article 7 process has not run its course. The newsworthiness here is that this is the first time in the history of the European Union that this extraordinary step - characterized by one of the sources as "the nuclear option" - has been formally initiated. Chetsford (talk) 06:38, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's correct. There is a three-part process for suspension of a state's franchise: first, a proposal to declare a "clear breach" must be tabled; second, a "clear breach" must be declared; third, the European Council can suspend voting rights. Currently the Commission has tabled a proposal to declare a "clear breach" which is the first time in the history of the EU this has occurred. Chetsford (talk) 10:29, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – for now. As Brandmeister notes, it's only the beginning of the EC "clear breach" process, which reportedly may take up to three months. Also promulgate is not a synonym for enact or implement; it means basically to announce or propose. But Duda has signed the bills into law. Sca (talk) 15:15, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The president of Poland first signs a bill and then, by decree, orders its promulgation in the official gazette which must occur prior to its effective date. This is the final step in lawmaking and is what has occurred. In practice, this is a one-step process and, because the gazette is itself a state institution, the president is in fact promulgating via the gazette and in common parlance in most parliamentary republics in the non-English speaking world this is what is said instead of the absolutely literal "the such-and-such legal journal promulgated". However, I'd be fine substituting the equally correct - albeit less specific - signs for promulgates if it's less likely to create confusion. (Implementation is a different matter entirely and pertains to the functional application and enforcement of a law, which is accomplished by the civil service or the responsible ministers, or the two in concert. Enactment is the whole process of lawmaking from parliamentary resolution to presidential signature to promulgation by presidential order; the president alone cannot enact an law.) Chetsford (talk) 16:31, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I see that is an additional meaning of promulgate. In my experience, though, in the English-speaking world it's more typically used in a context which doesn't mean finalize or enact. (Example: "The border changes promulgated at the Potsdam Conference." In that case, they were proposed by Stalin at Potsdam but final enactment was supposed to have occurred at postwar peace conference that never was held. The new borders weren't recognized de jure by the West until decades later.) Sca (talk) 17:18, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the previous nomination. If we say wait till this happens, and it happens, we shouldn't be changing our minds either. Besides, Brexit was about invoking article 50, and we've posted multiple blurbs on that even though the UK hasn't actually left the EU yet. Banedon (talk) 00:21, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Houthis say that they launched a Volcano H-2 missile targeting at the Al-Yamamah Palace in the Saudi capital city of Riyadh. According to the Saudis, the missile was intercepted south of Riyadh and caused no casualties. (Reuters)
The Secretary-General of the OIC, Yousef Al-Othaimeen, says the repeated launch of ballistic missiles at Saudi Arabia served to confirm the Houthis' "hostility and criminality" and further claimed "The Houthis are trying to destabilize Saudi Arabia and the entire region." (Anadolu Agency)
An NTSB spokesperson says that preliminary indications are that the train was travelling at 80 miles per hour (130 km/h) on a 30 miles per hour (48 km/h) track. The Positive train control (PTC) safety system was not operational on the train, says Amtrak. (BBC)
A tour bus crash in Mexico leaves at least 12 people dead and 18 injured. The cause of the crash is under investigation. (The Washington Post)
The United StatesHouse of Representatives passes the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017 by 227 votes to 203. After being sent to the United States Senate for a vote, the Senate's parliamentarian found that several provisions in the House bill violated Senate rules, which forced the House of Representatives to call a second vote on an altered version of the legislation that has the violating provisions removed. The second vote by the House of Representatives is expected to take place on December 20, 2017. (NBC News)
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Nominator's comments: Note that this is not just a belief that NK was behind it (as was made in the month-so out from the attack) but a formal declaration, that they are backing with yet-public evidence shared with the other countries, with at least the US expecting the UN and other countries to help take action (read, sanctions) against NK for this. Masem (t) 16:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Added comment I'm working to try to remove a lot of duplication in the article (I think there was a merge some time in the past, so a lot of info duplicated). But the sourcing is there, it's more a preliminary quality issue I'm fixing. --Masem (t) 17:24, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree that these are claims, and until their reports are made public, difficult to see how confident they are, but it's not so much whether there is the smoking gun, but that this is a formal accusation by multiple countries towards NK, which is geared to try to urge UN to take some type of action. --Masem (t) 17:51, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose unless something actually happens. To those who have been paying attention, this whole saga involving North Korea has been all hat and no cattle. Officials talk a big game about ratcheting up sanctions or taking "unilateral action" but it never amounts to anything.--WaltCip (talk) 17:53, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose China and Russia are practically their only trading partners, if they aren't onboard with sanctions it is just so much saber rattling. --Klaun (talk) 19:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Unless you're implying that Donald Trump has authority over other countries such as the UK, Japan and Australia, that's plainly incorrect. Banedon (talk) 22:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If world leaders held themselves as sacrosanct and above critique, even on en.wiki, we would be in a dystopia. Or the country who is integral to this nomination. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:48, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Though in all seriousness, I don't feel that, even if true, the fact that North Korea was behind WannaCry is worthy of ITN. Both the attack and the revelation of whodunnit, especially given the inability of the West to impose punishments, are of minimal lasting impact. Ran riot earlier in the year, and got posted then. Does not need a reiteration now, in my view. So, I'll stick with oppose. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:40, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support on the one hand there's little the US can do to change NK's behavior [13]. On the other hand if indeed there's little that can be done, then there's not likely to be more significant developments. If this is worth posting at all, now is the time to do so. This is also the collective action of multiple different countries, plus it's seeing lots of coverage (Googling for "Wannacry" turns up pages upon pages of results within the past 24 hours). I'm willing to support this. Banedon (talk) 22:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose is this an act of war? The US and UK are acting as if it's an act of qvetch. When two permanent UN Security Council seat holders and nuclear powers do nothing, it's not news. μηδείς (talk) 01:55, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, stale. According to the article, the North Koreans have been the main suspects since June. Because this accusation does not get the world much closer to the truth, this news is stale. Abductive (reasoning)06:13, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Texas Rangers baseball pitcher Cole Hamels and his wife Heidi donate their mansion and 100 acres of land in southwestern Missouri, valued at nearly $10 million, to Camp Barnabas, a charity with camps in the Missouri Ozarks for children with special needs and chronic illnesses along with their siblings. (New York Post)(ESPN)
Charlottesville Police Chief Alfred Thomas announces his retirement. He was previously criticized for his poor handling of the rally and counterprotests. (NPR)(WTVR)
Provisional oppose for what I'm well aware are The Wrong Reasons, before anyone shouts at me. If this goes on the main page and Perpignan crash doesn't, it will cause a lot of legitimate complaints of apparent systemic bias. Since the likelihood is near-as-zero that Perpignan will be in a fit state to post, I don't feel we should be running this one either. In most circumstances, OTHERSTUFFDOESN'TEXIST isn't a valid argument, but since the DuPont train derailment article itself is fairly poor quality I don't really feel it's appropriate to run it in these particular circumstances. ‑ Iridescent18:34, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. While I admit to the logic of the beginning your argument, Perpignan crash is only 3,817 bytes as opposed to the DuPont train derailment which is 11,719 bytes. If the article was nominated for inclusion, would require much needed expansion. I am not saying it isn't notable, but the separation in articles qualities is already evidence of any potential systematic bias complaints. ―Matthew J. Long-Talk-☖20:31, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, Iridescent, it was hardly an "embarrassing piece of crap"™ then. It had structure and was fully referenced. It was short as the story had not long broken. I'm well aware that one side effect of nominating an article at ITN is that many editors will pile in and improve it, as has happened in this case. Regardless of whether or not it gets posted, my nominating the article means that Wikipedia as a whole has benefited. Mjroots (talk) 20:45, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the item is "in the news", and unlike motor-vehicle incidents these types of accidents are fairly rare, and the article is decent (without even a spelling or grammar error!). Normally I'd support, but I'm getting rather weary of seeing ITN post utterly irrelevant disaster stories based purely on "significant number of deaths". Crappy planes operated by two bit airlines crash, trains derail, the Taliban shoots up whatever, it happens. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 18:39, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Death toll appears to be up to 6, and expected to rise. Moreso, what's troubling was this was the inaugural run of the train on this new stretch. As a note to Iridescent, no one has nominated that Perpignan crash, so trying to compare, right now, is apples to oranges. (I spot checked, and my gut would say to post). --Masem (t) 18:40, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose at least for now, as Masem notes, the death toll is low but is expected to rise within the coming hours or so. I will likely reconsider then, but at the moment the disaster’s death toll is too low for ITN for the moment. Kirliator (talk) 18:46, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - In the hierarchy of ITN-newsworthiness for crash events, trains usually occupy the lower tiers, particularly with one such as this where there are so few casualties.--WaltCip (talk) 19:06, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Support high speed trains do not regularly crash, even less regularly do they kill people while doing so. That this happened on the inaugural passenger service on the line adds to its newsworthiness. There is no death count requirement for ITN (and nor should there be). Thryduulf (talk) 19:08, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf, be aware that "high speed train" has a very different meaning in the US (where because of track-sharing with freight haulage trains run far more slowly than in Europe or Asia) than it does in the rest of the world. The train in question had a maximum speed of 79mph. ‑ Iridescent19:34, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support if this happened in the UK or Germany or France, it should be at least nominated, and probably should be posted. Getting up towards 100 casualties and half a dozen deaths, plus the added interest of the inaugural run, this is probably not a bad shout for ITN. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:19, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, I personally find polls like these to be mostly fruitless. Even if the consensus is in favor of the supporters, it is largely a short-lived victory as from my various visits to the site’s main page, it often times gives overtaken by other nominations within the next month, and many people often forget as though such a vote pertaining to said event ever occurred sometime afterwards. In addition, many of these events fade from the public’s eye after a while as well, and are eventually forgotten overall. 97.46.1.130 (talk) 19:44, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I may be mistaken, but I think "it often times gives overtaken by other nominations within the next month" belies a misunderstanding of the ITN process. Items in the ITN template on the main page are listed solely in chronological order (newest to oldest), moving down the ordering as new items are added above. Any item, regardless of its status, is likely to remain on for about a week until it eventually is too old to be listed. --LukeSurltc19:56, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm perplexed that there is no clear criteria here for discussion. This event is definitely "in the news" but lots of editors here state that isn't enough. It has to be of long term significance, they proffer, which is sort of at odds with "news" given that is transient at its core. And given the standing policy of including sports events here... the whole long term significance argument seems to fall flat. So how can there be more clarity? Frankly, I see lots of articles that seem to hang around the ITN section for quite a while. It doesn't really seem very timely. --Klaun (talk) 20:00, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support The purpose of the In the News section is "To help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news." As editors we have the duty to provide every reader the information they need to know immediately. This gives notice to the reader that the topic of this article may soon affect various other world events. It is clear, that the day of such an event happening, we will see a lot of coverage. The debate on further notability or the need to merge the article must come later. It is the most catastrophic derailment in the United States since the 2015 Philadelphia train derailment. Many of these tragedies happen for reasons that have yet to be discovered (as evidenced by the current 2 year litigation of the previously mentioned article). The President has already addressed the nation that this is proof of a need for a shift in US Domestic Infastructure policy. The Governor of Washington has declared a state of emergency.[1] For these many reasons, this article is a strong candidate for appearing in the In the News section and possibly on the front page.―Matthew J. Long-Talk-☖20:05, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the ITN section is on the front page, and yes, we know what the purpose is, but I'm certainly not searching for it, I know it's in the news but it's not that big a deal in a global sense. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - If this is posted, alt-blurb 2 is WAY too long as far as ITN blurbs go. A summary of the event is all that is needed.--WaltCip (talk) 20:13, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly every accident involving commercial forms of mass transportation (trains, planes, and boats), even without deaths, are going to be cataloged and investigated by agencies like the NTSB, FAA, etc. so that the issues that led up to the accident aren't repeated in the future, to determine liability, etc. In such a case, if there are significant deaths or injuries, that makes the accident notable by our standards. It may not be in the news outside of local papers in a few days, the results of the NTSB investigation may never be widely reported, but the accident remains logged and its report of the investigation will continue well beyond that. --Masem (t) 21:58, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Do you remember Puisseguin road crash? It was nominated back when it happened too. It seemed to tick all the boxes: relatively high death toll, uncommon event, etc, and was only not posted because the article quality was poor. Two years later, what kind of lasting impact came out of the crash? Nothing, as far as I can see. It'd be especially ironic if your answer to the "do you remember ..." question is "no". Banedon (talk) 22:19, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Pull I have opposed posting accidents like this in the past, and here there is no hint of crime or misconduct, nothing to make this other than the unfortunate but statistically run of the mill transportation accident. Were there signs of sabotage, or even hints of criminal behavior I might entertain it. But there isn't. Unless something else breaks, this is obviously undue weight. μηδείς (talk) 01:50, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I assure you, doing 80 on a 30 corner with a train is a *hint* of a crime somewhere, either directly through human intervention or indirectly through equipment failure. A genuine no-fault actual brakes failure is low down the list of probability here. Only in death does duty end (talk) 17:56, 20 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You can "assure" me all you like, Mr. Mackey, but your opinion is BS, neither RS nor compatible with BLP. You need to stop implying criminality with your crystal ball. Meanwhile 8 Americans and 12 total are killed in Quintana Roo, but that's Mexico, so it doesn't really matter, one suspects. μηδείς (talk) 03:02, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It really doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to determine that there was at minimum some criminal negligence in play which led to this crash. Trains don't just accidentally via mechanical fault go 80 MPH down a 30 MPH stretch.--WaltCip (talk) 16:53, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support notability is on the border of post/don't post, but the article has good quality and goes into good depth for the topic. SpencerT♦C16:49, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Election results only announced now, with Juan Orlando Hernández being declared a contentious winner. Articles need minor work, though significance is clear. Stormy clouds (talk) 09:50, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree strongly regarding significance, and I think that the announcement of the final result makes a good blurb for ITN. But the article could really use some help - I've been trying to keep it updated, but there's a lot missing. Off the top of my head, there's nothing in there regarding the police going on strike, the physical attacks on the press, or the announcement of the final results last night and the reaction to that. (I'm really curious to see how today's national strike plays out.) And that's all just one section of the article, the rest of the article is scant, to say the least, especially background and international reaction. But I don't think it would take too much work to get it there. -- irn (talk) 14:46, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Highly notable news story getting significant coverage worldwide and with an unpredictable outcome. Getting it in the news section will help any weaknesses caused in the article. ♫ RichardWeisstalkcontribs16:37, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support – A separate section could be created surrounding protests if they build up momentum, but overall this is main page material.--ZiaLater (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Changing from Ready to Attention needed. The major news here appears to be focused on the controversial aspect of this election, but this isn't covered comprehensively in the article. More eyes are needed for this entry. Alex Shih (talk) 20:08, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt 2 only when ready. I think the blurb has to mention that the official results have been doubted due to the irregularities, and that the OAS has called for a new election. Neutralitytalk23:40, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose good faith nom. This is a blip. It has all of a paragraph in the linked article which in the long run may be more than it deserves. If it were it's own article I doubt it would survive AfD. The long term significance of this event is likely to be somewhere between trivial and non-existent. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:44, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
