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France orders an official investigation into the crash of AirAsia Flight 8501 which had a French copilot flying the aircraft at the time of its crash. (AFP via France 24)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support and needs attention. Ok, I'm a bit biased on this one, Lizabeth was one of my favorite actresses of the period. But I say her iconic status makes the grade. Rhodesisland (talk) 10:52, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Lead story on the BBC and NBC News, also lots of coverage from elsewhere in the world as indicated by other links above. Video has not been confirmed to be authentic, hence use of "allegedly". Everymorningtalk23:15, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We can't have an item every time ISIS kills someone, even if it's a Westerner and on video. Sad as it is, ISIS beheading people is a frequent event. There's no indication of why this particular incidence should be treated differently. There's already a link to a relevant article in Ongoing Events. Modest Geniustalk18:48, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: McEwan had a long career on screen and in the theatre, she won a BAFTA and was perhaps best known for playing Miss Marple in recent years. JuneGloom07Talk18:22, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Be aware, please, that's not what I said. I said her face was recognizable to Americans, not that she was solely identified with Miss Marple. Again, I'd like to hear more from our friends acrost the pond. μηδείς (talk) 22:24, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose along the likes of TRM. One BAFTA may be significant, but the current shape of the article doesn't give an impression of how important she was as an actress - it's all rote details like rolls and the like. While her key role is memorable, I don't think that's sufficient alone here. --MASEM (t) 22:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. Had she accepted the damehood that she reportedly turned down in 2002, her notability quotient would presumably be higher - but, in any case,a very well known and respected actress to UK TV, film (Wallace and Gromit, etc.) and theatre audiences. Article not the greatest, though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I am not seeing where she is particularly influential or important in her field. She appears to be an actor (a term I use without gender) of very long experience, but not among the most lauded or the most well-known or widely-regarded. Challenger l (talk) 02:33, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
You do realize that these two nominations are of two different types, one is ITNC and the other is RD? ;) I agree that it would help to have better references though the president part is fine in principle. --Tone22:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in the distant future, when Mattarella has some accomplishments as president, we can look at them. Otherwise, it's a ceremonial post, and we should never have posted the resignation of the prior holder of this office. And where's the discussion by which this became a part of ITNR? μηδείς (talk) 23:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering why you are now questioning the posting of changes in head of state when it has been done somewhat consistently the entire time I have been here. I in no way am suggesting any nefarious motive but I am just curious as to why now. 331dot (talk) 03:47, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The President of Italy is not like the Vice President of the US, and it is not just a ceremonial post. Among the other things he dissolves the Parliament and names the PM: please note that, while in some cases he has "hands tied" in other cases he has not, and he can decide whether or not to dissolve Parliament, and who to name as PM (as it happened e.g. with Mario Monti a few years ago). Anyway, Mattarella is going to be sworn on February 3rd: we may wait for Tuesday to write something like Sergio Mattarella is sworn as the 12th President of Italy. --Jaqen (talk) 10:30, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There shouldn't be any need for support as this is on ITNR, but for some reason people are questioning this. It's the succession of a new head of state, ergo should be posted. I am agnostic on whether we should post now or when he actually assumes the office. Modest Geniustalk18:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Austrian-American and Bulgarian chemist, novelist, and playwright who is known for his contribution to the development of oral contraceptive pills - The Herald (here I am) 14:04, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support I did not know him before, but he contributed a major medical revolution of the 20th century which also had huge impact on western society. there seems to have been work done referencing his article since first assessment, so I guess quality should not stand in the way now either. Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that "attention needed" doesn't normally equate to "please can more people come and look at it", it's usually to alert an admin in the event that an article is ready to be assessed for pushing to the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Per the header instructions at top, the proper term is [Ready] rather than [Attention needed]. In any case, this isn't ready so I've removed that header. Mamyles (talk) 16:04, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support. Seems to meet DC2 as a former head of state, and additionally the first of a reunified Germany. Article seems in OK shape. 331dot (talk) 14:02, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per AmaryllisGardener. Huge swaths of text have no reference at all, if that is fixed, consider this vote equivalent to an enthusiastic support. But unless and until article quality issues are corrected, it should not be on the main page advertising itself as the best we have to offer. --Jayron3221:22, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I thought you might have looked at the article. For instance, the entire "Early life" section is completely unreferenced. "Other activities (selection)" section is entirely unsourced. "List of state visits" section has not one single reference. I apologise, I thought it was obvious what the referencing issues were. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I did look at it, as I look at each nominated article; please don't assume that what is obvious to you is obvious to everyone else. I saw many references at the bottom of the page so I initially thought that was sufficient. 331dot (talk) 11:26, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the unsolicited opinion about my approaches. That isn't what I solely based my decision on but I don't really think this page is for analyzing my decisions. 331dot (talk) 12:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, but worth admins closing ITN candidates understanding that your support isn't based on whether an article is correctly referenced, just has lots of references. Certainly significant here. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:12, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry I'm not as familiar with referencing as you are. Frankly I didn't think the sections without references were just made up and that perhaps the references were just not properly placed or something. Perfect should not be the enemy of good. 331dot (talk) 22:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody mentioned perfect. Someone mentioned whole sections without a single reference. Your frankness is laudable but doesn't help improve the content of Wikipedia, does it? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:15, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose regardless of quality, the role was ceremonial. I was studying German in high school and university during the entire time of his presidency, and he never played a role comparable to any of the Helmuts. μηδείς (talk) 22:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC) [see below][reply]
Comment – Although von Weizsäcker is a famous name in Germany (and in German history), I don't believe it's widely known in the English-speaking world (although, since Richard studied in Britain, perhaps he's more widely known there). OTOH, he was a head of state – at a key time. Undecided. Sca (talk) 13:55, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Major political figure in an important country at an important time. Maybe not widely known in the UK, but sufficiently well-known that his omission from RD would seem extremely strange. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:52, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please re-assess!!: I included a lot of references to the early life and political career sections, mostly from German biographies. They might not be ideal since they are inconvinient for English speaking readers but on the other hand they have more academic reliability than internet sources. Also added some english news items as references. Good to go? Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Good work on the sarcasm. I am quite new to editing Wikipedia. If in the past 13 years that Weizsäcker was alive and Wikipedia was around no one cared to produce a decent article about one of the world's major leaders than maybe I am not to blame if my references that I put together in a couple of hours are not up to highest standards. I still feel that the article is now in a shape that allows it to go on the Main Page. Zwerg Nase (talk) 21:26, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support the article has been quite nicely updated, 5kb of new text. There remain just a few cn tags--I'll change to support from my oppose once these are addressed.