When I reviewed the article, it didn't even mention his death which, if it's "such big news", should be covered in some detail. Wolff's article at least mentioned his death in the prose. No-one said anything about a "section about his death". Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:59, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Only as a note, as long as we have reliable foreign sources about a notable person's death, that still works for the purposes of RD posting. There is no requirement that English sources must cover the death - it helps, but not required by any means. --Masem (t) 22:55, 18 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Considering the massive spike in page views for this article (far higher than for all the other deaths currently highlighted [16]), it would look a little odd if this wasn't mentioned. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:21, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Posted This was a huge disappointment. When I first read the RD title I was about to break out a bottle of champagne. Alas it's the wrong Kim Jong---. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:20, 19 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose What's so important about $20,000? If anything, a story related to BitCoin would be if that valuation crashes as this news article suggests would be more appropriate for ITN. --Masem (t) 14:36, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose $20,000 is paltry in terms of size, in addition bitcoin is rarely used on the surface world and web and is mainly used as currency for drug trafficking. Kirliator (talk) 15:26, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, an arbitrary threshold. Unfortunately I don't think the meteoric rise in BitCoin's value is something that can fit into the ITN framework. --LukeSurltc15:55, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose I'm not seeing this story "in the news" anywhere, which is strange, because bitcoin has been popping up a lot in recent weeks. Also the target article doesn't do much to explain the current price bubble. As a reader, if I click a bold link, I want details about that link, not a wall of text about the blockchain. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 16:31, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose simply because the threshold is arbitrary. The current bubble is very interesting and definitely worth reading up on, but it doesn't fit in the ITN framework, as LukeSurl said. Also, "History of bitcoin#Prices and value history" may be a much more interesting target if we were to do something with this. ~Mable (chat) 16:38, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – The crash, if and when it comes, would be worth a blurb. (Must confess I really don't understand the crypto-currency concept; as far as this poor mortal can figure out it's just a cyberized ponzi scheme.) Sca (talk) 16:57, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Five people are killed and at least 15 missing in a mudslide in Villa Santa Lucía, a remote village in southern Chile, after more than 4.5 inches (11.4 cm) of rain the previous 24 hours. PresidentMichelle Bachelet declares a state of emergency. Sunday is the run-off election for Chile's next president. (BBC)(The Washington Post)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
A 17-volume report detailing children's experiences of sexual abuse in Australian institutions is published. It concludes that the issue is systemic and "not a case of a few rotten apples". It contains 189 new recommendations, for a total of 406. This report finalizes a five-year Royal Commission inquiry. (Ten News)
The most recent U.S. government statistics show a marked increase in the yearly number of deaths by drug overdose. The number for end May 2017 is 66,324, up 17% when compared to the previous 12-month period. (U.S. News & World Report)
Former economy ministerAlexey Ulyukaev is found guilty of soliciting a $2 million bribe from Rosneft's Igor Sechin. He is sentenced to 8 years in prison. Ulyukayev is the most senior serving official to be arrested in decades. He previously denied the charges, saying he’d been "set up". (Reuters)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Colombia's biggest narcoticsgang, Clan del Golfo (AGC), declares a cease-fire in effect since December 13. They say the gesture is meant "to contribute to a full, total and lasting peace." The Colombian government says that it welcomes the move but also that it will continue their pressure on the organization. (GMA Network)
Israeli company Teva Pharmaceutical, the world's largest generic drug manufacturer, is restructuring in order to pay off debt, and will be cutting its work force by about a quarter. (Reuters)
A firefighter is killed while battling the Thomas Fire, the second death linked to the fourth largest wildfire in California history. (The Washington Post)
The Supreme Court of Justice of Guatemala rules not to allow the implementation of a usage manual from the Procuratorate of Human Rights for talks and workshops about sexuality due to the document's views on abortion, which, except risk for mother's life, is illegal in the country. (Prensa Libre)
The main opposition party of Peru, Popular Force, which has the absolute majority in Congress, gives the presidentPedro Pablo Kuczynski less than 24 hours to present his resignation. This comes after it revealed that he received large sums of money from the Odebrecht construction company, through a financial advisory firm of his property, in exchange of the concession of important infrastructures for the country. (Reuters)
It was posted with strong consensus. Just because it was briefly pulled on quality, doesn't mean we start debating again. Stephen22:21, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: I know this is strictly how Internet communication is handled solely within the US (and expect !opposes on that), but given the importance of the US's tech sector on the Internet globally, this will have impacts on global Internet systems. Masem (t) 18:28, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support on notability This is all over the news and will have ramifications not just in the US. However, the article has many missing references so it's not ready to post. Davey2116 (talk) 18:53, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Even though this is U.S. specific, the amount of media attention both online and offline surrounding this particular event has been astronomical. It's hard to go anywhere without hearing the words "Net Neutrality" in any context.--WaltCip (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support in agreement with the above statements. I do think that, especially with an online website like Wikipedia, this is a very important ITN topic, though I would add another source for confirmation. Otherwise, it's ready to go. Thanks, User:ST15RMwikipedia19:18, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support I don't think it should be necessary for me to go into detail on why the repeal of net neutrality in the United States is a highly notable story. This is an unprecedented change in FCC policy. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 19:59, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This comment should not be considered a support or oppose; I get that this is exploding in the news and affects many people directly or indirectly, but is this that radical a change in policy? The current regulations were only implemented a few years ago and this change merely reverts back to the prior policy. Someone will likely sue in an attempt to stop it, states are trying to pass their own net neutrality laws(which the FCC is also trying to stop) and it will almost certainly be changed once a Democratic president is in office who can tip the balance of the FCC. Just some thoughts. 331dot (talk) 21:20, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Without going deep into the history: while the repeal is revoking the 2015 order, there had been various regulations in place that enforced net neutrality since at least 2010 (around the same time we started hearing providers wanting to make fast-lanes for traffic); the 2015 order came by because courts found that a previous FCC order that enforced NN was improper, so the FCC then raced to correct that with the 2015 order. This is effectively the first time that there has been no net neutrality protection on the US internet infrastructure while internet providers have been pushing for tiered services. --Masem (t) 21:28, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is my last comment here since Wikipedia is not a forum and the request has been posted, but in response to 331dot the idea that this only goes back to 2015 is a complete falsehood. This goes back to 1996 where lawsuit after lawsuit from 98 to 02 to 07 to 2010 to 2011 to 2014 all pushed the FCC towards writing net neutrality into law. The principle behind it is as old as the internet itself. You're right that there will be lawsuits, but it's absolutely "radical." BrendonTheWizard (talk) 21:36, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note that it has not been checked against B class criteria. Note that out of all 5 presently featured news articles, C class is the highest rating of any primary link with two of the five being start class. Note that the 15 CNs are in an article with 262 unique sources and 340 separate citations. It's undeniable that this is a well-sourced article and it's quantifiable that it's both better sourced and an equal or better class than the other present news articles. With regard to all of our established criteria, you simply have no argument here. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 05:31, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
CA's opinion is the one that usually holds sway around these parts, but your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. GCG (talk) 17:50, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not solved. ITN doesn't rely on some wikiprojects quality evaluation applied at some point in the past. ITN has it's own guidelines (which perhaps you've not bothered to read) which state "Updated content must be thoroughly referenced. As with all Wikipedia articles, citations must be to reliable sources.". The target article is objectively missing references, which makes it objectively inadequate for the main page, which makes it objectively necessary to pull until it's fixed. Cross posting this to WP:ERRORS and pinging @Jayron32: and @Stephen: in the hopes that one of them can take a look and pull as necessary. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 19:15, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, CA, your own citation says "as with all Wikipedia entries" which implies an idealized state for the whole of WP, not a higher standard for ITN. It also also also says that "Articles [with] 'orange'- or 'red'-level tags...may not be accepted for an emboldened link" which seems to imply that those without serious issues are not automatically disqualified. GCG (talk) 02:30, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Pull Huge gaps in referencing. I have also posted this at ERRORS. I just added multiple CN tags and there were already a lot. How did this get posted? -Ad Orientem (talk) 18:32, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In general, any claim of fact that is not obviously non-controversial should have a citation to a reliable source. In most cases links to other WP:articles do not meet that standard as Wikipedia is not a reliable source. That said, if there is a CN tag next to a claim of fact that is already cited before it (usually it should be in the same section) then a duplicate cite is not required. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:16, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't think this should ever have been posted in the first place. It is a combination of navel-gazing and political POV. The regulations were a regulatory fiat, not a law. They addressed noactual problem, and had no demonstrable effect while briefly in place. And not only has the sky not fallen since their repeal, the FCC has also reiterated that the FTC can prosecute anti-competitive practices, and mandated that any bottlenecking of service be made completely transparent to the customer, unlike the previous practice where slowdowns did not need to be advertised beyond a vague user agreement. There might be a real argument for the congress halving the US corporate tax rate (now the highest in the world) if that happens. But net neutrality repeal was a non-event. μηδείς (talk) 21:53, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Re-Posted Well done to BrendonTheWizard on making the needed improvements. With respect to the above oppose, I think there is a consensus to support this on its merits. However if that changes I will be happy to take another look. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:56, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm not seeing much coverage of it, and no strong argument as to why it matters either. In fact some sources even go ahead and say nothing much will change (e.g. this opinion piece on Bloomberg). Open to changing my mind, but I'd like to see some reasons for why this is highly notable. Banedon (talk) 22:18, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Oppose since (despite the breathless reporting) it hasn't actually happened. When you read the actual announcement, all that was announced today is an agreement in principle subject to shareholder approval from both companies, legal clearance in the US, and regulatory approval in every market in which the companies operate (e.g. most of the world). The deal is also predicated on Fox's bid for Sky being successful, which isn't at all certain (the British government have already vetoed that deal once). ‑ Iridescent13:21, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose but if this acquisition goes through, which it probably will under this administration (but who knows anymore?), it should be posted. This would be one of the largest acquisitions of its kind, and it has the potential to completely reshape the media market in the USA.--WaltCip (talk) 13:38, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support In terms of importance and size, this is a major buyout that affects much of Hollywood. In terms of timing, we have discussed business deals before, and its been determined that it is the point of announcement that is the point where ITN is appropriate, as that's when it is actually covered the most; the actual act may be a short blurb in newspapers when it happens but nowhere near the volume of coverage on the point of announcement. Yes, there are things like US regulatory actions that could stop it, and in those same discussions, if that stoppage is considered significant, that itself could be another ITN. --Masem (t) 14:22, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Significant news, quality articles. As noted by Masem, the time to link an article on the main page is the time when people are actually reading about it outside of Wikipedia. Since this is true now, it makes sense to post it now. --Jayron3214:23, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Typically with business transactions the announcement gets far more attention than the actual close of the deal; that point would get called stale and not in the news if we waited, resulting in no business news on ITN. We should do this now. 331dot (talk)
Support per Masem. There will be a much louder chorus of "now is not the time" if we try to post this when the deal closes. GCG (talk) 15:06, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Blurb needs work though; technically this is a merger. "Buys assets" underplays that less than a third of the existing company will be spun off. GCG (talk) 15:14, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried an alt blurb; we know Fox would keep its news side, but its hard to present a short blurb with calling out the exceptions. "most of Fox's entertainment divisions" is about the best summary that implies the news stays with Murdock. --Masem (t) 15:21, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That was why I wrote "buys assets from the 21st Century Fox" instead of "buys the 21st Century Fox". It left it implicit that Fox still exists after the deal, which is about some of their assets, not about the whole group as such. However, the alt also seems fine, and I have no problem with it. Cambalachero (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a significant event in entertainment and business. It has the potential to have major impact on entertainment consumers, and not just in the US, with assets in India and the UK, notably, included. As far as the blurb is concerned, it is true that Disney is acquiring 21st Century Fox, though the news business will be spun-off prior to deal closure. --heat_fan1 (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Big news if it takes place but too much presumption that this will actually happen. As another user said there are still many hoops to jump through and many areas where the deal can fall apart. 208.74.36.138 (talk) 16:34, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This user made only 2 edits in wikipedia (unless it's a regular user who forgot to login in; in that case please do so and sign as needed) Cambalachero (talk) 16:38, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If this falls apart or is blocked in the courts, that would likely merit posting. If it closes, it won't make the news. The time to post is now. As noted below, there is discussion about this somewhere. 331dot (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment we've established that the announcement is the time to post business deals. Could another "regular" dig up the discussion at Wt:itn? It's been weeks since I've been at a computer... --CosmicAdventure (talk) 16:41, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We can't !vote on something that doesn't exist. The individual articles were appropriately updated when this was posted. --Masem (t) 18:55, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That brings to mind an old issue never resolved. What if an article is fine when posted and then rapidly becomes non-fine? Standing policy appears to be "do nothing" in which case ITN becomes even sillier than it already is. Someone complains about [citation needed] tags, easy, remove everything that's tagged. Once the article is featured, restore everything. Banedon (talk) 20:13, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why it's an argument to pull. ITN requires a reasonable update in a target article, not a brand new target article that might not survive AfD. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment what is really problematic here is that the published blurb states "... announces that it will buy most of ..." whereas the reality of the situation is that it has announced an intention to buy, and nothing more. The dithering over whether it should link to one article or another is all very well, but until the blurb's false certainty is resolved, this is just rearranging deckchairs. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:37, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I do see it was changed, but one thing with business news is that when big company A says they will buy big company B , that implicitly stating there's the shareholders involved, the FTC involved, and a whole bunch of other hurdles. Though it is better for us to be precise (adding "intent") since not every reader will know that. --Masem (t) 22:49, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a lot simpler than that. They simply can't do what the original blurb said. It was factually incorrect. It's factually correct now. And absolves Wikipedia from the need to apologise without reserve when it doesn't happen. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:00, 17 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
At least 30 people are reported to have been killed in Saudi-led coalition air strikes on a rebel military police camp in Yemen's capital, Sanaa. (BBC)
Nominator's comments: Smithereens vocalist Pat DiNizio. Seems like yesterday.
It seems like yesterday because it was yesterday. Neutral as the filmography still needs to be cited, even though it's not the primary focus of his career.--WaltCip (talk) 14:18, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose - CN tags and if possible, maybe an expansion on his early life can be provided seeing there are multiple obits. Since filmography and discography doesn't have to be cited, it shouldn't be factor. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 14:13, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Still a stub. Could use expansion during early life and early career. The primary focus of this article appears to be his short tenure of office and his suicide.Support Article fixed and well expanded w/ well sourcing. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 14:14, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
South Korea beats North Korea 1–0 in Tokyo. The Japanese authorities gave the North Korean players a special visa to enable their participation in the event that was formerly known as the East Asian Cup. (Sporza)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose - as per above. A regional election that doesn't even nominally change the balance of power in the chamber to which the elected person will sit. --LukeSurltc05:33, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Stephen I would like to appeal your closure on the grounds that it is invalid to refer to this as a "local election". A Federal election for national office is hardly "local". In addition, in January 2010 the Massachusetts Special election and its ramifications were considered to be worthy of inclusion in ITN. I'd argue that further discussion should be allowed before closing this.SecretName101 (talk) 07:10, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Checking the 2010 case, that was when the Democrats lost the supermajority, which had significant consequences. In this case, the Republicans still keep the majority, as noted above. --Tone07:39, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support this is major international news (Independent, BBC News, New York Times, Times of India, Sydney Morning Herald). It's been the top story on BBC News for the past 24 hours, and I can't ever remember an election in Alabama getting that amount of coverage in the past. Far from being "local politics", the wider world is seeing it as a de facto referendum on Trump's style of leadership - given it was him and Steve Bannon who were the vocal minority to get behind gay-bashin' Roy Moore. (I have re-opened the discussion so people can elaborate on this, and would recommend people focus on what reliable sources are covering over their personal opinions of what they would like to see). Ritchie333(talk)(cont)11:33, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, your source selection is a form of cherry-picking because these stories are specifically on the "US" sections of the respective international news sites, which by definition focus specifically on US-based stories. You have to take a good look on the SMH or Times of India sites before you can locate coverage of this election, and even then, the primary focus is on Trump who seems to be compulsory clickbait material.--WaltCip (talk) 14:59, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't recall that being the front-page news headline for two days. As Moore appears to have refused to concede (presumably on the assumption that God will fix the recount), the story is far from over yet. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)13:01, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. A straightforward "surprise result in local by-election in which the candidate from the party who traditionally dominate the area lost because of personal controversy" story, and as such no different to something like Richmond Park by-election, 2016 which we wouldn't have dreamed of posting. ‑ Iridescent12:15, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Much as I think Zac Goldsmith is a spoiled brat and a nasty piece of work, I don't really think that's there's any equivalent in the UK - the best analogy I can think of is if UKIP put up Jayda Fransen as a candidate for some hypothetical Clacton by-election on a ticket of deporting all Muslims and re-introducing the death penalty and was leading the polls, only to be beaten by a Corbyn-supporting Labour candidate. It just wouldn't happen. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)12:59, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how "Extremist candidate doesn't get elected" is ITN-worthy, even from the US. All this demonstrates is that polls aren't relaible - something that has alreasy been shown in recent years, on both sides of the Atlantic. Optimist on the run (talk) 13:26, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this wasn't any old by-election and the US Senate isn't any old legislative body. False equivalences are silly. If itn had run the election it would have been "snow close Alabama is a red state, don't waste time considering". Thanks for reopening. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 12:38, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support The subject is in the news and the articles have been thoroughly updated, so the criteria for posting are met. I wouldn't support this if it weren't reported internationally, as Ritchie333, Only In Death, and Gerda Arendt attest. Davey2116 (talk) 12:41, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, no, no, no, no!!! - No election of this sort in any other country would make it to ITN. The only reason this is getting attention is because of the amplified media attention over the GOP candidate. The GOP hasn't even lost their majority in the Senate!--WaltCip (talk) 13:36, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest oppose As pointed out, there is no change in the majority leadership in the Senate, so this is not ITN material. Those claiming that its being massively covered should be reminded that ITN is not a news ticker and we are more careful as to what stories better represent a global encyclopedia. --Masem (t) 14:09, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
According to Wikipedia:In the news#Significance :"Opposing a specific story merely because one opposes all stories of that type (such as elections, or sports, or disasters) do not often generate agreement from the community.". I am supporting it because it has had significant coverage in multiple, independent, worldwide sources, and nothing else. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:24, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting because it has multiple global coverage is effecting asking us to be a news ticker. ITNCs do need wide news coverage to be posted; just that some degree of news reporting is observed. But we do not use the measure that "covered internationally" as a posting rationale. --Masem (t) 14:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But is that not how Wikipedia works full stop? WP:GNG - "significant coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources". You can't just make up criteria based on your personal opinion and expect everyone else to fall in line with that. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)14:36, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
ITN does not work off GNG rules, its a much narrower criteria for inclusion to avoid being a news ticker. (And even with the GNG, which looks for enduring coverage rather than a spike, that means that even a burst of international coverage doesn't assure an article. Though for this special election article, its notability is not at issue). --Masem (t) 14:41, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As much as I like the outcome, it's still not ITN material for the above reasons. Especially that this doesn't change anything relating to the Senate majority. †dismas†|(talk)14:20, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – Though momentarily of great interest in the U.S., it is as others have said essentially a parochial matter that doesn't meet ITN norms. Suggest close. Sca (talk) 14:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support What do editors here mean that ITN isn't a place for politics? In this particular case we are talking about 25 years since "ruby red" Alabama elected a Democrat, this would easily pass notability criteria. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:32, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just to be clear here, the story of this nom is that Alabama didn't elect a child molester. That's what you think ITN should post? This is systemic bias. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:07, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
[Closed] 2017 New York City attempted bombing[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose - No. This is simply too little of a statistical impact to be included at ITN. On top of that, its only meaningful notability is to New York City, not the United States, and especially not the entirety of the English speaking world. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 18:07, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
From above: "Please do not... oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." – Muboshgu (talk) 18:09, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Oppose I was glad nobody had nominated this yesterday. One lone idiot who hurt himself more than anyone else. We New Yorkers have mastered the Keep Calm and Carry On attitude of our forebearers. Better to ignore this idiot than give him coverage and potentially inspire other idiots than to give this any more coverage than it's already gotten. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I know I am going against character here (never been accused of being foolishly consistent), but this appears to be the sort of low-level local crime we generally don't post. There was no great conspiracy, no larger plot, no widespread damage. There's no there there on this one. The article itself probably (IMHO) wouldn't withstand an AFD (given the AFD was proposed in a few weeks once coverage died down) and given that, I don't see where this should be posted. --Jayron3218:20, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I was waiting for this to be nominated. The general consensus on ITN is that in order for a terrorist attack to be posted in a major city, there has to be a significant number of casualties. Here, nobody even died. There were four injuries, none of which were life-threatening and one of whom was the attacker. The New York subway system was disrupted - which already gets disrupted on a fairly regular basis anyway due to poorly maintained tracks - and that was it. The news is literally just covering it because it's New York City, Times Square, and ISIS-related. The rest of the world has already moved on.--WaltCip (talk) 18:25, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The source for the cause of death seems to be former Mayor Brown, with no confirmation by Lee's office. [19] This should be better confirmed before posting. 331dot (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The tone now seems OK. Living thousands of miles away and with limited internet access right now I'll recuse myself from assessing whether the selection of events from his mayoralty is representative. --LukeSurltc07:45, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support I don't think we need to bury him on the gentrification concerns. It's doubtful any mayor could have made much of a difference. It's mentioned once, which seems good enough. GCG (talk) 03:51, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
An attempted terrorist attack occurs when a homemade pipe bomb worn by a man explodes near New York City's Port Authority Bus Terminal. Three people, as well as the attacker, are injured. The suspect, identified as Akayed Ullah, is in custody. (The New York Times)(CNN)
During a visit to Syria, his first, President Vladimir Putin announces that a significant part of Russian forces will withdraw from Syria now that ISIL has been defeated in the country. (BBC)(RT)
U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly denies a Trump administration request to enforce the ban on transgender troops while this case is under appeal, thereby reaffirming her order that requires the U.S. military to accept transgender recruits effective January 1, 2018. (Reuters)
Turkey's state news agency announces that prosecutors in Istanbul have requested life sentences against six people, including journalist brothers Ahmet and Mehmet Altan and chronicler Nazli Ilicak. One of the accusations is reportedly "having committed a crime in the name of a terror organization without being a member of it." (Yenisafak)(RTBF)
U.S. President Donald Trump signs the "Space Policy Directive 1" that establishes the foundation for a crewed mission to the Moon, while also maintaining a longer-term NASA goal of landing a man on Mars. (Reuters)
Nominator's comments: Extremely large wildfire outside of the fire season. 1000 structures burned, 8000 94,000 people evacuated, citywide power outages in a ~100,000 pop. city, unprecedented disruption at a major state university, likely catastrophic damage to the nationally-significant state agricultural industry. James (talk/contribs) 16:49, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose See the previous Lilac Fire nom. Yes, there is destruction and people are disrupted but being the 5th largest fire in CA is not a reason to post. --Masem (t) 16:54, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Fifth-largest fire in California history is indeed not a reason to post. The impacts of the fire and the fact that they're "in the news" are two reasons to post. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:56, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say a bigger fire burning wilderness is less significant than a smaller fire in a heavily populated area. But you're right that there is news bias. I didn't know about the B.C. fire until reading your post. NPR had the Thomas Fire as their lead story during their Morning Edition this morning. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment since we're getting these somewhat similar "my fire's bigger than your fire" noms periodically now, shouldn't we consider an Ongoing slot for the California wildfires? I mean, this one has seen 8,000 people evacuated, not a big deal.... The Rambling Man (talk) 19:12, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also with TRM on this. The California Fires have been top news stories for several weeks now, and looks like they are going to continue being so for a while. Rather than the shotgun-scattershot method of trying to get each one up individually, the omnibus article could be a good target for the ongoing section. If we solved the WP:PROSELINE issues with it, and expanded each section to a short synopsis of major points, I think we could use it for ongoing. It's not there yet, but its doable. --Jayron3219:49, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
With the added bonus of my support, we're getting it rammed down our news throats over here, well until we had some snow and then it all became about how crap we are when the weather changes. Regardless, I'd support a Cali-wildfire ongoing nom, assuming the article was up to snuff. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ongoing on multiple fronts. Fifth largest fire is a bad sign, since it means there were four bigger ones. Fifth largest fire in California is an even worse sign, since that's only one of the US's many states. 1000 structures burned is not many. 8000 people evacuated is minute. $50 million of damages caused is also minute. For comparison we have stuff like 2017 South Asian floods affecting several orders of magnitude more people. Pull. Banedon (talk) 01:09, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose loosely per Banedon, but with an added element of WP:BIAS. The article is December 2017 Southern California wildfires. Sure. Kind of repeating a common refrain here, but if there were fires of this magnitude (displacing a similar number of people) in Tanzania, would there be several efforts to post it? They're not notable enough, in my opinion. A lad insanetalk02:59, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support. An unusual occurrence, especially when this is the second time he has quit due to scandal; we don't often post Indonesia, either. Article seems fine. 331dot (talk) 21:30, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support Generally we do not post political scandals that don't touch a head of state or government, but this is so bizarre I'm inclined to support with the understanding that this is an exception (sine exemplo) and should not be viewed as precedent for lowering our usual standards. I have no issues with the article quality. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:59, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support because of how much it has captivated the Indonesian population. The main problem is as Ad Orientem pointed out, it doesn't involve a head of state or government. Banedon (talk) 22:03, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, corruption is so common in third-rate (Redacted) countries that ITN should only post when it doesn't happen. Additionally, this goes against years of consensus here that such low-level political news is not postworthy. Abductive (reasoning)22:23, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you oppose this, fair enough, but I don't think the leader of a national legislative chamber being arrested and subsequently resigning is "low level political news". 331dot (talk) 23:20, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose per Abductive. The article for the legislative body outright says that the chamber has received multiple allegations of being rife with corruption.--WaltCip (talk) 13:24, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Pawnkingthree: Could you expound on how you find it "not significant enough" for posting? I'll also note that the discussion has not been stopped, and is gladly encouraged to continue if necessary. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 19:07, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak pull (never thought I'd type that) -- I'm not seeing this "in the news" anywhere. It's not the lead story on the EN Jakarta Post, and it's absent from the news aggregators all-together. Comments like "PT Orbit Terminal Merak, owned by his crony, oil trade kingpin Riza Chalid" deserve an NPOV tag, honestly. Weak because ID is a huge country by popn and we so rarely get stories out of there, and in this case the decades long record of corruption FINALLY catching up with him, makes this perhaps an exceptional case. (I agree with Ad Orientem above). --CosmicAdventure (talk) 19:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support This aligns to a Paul Ryan or Mitch McConnell in the US, methinks - that would get posted. Is there any evidence that this level of corruption is commonplace in Indonesia? GCG (talk) 03:59, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, yeah. That was my entire point- that we shouldn't dismiss events because they occur in the non-Anglophone world. GCG (talk) 17:39, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
I did consider adding a note to the effect that "Cheggers finally went pop" but considered that it might be very lost on our non-Brit readers who no doubt would have found it incredibly offensive and sought my excoriation. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it would have been lost on non-Brits, not so sure they would have found it incredibly offensive though. You should see the barnstar Iridescent left me (you probably have though, as I'm pretty sure you're one of my TPSs. Mjroots (talk) 06:43, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support having added sources (Jesus H Christ TRM, you're using The Sun for this - I think not); I think it's all there now. So, on the main page - one, two, three .... [whistle] Ritchie333(talk)(cont)20:23, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I "Jesus H Christ His Lord Saviour Our God" used The Sun because it was the only source available at the time, plus the BBC Twitter link which my company firewall rejects. That was about six hours ago. JESUS. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
01 811 8055, a number etched in our brains. I liked Gervais' Twitter send off, "Pop Knob In Fanny"... (should be safe enough for those who get it and sufficiently mystifying enough for those who don't). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
And the BBC also says there "Mr Putin made a similar withdrawal announcement last year, but Russian military operations continued." But the BBC seems to be having its own problems - its article is all about 'partial withdrawal' but its headline currently just says 'withdrawal'.Tlhslobus (talk) 10:20, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support A withdrawal's still a withdrawal even if some bases remain. Sort of like how the US finished with WW2 years ago even though it has bases in Japan to date. Banedon (talk) 22:08, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not a good analogy - what happened with US troops in Japan at the end of WW2 was (for very good reasons) the exact opposite of a withdrawal.Tlhslobus (talk) 09:32, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose current blurb: I'm currently neutral if the words 'partial withdrawal' are added to ALL blurbs under discussion. In other words, keeping the present blurb but adding an altblurb is not good enough for me, and I don't feel free to change the main blurb myself, which might also be problematic in that existing votes are for/against 'withdrawal', but not necessarily for/against 'partial withdrawal'. So it might be better to close this, and re-open it as a new nom about 'partial withdrawal' (though I'm at ITN too intermittently to know whether that's the recommended procedure or not).Tlhslobus (talk) 10:11, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
New evacuations are ordered as the fires spread toward a string of California coastal cities. Santa Ana winds and rugged mountain terrain continue to hamper firefighting efforts. Authorities report the Thomas Fire is only 15 percent contained. (Los Angeles Times)(Reuters)
The spying charge death sentence against Vrije Universiteit Brussel guest-lecturer Ahmadreza Djalali is now executable, since his Iranian lawyer did not appeal the verdict and sentence within the required three-week limit. (De Standaard)(VRT)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose notable or not, we cannot put stubs on the main page. Suggest waiting until something substantive is found in the tomb, causing an update to the article, prior to posting. Stormy clouds (talk) 16:28, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The state the articles are in now is not sufficient for the main page. Needs a serious expansion to be useful for readers. --Jayron3212:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support. Although the conflict continues, it is limited enough that the head of state has declared the war to be over, and this is the proper time to announce the end in the news. This is a major event, and the article is already well written enough to post, though it could use some polishing, with a number of uncited claims (most of which can be supplied from the separate articles on the timeline of the war). Inatan (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Clearly notable, but I don't think the article is well developed enough to post at the moment. In particular the section for 2017 is a list of largely unreferenced bullets in a timeline format with a mixture of tenses, which needs to be rewritten & condensed, with at least some added commentary. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:07, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, at least for now: (meaning Oppose on quality for now, still unsure about notability) Have I just walked into the Twilight Zone? The target article currently doesn't even mention our story (or at least the only mention of Abadi I found was in the list of commanders (Find Abadi here)). And it's admitted the conflict is continuing, but none of us 'amateurs' has been questioning the ITN notability of a story that the target article's editors (presumably the 'experts') seemingly haven't seen as notable enough to add to their article in over 12 hours.Tlhslobus (talk) 02:51, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose there has been no surrender or peace treaty, Al Baghdadi is still uncaptured and presumed alive, guerilla action continues. This is a unilateral declaration whose accuracy will not be known for some time. μηδείς (talk) 03:17, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect ISIL will neither officially surrender nor sign a peace treaty. It's too civilized for them, so they would fight until the last soldier or something like that. Brandmeistertalk08:59, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I've just watched BBC News. Its (2nd or 3rd) headline was "Iraq declares the war with IS is over, but is warned the group still poses a threat from across the Syrian border". Later it quotes the British Defense Secretary as saying "the fight is not over" as IS can continue it in all sorts of ways. That version is a lot more pessimistic than our current blurbs, and seems a lot less misleading to our readers, and thus also a lot less potentially damaging to our reputation.Tlhslobus (talk) 05:35, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a quick look on my mobile makes the issues obvious: 2017 has bullet points missing refs, 2017 proseline really ought to be actual prose (2015 section is decent example) and worst of all, there is no update explaining the "victory". Just one bullet point "reinstated full control of the country" whatever that means. As a reader, I'd demand better from a main page link. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 12:49, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I went beyond what I said I would do. The sections for 2015-2017 still need significant expansion, but apart from that, it should be ready to post. Inatan (talk) 16:25, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting Comment (and reply to above question by Inatan). Thanks for all your hard work, Inatan. In answer to your above question, I think the blurb should now be changed to something like "Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadideclares victory against ISIL, ...", with the "..." being something like either "whose supporters vow to continue a guerilla war" or "but is warned that the fight is not over". The guerilla bit is in the article but backed by a citation that seemingly says nothing of the kind. I didn't see the UK Defence Secretary's comment there, though I may have missed it somewhere else in the article. I think both those qualifiers need to be in the article, correctly cited, and some such qualifier also needs to appear in the lead. We may need that quite soon to avoid calls for pulling on quality grounds (but I'll probably soon have a go at fixing them myself, though I'm not sure how easy that will be). Assuming that gets fixed, I'll probably ask below here for such a blurb change (but not at wp:errors, except perhaps eventually as a brief informatory message about developments here, as it's not an error).Tlhslobus (talk) 00:32, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting Comment 2: (and continuing my above reply to Inatan)
1) I've now added cited warnings by the Australian Government, UK Defense Secretary Gavin Williamson, and Reuters, to both text and (in a shorter form) to lead.
2) I've replaced the incorrect source for ISIL supporters promising to fight on by guerilla war with a 'citation needed'. With a relatively brief google search, I have not managed to find such a source, at least not in the last 24 hours (anything earlier may be out of date now). Maybe more searching might find one. Or maybe we should just delete the statement due front-page quality concerns, but I'd prefer somebody else to tell me so, or to do it themselves (as little time has yet been given for a search, and I'll now be moving on to other topics for a while).