Thanks for the tags! I believe I got them all. Concerning the state visit table: I believe it could simply be erased from the article, but I did not want to make that decision by myself. If it stands in the way of him going to RD because it is not referenced, we might just kick it out for the moment until I can find references for every trip? But that might take some time and I believe we should put him in RD now since it's already quite embarassing that it takes Wikipedia 2 days to put him on the Main Page... Zwerg Nase (talk) 23:01, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I hid the section by commenting it out. The nomination can go forward and the section can be easily restored once we have sources. (Marked Ready). μηδείς (talk) 03:42, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The new Greek government, represented by finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, meets with Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the head of the Eurogroup, and declares that Greece now rejects any further cooperation with its main international lenders known as the troika (the Eurogroup, the IMF, and the ECB); instead, it wants to negotiate directly with other European countries. (Deutsche Welle)
Health
The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report that this season's influenza hospitalizations of 65-year-old and older Americans hit a record high since the 2005-2006 season. (AP)
Two balloonists, Troy Bradley of the United States and Leonid Tiukhtyaev of Russia, are crossing the Pacific Ocean in the Two Eaglesgas balloon and have surpassed the distance and duration records for straight gas balloons. They are set to land in Mexico on Saturday. (BBC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
I think we do need to include additional references at least to a degree where it is reasonable to remove the orange tag. That doesn't necessarily mean creating an impeccably referenced article. There's also some material under "Author" which looks to me like original research. Someone should investigate that and remove it if it is. Formerip (talk) 13:15, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree; my only point was that tags do not need to be fixed in order to be nominated as Seattle's rationale suggests. 331dot (talk) 13:58, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I might work on it tomorrow. That said, opposes based on article quality usually say something like "Oppose, until the article is improved.", not blaming the nominator. --AmaryllisGardenertalk04:22, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For me there's still about 30% unreferenced, so no, but thanks for your efforts so far, much better than those who blindly have supported without bothering to read and assess the quality of the article. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:54, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: President Mugabe is elected as the new Chairman of the continental union at the age of 90. He had also led the AU's predecessor, the Organisation of African Unity (in 1997-8). I believe this is a Recurring Event under the Elections section - the EU acts as a precedent. The event is significant as evidenced by its coverage in the major media houses. Ali Fazal (talk) 12:41, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This is not ITNR so I have removed it. If it is thought that the AU should be added that should be discussed at ITNR's talk page. I'm not sure the AU is equal in stature to the EU in terms of structure or influence on its member countries. 331dot (talk) 14:36, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As far as I can tell, this is equivalent to the EU's rotating presidency, which we do not post. It's a largely ceremonial role (AU Chairperson doesn't have much power) which changes regularly, and the holder is always more notable as a head of state than as AU chairperson. The actual leader of the AU is the Chairperson of the African Union Commission (yes, it's confusing that they're both called "chairperson", just as it's confusing that the EU has four presidents), currently Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma. If we did post AU leadership news, that position is the one to post (next election/appointment in 2016). Smurrayinchester15:30, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This strikes me as a weak reason to oppose. Regardless, I do oppose as well because the actual head of the African Union, like in the European Union, is the head of the Union Commission, not the chairperson. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 20:00, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Mjroots:I agree that is a poor reason to oppose; very little would be posted if we only posted things about good people or good events. Publicity and legitimacy are not our concern; only what meets criteria for posting. 331dot (talk) 22:08, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's a completely irrelevant and invalid reason to oppose. We are not here to make judgments about Mugabe or attempt to deny him publicity. There are good reason to oppose this, but that isn't one. Neljack (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I totally disagree with Mjroots. Whilst the editor is entitled to his/her own opinion; I believe it goes against the grain of Wikipedia's NPOV policy. It may appear thus as untoward and biased - given the fact that Zimbabwe was a former colony of this editor's country of residence and therefore not befitting. The fact of the matter is that Mugabe has been elected by the continent's leaders and will serve his mandate. I have made a proposal at the ITN/R talkpage and would appreciate if you could take a look. Ali Fazal (talk) 23:44, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe the reason is a weak one, but the opposition is still strong. As for Mugabe being elected, that is only because he rigged the last election that enabled him to be in a position to be the head of state elected to chairman of the AU. Mugabe is an international pariah, and should be treated as such, even by Wikipedia. Doing so does not break NPOV because Wikipedia would merely be following the rest of the world. Mjroots (talk) 07:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia should not be used to make judgements of any kind. We can certainly tell people what RS state, but we aren't here to add or detract from any status Mugabe has. 331dot (talk) 10:53, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't denied the opposition from other editors to this nomination. Forgive my digression, but I'd like to state this for the record. What I meant regarding the NPOV was that both extreme views ought to be included on Wikipedia without bias i.e. his status as a nationalist hero and the other controversies. And that is why I disagree with your rationale of giving him "publicity or legitimacy; and Wikiepdia treating him as such" Why should Wikipedia ONLY follow the "rest of the world?" By saying this, you exclude those who disagree with your POV. As for the 2013 elections, the AU declared it as free whilst others questioned its legitimacy. Therefore, from an NPOV both views ought to be expressed here. Since yesterday's announcement, the page hits on both these articles: AU Chair and Mugabe increased by 394% and 196% respectively. This shows the level of interest of our readers has increased. Numbers don't lie and I hope these statistics will enable you all to re-consider your prior decision. Ali Fazal (talk) 13:12, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose Not an "election election" with voting open to average citizens, seems like kind of a backroom thing. Not sure if this will impact anything significantly. But, it can't hurt putting it in ITN. Busy Moose (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for lack of a sufficient update (per TRM) and because, even if it was updated, this is still a story about a ceremonial position, not one equivalent to the EU presidency (per Smurrayinchester). BencherliteTalk11:49, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A coronial inquest into the siege at the Lindt Cafe in the center of Sydney begins. The inquest hears that one hostage was killed by gunman Man Haron Monis while another was killed by fragments of a bullet or bullets fired by New South Wales Police Force officers. (The Australian)(BBC)
ShiiteHouthi rebels seize a Yemeni military base south of the capital, Sana'a, where U.S. military advisers once trained Yemeni counterterrorism forces to fight Al-Qaeda in the south of the country. Forces loyal to former President Ali Abdullah Saleh had manned the captured base. (Wall Street Journal)
A Nieto Express propane gas tanker truck explodes near the loading dock of a maternity and children's hospital (Hospital Materno Infantil Cuajimalpa) in Mexico City, collapsing much of the hospital with at least three deaths and 70 people injured, 22 of whom are children. (AP)(AFP/Reuters via ABC News Australia)(New York Daily News)
Without recovering any physical evidence, including the data recorders, Malaysia officially declares the loss of Flight 370 over the Indian Ocean an accident meaning that victims families can seek compensation. (USA Today)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: One of the deadliest attacks in the Sinai insurgency so far. The last one (which was the deadliest) wasn't posted for lack of attention even though the article was in good shape. This one may need some expansion, but I won't work on it until tomorrow, if no one gets there. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 23:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose article is very easy to read because it has little to no content, just an intro and a list of names. Expand beyond a stub and perhaps it's worth consideration. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want this to die out like the previous Sinai nomination, and therefore I've marked it. Three more sections were added to the article: casualties, damage and reactions (domestic and foreign). Any further recommendations? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 19:07, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, still oppose, the majority of the article and its bytes is a seriously over-heaped section on the reaction. Without the super-heavy reaction section, you have 270 words about the event itself. That's sub-stub. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:17, 1 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Marked header again. To be honest, this may be the first time I hear that "bytes" defined article quality (it's just that there are many refs in the reactions section), but I think it looks fairly good now. Now I hope you don't expect me to build a B-class, or even C-class, article so soon, do you? This is still a developing story, despite being two days old. I'm currently fishing for details to add, and this is all I can find for now, unless you want to discuss the merits. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 01:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well until recently, a B-class article was the minimum expected from most articles to be posted at ITN. I advocated that it be removed, which it duly was, but not because the principle of a quality article should be maintained, more because nobody, reviewers nor posting admins, paid any attention to the class. In any case, the article is in a far better state now than when I reviewed it. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: According to the New York Times, The Thorn Birds "became an international best seller and inspired a hugely popular television mini-series". It also sold 30 million copies worldwide (see CNN link). This seems to indicate that McCullough was a very important figure in her field. Everymorningtalk20:39, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I've tagged items in the article which currently remain unreferenced, there are plenty of things that need addressing. Otherwise she was a highly popular author and worthy of consideration here, particularly with The Thorn Birds. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:04, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
support in principle, hugely notable writer of historical fiction; will be personally unable to contribute to article improvements myself before Sunday. μηδείς (talk) 22:10, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ready I have added about 700b of sourcing, removed some farcical or circular claims, and hidden material like the Candice Bergen 1996 TV adaptation Mary & Tim for which there are no sources. The article is untagged as of this edit. It might be appropriate to add others as updaters based on the history. μηδείς (talk) 20:29, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
You seem to be opposing on two points, but I don't understand your argument. First, you say you oppose because there were no deaths... but death is not a requirement for news! Second, it is not ongoing news. However, I don't think 'ongoing' is a requirement either? Therefore, I cannot follow your argument. prat (talk) 00:22, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My point was that if it was ongoing, then some fatalities may occur. And I don't think this is getting very much attention from the news, at least not so far. --AmaryllisGardenertalk00:26, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is significant global media coverage... certainly the US, across Europe, and even here in Australia. Remember, this event is only a few hours old. The question of fatalities still seems irrelevant to me. prat (talk) 00:38, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose While interesting, the event is rather insignificant in that there is virtually no national or international repercussions. But thank you for putting forward the nomination - we definitely don't get enough around here lately. Mamyles (talk) 00:49, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What is required is for an event to be judged as significant by the community. I'm not sure if you have or not but please review WP:ITN for some general guidelines. National and international repercussions certainly help; merely being in the news is not sufficent. --331dot (talk) 02:13, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, WP:ITN states under Purpose the following points, all of which I believe suit this nomination very well.