3) I think the blurb should ideally be changed to something like "Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadideclares victory against ISIL, despite warnings that ISIL may fight on by other means"
3b) But I'm a bit worried that by doing so we may be inviting some censorship by editors working for the powers that be, that might be quite a bit worse than the limited self-censorship of not changing our blurb. Yesterday morning UK Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson's statement was part of item 2 or 3 on BBC News (and was implied in their headline, see my comment yesterday), whereas now I get just 10 relatively obscure sources when I google Gavin Williamson “The fight though isn’t over". This suggests that he was 'off-message', and that a British Defence Advisory Notice may well be at work (perhaps along with its equivalent in other countries). As the saying goes, truth is the first casualty in war. Though it's always possible that I'm just not using the best google search parameters, especially as I must have used other parameters to find my Derbyshire Times citation (though the fact that the best I found was the relatively obscure Derbyshire Times rather than the BBC or a major paper like The Guardian is itself consistent with a Defence Advisory Notice being at work).
3c) Maybe the powers-that-be have a not-unreasonable worry that over-publicizing warnings (that ISIL may continue by guerilla warfare or terrorism) may turn such warnings into self-fulfilling prophecies by reviving the morale of ISIL fighters and supporters. Putting such warnings on our front page might or might not be seen (by the powers-that-be and/or by some of us, possibly eventually including me) as an example of such over-publicizing.
3d) Anyway I'd prefer feedback from others before asking for such a blurb change.
Thank you for all your work! I like one of your first versions of the blurb best, "Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadideclares victory against ISIL, whose supporters vow to continue a guerilla war." Although the source did not match the second clause in its article. Thank you for correcting it. The reason for that is that when I added the source, the bullet point said "Islamic State supporters continue guerilla warfare after the Islamic State is defeated in the country." How about this one, "Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadideclares victory against ISIL, whose supporters continue guerilla warfare."? Inatan (talk) 10:40, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Which source was that, and is it still in our article text? (After I put the CN on it, the 'vow to continue guerilla war' line got removed by another editor, so now the only explicit mention of guerilla war that I see is from Reuters, and that merely says ISIL's enemies expect a new phase of guerilla war, with no mention of it having happened yet).Tlhslobus (talk) 12:24, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(If it was the Iraq News story, which is the one I removed, that now doesn't mention guerilla war or any kind of insurrection anywhere, so maybe the bullet point got removed for reasons similar to why the UK Defence Secretary's warning is now only found in places like the Derbyshire Times).Tlhslobus (talk) 12:33, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And if we can't find sources for actual or vowed guerilla war, we'd either have to go with something like "..., despite warnings that ISIL may fight on by other means" or "..., despite warnings that ISIL may fight on by guerilla war" or just leave the blurb as it is (which may well be best, especially if the powers-that-be are using things like Defence Advisory Notices to get warnings and guerilla war mentions removed from websites, in which case our current sources may become incorrect due updating).Tlhslobus (talk) 12:39, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile I note that the article is now stating as a fact that the war ended on 9 December 2017 (instead of merely being proclaimed over by Abadi, with every possibility he'll soon be proved wrong, always assuming he isn't already wrong, as suggested by your 'disappeared' bullet point, in which case our lead is definitely FAKE NEWS, though it's arguably that anyway). But I don't currently feel willing (and perhaps not able either) to risk various edit wars to try to fix that. So I think I'm just going to give up and find something a bit easier to work on elsewhere.Tlhslobus (talk) 13:08, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, the blurb is good enough. The article traffic is becoming too much for me to handle, and the protection process takes too long to be useful. I will move on as well. Inatan (talk) 13:47, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it seems that others have now managed to fix the worst problem without our help, but I think I'll just leave it in their competent hands.Tlhslobus (talk) 10:24, 12 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I must varn you, CosmicAdventure, ve haf vays of making you not talk so disrespectfully about our beloved Fuhrer (, tho hopefully I won't end up regretting seeing The Donald and his pals as mainly just a rather sick joke). Tlhslobus (talk) 05:34, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Russian jets carry out airstrikes in a village in the northwestern Idlib Governorate, where a de-escalation zone exists, killing at least five civilians. (World Bulletin)
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Nominator's comments: Target is not currently a separate article. The existing article provides the necessary context, but needs further work. Notability is derived from the target of the attack, as this is the largest fatality count for peacekeepers since 1993. Stormy clouds (talk) 00:12, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. Conceding some exceptions, usually we want enough material for a decent "start" quality article before we seriously consider linking on the main page. Unfortunately we are nowhere near that here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Ad Orientem: Yeah. Article was in a torrid state when I found it, and my efforts at clean-up haven't and won't be able to redeem it. In your view, would it be more efficient to start an article dedicated to the attack from scratch, or keep targeting the current target? Stormy clouds (talk) 22:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Stormy clouds. First I agree with Tlhslobus' comments. Beyond which I'd just try to expand the coverage in the current article until/unless a very clear case for notability is established which I think is unlikely if you consider SUSTAINED, RECENTISM and the 10YT. Unfortunately I rather doubt this is going to get posted. But we will see. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:18, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now on quality (and not yet sure about notability either - 'if it bleeds it leads' is for selling newspapers, not for deciding ITN notability, otherwise we should be consistent and also follow the newspapers' other dubious habits and thus post sex and celebrity stuff too). Also Oppose sweeping the quality issue under the carpet by creating a new article (as suggested above), thus also hiding most of the background, as the stated purpose of ITN is to let readers see quality articles giving them the background they won't find in the mainstream media. The new article may also become the subject of an Afd, especially if created mainly to avoid fixing the quality of the parent article. The quality of the current article may yet get fixed (or at least improved) if enough other editors are interested. Tlhslobus (talk) 01:29, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Incidentally, whether it really is the largest fatality count for peacekeepers since 1993 seemingly depends on who gets counted as a peacekeeper. For instance, I could be wrong, but as far as I know there have been higher daily death tolls among both Western 'peace-keeping' forces and UN civilian 'peace workers' in Iraq and Afghanistan even after their position became 'legitimized' by post-invasion UN Resolutions. (And I've no idea how many other such 'peacekeepers' there may be). And I'd rather like to know who were those 'peacekeepers' in 1993 (for instance, were they US 'peacekeepers' in Somalia?) Tlhslobus (talk) 01:58, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the Guardian answers my above question: "The loss is the most serious suffered in a single day by the UN since 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed in an ambush in Somalia in 1993." This is presumably technically correct, but it probably helps if you ignore, for instance, 22 or more people killed in the Canal Hotel bombing that targeted the UN Mission in Iraq in 2003, as '22 or more' is also greater than the current number, but presumably they don't count as they weren't all UN workers (Note: The Guardian says 'UN', not 'peacekeepers', nor 'UN peacekeepers'). Tlhslobus (talk) 02:02, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Even if this was switched to the Thomas Fire, or to the general Dec 2017 wildfires, Oppose. Yes, unusual this time of year, but its part of the trend of dry weather in CA leading to these fires. They are only getting larger coverage as they are actually near LA (read: something approaching a first-world problem in terms of bias, though fully aware there is threat to life and property destruction. Just that wildfires happen all the time with the same threats) --Masem (t) 15:35, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not only is the Thomas Fire bigger but this fire itself is not anything special, in fact this is the first time I have heard of this fire. I don't believe we have put wildfires on the front page before so I don't no why we should put one on now. Khscarymovie4 (talk) 16:03, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We have posted wildfires before, I'm sure. Check the archive. Also, you may not have heard of it until now, but thats irrelevant. A State of Emergency has been declared. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That makes for an interesting factoid (perhaps it's the fastest-known conflagration of a wildfire?) but not news in of itself, especially since there are no deaths yet (at least, for the Lilac fire). --Masem (t) 17:26, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Muboshgu. When you are not the most significant fire in one state at any given time, you lack the newsworthiness and importance for ITN. Stormy clouds (talk) 23:37, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment really? There is currently an in season cyclone which is neither the strongest or deadliest in the box right now. I haven't looked at the article, but the 2017 wild fires are certainly in the news — Preceding unsigned comment added by CosmicAdventure (talk • contribs) 00:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
At the time of posting, Ockhi was the strongest cyclone of the season, classified as very severe and responsible for 39 fatalities. One cannot put that storm, and all the havoc it wreaked, on a pedestal with this wildfire. Stormy clouds (talk) 00:30, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I try to take my cues from actual news media vs my biased opinion of what's "important". Apparently that makes me a contrarian. I'm also a bit of an inclusionist which around here seems to be worse. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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United States Senator Al Franken announces that he will resign "in the coming weeks" amid sexual harassment allegations. (Time)
Arizona Congressman Trent Franks announces that he will resign on January 31, 2018. This announcement comes after two of his employees filed a complaint about his conduct, and the House Ethics Committee opened a sexual harassment investigation. (Fox News)
Voters in Nepal go to the polls for the second round of a historic legislative election. The turnout is 67%, up from 65% in the first round. (Foreign Affairs)(Economic Times)
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I don't see the relevance. They're a first world country, pretty forward-thinking, this is just a natural progression for them, just way behind plenty of other nations. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:13, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is now the trend in the western world; this has also been apparent that it would happen for some time, most of the argument was about process as I understand it. Now, when Sudan legalizes SSM(where homosexuality is currently a death penalty offense), that may merit posting. 331dot (talk) 11:37, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My point was simply that a western-type country like Australia doing this is no longer unusual and possibly even expected, while doing so would be very unusual in Africa/Asia. 331dot (talk) 12:00, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - they had a very "In the News" process because of that postal vote thing (international coverage) culminating in this result. Certainly more than Germany. starship.paint ~KO11:50, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is receiving widespread coverage. I think it's actually all the more notable for the fact that Australia has been so late on this compared to other Western countries.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:00, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as has been already noted, for the Western world, including Australia, this is not something new. The Guardian itself notes this is the 25th country to do so. Brandmeistertalk14:04, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Ritchie. I don't understand this desire for "new" or "unusual" topics. ITN's purpose is "To help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news." Nothing there says that it has to be groundbreakingly unusual. Opposes based on that should be discounted. Ed[talk][majestic titan]14:28, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support on principle, oppose on article quality - While NZ already had supported this , such that Australia following is not "new", Australia is much much larger population-wise so this is more a significant milestone. But that said, the article has several CNs, at least one orange tag, and other paragraphs that are unsourced. It's not close to posting. ----Masem (t) 14:39, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose While I understand the support for homo marriage, I dont think that every country's approval of it should be on wikinews. I can understand why we added the US's recognition of such marriages. I think I'd support adding if it was China, or Russia, or India. But Australia? It's a small country of 30 million people. A western liberal country so it's support is not surprising. Think about it like this: Would u support adding news about Burma? Or Peru? Or Colombia? Or Central African Republic recognizing such marriages? These are countries with comparable population. 193.34.160.162 (talk) 15:54, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose we've already come to the consensus that this trend is the norm in Western countries. The only reason I see for making Australia an exception is that we have a lot of Australian editors, this being the Anglophone wikipedia. But if we've stopped posting same sex marriage legalizations in Europe, sometimes in much larger countries, we shouldn't be making an exception here. μηδείς (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support I believe this is a big enough event to put on front page, as there were criminal charges against being gay in Australia not even 50 years ago. This change is pretty big for the country. Though I will say other countries with the exception of Russia, China, India, or any Middle Eastern county making gay marriage legal should not be put on front page. Khscarymovie4 (talk) 18:28, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
LoL posting the ~30th country in the world to recognize such unions is deemed worthwhile for ITN, but posting RD of an active player at the WW2 table is not good enough. 79.116.223.170 (talk) 21:08, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strange comparison, the UK has had three referenda ever while this is Australia's 44th (I think?), and a comparison to Brexit is even more bizarre, since that affects hundreds and hundreds of millions of people across dozens of countries and is unique. This is none of the above. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:01, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) This was not a referendum. According to the Referendums in Australia page you link to, referendums there are binding; the "postal survey" was the government simply asking people their opinion on the matter and was nonbinding. It was also voluntary where most other elections there are compulsory. 331dot (talk) 22:03, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough but regardless - 12.7 million Australians voted, which is more than half of the entire Australian population. Turnout of 80% also indicates strong interest throughout the country. It might not be binding, but neither was the Brexit referendum. I continue to support this. Banedon (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Again, another odd perspective, 72% of Brits voted in Brexit, and as usual, these referenda are not binding, that's how it works. But a democratically elected and sitting government is usually too sensible to ignore the will of the people, unless you live in Greece or Ireland of course. Most commentators are actually pretty negative about the "drawn out" nature of the vote, it's easy to have a non-binding vote and then make your mind up, and in any case, it looks like this won't enter law until 2019. Australia have just got with the program, a little late, but better late than never. It's great news, but it's not staggering news. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Boo Hiss even the posting admin is aware of the "god, even the French have done this" consensus. This is a step backward from actual notability to rightinggreatwrongs. The only thing that could possibly have been notable here would be if some branch of the Austrailian government had blocked the move. Otherwise, it's like saying, AU becomes the 15th Commonwealth Member to adopt metrification. μηδείς (talk) 04:09, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator comment. I understand the argument against listing, and I acknowledge that as an Australian editor I am somewhat biased. I do however submit that my instinct is still towards listing, on the basis of the level of conflict this has caused (in short, the more progressive parties blocked a plebiscite on the basis that it would be highly detrimental to the LGBTIA+ community, the government bypassed the Senate, ran a postal survey that survived two High Court challenges and triggered the largest LGBTIA+ rights campaign in Australia's history). This is a little different to simply another EU nation taking an obvious step, this is a nation with heavily entrenched issues with racism and homophobia taking an unprecedented progressive step. This is a nation where my LGBTIA+ friends are still afraid to hold hands on the train at night for fear of violence, where despite the on-the-surface consensus, the government was looking for every way possible to get out of this, and yet somehow we've gotten here. I can't speak for international coverage, but it's all the entire country is talking about at this point. The human rights of ~2.6 million LGBTIA+ people have been changed, and while that may not be as revolutionary as a duck dinosaur, or the latest thing that guy did, I believe it meets the bar. I would personally be entirely comfortable invoking IAR and wmf:Values#We welcome and cherish our differences. in support of listing, but I don't think that's needed in this case. TheDragonFire (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a little difficult to comprehend the 0-6 vote on Germany and a 10-5 vote here. It's not like Germany is the most *cough* progressive country in the world either. But consensus is what it is. GCG (talk) 13:39, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm actually in the Support crowd, so I'm cool with the torpedoing. I think Godwin was talking about far-fetched comparisons; that a particular gay man might have escaped execution at the hands of the Nazis only to later be given the right to marry in that same country struck me as remarkable. I was shocked that it was so roundly rejected. GCG (talk) 17:15, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Post-Posting Strong Oppose Really? This is getting tiresome. When are we going to desist in posting the endless succession of countries tripping over one another in their mad rush to legalize SSM? I concur with Medeis' boo hiss above. Enough. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:17, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I dont understand why this was posted. Admitedly, I've only been browsing this page for a week or so so I don't know all the conventions, but there does not appear to be any consensus on this topic, and the legitimate arguments about inclusions of this news to the mp has not been countered. This honestly seems like a biased decision and this looks like pandering to Australian/LGBTQAI++ wikipedia community. Karl.i.biased (talk) 14:31, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A simple head-count gave 11-5 in favor (before posting), which is sufficient for consensus. I read the discussion above and to me the arguments against have been countered well enough. As to your accusation of bias, please read the "please do not..." section above, which includes the line "accuse other editors of supporting, opposing or nominating due to a personal bias". Davey2116 (talk) 14:52, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, i didnt mean to offend anybody. However, I just counted every commenter and it appears to be 11-8, which isn't exactly a consensus in my opinion. Not to mention that, as far as I know, it's not really a vote, we base our final decision on the arguments each side provides, and I am sorry but I didn't see any counterarguments to the arguments people provided. I say we should pull it from the mp Karl.i.biased (talk) 15:39, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's okay, I trust that you say what you say in good faith. I intended to say that the !votes before posting (i.e., not counting the "post-posting opposes") was 11-5, so at the time of posting, posting this made sense. I'm pretty sure post-posting !votes are less representative, because people don't usually leave "post-posting support" !votes for obvious reasons. I think that the main argument for the oppose side has been that this isn't really anything new, or that it is expected that Australia would legalize same-sex marriage. First, this was already addressed by The ed17 above, which is why in my support vote, I referenced him. Also, the national survey vote was 61%-38%, hardly overwhelming on an issue like this. Given Parliament's reluctance to pass the legislation without the survey, I don't think this was foregone conclusion at all (which, again per The ed17, should not be a metric for newsworthiness). Davey2116 (talk) 16:10, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the article still has CNs and unsourced material (I seem to be the only one that looked at that?) If there was clear consensus to post, I wouldn't demand it be taken down due to these, but as the quality wasn't their either, this should be pulled. --Masem (t) 16:02, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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UNICEF reports that as many as 17 million babies worldwide face potential brain development issues due to their exposure to toxicity levels more than six times higher than considered safe in air. (BBC)