To help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news.
To showcase quality Wikipedia content on current events.
To point readers to subjects they might not have been looking for but nonetheless may interest them.
Right, the criteria is presently an unstructured waffle that self-reports as subjective. Its main two points, 'quality' and 'significance' are inherently POV. prat (talk) 02:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The only connection I see to Charlie Hebdo is that media security was discussed; I don't see any other connection from what I looked at. --331dot (talk) 02:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Improve The last update prior to his death was October 2013, the current update consists of citations (good) and a mere mention he has died. The article could use better formatting into sections, and an explicit rationale for his posting given, since it is standing policy that we don't post people just because they got the Nobel. μηδείς (talk) 19:36, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose the "Life" section is mainly about olefin metathesis and not really his life at all. And then suddenly it talks about his life midway through the fourth paragraph... The lead contains items that aren't expanded upon in the main part of the article. FWIW, there's a nice quote from Chauvin in this article about his embarrassment at receiving the Nobel Prize. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:06, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Considering Charles H. Townes, Chauvin should be posted in RD as well. The article does seem a little slim though.. if someone could add some more information, I would change to an unconditional support. Zwerg Nase (talk) 14:28, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Five gunmen at the LibyanCorinthia Hotel in Tripoli attack with at least ten dead. The hotel was previously the location in 2013 where a former prime minister was abducted. (AP)
Nominator's comments: An ISIS-affiliated group has claimed responsibility for the attack (see CS Monitor link above). The event itself has received coverage from around the world. Everymorningtalk16:03, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Suppprt but think the article's a bit too thin at this point (even considering the expansion after Monopoly's comment above). --MASEM (t) 22:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article is handsome, but light on prose, especially the body text, and has only three sources, so I am marking unupdated for now, but it really should go up as soon as it can be a little improved. μηδείς (talk) 19:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose - A non-Muslim doesn't do a thing expected of Muslims. Next you'll be telling me her husband won't be making Hajj. This is a non-story. AlexTiefling (talk) 05:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose as of yet. The article hasn't got the required three full prose paragraph minimum even for a new article: it's just a bare list. Also, there's long-standing precedent that having won a Nobel is not by itself sufficient for a listing. μηδείς (talk) 01:38, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the article has been improved somewhat, but things like the unsourced "2012 - Boy Scouts of America named their Webelos SUPERNOVA award for Townes" don't help. μηδείς (talk) 03:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support for RD. (As a minor point, note that "Charles Townes" or "Charles H. Townes" appear most commonly in sources, not the form with the full middle name.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:34, 29 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At this point there's a federal meteorologist apologizing for the misforecast, and nothing out of the ordinary for New England. μηδείς (talk) 01:15, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: The predictions were for a blizzard of historic proportions. It looks like that we won't get it quite that badly, but it's still a significant disruption. States of emergency are underway. There were travel bans overnight. And we have our first death. – Muboshgu (talk) 13:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until the storm has concluded or nearly so and its effects can be better judged. I live in the affected area and it is significant but we should have a better handle on what the effects are before judging if it should be posted or not. 331dot (talk) 13:50, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The proposed blurb is sensationalist. The storm did not "cripple" anywhere, the authorities prepared weeks for this and there is so far a very low death toll. Most "crippling," such as shutting down the New York City subway, was done in anticipation and possible over-preparedness of the storm. Mamyles (talk) 15:28, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment the BBC are referring to this as "Storm Juno", that would appear to be more appropriate than "a nor'easter". But in any case, it seems like the US was well prepared for this and as such is not really a stupendously interesting item, so weak oppose. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:28, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now This storm was well-forecasted, and everyone that had power to took steps to reduce risks to residents (eg the entire shutdown of NYC yesterday). Yes much of the NE is shut down, but it is not like a surprise of the like. If the storm hit, stranded thousands and risked serious loss of life, that would be different. I agree with the wait comments that if something serious does happen, we can include it then --MASEM (t) 16:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this was a huge bust in comparison to the predictions of NYC's "biggest storm ever". The current headlines are "snow job", "meteorologists apologize", "analyse modesl". Thery're getting 12" in Boston, which happens regularly during what is called winter.