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu praises the announcement as a "historic landmark." (BBC)
President of the State of PalestineMahmoud Abbas says the move undermines the U.S. position as a peace mediator while the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas says that the decision would "open the gates of hell on U.S. interests in the region." (BBC)
The Arab League calls it "a dangerous measure that would have repercussions" and also questions the future role of the U.S. as a "trusted mediator" in peace talks. (BBC)
Investigators discover brain abnormalities in the victims. They are now carefully not using the term "sonic" to describe the attacks and there is growing skepticism it was caused by a sonic device, with the sound heard by victims being a by-product of the brain damage. The white matter of the brains showed changes which doctors believe could not be caused by sound. (Yahoo! News)
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Nominator's comments: Furthest black hole/quasar discovered. I put both black hole and quasar as the main articles but only included quasar in the blurb, as I was not totally sure which article would be the best suited for the blurb. (Edit: I found that there is an article for this quasar so I linked that) This discovery seems to be getting quite a bit of news coverage, with the BBC calling it an "unexpected discovery". Andise1 (talk) 04:57, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose What's unique about this object per se (such as its size, rotation, etc.) rather than its distance to us, which is merely relative, and an incremental change in our knowledge based on improvements in our observational technology? μηδείς (talk) 05:05, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@331dot:@Medeis:In answer to your above questions, please see my reply below to Banedon. Incidentally, since you both ask about the significance of its distance, 'too big when so soon' also means 'too big when so far away'.Tlhslobus (talk) 03:07, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment it's not fair to imply that "as our telescopes get better we will see further [quasars black holes whatever]. That's because there is a fundamental limit to how far we can see (observable universe). Also as we look further away we're also looking back in time, and at some point, we shouldn't expect there to be any more quasars simply because it was too soon after the big bang for quasars to form. Banedon (talk) 22:20, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am quite aware there is a time horizon that limits the distance of our observations, but this black hole is not claimed to be at that horizon. Oddly, our article on the previous record holder places it at a "co-moving" distance of 28 billion light years, while this new object is at 13.1 billion. I assume this is because one is taking the metric expansion of space into account, the other not. In any case, there is no claim that this is it, that the 37th state has ratified the amendment. μηδείς (talk) 20:15, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose seems relatively minor to me compared to other major astronomy stories this year (in particular, the first interstellar comet, and gravitational wave detection). I can be convinced otherwise, but based on what I've seen this is just a stepping stone. If another hundred such quasars are found and they lead to some discovery that upends our understanding of reionization, then we can post that. Banedon (talk) 22:27, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As you say you might be convinced otherwise, Banedon, I'd like to mention that the article has been amended since you wrote the above, and now says (with backing citation) that it challenges theories of black hole formation, with its black hole being too big too soon, which is how I justify my own support. I've also now said this in an altblurb.Tlhslobus (talk) 02:51, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I took a look at the paper itself and I'm still unconvinced. The paper writes "The existence of these supermassive black holes at z > 7 is at odds with early black hole formation models that do not involve either massive ([> 10^4 solar masses]) seeds or episodes of hyper-Eddington accretion." This is telling astrophysicists to concentrate on black hole formation models that involve either of these two criteria. It's not saying that we don't understand how black holes form. This is the kind of incremental advance that is the backbone of science, and not a breakthrough. Banedon (talk) 05:18, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your very informative comment, Banedon. I think at the very least the article (and also the altblurb) will need some re-wording to reflect what you say - in effect that it only challenges a particular group of theories. I'll try to fix that later if it hasn't already been done by then. I may first want some time to think about the right re-wording, which I may do soon while getting my supper, etc, and then I'll definitely need time to check up on the sources. I'm also worried about going too far in the 'no breakthrough' direction, given the original quote in the NASA article, and given that at first glance the two unchallenged classes sound rather exotic to me (and may well have been thoroughly fringe theories before this discovery). Still, even if no huge breakthrough, such incremental improvements in science are still significantly more than 'nothing but a record' (as claimed by many of the opposes). Whether they are enough to justify posting is a bit subjective, but given your two examples, I think (at least right now, before my planned source-checking) that it is less notable than the discovery of gravitational waves (even though that merely confirmed what we had all been expecting for 100 years), but in many ways arguably more notable than the first interstellar asteroid (which, at least initially, seemingly didn't tell us anything new, at least as far as I know).Tlhslobus (talk) 18:08, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I now think there was a breakthrough, but it happened a few years ago (and we don't understand early black hole formation, but not because of the current quasar).Tlhslobus (talk) 10:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose it’s the farthest black hole/quasar discovered, but that’s basically it, nothing else special and as one of the users noted above, this isn’t as significant as several astronomical events we’ve posted so far this year. Kirliator (talk) 02:01, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Changing to Comment: It's not just the farthest so far. It is also described as hard to explain in terms of existing theory (a black hole too big too soon, as I've now said in the article, with backing citation). But this description, though correct, is misleading as this was already known, as pointed out below by SamaranEmerald (with supporting citations later added by me). Tlhslobus (talk) 02:22, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support per Espresso Addict (see below). I'd really like to oppose per SamaranEmerald, but it wouldn't be right for me to punish our readers just because I'm embarrassed and annoyed at being misled by mainstream scientists and the mainstream press.Tlhslobus (talk) 09:31, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I’m certain that several of the other known black holes out there that have already been discovered also defy this formation theory as well, not unusual. SamaranEmerald (talk) 04:04, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support original blurb. Not qualified to judge the science but this has been published in Nature & widely reported in the press. Given the effort put into searching for such objects, the fact one hasn't been found in the past >5 years appears significant; I'm not sure why it needs to be a theoretical breakthrough to merit letting our readers know where our article is. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:42, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Espresso Addict. I'm perfectly happy with the original blurb. I only put in the altblurb because so much of the early opposition was saying being the furthest was not notable in itself.Tlhslobus (talk) 17:02, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
weak oppose I really don't see how this is a major astronomic milestone, the alt blurb, as implied by Banedon, seems to be questioned at this point, and as Kirliator states, the only real significance to the block hole that stands out is that its the farthest one discovered so far (which will very likely being overtaken in the near future). I mean I guess that may be ITN worthy to a degree, but I choose to oppose this because the discovery of a black hole isn't unusual and not necessary uncommon. 161.6.7.1 (talk) 05:57, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately we do not have a large contingent of Quasarian editors supporting this nomination. It may have something to do with their odd hours, seasons, furry quadrupedal ducks, Christmas in July, and their toilets flushing backwards. μηδείς (talk) 20:15, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support, quite an unusual and unexpected major scientific development -- unexpected for such a big black hole to be formed so soon after the Big Bang. Prefer the original blurb, but alt blurb is also acceptable. Nsk92 (talk) 14:36, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry,Nsk92, I hope I haven't unwittingly misled you, having been misled myself by scientists overhyping their work, aided by a compliant mainstream press.Tlhslobus (talk) 09:45, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually in one sense we know of billions of black holes, not just thousands (because there's thought to be a supermassive black hole at the centre of every galaxy) and they also all have or quickly acquire the same apparent structure (they are or quickly become perfect spheres), so your criticism, if taken seriously, would prevent us posting any discovery of any black hole, no matter how much it challenged our understanding of physics (this one challenges our understanding of black hole formation, through being too big so soon). though as it happens this one seemingly really is nothing new. Tlhslobus (talk) 17:15, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry,zzz, I hope I haven't unwittingly misled you, having been misled myself by scientists overhyping their work, aided by a compliant mainstream press.Tlhslobus (talk) 09:45, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Abductive. There are also at least another 2 such hyping discoverers, and no challenges from the mainstream press. But the claimed challenge to theory is actually not new.Tlhslobus (talk) 09:50, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. If this was the most distant object of any type then I might support it. However, it's just the most distant quasar, and doesn't seem to have any particularly unexpected properties. Growing SMBHs faster enough to power the early quasars is a problem which has been known about for years, and has several plausible solutions under active research. As such it's just an incremental distance record for a particular type of object, which isn't enough for ITN in my view. Modest Geniustalk15:11, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Time to close? I'm still officially a 'weak support', but I make it currently 9 opposes to 6 supports, and at least 2 of those supports seem based on seemingly now out-of-date information. So there seems no chance of a consensus for posting. So is it now time for somebody uninvolved to close it ? Tlhslobus (talk) 01:02, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Support pending improvements. This 18" animal is the first winged dinosaur described as having limbs modified as swimming fins and webbed feet. That material is in the popular press, and I assume it is reliable. I will be too busy for the next 10 hours to do the research, but will see what I can do before bedtime. μηδείς (talk) 15:49, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Notable subject, decent article. (Though if I have to choose between 2 science stories I'd go for the quasar, as that seems to require new scientific theories to explain it; but hopefully we can have both).Tlhslobus (talk) 03:29, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Weak support I know this could be seen as yet another Trump story, but I think with the altblurb, which recognizes that the US has been on the previous stance for decades (read: through both GOP and Dem presidents), this is a major policy change which does impact Middle East relations. --MASEM (t) 19:14, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Skeptical. Is this the first time for another nation to officially recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital? The altblurb is definitely unacceptable as POV grandstanding. μηδείς (talk) 19:20, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't trying to grandstand in that, only that why this news is important is that US for decades officially did not recognize Jerusalem as the capital, and this decision overturns all that. It's not so much that Trump did it, just that we have a chance in policy that will change Middle East relationships. Without some type of phrasing, the announcements seems empty (unless one is clearly aware of the background). --MASEM (t) 20:11, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't accusing you, Masem, of grandstanding personally, but characterizing the wording as such. US Congress passed a law in 1995 with wide bipartisan support calling for the movement of the US embassy to Jerusalem. Clinton supported and signed it, and Obama campaigned on doing it, and Trump is simply following up with his own campaign promise and in accord with that law. So I think Trump is irrelevant for the blurb, and decades long is inaccurate. I'd suggest The United States becomes the first foreign nation to move its Israeli embassy to Jerusalem if that is true. If it's not true (we're not the first) then the announcement itself is borderline in the way of an "I'll eventually quit my job as Emperor of Japan" was. μηδείς (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- this is not a vote, but I urge caution given Trump's large number of deliberately inflammatory statements. This would be news if something concrete happens, such as the embassy actually moving. I'm sure there are legal proceedings I have no awareness of that might count as well. 63.224.191.9 (talk) 19:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the capital of Israel as far as the US is concerned is now Jerusalem. The POTUS has the power to recognize foreign capitals, so it has changed foreign policy. Sir Joseph(talk)20:34, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You mean like POTUS having the power to ban immigrants from certain nations? Which didn't actually happen? I'll wait until I see the CIA Factbook updated before I believe this to be anything other than another Trumpism. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Would that be the case the SCOTUS ruled can go forward, and denied the stay, as the case moves forward?[29] The Constitution is extremely clear on this, and indeed, SCOTUS ruled a year or so ago in Zivotivsky vs Kerry (Clinton) that only the US President has the authority to recognize foreign capitals. This is a done deal, once the POTUS does it, it is done. Sir Joseph(talk)20:40, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The President doesn't get his powers from the CIA. Here is the Wiki article on the case I mentioned that made clear the authority of POTUS, Zivotofsky_v._Kerry. Again, once Trump as POTUS says he recognizes Jerusalem as the capital, that is the capital as far as the US is concerned. That Trump did it and not Obama is not a reason to say it's not. Sir Joseph(talk)20:45, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you, but I take my lead from reliable sources, not Trump, so once the CIA publish that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, I'm in. Until then, I'll just consign this to yet another dustbin action of his Trumpness. My oppose stands, but overnight (my overnight) we'll be overwhelmed with supports from the US, so fret not, this will go up in due course. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:47, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have some sort of misunderstanding as to how US recognition works. There is a RS that Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital, that is all that is needed. Under US law, the capital is Jerusalem once the POTUS says so. Just to add about the ban, the ban is 100% in force. The issue is as to what level. The Supreme Court already ruled that POTUS has the authority to do the ban. The case winding its way through the system is as to people who have some relationship to the US, not just any person. Sir Joseph(talk)20:50, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Before you go to sleep, since you are so concerned with facts and not having errors on the front page, what is the CIA's jurisdiction or Congressional approval to recognize foreign capitals? I understand you don't like Trump, but the fact is that under US law he, and he alone, recognizes foreign capitals. It's as simple as that. Sir Joseph(talk)21:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that's a reference to the CIA Factbook being a reflection of US policy. Any official act from Trump would enact a change there. If a change is not represented there, then this is just more inflammatory rhetoric from Trump rather than official policy. And now I've just agreed with TRM even though I am a U.S. Citizen myself and am urging caution about taking this this declaration too literally. 63.224.191.9 (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the CIA Factbook is irrelevant. As a US citizen you most likely know that the POTUS has certain inherent powers, like granting pardons, etc. One of those powers is foreign nation recognition. That the CIA Factbook is not updated in realtime is not the issue here. Sir Joseph(talk)21:20, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, to answer your question again, here's yet another RS, the NYT, "President Trump on Wednesday formally recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, reversing nearly seven decades of American foreign policy and setting in motion a plan to move the United States Embassy from Tel Aviv to the fiercely contested Holy City." Sir Joseph(talk)21:25, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware -- and I am also aware that Trump has an obnoxious history of saying one thing while doing another. He's made an announcement, yes, and under nearly anyone else that would be it. We may well see him declare that the moon is stored in the White House basement during the day before this is over. Trump can shout this declaration until he's orange in the face. His actual policy -- documented and enacted -- may be entirely different. I already feel dirty for agreeing with TRM, don't make it worse. 63.224.191.9 (talk) 21:30, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Will this official recognition produce a change in our trade policy? Our military policy? Any of our foreign interactions outside of the feedback we're seeing and is sure to continue? I'm waiting for a documented change in policy. Something concrete as opposed to promises and vague details. This will indeed by huge by anyone's standard if that comes to light. If, instead, someone leaks a memo stating "Ignore the President's declaration, it's only for show", then we'll know that this has no teeth. 63.224.191.9 (talk) 21:39, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What does it mean that we've now recognized Jerusalem? What measurable way will our approach to global affairs change? What dictates will be sent out modifying our place (rightful or not), in the mid-east? My point is that I hear words. I will take them seriously when a policy change can be viewed and critiqued. I mentioned earlier that there are legal ramifications to this that I have no awareness of. Should one of those be demonstrated, then I will be sufficiently impressed. Perhaps enough to finally create an account just to vote on this issue. 63.224.191.9 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:57, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Those are good questions but irrelevant to whether or not this story is newsworthy, and having the US recognize Jerusalem, in my opinion is newsworthy. Sir Joseph(talk)22:00, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's very much the same issue. And, in practise, Trump is continuing to stall
"Though he did not mention it, Mr. Trump signed the same national security waiver signed by his predecessors, from Barack Obama to George W. Bush to Bill Clinton, which will allow the administration to keep the embassy in Tel Aviv for an additional six months. White House officials said that was unavoidable because it would take several years to move the embassy staff to a new facility in Jerusalem."