Support There's a state of emergency in several states. This should be seen as comparable to a large hurricane, thus the new naming attempts. Busy Moose (talk) 18:46, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While there is a state of emergency, it is not because they were unprepared, but to make sure critical services like fire/ambulances/etc. have the necessary priority/rights of way to deal with emergencies or the like (take the street parking ban NYC enacted), as well as to restore life to normal as soon after the snow has stopped. --MASEM (t) 18:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But ultimately it's just unpleasant weather, something that the US and many other parts of the world see regularly. This is in no way more notable than any other snow storm that might put a few people out. Moreover, it now looks like the powers that be are being criticised for overplaying the whole thing. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:31, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That (the criticism at the overreaction) might be the story for ITN at the end of the day , but damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's winter, blizzards happen, this is nowhere close to the worst blizzard the NE has seen. --MASEM (t) 19:35, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You both might be totally correct and I'm not saying this should be posted. I was only saying that some areas have indeed gotten what was initially predicted. 331dot (talk) 19:37, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: "Suspected murder" may now be fair, based on statements from government officials, including the president. But, for the morbidly cautious, I have added an altblurb anyway. We seriously under-represent Latin America on ITN. Formerip (talk) 00:05, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - We'll still wait until the official dissolution of that agency and the foundation of the promised other. Kirchner's words don't become official until things happen officially. --George Ho (talk) 03:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Major development. If David Cameron said he was going to dissolve MI-5 or Obama said he was going to disband the CIA, it would be stupendous news. Kirchner may just have signed her own death warrant. Abductive (reasoning)04:44, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose All that has been announced is that the President will propose a bill to replace the agency with a new one. It would be highly misleading to say that she has "announce[d] the dissolution of the Secretaría de Inteligencia" when, as I understand it, she has no such power and the dissolution will only happen if Congress approves the bill she is going to propose. Also, the blurb should refer to her as "Cristina Fernández de Kirchner", not Cristina Kirchner, as that is the title of her article and she is widely referred to as such - indeed the BBC article linked to refers to "Ms Fernandez", rather than "Ms Kirchner". Neljack (talk) 07:18, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support We've got Kirchner saying this was a murder to set her up, the lead investigative journalist fleeing the country, the victim shot point blank in the forehead (go ahead, try to do that yourself) and the country's top secret spy agency dissolved, the last of which alone would normally merit a posting. μηδείς (talk) 01:19, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support We didn't post this death earlier because the details were murky - they are now clearer in the direction of state sponsored assassination. And per Medeis, a spy agency dissolved alone is noteworthy. But, it seems to me that if this event is notable it should have its own article. Mamyles (talk) 04:58, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb. Shutting down a country's intelligence agency is a big deal - imagine if this was Obama shutting down the CIA. The issue is murky, but this specific action is clear and provides a good point to post the story. Modest Geniustalk13:56, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support pending article fixes on qualifications, but there's a paragraph under "Other creations" and "Personal life" that need sourcing. (Also, I know there's a ref on the blockquote but the ref# is not appearing for me. Dunno if this needs to be checked for template change?) --MASEM (t) 21:20, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support - per Jayron. Death of someone at the top of a field is notable, although I'm not sure if he's at the top in a national rather than international sense. Busy Moose (talk) 18:49, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support, good work not he article, if only some of those early supporters had even bothered looking at the article and improve it, we could have been doing this a while ago. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Just coming on here to nominate this myself. The artist sold more than 60 million records, which to me qualifies him for RD. The article does need some work though which needs to be fixed before it gets linked to from the main page. Miyagawa (talk) 13:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose solely on article quality grounds. Would support if article was up-to-snuff (I don't like to bold the support part when the article quality is poor, it can mislead posting admin into thinking this is good enough to post.) --Jayron3217:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Amending vote to full Support article is fixed up, and looks good enough for the main page. No problem seeing this make the RD list! --Jayron3215:32, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Jayron. I won't tag the article, not being familiar with him. But it strikes my interest that he's associated with Vangelis and the Blade Runner soundtrack. Neveretheless, that's a bit short of the needs of RD. He's not included in list of best-selling music artists. μηδείς (talk) 21:21, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Praise be for some attention to article quality. Roussos was prolific and notable so a reasonable call for RD but I was shocked by how poor the article was. Glad to see some sense prevailing rather than the usual bandwagon of support. I'll happily support once the article is improved beyond the C-class we have right now with bags of unreferenced info. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A massive blackout strikes Pakistan, leaving as much as 80 percent of the country without electricity at its height as officials rush to restore power. (AP)
Nominator's comments: A total of 54 people are killed in the incident and hundreds are displaced in the follow up.This puts an end to the Bangsamoro peace process and threatens an escalation of the conflict. --Catlemur (talk) 21:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
WaitSupport - the following issues have since been addressed >>> I think that the article is unreasonably biased toward the police. From current information from reliable sources like BBC, I see a lack of evidence to call this an "ambush." It seems more like a case of mis-communication. I am adding an orange WP:POV tag to the article which will need to be worked through prior to posting. Mamyles (talk) 23:11, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(In my opinion) An ambush is a surprise attack with the surprise element often coming from mis communication of the victims, I can't fathom the reasoning behind the POV tag.Should we also put POV tags on every article describing a victory as pyrrhic?--Catlemur (talk) 23:28, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's normal for an article to be sourced by more than one source, and include multiple points of view. Besides for a possible lack of opposing viewpoints and a POV title, the article is otherwise written quite well, and once it is expanded I will likely support posting to ITN. Mamyles (talk) 23:32, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as a rather inscrutable rationale--help out we who are unfamiliar with the underlying story and why it should be posted. Words like "incident" and "displaced" are too vague to evaluate. μηδείς (talk) 02:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In essence, 392 Philippine special operations police set out to arrest two terrorists and were attacked by a rebel group during the operation. The clash resulted in at least 54 dead, 49 of them police. This event is significant both because of the high death toll for a police operation, and that a peace treaty with the rebels was postponed/cancelled as a result of this incident. Mamyles (talk) 16:07, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Especially when neutrality is questioned, only having 2 references (from the same publisher) is insufficient. The article should have a wider variety of sources. SpencerT♦C03:18, 28 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose for now on article quality, seriously lacking in references. Not good enough to be considered "showcase" quality. Oh, and that lead..... that lead.... The Rambling Man (talk) 15:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose From the article lead: "He is the pioneer of the TV Talk Show format and claimed to have interviewed over 400,000 guests during his 43 year television career, which may have been an exaggeration.[2]" The claim is both outrageous "the pioneer?" and admittedly exaggerated. μηδείς (talk) 17:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: As far as I know, the X Games have never been featured in ITN. I believe they are notable enough to be posted to ITN. Today is the final day of the Winter X Games in Aspen. I did not include a blurb as the event is not finished yet and the medal count will change one more time.Andise1 (talk) 01:16, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The criteria describe two main grounds for inclusion. The first is the quality of the updated content, which, as noted by Nergaal, is close to zero in this case. The second is the significance of the developments described. The fact that almost half the medal winners are redlinks is a fair indication of which way this one leans. Looking for extra information in the X_Games article doesn't help, as it reads like an advertisement for ESPN. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 05:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose solely on article quality grounds. Article is a mess, FAR from updated sufficiently, not something I would be proud to put on the main page. I'm generally in favor of posting almost anything which meets quality standards. This isn't it. --Jayron3210:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: One of figure skating's brightest stars and most influential innovators. Was a living legend in the figure skating world, both for his innovative artistry on ice and for his later work. He never won the Olympics due to the compulsory figures components - which are no longer compulsory. He is considered one of the driving forces behind modern artistry in free skating. (Edited nomination to add core US and worldwide sources which equally acknowledge his importance.) Tenebris 198.91.170.20 (talk) 19:28, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Tags have been dealt with, and were tangential to his core career in any case. - Tenebris 21:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Neutral: Tough one to call. On one hand, his career wasn't exactly overflowing with prestigious awards - but on the other hand, the article does lay claim to him being influential and something of a trend-setter. Eh.... --Adam in 成都市 (talk) 22:53, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not usual for the nominator to respond to comments and votes, but everyone seems to be overlooking that Cranston did repeatedly win world "best" medals for free skating in the World Figure Skating Championships. These were separate medals given out for the free skating component of the scores, which today makes up the entirety of the judging. At that time, the other major component was compulsory figures. Public and judging demand after Cranston's continual 3rds and 4ths, especially after winning the free skating component, was a major factor in why compulsory figures were removed from the modern Worlds and Olympics. - Tenebris 198.91.170.20 (talk) 21:53, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I took care of all the tags (which did not relate to his core career in any case); so I will try one more time. Toller Cranston was far more influential to his sport on a worldwide basis than Ernie Banks was to his. Modern figure skating changed in large part because of him. Consider that Toller Cranston was inducted into the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame (located in the US) in the company of various repeated Olympic and world gold medal winners -- in spite of never having won an Olympic gold medal himself. That was the value other figure skaters put on him.
Influential - a large part of the reason compulsory figures no longer exist as part of worldwide figure skating competition is because both the audience and the judges felt that Cranston deserved higher results than his repeated bronzes at world levels, but was held back by compulsory figures. World-class figure skaters today are no longer judged on the basis of compulsory figures, but that change did not happen until after Cranston retired from competitive figure skating. His wish to put an adult-level "theatre on ice" also made him one of the seminal figures in the gradual recognition that high caliber non-competitive figure skating performance could be hugely popular (and profitable). This legacy is visible in the existence of (eg) Stars on Ice. (Before that, non-competitive performances were much lower caliber and targeted a less knowledgeable audience, eg. Ice Capades.)
Oh, and Cranston was also awarded the Order of Canada, Canada's equivalent to the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Both this and the World Figure Skating Hall of Fame induction were already in the article when I first nominated it. - Tenebris 198.91.170.20 (talk) 16:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) The Order of Canada is not the equivalent of the Presidential Medal of Freedom. The Order has three ranks: from highest to lowest, these are Companions, Officers, and Members. Up to 15 Companions can be appointed each year, subject to a total maximum of 165; up to 64 Officers, and up to 136 Members (no limit on the total in the lower two classes). [3] On 26 December 2014 [4] 3 Companions, 13 Officers and 79 Members were appointed - and similar numbers are appointed in each group twice a year. Obama has awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom a mere 79 or 80 times since taking office, in comparison [5]. According to his article, Cranston was a Member of the Order of Canada - that is, the lowest grade. No comment on your other arguments, but your comparison to the Presidential Medal of Freedom is a bad one. BencherliteTalk16:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your listing of people from a different era completely is genuinely misleading. Five of the six people you list are figure skating pioneers from the 1920s-40s, all of whom retired from competitive skating before 1950. The last, Janet Lynn, is still the youngest person ever to compete at the highest level for the US (age 11); to the point of landing a triple salchow jump at age 13 -- five US national titles and a World silver at her retirement. Incidentally, Lynn was another person whose competitive scores were lowered to non-gold levels by compulsory figures, although for her it was less obvious. - Tenebris 198.91.170.20 (talk) 16:22, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not misleading at all, it's purely factual. None of those that I listed won a gold medal, that was your claim to significance of his induction, wasn't it? In fact, I probably only found half or so of the inductees had won a gold. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely. People are inducted into the Hall of Fame based on their contribution to the sport -- which is not limited to their competitive contribution. However, to compare accurately, you really should choose to compare people from the same era. (Look up how early Olympic competitors were chosen sometime. It is quite entertaining.) Two other people were inducted at the same time as Toller Cranston: Midori Ito and Jutta Müller. Midori Ito never won higher than silver, but she was the first woman to complete seven triple jumps in a free program -- consistently the same jump content as the men. Jutta Müller's competitive skating successes were limited to the national level, but she coached her students to three Olympic gold medals and ten world champion titles.
Yet you seem to be saying that neither of these people are "really" RD or even Hall-of-Fame material because they never actually won Olympic gold themselves. By that same standard, Ernie Banks should not be Hall-of-Fame or RD-notable, since he never won the World Series. - Tenebris 16:57, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
As to the Order of Canada, you may have slightly misunderstood both the award and that ranking. Even at their very best, a sports figure in Canada -- any sports figure in Canada -- would never be awarded anything other than the Officer level of the order of Canada, no matter how exceptional they are. That is the maximum a sports figure can achieve, where achievement does not go outside the field of sports -- because the "Member" level specifically acknowledges regional contribution, "Officer" level specifically acknowledges talent on an international level, and the "Companion" specifically acknowledges the "humanity" of the contribution (must extend beyond a single professional field). For example, astronauts Roberta Bondar and Chris Hadfield both received the "Officer" level of the Order of Canada. The Presidential Medal of Freedom is equally intended to recognize truly exceptional people, but it has no similar ranking to acknowledge different types of exceptionality. Canada also does not have any additional award equivalent to the Congressional Gold Medal -- the Order of Canada is pretty much it at that level.
Probably not a good idea to compare actual numbers of people given the medal (even if # of people awarded the Congressional Gold Medal are added in), since that way lies a very slippery slope examining each country's assessment of its own citizens, or even whether one country does genuinely produce more internationally exceptional individuals per capita than another. - Tenebris 16:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
It was you who made the initial comparison. I know nothing about either award yet it seems freely available in Canada compared to its US counterpart with which you equated it. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose I'm not confident that he meets the criteria of "very important figure in his field." He may have been the best in Canada for a string of years, but that falls short of "widely recognized" or "very important." Mamyles (talk) 16:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Except that he was the best in the world in figure skating artistic expression for many years running, and had *those* medals (the free skating medals at the World Championships) to prove it. He also had a long string of perfect 6.0s in artistic expression judging, both at the World Championships and at the Olympics. Athletes have been previously included in RD simply for being among the best in their own country, Ernie Banks being a direct example. While we don`t use precedents to decide RD priorities, we should at least not apply double standards. - Tenebris 198.91.170.20 (talk) 20:24, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I find it hard to believe that you think holding a Bronze medal makes him the best in the world. I understand your point of view, that he is well respected in Canada and the sport, but I maintain my opinion that the bar for ITN:RD is not met here. Mamyles (talk) 20:43, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
He holds specific free skating world medals, given for the best in that area in the same competition, in addition to the bronze he earned which is based on three types of skating. This is also made clear in the article. Compared to, say, baseball, it would be like being the best pitcher in the world, but never once having won the World Series and only coming in third overall in all baseball skills averaged.
For those for whom it isn't clear, the respect for Toller Cranston's influence goes far, far beyond Canada. NYTimes calls him the "Nureyev of figure skating". Fox Sports calls him a "figure skating legend". I edited the nomination to include these and other international major media eulogies from Europe and even as far abroad as Malaysia (not a figure skating country!). So no, his reputation is not just about Canada. ... Although I can't help but notice that the same "local only" objection was not made for the RD for Ernie Banks, not even by one person. Again, could we please try not to have a double standard in how we judge nominations? - Tenebris
Is that the same Fox broadcasting network that used an expert to claim that Birmingham was a no-go zone for non-Muslims and where Muslim police beat non-Muslims?? Just checking. And is this the Banks who is widely regarded as one the best baseball players of all time, fourteen-time All-Star and member MLB all-century team? Not sure I caught that same feeling about Cranston. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:55, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Today's Greek elections have been a particularly hot news item throughout Europe. The blurb should be updated as soon as final results are available. --PanchoS (talk) 17:15, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Should be posted as soon as official results come in. The current blurb reads like a sensationalist newspaper headline. Also, the margin is irrelevant. What is relevant is if SYRIZA gets more than 150 seats or not and that, largely, depends on how many parties pass the threshold. --Երևանցիtalk22:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support for later: as soon as the actual, official results come through (if they haven't already) then this news should definitely be posted. I would advise tweaking the blurb somewhat; no need for "today's" or "large margin". Perhaps mention could be made of the fact that this is Greece's first leftist government in sixty years, although that is not essential by any means. Midnightblueowl (talk) 23:08, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Now that the preliminary results are out (97% reporting), we shouldn't wait longer but post at least the blurb. If there's a better photo I will post it here. --PanchoS (talk) 02:12, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait for initial counting (100% reporting) is complete, even if the results aren't expected to change from the final few %. --MASEM (t) 02:18, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Presidential elections are ITNR, so no discussion is required as to the merits, simply to judge quality and decide on a blurb. 331dot (talk) 11:36, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment:: I have updated the references section of the election article. I believe it is now ready to be posted. Please do consider posting this. This is quite significant as the winner's electoral margin was just 27,757 votes. Ali Fazal (talk) 16:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not ready - there is currently no prose on the results/reaction in the election article. That would normally be expected before posting. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:12, 27 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Islamic State kills eight Lebanese soldiers in the northeastern Lebanese village of Ras Baalbek. (AP)
Japan states that it is seeking to verify a video that claims the killing of Japanese hostage Haruna Yukawa by Islamic State militants. (BBC)
Business and economy