So, it's like the wall between Mexico and the US. Trump has talked a lot about that too but it would be best to wait upon it actually being built. Andrew D. (talk) 20:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not the same. Trump recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital AND he signed a waiver for the embassy. The issue here is not the embassy move, it's the recognition of the capital. Sir Joseph(talk)21:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Try to edit without your bias showing. What part of the CNN or other RS do you disagree with? That you don't like Trump or the US on the front page is irrelevant to the facts on the ground. The US has officially recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Sir Joseph(talk)21:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No bias, just not caught up in the hype. The US has not recognised anything, Trump has, and when the embassy has been moved and the CIA acknowledge it in their factbook, I'll be all in. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:20, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The US has recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. That is the news. That you don't like Trump is irrelevant. "President Trump on Wednesday formally recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, reversing nearly seven decades of American foreign policy and setting in motion a plan to move the United States Embassy from Tel Aviv to the fiercely contested Holy City." Sir Joseph(talk)21:31, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Whether I "like Trump" or not is nothing to do with this, why do you think that's even relevant? I can read the news, but as I've said a number of times, Trump has said a number of things, and when they actually happen, they will be relevant. When the embassy moves and when the CIA agree with Trump, I'll buy it. Until then, just wait until about 3/4 am UTC and you'll have your consensus without needing to continually badger me. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:34, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Because you continue to not grasp that in this case, when Trump says it, it is US policy. That is the power of the President as far as policy is concerned. Sir Joseph(talk)21:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Because..."? I don't follow you now, that still has nothing to do with whether I "like Trump" or not. I'd go badger someone else if I were you, this is getting you nowhere (or worse). The Rambling Man (talk) 21:39, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free not to respond. We have a duty to report the facts. [30] The fact is that under US policy, the capital of Israel is now Jerusalem. RS have reported it, and as such there is no reason not to report such a huge event. That the CIA Factbook isn't updated is a real stupid reason. Sir Joseph(talk)21:43, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Then call me stupid, that's fine, but it won't change anything, just like Trump's outburst. We should wait until the actual fact of the matter takes place, this propaganda is a lot of heat, and not a lot of light, much like this badgering. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:45, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Try to edit without your bias showing." coming from you in a topic so very close to your heart is a bit rich. Also, you accusing others whom you disagree with of bias seems to be somewhat of a habbit seeing it was also mentioned in a question to you in the arb election. What will be next, trying to weed out editors without EC status to disregard their oppinions if they oppose as you have done here before? 91.49.65.208 (talk) 21:27, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The timing of this is all about the waiver – see yesterday's speculation, for example. It's a bureaucratic fudge and the reality is that Trump is continuing it while loudly proclaiming that he's doing something different. Let's wait until the US ambassador actually moves to Jerusalem and the Presidents actually stop signing the waiver. Andrew D. (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how more clearly I can say that the waiver for the embassy and the recognition of the capital are two separate things? He signed the waiver because it would be impossible to move an embassy overnight, among other reason. That doesn't take away from the news that he officially recognized Jerusalem. BTW, here's the NYT, [31]Sir Joseph(talk)21:18, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This shilly-shallying has being going on for over twenty years now and makes the Brexit negotiations look quite decisive. If the US really wanted to move its embassy, it could make it happen. The reality is obviously that the State Department is dragging its feet and US Presidents, including Trump, have yet to change this. Andrew D. (talk) 21:36, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That statement is full of references to the embassy move, e.g. "President Trump has instructed the State Department to develop a plan to relocate the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem." He's had a year to tell them to get planning. When is something actually going to happen? Let's wait and see. In the meantime, Trump is using this to boast that he's kept a campaign promise when he hasn't actually gotten anything done. Andrew D. (talk) 21:48, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Did you skip over the first paragraph? "Today, December 6, 2017, President Trump recognized Jerusalem, the ancient capital of the Jewish people, as the capital of the State of Israel. " That is the issue at hand. I still don't know why you are mentioning the embassy when this blurb is not about that. Sir Joseph(talk)21:53, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure you're reading what is being said to you. The world, in general, is bored of hearing about what Trump "says" and is more concerned now with what he actually "achieves". So in this case, that's said something, done nothing. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He has done lots. Recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital is a big news event for the US. He has changed foreign policy just by recognizing the capital. He also, which is irrelevent to this blurb, directed the DOS to make plans for an embassy move, but the issue for this blurb is the US recognition of Jerusalem a newsworthy event, not whether he did or didn't, since once he recognized it, it happened and is the current policy of the US. Sir Joseph(talk)22:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This isn't a mere inflammatory statement, this is an official policy change with international ramifications, possibly violent. Suggest the original blurb to remove any NPOV issue. 331dot (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest blurb The US officially recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Trump is not the news here, it's that the US has recognized Jerusalem. Sir Joseph(talk)20:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose the problem is that it is just one country recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital. What makes the US so unique? As one can see from the article we also have "The Republic of Vanuatu, in June 2017, recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel" and "The ROC considers Jerusalem as the capital of Israel". Posting this sets the precedent of making events such as "Venezuela recognizes South Ossetia as independent" to be even more ITN worthy than this (since recognizing a country automatically recognizes one of its cities as the capital). I would wait until some kind of international organization recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Banedon (talk) 21:54, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What differs is that an average Joe in Pakistan doesnt really care about Vanuatu. Just as the people in the foreign ministry of Pakistan do not really care about Vanuatu. This is what makes the US so unique. The world's responce to this announcement makes the us unique. Karl.i.biased (talk) 22:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, the world reaction to pretty much everything Trump has done thusfar has been the same, we've refrained from posting most of it because most of it was just rhetoric with no actual substance, whether people like it or not. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:17, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Overwhelmingly support Preferring the second blurb. People here focus on the nature of the announcement, whether it's going to change something in the fp of the us or not. I say we should judge whether this is newsworthy taking into account the upcoming reaction to this news which is going to be huge. Expect multiple muslim demonstrations around the world. If anyone here remembers the carricatures, imagine this but around 2 times larger. And this is not original research, this is what the media is reporting. Karl.i.biased (talk) 22:06, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:Positions_on_Jerusalem#United_States doesn't currently have anything that would make me support this--it just has a single line about DT making an announcement. If there were expansion about what effects this could have, or if there are violent/large/notable protests in response, that would help make this more postable. It's hard to support/oppose an update which doesn't yet really exist. SpencerT♦C23:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Alt2 – No friend of DT here, but it's the No. 1 story on many mainstream English-lang. sites, and on those of several other languages as well. Sca (talk) 01:04, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this is pretty tame in terms of this trainwreck administration, but do we really need the orange idiot's face up on the main page? It adds absolutely nothing. There must be some free image from Jerusalem or something meaningful. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 04:25, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fifthed. Merits of this nomination notwithstanding, Trump is essentially a secondary factor on this story, and not the main focus. WaltCip (talk) 05:55, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and pull. A statement with no real impact regarding the concerned city so far, and which represents a fringe POV on a question unrelated to the US, concerning a city on a different continent. --Tataral (talk) 12:30, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tataral: Um- there are apparently many hundreds of thousands of people and world leaders who disagree that this has "no real impact". [33]; this is a change in decades of US policy, hardly "unrelated to the US". This is not being pulled and I suggest to admins that this be closed. 331dot (talk) 12:35, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus, not you, determines whether this is being pulled. Jerusalem is not part of the US, and the US' opinion on Jerusalem doesn't count any more than the opinion of the close to 200 countries that disagree (not to mention the UN, international law etc.). --Tataral (talk) 14:41, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware of that, and the consensus is pretty clear. As I said, hundreds of thousands of people, world leaders, and Hamas would disagree with your assessment. If the US's view didn't matter, Hamas would not be calling for a violent uprising. The US is also on the UN Security Council with a veto and it will be used to support that position.331dot (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to not understand what a veto means. The position of the UN, international law etc on Jerusalem's status is extremely clear and has been for years, and there is not a snowball's chance in hell that it will change under the present circumstances. 99.5% of the world doesn't recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital and some contrarian declaration by Trump doesn't change that. As President Macron noted, Trump's declaration goes against international law and all the resolutions that the UN Security Council has already passed. To change that, Trump would need to propose a new resolution where a US veto won't help at all since there are other states in position to veto the US proposal, and since each and everyone of the other members would vote against the Trump proposal. --Tataral (talk) 19:47, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And yet the United States now recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital. That is news. The UN doesn't write law, the United States Constitution is the ultimate authority on what is legal in the US. I echo the comment above that this should be closed for discussion. That the US now recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital is major news. QED. Sir Joseph(talk)20:13, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The United States has been the primary defender of Israel diplomatically -- vetoing numerous un resolutions -- and supplier of weapons for decades. Dolt45's obvious attempt to inflame cultural tensions has worked: there are riots and the story continues to dominate headlines. The story will not be pulled. Will someone, anyone, please close this mess and move on. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 21:58, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Obviously not going to happen. Quite aside from the unanimous consensus against, this would be such a drastic departure from Wikipedia practice as to require a full-scale RFC and consequently this isn't an appropriate venue. ‑ Iridescent19:05, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Time Magazine has been naming a Person Of The Year since 1927. It has included many historical figures. It causes a lot of talk when announced also. I believe it is a big enough topic to be added in front page. Khscarymovie4
Oppose this specific article; were there an article on Silence Breakers, and it were of sufficient quality, I would probably support that one over this one. The list article itself is probably not detailed enough about the group that received the award to provide the sort of information readers would benefit from. And since no article exists, as yet, on the honored group, I don't think we have something to yet assess. --Jayron3213:33, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above. But I would note this should be impedius for us to create an article on that term to document/list the broad set of cases (if not part of Me Too (hashtag)) --MASEM (t) 14:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We can. Not to trivialize the situation around this accusations to this type of level, but we have articles on now-long-dead memes, as long as the coverage wasn't just limited to a day or so per WP:N. Taking with a grain of salt that Hollywood is the center of the gossip-sphere, the fact that 600k news articles in 2017 on "Hollywood sexual accusations" per Gnews shows this to be readily notable. The Time PotY naming will certainly establish a title for it. --MASEM (t) 19:09, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Cautious Support I understand that traditionally wikipedia doesn't publish time person of the year winners, but I do believe the overarching trend should be somehow mentioned. Just now the longest serving ouse of representitives member stepped down after he admitted sexually assaulting women, and now Al Franken will probably step down in a few days. I absolutely think we should at least discuss the win not in the context of Wikipedia traditions. Karl.i.biased (talk) 18:54, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: An odd one here. Hallyday is virtually unknown in the English-speaking world, but in France and the wider French-speaking world he was huge. Right now the "above the scroll" parts of the main page of France24 and Le Monde are almost entirely this story. He was described as the "French Elvis". Perhaps more pertinently for ITN, his iconic status and decades-long career is a close analogy to that of David Bowie, whose death by natural causes was posted as a blurb. I believe we aim to give ITN a global outlook, and try to "filter out" our anglophone biases. Article is however not ready for main page posting and will need significant work. LukeSurltc12:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, full stop - he is a national treasure in France and other French-speaking countries (everyone in France has heard of him and Emmanuel Macron led the tributes), but nowhere else. Oppose RD for now but will revisit if I can find sources. The fr-wiki article is far more developed. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)12:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. This sort of posting is precisely what the current RD guidelines was meant to encourage, to give RD a better worldview, but I don't think this person meets our criteria for a death blurb. 331dot (talk) 12:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: your own observation about him being "virtually unknown in the English-speaking world" explains why he is nowhere near as notable as Bowie. Tend to agree with Threesie above, although I'd say "Oppose blurb, arrêt complet", of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:17, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As any referencing issues are fixable, and there is no notability criterion for RD postings, it is not possible to "toss RD out of the window". If one bold-text opposes an RD on article quality issues, that opposition is countered when the article is improved, and not when/if the voter reevaluates their !vote. --LukeSurltc12:50, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose one could oppose an RD permanently if the article concerned was up for RfD? A person's death doesn't have to be "in the news", it just has to happen, regardless of how notable they are? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:31, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A death does have to be in the news somewhere(that's usually what the evidence of the death is anyway) as this is "in the news". 331dot (talk) 14:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD only, pending improvements The Rd/blurb arguments are given above. But the article quality is not there, several unsourced paragraphs. --MASEM (t) 14:59, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb "virtually unknown in the English-speaking world"... this is the English-language Wikipedia. The French-language Wikipedia can do as it likes. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:09, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This should not be an argument, at least on en.wiki. If a person is notable in another language wiki, with sources to back it up, then we can have an article on it even if there's zero knowledge of that person from English-based sources. That said, we should be very much aware of issues (both ways) with people extremely well known in one country but virtually unknown outside that; we shouldn't push to post those as blurbs even if that country is something like the US or UK (just because we're the english wikipedia). --MASEM (t) 15:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
While other Wikipedias expressly focus on topics local to their nation/language community, the English Wikipedia aims to be global in perspective, and considers the inevitable favoring of Anglosphere topics to be undesirable Wikipedia:Systemic bias. --LukeSurltc16:38, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Masem and LukeSurl: If he remains "virtually unknown" in the English speaking world even after his death, then that means there's no depth of coverage similar to Nelson Mandela, David Bowie, etc. that would merit a blurb on the English language Wikipedia. That means RD is appropriate. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that assessment, at least here. I cannot envision a case where we'd have a blurb for a person that is relatively unknown going by English sources - if they were the Mandela-level, even at least BBC would be covering them. But we can always RD those that are well sourced in non-English sources but that do not have any English coverage. ----Masem (t) 14:49, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That was basically my entire point. I of course support RD if the quality is fixed up (it wasn't last I checked, which was yesterday), but the lack of coverage makes this not a blurb case. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:47, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD. I've added more in-line references and trimmed some unreferenced content. Perhaps we could trim more if that's the main problem. The "personal life" section looks a bit long anyway.Zigzig20s (talk) 10:43, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and now also a source for the adoption of his second daughter Joy (Maï-Huong). Ah yes, should be easy - by all means show us how easy it is. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Due to persistent high winds, a fire begins and quickly spreads—at a rate of up to one acre per second—near Santa Paula, California, covering now at least 50,000 acres (200 km2), crawling into the edges of Ventura and cutting power to 260,000 homes. 7,700 houses are under mandatory evacuation. (LA Times)(CNN)
According to a Palestinian spokesman, Donald Trump calls Mahmoud Abbas, "outlining his intentions" to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem. The Palestinian President warns him against the dangers of such a step and says that he will continue reaching out to world leaders to prevent it from happening. (CNN)
As police arrive at the stateless Mikheil Saakashvili's house in Kiev to detain him, Saakashvili goes up on the roof to protest verbally. Police then detain him and try to take him away in a blue minivan while hundreds of people block the street. Finally the supporters free him out of the van. Bespeeching the cameras again, he rails against corruption, against Petro Poroshenko and urges Ukrainians to "be afraid of nothing". (The Guardian)(U.S. News & World Report)(Reuters)(Interfax Ukraine)
After several days of violent protests due to allegations of electoral fraud, Honduran police have announced that they will not enforce a government-mandated curfew. (The Guardian)