Subsequent to the January 15 announcement that Target Canada would close all 133 stores, they announce the layoff of 17,000 employees. (CBC)
Health
The measles outbreak at Disneyland (Anaheim), which originated on December 28, 2014 (patient zero being an unvaccinated California woman who apparently transmitted the virus through airports and the theme park), but was unreported until January 7, spreads from California to six other states, including Nebraska, and Mexico. It now involves at least eighty-five cases. (AJC)(CBS)
Oppose – There is no way we can post this. We didn't post Donetsk airport, which was much more important strategically and symbolically (and resulted in hundreds of deaths). Shelling has been happening daily for months across the combat zone. Plenty more people have died in Kyivsky district of Donetsk from shelling than in this relatively minor incident in Mariupol. Put things in proportion, please. This is not a "significant number of deaths" in this conflict, where at least this amount of people is dying each day, at present. RGloucester — ☎15:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree that Mariupol (around 900 000 people) is less strategically important that ruins of Donetsk Airport. Also this was peaceful part of country since July. So the fighting is spreading. --Jenda H. (talk) 18:18, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is less important, because government forces have had no problem holding onto Mariupol, despite a DPR offensive in September, and a variety of other assaults. Donetsk airport was the last part of Donetsk that government forces held, and this present "offensive" would not be possible without the loss of Donetsk airport by government forces. As you may know, Donetsk airport had hugely symbolic value to Ukrainian forces, with the "cyborgs" and all. Fighting is spreading, but Mariupol is where it is spreading least, other than this one barrage of rockets. As I said, as far as shelling is concerned, Kyivsky and Kirovsky districts of Donetsk have seen much heavier shelling for months, but no one cares about them, apparently. Much heavier fighting is going on in Delbatseve, and parts of Luhansk Oblast. This particular event simply isn't significant in proportion. RGloucester — ☎18:24, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Shameful? I believe it is shameful to strike at a person's weak points, for no apparent reason other than to have a bit of sport. That's shame, fellow, and it lies squarely on your own shoulders. I happen to be quite familiar with this topic area, and have written many of the articles we've got on the subject. It has nothing to do with whether "my nomination hasn't been posted". As I said, I have no strong opinion about whether that is posted or not. However, the idea that this should be posted, and not that, ignores the context of the war itself, and shows a lack of knowledge on the part of those proposing it. As the nominator cited "significant number of deaths" as his only reason for the nomination, it was quite clear that he is not aware that live are being lost at an insane rate in this war, and that underreporting and obfuscation mean that the situation is even worse than we know. As it stands, many more people are dying in Debaltseve (currently under assault) at this very moment than died in Mariupol. Donetsk airport, itself, was the most significant loss for Ukrainian forces since government forces retook much of the insurgent-controlled territory in the summer. Combined with the hundreds of deaths at that airport, the symbolic nature of the "cyborgs", its position as the last government position in Donetsk, and the huge amount of civilian deaths in Kyivsky and Kirovsky districts (caused by Ukrainian shelling of DPR forces who hide in apartment blocks), Donetsk airport could've been worth posting (comparable to the Battle of Ilovaisk). This, on the other hand, is a minor event in the context of this war. Shelling is everywhere, constantly, at the moment, whether in Debaltseve, or in Shchastya (convinently meaning "happiness"). No significant military operation has taken place in Mariupol, at yet, making this even more insignificant, and somewhat WP:CRYSTAL. RGloucester — ☎03:33, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak points? That's between you and your wellness provider. My point is clear and I won't further this with you in any way. μηδείς (talk) 04:05, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad, given that the sharpness of your cheddar is clear. At least I have an argument, whereas you've got very little. It isn't as if you supported posting this event, either. RGloucester — ☎04:07, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Sticky the assertion we can't post 30 deaths because we didn't post 12 is perhaps the silliest thing I have heard since Mr. 57 said he couldn't get a flight to Paris on time. In any case, we've got the two largest nations in Europe at war, but it's not worth posting? The piecemeal annihilation of the second biggest nation in europe by the first is not something one ignores becuase it happens slowly μηδείς (talk) 03:08, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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I think it is reasonable to pull. It is still a problem, yes, but stories breaking today [6] are implying that the case count is at its lowest, and while the continued treatment is threatened by some funding issues, it's not spreading like it was when this story was ongoing. If that tide significantly changes later, we can readd but I agree it can be removed from ongoing. --MASEM (t) 18:10, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking about proposing to pull it as well. Though still present, it's slowing down. Hopefully, in a couple of months, we can feature a blurb that the epidemic has ended. --Tone20:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Pull. Whether "white Americans" have gotten it or not is irrelevant; this is not getting as much attention in the news as in the past, regardless of who is getting Ebola. As suggested above, if there is some notable way to mark the end of the outbreak, that might be notable enough to post. 331dot (talk) 22:40, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
[Closed] Klay Thompson scores 37 in a quarter[edit]
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To put it in context, the most points in a game record will almost certainly never be broken, as no-one has got anywhere near it in 50 years. Points-in-a-quarter (and perhaps, at a push, points-in-a-half) are the only realistically breakable individual single-game achievements. 81.129.160.174 (talk) 21:29, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The quarter-scoring record isn't even a "major" record. If someone ties or surpasses the 100 points set by Wilt Chamberlain, perhaps it could be considered. –HTD02:44, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support - A highly notable figure in his field, and the article is indisputably in fine shape. Let's post this to RD with pride. Jusdafax10:25, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thailand's military-appointed legislature votes to impeach former Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra for her role in overseeing a government rice subsidy program that lost billions of dollars. (AP)
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Weak oppose. Yes, a worldwide nuclear war would be big news, I think, if we were still alive to talk about posting it to Wikipedia- or a global climate disaster. That said, this clock is purely a judgement call; if it was the closest ever to midnight, then maybe it would be more notable(two minutes is the closest it has been). 331dot (talk) 14:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Sorry, but this just seems like a bit of a parlour game and not even an interesting or meaningful one. A clock that spends half a century dancing about slightly before midnight is basically just a broken clock and if it was in my house, I'd have long since started ignoring it. Formerip (talk) 14:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - If you want to talk about science, I don't quite see the correlation between an arbitrarily-managed clock and the impending doom of Earth.--WaltCip (talk) 16:29, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I fail to see how this is different than something like Time magazine's man of the year of Sports Illustrated's sportsman of the year. Both of those get a lot of attention and neither are posted here (and rightfully so). -- Calidum16:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Alt I think something along these lines is better: The DM clock is set for the first time since 1988 at 3 mins from midnight. Nergaal (talk) 17:22, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Re-Opened I am reopening this, since it was only open from 7am-noon on the US East Coast and 4-9am on the west coast. The doomsday clock was a huge thing during the Cold War, with updates to it getting multi-minute segments in the nightly news. Those to young to remember the fall of the Berlin Wall may not remember the angst of the era. That the world seems to have returned to chaos not seen since the 70's, this seems a reasonable nomination. Count me as a support. μηδείς (talk) 19:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that I can edit this page, Walt? I explained my reasons. Admins' sole privilege here is posting an article. Non-admins can do anything else in good faith. PS, it won't bother me at all if isn't posted, but it was up for less than six hours, when most Americans who were even awake were just starting their commute or working day. μηδείς (talk) 21:05, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@WaltCip: No offense but, "what gives you the right to revert an admin closure?" *facepalm* admins are only needed for the posting like Medeis said. @Medeis: I don't blame you for re-opening this, but it doesn't look like it's done much good for you. --AmaryllisGardenertalk21:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Me? It has nothing to do with me. I think the clock is leftist nonsense that was mostly publicized during Republican administrations, particularly the Reagan administration, to further the goal of unilateral disarmament, for which see also nuclear winter. That being said, I don't think we should be closing nominations because a lot of anti-corporate (!) British editors who have never heard of the topic oppose it before most Americans have even gotten home from work. I'll close this myself if need be once they start going to bed in California (where they have now just started dinner), no offense to Australia and New Zealand. μηδείς (talk) 02:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't mean to offend you, I just meant, that while it was closed a little early, it was very unlikely to be supported enough to get on ITN. The reason I said "it doesn't look like it's done much good for you." is because you said "count me as a support". --AmaryllisGardenertalk02:15, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a media device that is being used to get media attention. It is not so much news as a public service announcement. I don't think this would even qualify if Wikipedia existed when it was a new idea. Chillum19:53, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose All that has really happened here is that someone has issued a press release and we shouldn't be in the business of churnalism. So far as climate change is concerned, the 2014 record which was suggested down below, would be a better entry. The Atomic Scientist clock also relates to the modernisation of nuclear weapons (and developments in the life sciences !?) but it's not clear that we have a new arms race or that upgrade programmes are increasing risk rather than lowering it. What article do we have which will explain the weapons issue to our readers? Nuclear holocaust is suggested in the nomination but the graph in the article does not seem at all alarming. Andrew D. (talk) 20:10, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - We make Sydney hostage crisis totally news against our will. Doomsday announcements should never be in the Main Page, although corporate-owned media will spin this announcement as "such" without a second thought. Perhaps more aggressive opposition should prompt a re-closure on this nomination. --George Ho (talk) 20:21, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently you haven't read the article. The "clock" is maintained by the board of the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists including 18 Nobelists, and whose "contributors have included: Morton Grodzins, Hans Bethe, Anatoli Blagonravov, Max Born, Harrison Brown, Stuart Chase, Brock Chisholm, E.U. Condon, Albert Einstein, E.K. Fedorov, Bernard T. Feld, James Franck, Ralph E. Lapp, Richard S. Leghorn, J. Robert Oppenheimer, Lord Boyd Orr, Michael Polanyi, Louis Ridenour, Bertrand Russell, Nikolay Semyonov, Leó Szilárd, Edward Teller, A.V. Topchiev, Harold C. Urey, Paul Weiss, [and] James L. Tuck, among others." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs)
Note that they're mostly scientists, while the clock is a geopolitical indicator. They are less qualified than most international relations experts. Moving the clock is entirely arbitrary guesswork. Mamyles (talk) 21:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Significant achievement in breaking a 44 year old record held by the legendary Taiho who was regarded as the greatest sumo wrestler of the postwar period. Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - We regularly post sumo on ITN (including yokozuna promotions), so this is right in our wheelhouse - and it's a welcome change from the normal barrage of football and cricket.--WaltCip (talk) 16:34, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
An explosion near a civilian trolleybus in the city of Donetsk kills at least thirteen people. Separatists and pro-government forces blame each other for the incident. (BBC)
Edgewater Police Chief William Skidmore says that workers doing plumbing work accidentally started the January 21 fire in The Avalon at Edgewater apartments in Edgewater, New Jersey that caused the destruction of 240 units and displaced 1,000 residents. (AP)
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Was the Democratic Party Whip in the Senate for 8 years and governor of Kentucky from 1971 to 1974. After 1974 he was in the Senate for four terms. Article is a FA so no quality issues. Everymorningtalk00:42, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose State-level leadership and/or federal congressperson is not really the type of importance in the field we're looking for for RD without any other notable milestones in their career. --MASEM (t) 00:51, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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[Posted] Dissolution of current Yemini cabinet[edit]
Nominator's comments: I don't know which is huge, the dissolution of Yemini government or the succession of Saudi Arabian king. The future of Yemen is grim at best. George Ho (talk) 00:07, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Technical support, the blurb would ideally include the link to the unrest (since it's a bumping up of the current blurb). --Tone00:11, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Blurb only. Effectively the death of a serving head of state, and I don't think his advanced age and ill health really detract from this --Somchai Sun (talk) 23:42, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Abdullah's article is ready, Salman's is just in progress (its being transitioned to a new name to reflect the change of power). Probably w/in a few minutes it might be ready. --MASEM (t) 23:50, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on blurb - Presumably, Salman was named successor a long time ago. Should it not read "... and is succeeded by his brother, Salman"? Resolute23:59, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I've taken the liberty of amending the blurb in this way. 00:04, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Posting. Salman's article is not really expanded (lots of editing going on so it's hard to say) so I will just bold Abdullah's name for now. When the updates are there, we can also add the picture. --Tone00:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't even think this one warrants discussion. King Abdullah was the leader of a G20 member state and a major economic power in the Middle East. Kurtis(talk)05:11, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of course support, but it would be even better if the article on blogger Raif Badawi and the largely successful ai-campaign against human rights violations in Saudi-Arabia found a place there, too. The articles on Abdullah and his successor currently are widely uncritical. --PanchoS (talk) 06:24, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former UK Home Secretary (one of the four Great Offices of State) during his tenure he was a very prominent figure in the miner's strike. Also a former vice president of the European Commission. I'm not certain whether he rises to RD level or not, but as we're not overflowing with nominations at the moment I think it's worth discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 15:50, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - not one of the greatest of his time. Embroiled in the Westland affair and is alleged to be involved in the cover up of historic sex offences by politicians in the 1980s. Mjroots (talk) 19:11, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. He sort of faded out of the cabinet halfway through the Thatcher era, but add on a decade as a European Commissioner and maybe we're just about across the line. The article has some possibly contentious stuff about organised paedophilia, though, and may need some eyes before posting. Formerip (talk) 19:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I am not sure if it's in the ITN/RD policy, but we used to count importance in two different areas (British cabinet secretary, EC VP) as a plus in nominations. μηδείς (talk) 22:29, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A Palestinian man from the West Bank, Hamza Muhammad Hassan Matrouk, illegally crosses into Israel for the express purpose to stab people attacking over a dozen Israelis on a bus in central Tel Aviv. Security forces capture the assailant as he continued to indiscriminately stab people in the street. (The New York Times)
The government-installed pollution gauges that were set up along roadside stations to monitor Hong Kong reach the maximum level of their ranges. (Bloomberg)
Italian police seize 5,361 ancient artifacts worth $64 million from a Swiss-Italian trafficking ring. The discoveries come after various raids on warehouses against Italian art dealer Gianfranco Becchina, who owns an art gallery in Switzerland. (AFP via ABC.Net.AU)
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Nominator's comments: Along with the personal reason that this device blew my mind, I have no seen any article on it where it did not blow the minds of everyone who has used it. This device, or other like it, may very well change how we interact with computers. This appears to be a large step forward in augmented reality technology. Zell Faze (talk) 09:18, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In my nomination I mentioned that the device has, as far as I can tell, blown the minds of everyone who has used it so far within the press. I think the following quote from The Register illustrates this nicely: "Reporting on technology will make anyone a bit grizzled and cynical over time, but occasionally something comes along that just blows you away. HoloLens is the fourth such creation to make this hack say 'Holy f**k!' (in a good way) in the last two decades."Zell Faze (talk) 09:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per 128.214.53.18. The technology might or might not become significant which is why product launches are (almost?) never featured at ITN. If this were the launch of something that would definitely have a massive impact on every day life for millions of people I might consider it, but this is nowhere near that level. Thryduulf (talk) 12:28, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Simple product annoucement. We didn't post the announcement of the development of Google Glass either, and that didn't take off as it was thought it would at the time. 331dot (talk) 12:55, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As much as I would love to see this posted, 331dot makes a compelling argument comparing this to Google Glass which has not taken off. Still, I'm tempted to !vote support per WP:IAR. This really has the potential of being huge. AQFK (talk) 13:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The Google glass analogy is apt. It's pretty cool, I want my hands on one, but this is not going to massively change computing until it's dirty cheap and not just seen as a toy. --MASEM (t) 16:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] Ukrainian forces withdraw from Donetsk airport[edit]