No hard and fast rule, but we want to make sure it covers all the main points. I guess this one does. The bibliography isn't sourced though. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Needs prose this is obviously notable enough in its effect to support, but there is really only one relevant sentence of prose, that on Dec 5 the Olympic committee banned the Russian committee but will allow individual athletes otherwise qualified to complete under the olympic flag. Everything else is either a pipelink to a main article about a Russian team or a rehash of Sochi. With that removed as padding, there are not even three paragraphs of prose to meet the standard new-article minumum. μηδείς (talk) 19:57, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a "new article" requirement, the Russia at the 2018 games article has been around a while (since August 2016), it's an "updated" article. And what else would you want to see? I'd be more than delighted to add more to that article if you believe it's somehow missing fundamental elements of the news story about which we're speaking. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, you do not in any way contest my assertion that the update so far was one sentence, just that the article wasn't created toda?. And your response is a snarky, so fix it if you realize it doesn't meet our standards? Well, no. All noms have a slot for updateder. Whose name did you put there? Only you can make you happy. μηδείς (talk) 21:59, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really follow your accusations but never mind, it's going to be posted soon regardless, and that's what's important, not who updates it or who makes incorrect claims over what's needed for it to be included. You failed to note what was missing, as I said, the offer stood and still does, if you could identify what was fundamentally missing from the article, I'd be happy to work on it, but as far as I can see, it's covered the bases needed for it to be reported. So that makes me very happy indeed. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:17, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support on principle I do note that the IOC allows "clean" Russian athletes to still compete but under the neutral S. Korean flag. But agree this is big. I wrote an altblurb and am surprised there's not really a separate article on the 2014 Russia doping issue, which this is probably better well documents and a target. Maybe the Doping in Russia article? --MASEM (t) 20:14, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - How often does this sort of thing happened, where an entire country is banned (clean athletes notwithstanding) from competition?--WaltCip (talk) 20:18, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle This is a major sport news with high impact that does not happen often and a story that already occupies the place of a breaking news in the media.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:34, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting comment: It's probably not worth pulling at this stage, but I might well have temporarily opposed on quality (meaning some arguably important info is missing) if it wasn't already posted, while calling for a few items to be added to the article, which I've suggested here. Per WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. I don't really want to get any more involved with this article myself (I only had a quick look at it after seeing a disagreement between editors above); I'm just briefly mentioning it here (and at the article's Talk Page, see above Wikilink) in case other editors might wish to do something about it. Tlhslobus (talk) 04:13, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
[Posted and Closed] RD: Michael I of Romania[edit]
the article is currently available to be viewed on the main page. No one is arguing to change that status right now, and there is no clear consensus to remove it. The current debate is a waste of time. Closing this before it goes any further. --Jayron3217:41, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Article:Michael I of Romania (talk·history·tag) Recent deaths nomination Blurb:Michael I of Romania, last surviving commander-in-chief of military forces from World War II, died at the age of 96. (Post) Alternative blurb: Michael I of Romania, the last surviving head of state from World War II, dies at the age of 96. (Not the last head of state from that era. See Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - Not meaning to offend, I unstruck this blurb version because Simeon's uncle Kiril was regent for him. Thus, while he was not the last king, he was the last regent, and he also happens to be the last surviving head of state from WWII. Everyone in Romania will instantly recognise him, but the original phrasing will probably increase the audience interested in visiting the article. Note: I followed suit and confused Romania's and Bulgaria's last monarchs. Apologies.) Alternative blurb II: Michael I, the last King of Romania, dies at the age of 96 News source(s):BBC, Washington Post Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Michael I is probably most notable for having Romania switch sides from the Axis to Allies. The other former head of state during WW2 still alive is Tibet's Dalai Lama, but Tibet remained neutral. Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha of Bulgaria was 7 during WW2 and had a regency. Feel free to adjust the blurb accordingly. Nergaal (talk) 12:41, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Karl.i.biased: Since RD was created, we usually only post blurbs for a death when the death itself is an event(as with the recent deliberate self-poisoning of a war criminal in a courtroom) or when the person was a world transforming figure at the absolute top of their field. 331dot (talk) 13:29, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think the first half of the explanation is correct; the second half of the explanation should be "or when responses to the death are or are expected to be extensive, widespread and sustained" That is, where the events surrounding the death (retrospectives in the media, spontaneous memorials, etc. etc.) are evident or imminent. That way, the criteria is still based on reliably-sourced evidence, and not mere assertians of importance. I don't see where this person is receiving the sort of instant, in-depth attention immediately following the death that someone like Mandela did, nor is the manner of the death itself a major news event, like with the dramatic suicide of the war criminal recently. --Jayron3214:33, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support for RD only, major news outlets are reporting the death, but there is not the depth of coverage that usually would be expected to justify a blurb. Article itself is quite good. --Jayron3213:22, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment That's probably because it's only been 1.5 hours since his death. Expect more in the following hours. Apart from being the commander in chief, he was the leader, and the last monarch, of Romania. That's significant as is. Karl.i.biased (talk) 13:25, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose purely on article quality. Although not in really bad shape there are too many claims of fact that are unsourced. Support alt blurb in principle. This is an historic event and probably should be blurbed if we can beef up the referencing a bit. Memorie veșnică! -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:33, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There are still some unreferenced parts of the article, otherwise, I would think that the fact that he used to be the king of Romania was a stronger claim to the notability than the somewhat arbitrary last surviving commander-in-chief of military forces. --Tone13:46, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD blurb. As the last king of Romania, he is a very notable person. Yet, the death in and of itself is not particularly notable (this would have been different had he died in office, or in some spectacular way). Inatan (talk) 14:17, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, RD only That he outlived other military commanders-in-chief from WWII is trivial. Not an especially newsworthy death, far short of others who haven't gotten a blurb. RD will suffice. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:52, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
RD only – Somewhat misleading to call him the "last surviving commander in chief of military forces" from WWII, as the Romanian forces were effectively under German overall command. In any case, Michael was pretty much under Antonescu's thumb, at least until 1944. Sca (talk) 15:03, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see he was a lot younger than the other commanders-in-chief, which is of course why he's the last surviving. He was born in 1921, FDR in 1882, Churchill in 1874, etc. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:10, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb following improvements I agree there's some lingering issues in the quality of the article before posting as RD or blurb. In either case, we are talking a former world leader of a major nation, and particularly crucial in WWII. He may not be getting the type of worldwide reverence as Thatcher or Mandala, but I think in principle, the passing of a former leader of a major nation should be recognized as a blurb, regardless of the circumstances. --MASEM (t) 14:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb The death of a person who played an important role during the World War II, reigned as the last monarch of a European country and enjoyed a popularity greater than the current politicians in his native country in recent times merits full blurb. None of these things alone could be sufficient, but having them combined makes it enough for me.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:31, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose blurb Though he was a very significant figure before and during WWII, I don't think being a national leader for 10 years is impressive enough on the global stage for a blurb. EternalNomad (talk) 15:51, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb this marks the passing of an age, as much as that of a man, and it is part of our systemic bias (half our editors are too young to remember the Clinton Administration, or any British Prime Minister before Tony Blair, being college-age or younger) that makes this seem unimportant. We should strive for universalism, not recentism. μηδείς (talk) 16:51, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry, but after justifying your opposition on a blurb due to the king's youth, and your opposition to "lives being taken" as a euphemism, I am simply struck dumb by the brilliance of these arguments. μηδείς (talk) 20:08, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My "justification" is that being the oldest living commander-in-chief is a trivial distinction, and that it's this particular one only because he was so much younger than the others. Continue to be dumbstruck. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:18, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support only alt2 (which I've just suggested), RD otherwise. "Last surviving commander-in-chief of military forces…" feels a bit forced, and I share others' scepticism of this as a notable category. However I think that being the last monarch of Romania to be a more pertinent fact, and this pushes it into blurb territory for me. --LukeSurltc17:32, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support either blurb Prominent person, deserves a blurb per μηδείς. I'm indifferent to whether the main blurb or alt-blurb2 is chosen. Davey2116 (talk) 17:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Support for this candidate is now overwhelming, and the majority support it as a blurb (with a large minority preferring RD). It now remains to be decided whether to use alt-1 or alt-2. I am currently neutral. Inatan (talk) 20:17, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, posting Alt 2 as a blurb - it seems we have enough support for that. The discussion directly above, Simeon Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was both the king and the PM of Bulgaria, not Romania ;) --Tone21:23, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear, thank you @Iridescent:, @Tone:! I cannot believe I managed to confuse the last king of Romania and of Bulgaria! I had counted 9 to 6. I just remembered, however, that the last "support" came from an IP with only one contribution (which could be in good faith, but these tend not to be counted). My sincere apologies. Inatan (talk) 21:29, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment there are now three death blurbs in the box. One very unusual circumstance, one barely notable but part of a wider conflict and one utterly insignificant death of someone who was a king 70 years ago and has already fallen out of the headlines. Supports really ought consider WP:ITN/DC --CosmicAdventure (talk) 01:01, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Pull blurb, Change to RD - There is clear consensus for RD, there is self-evident lack of consensus for a blurb, as pointed out in 5 of the last 7 posts (including this one). And the 2 support blurbs in these last 7 posts clearly don't change a non-consensus into a consensus. Tlhslobus (talk) 01:31, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(And, incidentally, as already pointed out by others above such as CosmicAdventure, the supports seem also to be unaware of the clear guidelines for blurbs spelled out at WP:ITNRD - none of the reasons given there for a blurb apply: the cause of death itself is not a major story, there are no events surrounding the death that merit additional explanation (and no such events are mentioned in the article), and he was not a rare case of a major transformative world leader in his field. Though even if they did apply (which they don't) that should not outweigh the clear lack of consensus) Tlhslobus (talk) 01:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Post-pulling Oppose Blurb, I was away from my computer when I saw the unfortunate posting and am now able to say that this should never have been posted. The rationales given by the nominator and others could not have been more wrong-headed. Abductive (reasoning)04:27, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Tugging on this yo-yo a bit more, its worth noting that almost all of the opposition above is to the poor "last WWII commander-in-chief" argument proposed by the nominator (main blurb in template, and, for most of the life of this nomination, the section header). However the actual posted blurb was alt2, which concerns Michael being the last King of Romania, which is a more robust rationale that didn't receive much specific opposition (admittedly, it came rather late). We're probably too far into the procedural quagmire now to rescue this though. --LukeSurltc12:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, the opposition was that this death does not meet the standards necessary for a blurb. Full stop, no extra qualifications. It doesn't really matter to most of the opposition what his job was, the circumstances of this death do not meet the standards necessary to write a blurb about it. --Jayron3213:35, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb per above reasons. I'm not sure why the blurb was pulled, because a few people shouted. The consensus for a blurb above is clear. — Amakuru (talk) 15:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Post-pulling-and-reposting support re-reposting blurb. It's a bad look for ITN to have a blurb up and then pull it back down again. Let's have some consistency. 128.227.244.222 (talk) 16:32, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Since you seem familiar with ITN you should be aware that improperly made postings should not remain just for the sake of consistency, otherwise our guidelines and this discussion has little meaning. 331dot (talk) 16:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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It is. I had put it there expecting it would hit Lakshadweep, but it went around. It may strike the mainland, but by that time it will probably (and hopefully) loose much of its force. I would still support it, looking at all the damage it has done, and seeing the recent improvements to the quality of the article. Now that there are two separate proposals for the same candidate, should we just strike mine?Inatan (talk) 14:26, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm reading from reports in the last few hours that there's still concern for some cities like Surat, so there could still be more deaths. --MASEM (t) 14:29, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support on principle The death count is already in the 30s. And it is still threatening other parts of India, after which regardless of if there are more deaths from that or not, this should be posted for the deaths that have already occurred from it. The article will have to be updated when the impact on the rest of the country is assessed, but what is there already is good to go. --MASEM (t) 14:29, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong, Muboshgu, it is not a euphemism, it is an idiom. I don't care about the wording of the blurb, and prefer succinctity. But there's no reason to bandy about flawed pedantry. μηδείς (talk) 16:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Point taken. Forgive my pre-coffee morning brain for the confusion. It's not pedantry though. WP:IDIOM redirects to the same page; euphemisms and idioms are to be avoided. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:02, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It is the biggest storm in the Arabian Sea since 2015, and it has affected hundreds of people. The article seems in good enough condition for me. Inatan (talk) 17:54, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Jordan's foreign minister Ayman Safadi has warned the U.S. of "dangerous consequences" if it recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. (BBC)
Hamas calls the U.S. government's plan to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel "a flagrant attack on the city by the American administration" and threatens to start a Third Intifada. (France 24)
France puts the concern on the E.U. Ecofin agenda that the current version of the United States fiscal act would unduly penalize E.U. companies by taxing their U.S. operations beyond locally produced value added. (Le Figaro)
Apple Inc. and Ireland agree on an interim deal to put €13 billion in an escrow fund for the repayment of back taxes, starting early 2018. Still, both parties refute that the alleged "sweetheart" corporate tax deals were illegal. In 2016, the European Commission found that an unfair advantage of €13 billion is to be reimbursed. (Silicon Republic)
Debbie Wesson Gibson, one of the women accusing Roy Moore of sexual misconduct, shares evidence of their relationship when she was 17 to the press. (Washington Post)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose Too many unreferenced statements and sections made up of long lists of films. Would have been good to see a nominator's comment too.--Bcp67 (talk) 19:21, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: It's being reported by Houthi media, but photos of his corpse circulating on Twitter appear to be legit (won't link to that, obviously). Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:00, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb The assassination of a former head of state is absolutely worth a blurb, especially when it exacerbates a crisis like the one we see in Yemen. EternalNomad (talk) 14:38, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb though as a note reading both accounts, I'm not sure if "assassination" is the right term. I know they say he died by a sniper bullet, but it sounds like there was tons of combat happening all around and being hit was not as much directed as one would normally figure with an assassination. --MASEM (t) 14:43, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support alternative blurb overwhelmingly. This is a dramatic and a significant development in the Yemen Civil War. Plus, death (an assassination at that) of a former leader of a large country is notable in any case. I don't think we should wait for a write up, if anything, adding these news to the main page of english wiki will stimulate writers to make a good write up on the story. As for the blurbs, I supported the alternative one since it's much more informative when it comes to the circumstances of his death. Karl.i.biased (talk) 15:22, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I would argue though that we should add the info from the alternative blurb since it is much more informative. Maybe we can keep this discussion open (I am new and not sure how this page works) so that we can see what other users think about it? Karl.i.biased (talk) 19:40, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just wish the blurb would refrain from pointing fingers or hinting at Houthis. Even BBC, Reuteurs just put killed without saying who. The situation in Yemen is quite chaotic and there are lots of people who may want to take revenge at Saleh, including UAE/KSA ground allies, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, South Separatists, etc. not just Houthis. The area he died in was supposedly under UAE control according to reports. --Tachfin (talk) 19:52, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly support blurb - The former long-term ruler of Yemen getting unceremoniously shot dead amid hostilities in the capital city is a pretty significant development. I'm shocked, frankly. I know I shouldn't be, but I am. I also think that Saleh's image should be used on the main page. This is a big deal. Kurtis(talk)20:00, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I am new to wikipedia, can we just remove both parts of these two statements that failed verification? As far as I can see they are relatively minor parts. One deals with whether he blamed citizens for the massacre, the other - whether citizens were armed or not. The third one (the first one you marked as not in the source) is a pretty generic statement about the beginnings of Arab Spring in Yemen, it doesn't appear biased and I think it's pretty easy to find other sources for that statement. I would have searched for them, but I have to go to sleep right now. Karl.i.biased (talk) 20:31, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Finding sources is better than removing altogether. In any case, there are several parts that need improvement. --Tone20:36, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it looks better. There is a paragraph at the start of the "Protests" section where the content doesn't match the ref -- if that gets fixed up I think it's good to go. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 00:42, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Re-pull (Changing to Comment per discussion below) - Quality issue pointed out above at 00.42 by CosmicAdventure is still not fixed and is still (rightly or wrongly, or a bit of both) flagged there as 'not in citation given'.Tlhslobus (talk) 01:51, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
OK then, CosmicAdventure. But should the somewhat debatable 'not in citation given' flag stay or go? (For instance, the citation mentions the Tunisian President and corruption, but not democratic reform and human rights abuses). Tlhslobus (talk) 02:15, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A 10-tonne fishing boat collides with a 336-tonne fuel tanker near Yeongheung Island, South Korea, killing 13 of the 22 people on board the fishing boat. Two people remain missing. (Radio New Zealand)
The lawyer of Ahmed Shafiq, a candidate for the spring 2018 presidential elections in Egypt, says she met him in a hotel room in Cairo following his arrest the day before in Dubai, U.A.E., after saying earlier today that his family didn't know his whereabouts. (Ahram Online)(BBC)
Several thousand opposition supporters demonstrate in central Kiev, calling for the parliament to adopt legislation on presidential impeachment. (RFE/RL)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The former president of Yemen Ali Abdullah Saleh suggests that he is open to talking to the Saudi-led coalition that his forces have been fighting for years. (BBC)
Voyager 1 successfully fires backup maneuvering thrusters, that had previously remained inactive for 37 years. Those thruster firings are to keep the spacecraft's antenna pointed at Earth, which is vital to maintain communications. (Ars Technica)
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
That blurb is very long, can we condense it? (Do we really need to state both losing sides and repeat the name of the sport?) I've tried to come up with a shorter version but keep running into the ENGVAR plural issue. I've added alt1, but it suffers from the win/wins problem - suggestions welcome. The women's article is much further from being ready, so the issue might go away if the men's goes up on its own. Modest Geniustalk12:04, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment. He announced his intention to abdicate in 20182019. Anything could happen before then, he may wish to abdicate sooner, he could (hopefully not) pass away before then. When the abdication occurs and his son takes the throne it will be ITNR(a change in head of state) so I'm wondering if we should wait until then. That said, a Japanese emperor has not abdicated in a very long time, so maybe the announcement is worth posting now. I'm undecided at the moment, but the blurb should be accurate. 331dot (talk) 16:33, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. He's announced his intention to abdicate in 2019 (not 2018), and two years is a long time; he may change his mind, he may fall under a bus tomorrow, he may abdicate sooner. "First in 200 years" isn't as impressive as it sounds, given that Mutsuhito's and Hirohito's very long reigns mean there have only been six emperors in that period (and Yoshihito de facto abdicated in 1919, he just never formally resigned and instead just handed over all duties to Hirohito). Given that it will automatically be posted if and when it happens, I see no reason to post it now. ‑ Iridescent16:44, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think, upon reflection, that I oppose as well. This would be no different than Donald Trump announcing he will not seek reelection in 2020. He has plenty of time to change his mind. 331dot (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, it's a good faith nomination undoubtably, and if it was immediate, I would support this; however the emperor is not set to abdicate the throne for over a year now. Nevertheless I agree with what you guys mentioned above: we'll never know what will happen during the time between now and when he plans to abdicate. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 22:25, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. Definitely something we will want to post when it actually happens. In the meantime best wishes to H.I.M. on his impending retirement. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:09, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Four attackers storm the Directorate of Agricultural Training Institute in Pakistan and exchange fire with police and army personnel. The four attackers are killed in the attack, and at least 12 people are killed and 35+ are injured. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claims responsibility. (Arab News)
The government of Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernández, who is seeking re-election, imposes a ten-day curfew after allegations of electoral fraud and calls for an election recount resulted in violent protests across the country. (AP via ABC News)
There's clearly not going to be consensus for either a blurb or ongoing at this stage. If there are significant developments it can be renominated. ‑ Iridescent07:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Reported by multiple news outlets. Going to be mainstream for a while as part of the whole Russia investigation/scandal. — Kay MarieTalk19:53, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: In the altblurb I've put in a target article, the ongoing investigation. Per Black Kite's second sentence above, I don't think this actually merits a blurb (So Oppose blurb). But it might merit inclusion in Ongoing, about which I'm currently neutral.Tlhslobus (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've also re-ordered the altblurb wording, to avoid implying he lied to the FBI in the investigation, since I don't know whether it was then or earlier that he lied.Tlhslobus (talk) 20:39, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but it's also the kind of 'local' and 'parochial' politics that is probably one of the lead items in the news of most of our readers, unlike most of the stories we post at ITN (but I agree it shouldn't be a blurb, so am I allowed change it to Ongoing, about which I'm still currently neutral, or is that up to the nominator?) Tlhslobus (talk) 20:49, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It might interest American readers for a day or two, but it's not something I'd expect to see as something notable enough to be a news story of the year. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The problem isn't that the story is "parochial" or "local politics" @Black Kite and The Rambling Man: (from Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates#Please_do_not..., "... oppose an item because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive.") The problem with posting this is the guilty plea is for one relatively minor count (yeah, lying to the FBI is minor compared to the other things he could've been charged with) and is only the next (granted big) step in the investigation, a step towards nailing the big orange target. That's what we're looking for. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:55, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh it's newsworthy. A U.S. NSA admitting to lying to the FBI. A Trump official turning on Trump. It's just not ITN-worthy because we're not a news site and we're waiting for the big enchilada. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:22, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Muboshgu: Agreed re the specific Flynn story, but the nominator seems inexperienced (for instance, she doesn't have a lead story) but her comment ("Going to be mainstream for a while as part of the whole Russia investigation/scandal.") suggests she might want it to be reported as part of something Ongoing, so what's your view on that? Tlhslobus (talk) 21:08, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tlhslobus: Totally understand that, it's a completely good faith nomination. But, there's a pretty established consensus here that we're not going to post every major development in this Russia/Trump collusion case, and ongoing isn't really appropriate either since the timing of the updates is sporadic and unpredictable. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:13, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Muboshgu. Also I don't think Ongoing is appropriate, that's meant for articles with daily updates over a sustained period and this will die down again now that Flynn's had his court appearance.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 21:00, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Pawnkingthree: Thanks for dealing with the Ongoing aspect. But I'm still neutral on that, as I note the target article in the altblurb (Mueller's ongoing investigation) has been updated on 14 of the last 31 days (and probably a lot more further back, and probably a lot more to come).Tlhslobus (talk) 21:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Muboshgu. I'll add that a guilty plea isn't yet a sentence, and there's likely more to come; this is a minor step in a developing story so it's too soon to post this. Banedon (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I expect the sentence is suspended pending his cooperation in the investigation, similar to George Papadopoulos. Flynn and his son will probably stay out of prison entirely as a result of this plea and the coming cooperation. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:13, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In a way that's partly why I asked how long we should wait, but unfortunately it's not strictly true that it hurts nothing to keep hopeless things open - it uses up editors' time that might be more productively used elsewhere, on or off Wikipedia. Tlhslobus (talk) 22:20, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully disagree. Read the nom, oppose or not, move on. No need to revisit, no time wasted unless you want to waste it. It'll go stale on it's own and expire off like all the others. Or the supports will rally and it'll go up. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 22:37, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply, CosmicAdventure, but I also respectfully disagree. In practice in the real world it's not always easy to walk away from replying to something added here (our two conversations here are arguably a case in point, but even if they aren't it doesn't really mean that leaving hopeless things open never wastes people's time). But to avoid wasting any more of each other's time I suggest we both respectfully agree to differ. Tlhslobus (talk) 22:51, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sticking with my above oppose, but is there anybody 'higher up' that doesn't have Orange hair, and, if so, what rank might they hold? Tlhslobus (talk) 22:03, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, 331dot. I guess I'll just have to wait-and-see how we all react if his son gets nailed (I'm assuming, perhaps wrongly, that he's not (or no longer) officially working for him). Tlhslobus (talk) 23:52, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Would we care if it gets Pence? I've seen some suppositions that Pence may be caught up in some of the stuff Flynn was involved in, possibly to the point of obstruction. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:20, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but my guess is probably not. I expect we'd have a big row but there'd be no consensus, so no posting. Quite likely same goes for Kushner, Donald Jr, and even Trump himself if he's impeached but has not yet been convicted nor resigned. Tlhslobus (talk) 00:53, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So probably would I, but that wouldn't guarantee consensus. I might add that even Trump's conviction or resignation and replacement is technically not ITNR, since he's a head of state of a country where the head of state is normally elected, and there would have been no election. I expect there would still be a consensus for posting Trump's departure (subject to quality), but saying so will probably get me indefinitely banned for being in breach of WP:MYSTIC MEG :) Tlhslobus (talk) 01:10, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support first cabinet official of the Orange Idiots admin to be convicted, major international story, important update to a story that's been running along for over a year. No requirement at WP:ITN for "international significance" and a "Please do not" above regarding complaining about the same means such objections would be rightly ignored when judging consensus. Article is pretty decent. "Weak" because the charges are fairly minor and the investigation is ongoing -- but make no mistake this is "in the news" right now, today, RIGHT NOW, so WP:ITN#Purpose is certainly satisfied. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 21:54, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Fair points, but before I even considered changing my current Oppose, I would need to see a convincing refutation of the arguments above by Muboshgu that persuaded me to oppose. Tlhslobus (talk) 22:12, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, for the sake of technical accuracy, the National Security Adviser is not in the Cabinet (though admittedly usually more powerful than most of those who are). Tlhslobus (talk) 23:28, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose Pleading guilty != conviction. And yes, we all are aware of what the likely end game will be here, this is far too early a step in the process to treat as ITN. --MASEM (t) 23:18, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a minor conviction in a political scandal that we don't know where it's going. Every country has political scandals and we almost never post on them until/unless they directly touch on the head of state or government. This may, or may not be a step in that direction. But by itself it is trivial and reading anything more into it requires a really big and well calibrated crystal ball. I am not prepared to go there. Not yet anyway. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:54, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose - article is not up to snuff in many divergent regards. The proposed blurb is an irredeemable mess. Even if the prerequisite fixes are made, I would still be on the fence vis-á-vis notability or newsworthiness, given that it is a terror attack in a region where attacks with more fatalities are frequent. It may be an embodiment of ethnocentrism, but I am seeing a lot more Meghan Markle in my newsfeed than this story. Stormy clouds (talk) 16:31, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose with regret the article, as Black Kite notes, is terrible, but the item is certainly newsworthy. Needs a shedload of work before it can seriously be considered for main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on notability even if quality were fixed. My opposition has nothing to do with the above-mentioned Meghan Markle. We rightly have an article about the attack in the encyclopaedia, but I just think on principle there should be something pretty exceptional about a terrorist attack before ITN reluctantly gives the terrorists more of the oxygen of front-page publicity that may help keep them going.Tlhslobus (talk) 21:43, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think your oppose is an opposition to giving terrorism a voice, then your vote should be discounted. What's "exceptional" about a terror attack? Blowing up the WTC? Blowing up trains in Madrid? Blowing up a marathon in the US? Each of these had substantially different consequences, yet all were exceptional. We disregard multiple deaths in a gun attack in Peshawar because it's not Las Vegas or San Bernardino or Fort Hood? More Children Are Shot Every Day in America Than the Number of Kids Killed in Texas. We should absolutely stop posting mass killing in the US and focus on those in places like Pakistan, Syria, Iraq etc, as they are now more meaningful. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:03, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Or bombings and vehicular attacks in London? We should post things which are "in the news" per WP:ITN#Purpose. If you believe the purpose of ITN should be changed to champion "meaningful" stories, I'd suggest an RFC. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
1) Actually the real problem seems to be interpreting 'in whose news' in the light of WP:WORLDWIDE (aka WP:BIAS).
2) Ironically, if TRM thinks that too much violence in America gets reported at ITN, then one way to try to stop this is to be able to say "we didn't report 13 deaths in Pakistan because we deemed them non-notable (see diff here), so, per WP:WORLDWIDE, why would we claim that 10 US deaths are more notable than 13 Pakistani deaths?"
3) I guess whether that is a good idea or not depends on whether or not we think WP:WORLDWIDE should be scrapped as hopelessly unrealistic, at least for ITN, about which I'm open-minded, but here is not the place to discuss that, beyond saying that somebody might want to try to modify ITN's rules to clarify ITN's relation to WP:WORLDWIDE, but consensus on that clarification may be unachievable.
4) Also ironically, I tend to think that TRM is right about ITN reporting too much violence in America, but mostly for different reasons, as stated elsewhere. I think we are consciously or unconsciously far too tied up to the media's money-making mantra "if it bleeds it leads" when trying to assess a story's notability. (But for some unclear reason we only seem to post the violence part of the media's "sex and violence and celebrity" recipe for financial survival).
5) Meanwhile, given your above-stated views, shouldn't you be casting an Oppose vote on notability grounds, especially given that it has now gained its first support vote on quality grounds?
In answer to TRM (and my apologies for the Wall of Text, but I've been confronted with a lot of points that seem to call for an answer):
1) What makes an attack exceptional may vary, but usually a high death toll will be involved, though other factors may also be involved. As with everything else regarding notability, it is really a matter for us to decide at the time on a case by case basis. I may be forgetting some instances, but I am not aware that I have ever supported posting any recent terrorist attack (or mass shooting either), with the possible exception of the Friday 13th November 2015 Paris attacks (and conceivably some others that I have forgotten), and I have occasionally opposed them on similar grounds to those given above by me.
2) In theory I may also sometimes support such stories (I would probably have supported posting 9/11 and perhaps also the Madrid bombings if I had been around at the time). I'm not sure, but I may well have supported posting the Paris killings, because they were especially shocking to me for personal reasons which I won't go into (and which may or may not have distorted my judgment as regards their notability). And I might well have supported the Egyptian horror we currently have posted if I had been aware of it when it was being debated (or then again I may simply have failed to notice it because I usually ignore such things wherever they happen, both to spite the evil publicity seekers who cause them, and because something like 200,000 people die every day, so I'm never quite sure why I should be less concerned about their deaths than about the deaths of the much smaller number that the terrorists seek to gain publicity from, and that the media seek to make money from).
3) I do not deny that like any sane person I dislike giving terrorists unnecessary publicity (on the contrary, I said as much above).
3b) And I would also not deny that I think that if Wikipedia gets a reputation for giving more helpful publicity to terrorism than absolutely necessary that will also be damaging for Wikipedia (which is not what ITN is supposed to be for, and any rule causing such damage should simply be ignored per WP:IAR).
3c) And inevitably such views are liable to consciously or unconsciously influence my views on whether a story is sufficiently notable for ITN or not.
3d) But that does not mean that my views (and vote) on what is and is not notable enough for ITN should be discounted. What people see as sufficiently notable for ITN, and why they do so, will vary from individual to individual, and their reasons will usually be a mixture of both conscious and unconscious reasons that are ultimately too complex to be fathomed by themselves, let alone by anybody else. And therefore mine are as valid as any other editor's (unless we are going to start discounting your vote everytime somebody states or hints that your views on notability might really be motivated by some sort of bias or other, and discounting every other editor's votes on similar grounds)
4) As for this being in Peshawar rather than America, I regularly support postings on grounds of WP:BIAS aka WP:WORLDWIDE (most recently our current sumo wrestling story, and before that our Rohingya story, and before that our Mnangagwa story, all of which I supported posting (while you seemingly said nothing either way, presumably for very valid reasons)). I also remember being criticised by you for objecting to having the European refugee crisis on Ongoing because in my opinion it violated WP:BIAS (which I argued was a serious quality issue, treating quality in its broadest sense) by being too Eurocentric, since, if I remember right, all the relevant interlinked articles on the global refugee crisis seemed to spend about 95% of their text dealing with about one to two million refugees headed for Europe, and about 5% on the remaining 58 or 59 of the 60 million total. (Note: I am European myself, and have never lived anywhere except Europe, but this does not mean that I think Wikipedia should be what I see as absurdly Eurocentric, as in the afore-mentioned example). So please assume good faith, and please try to avoid at least the appearance of personal attacks on me by at least appearing to imply that I only care about deaths in America but not Pakistan.
5) Meanwhile, as far as I'm concerned, this attack remains insufficiently exceptional and therefore insufficiently notable for ITN.
5b) Put another way, about 200,000 people died on this day, give or take maybe 50,000. Why should I be expected to accept that none of them are notable except the tiny handful whose posting just might help to cause more such deaths, and why should I not be allowed think and say that I don't think those particular deaths are so exceptionally notable as to warrant posting at ITN (in this case that 13 deaths are each individually about 200,000/13=about 16,000 times more notable than all the other deaths), and why should my vote be ignored if I think and say so (but accepted if I think but don't say so)?
Support. The article seems ready now, in terms of quality. The event itself was always notable enough. After all, one of the criteria for In the News is simply that it be in the news, and all but one of our current articles are about events that happened over a week ago. Inatan (talk) 19:33, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
At least 3 of these have articles of the necessary quality to have been featured (although that may not have been the case at the time). Do you know by any chance if any of them were? Inatan (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think the opportunistic transvestism of people who would otherwise stone transvestites makes this noteworthy enough to post. μηδείς (talk) 20:56, 3 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(As I've sort-of already said above, but without most of these facts and figures) I can't see anything remotely notable about this - if we post (as is looking very likely) it will be the 6th terrorist attack in Pakistan posted by us so far just for this year, and one of the least deadly of these, and possibly the least deadly of them. (And for all I know there may have been other deadlier attacks that we didn't post).
And this posting pattern also gives our readers a very distorted view of what Pakistan is really like (for instance, over 1 million have died in Pakistan in the past year, with over 99.9% of these deaths being unrelated to terrorism).
But by posting this totally non-notable story we will also be sending a message to every terrorist in Pakistan and elsewhere (and to every critic of Wikipedia in Pakistan and elsewhere, who will in my view be 100% justified) that if you kill about a dozen Pakistanis (or people from other non-Western countries) you will get very little front-page coverage in the West to help with your funding and recruiting, except on Wikipedia where you will get several days on the front page.
The purpose of ITN is not to post non-notable stories that just might help kill Pakistanis and other non-Westerners, nor to give readers a distorted view of the world, nor to provide ammo for Wikipedia's critics (indeed any rules that lead to that result are supposed to be ignored per WP:IAR). (Nor is that the purpose of WP:WORLDWIDE either).
But it looks like I'm wasting my time, so I'll be saying no more, at least not on this occasion (and possibly not in future either, especially if, as I expect, I never get around to writing some criticism of Wikipedia elsewhere).
WP:BIAS does not contradict ITN as it does not suggest the anti-western agenda that many here seem to think. It merely acknowledges that BIAS exists and editors should try to expand their worldview, not enforce that worldview on readers. The purpose states that we are helping readers find things 1) they are already looking for or 2) things that might interest them. In both cases, serving this purposes means western-centric stories, as any audience cares more about their locality than the other side of the world. GCG (talk) 12:56, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The actual news media seems to have taken a giant yawn on this. I didn't see it in the headlines even when it was fresh, certainly not now. Sad, but not notable. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 16:05, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Fixed @Irn and Zigzig20s: I've added a citation to the second paragraph. Nika de Hitch (talk) 07:33, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
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) other considerations. Tlhslobus (talk) 09:33, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
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Done - Stormy clouds (talk) 16:12, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
Done by User:Irn. Marking ready given consensus. Stormy clouds (talk) 19:32, 18 December 2017 (UTC)
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