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Nominator's comments: We've not posted anything on the whole Ukrainian situation for a while, and this defeat is a major blow to Ukrainian forces, who had been holding out at the airport for months. It had become the main battleground of the war in Donbass. Modify the blurb as appropriate. I wouldn't be opposed to a posting. RGloucester — ☎18:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support commenting on the reescalation in Donetsk, in one form or another. As an alternative, maybe we could move Ukraine back to Ongoing? It Is Me Heret / c18:08, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think "ongoing" is appropriate. The conflict happens in bursts, so-to-speak. I only suggested this battle's conclusion for a blurb because of how much of a major blow it is to Ukrainian forces, symbolically and strategically. RGloucester — ☎18:18, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This is a completely misleading statement. According to news reports, such as BBC report quoted above, Ukrainian forces did not withdraw from the airport, but only from the main terminal of the airport. Obviously, the withdrawal from only one terminal does not make big news. My very best wishes (talk) 19:39, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The main terminal building was the last significant building they had been holding on to. They still hold the village of Pisky, on the outskirts of the airport, and a scattered few people remain in outbuildings. However, the sources say what they say. For example, the International Business Times says "Ukraine Army Retreats From Destroyed Donetsk Airport", the Kyiv Post article says "Kremlin-backed insurgents have taken over Donetsk Airport", The Guardian article says "Ukraine forces admit loss of Donetsk airport to rebels". I'll modify the blurb for you, though, to mention the terminal building. The BBC article says "The loss of the main terminal is a major blow to pro-Kiev forces and will send political shockwaves back to the capital". It definitely is "big news". RGloucester — ☎20:40, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't factually incorrect. New sources say that Ukrainian forces withdrew. I provided them below. These include The Daily Telegraph, Yahoo News, and The New York Times. RGloucester — ☎19:15, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is no difference between practical and symbolic importance. They have the same effect. Censor.net simply is not reliable for these events, as we've known since the start of the conflict. There is an information war going on, and both sides engage in propagandising. If you want to use Censor.net, we'd also have to use RT and the like. We stick to RS sources with distance, such as The New York Times. This article says "Chaotic Retreat Follows Ukrainians’ Withdrawal From Donetsk Airport". RGloucester — ☎17:38, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This New York Times article (your link) openly uses Censor.net and Butusov (you criticize) as a source. But my point is different: this NYT article is probably already outdated; there is an ungoing military warfare in and around the airport with something being constantly taken and retaken by sides. My very best wishes (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what RS say, and I'm sorry if you think that. If the Times uses something from such a source, that means they've taken the time to check it, and verify it. That's why they are called an "RS", because they have a reputation for fact-checking. As a secondary source, it is their job to so. However, the Times has not printed anything saying that the battle is still ongoing, or that the separatists have suffered heavy losses. In fact, no RS are printing such a statement. If no RS corroborate a Censor.net statement, we can assume it is unreliable. RGloucester — ☎19:00, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I would support this if to replace wording "fighting with separatist insurgents" by fighting with Russian Army and separatist insurgents, because that is what actually happening. My very best wishes (talk) 01:26, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A step in an ongoing conflict, but not one that is particularly decisive in itself one way or another, especially because the control of the building is really more symbolic than strategic and apparently Ukrainian forces "remained in possession of the airport’s control tower and runway" according to the NY Times article.--Yaksar(let's chat)20:55, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The control tower has been destroyed for weeks, so it is hard to remain "in control" of it. I suppose they are referring to the ruins. I wonder how one retains control of a runway, which is a vast open space. Regardless, The New York Times does not say that. It says that a Ukrainian NSDC spokesman said it. It is clear that this is important. According to the BBC, it is a "major blow", according to the The Guardian, the terminal building was a "hugely symbolic military prize". Symbolic gains are just as important as material gains. RGloucester — ☎21:14, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose ongoing – Nothing of any real importance is ongoing. The only thing of any current significance was the airport battle. Otherwise, it has been mostly calm. RGloucester — ☎21:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Umm... I've never been in either Russia or Ukraine before. Have you? The news media can makes us imply that the War is calm. Actually, many international reporters are too afraid to risk their own lives reporting this War. Same for Syrian Civil War and the 2nd Libyan Civil War, whose main combatants declared ceasefire. --George Ho (talk) 21:32, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've been to Ukraine, but not Russia. Regardless, our coverage is based on what RS report, along with our own encyclopaedic principles. Fighting in Donetsk has been heavy, but everything else has been relatively normal. There are reports now of significant fighting in northern Luhansk Oblast, but that's a sparsely populated region. Nothing has really changed, yet, other than that Ukraine's "cyborgs" have been essentially eliminated after holding on for months. RGloucester — ☎22:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's the first territorial change since the Minsk agreement standstill, and the battle has been in the news much and for long. Prefer blurb to ongoing sticky. Would skip "the main terminal building of " in the blurb, or at least say last building - current blurb sounds like govt might still control a significant part of the airport. Narayanese (talk) 21:33, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
New source – For anyone that wants more sources, here is a new article with the headline "Ukraine cedes airport on one of bloodiest days of war". It says "Ukrainian forces on Thursday ceded a long-disputed airport to Russian-backed rebels as an upsurge in clashes killed nearly 50 people and punctured Europe's latest push for peace in the nine-month war". I think the significance of this event is clear, despite a certain fellow's claim of a "minor issue". In another article, The Daily Telegraph says that the Ukrainian withdrawal from the airport was a "devastating victory over Ukrainian forces". RGloucester — ☎04:30, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose yet another twist in this rather long story. We should probably wait for some diplomatic breakthrough before posting about this again, instead of having every tactical detail.128.214.53.18 (talk) 08:12, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That implies that there is going to be a "diplomatic breakthrough". There is no sign of one occurring. Fighting has ramped up across the combat zone, following the withdrawal. We've not had "every tactical detail". In fact, we've not posting any blurbs about this August, as far as I'm aware. RGloucester — ☎14:25, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Ongoing It's curious why this isn't stickied. A member of G* ostracized for invading foreign countries seems worthy of ongoing, as it is indeed, ongoing. μηδείς (talk) 00:07, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] Resignation of PEGIDA leader, Lutz Bachmann[edit]
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Oppose Not convinced this is really of sufficient significance. PEGIDA, despite the attention it has got, does not enjoy the support of most Germans and has not achieved much in terms of effecting its political aims. Neljack (talk) 02:12, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support For this being newsworthy it is absolutely irrelevant whether Pegida does enjoy the support of most Germans or by a large minority. PEGIDA has definitely become newsworthy, it comes up in the evening news every other day, and Bachmann's Hitler selfie was on title pages worldwide. Dozens of news articles focus on Bachmann himself. We should however direct people to our article PEGIDA, which has become quite good, rather than the new one on Lutz Bachmann which we have no photo of. For objectivity, we should also mention the investigations by state prosecutors. I'd therefore propose as an alternative blurb: PEGIDA founder Lutz Bachmann resigns as leader of the German anti-Islamic movement following state investigations for incitement to popular hatred --PanchoS (talk) 03:20, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that is generally regarded as a disqualifying COI here. Updaters frequently nominate articles or comment in support of a nomination. And editors who think a nomination is worthy of support often also help to update the article. It would be undesirable to discourage people from working on the article by treating it as a COI precluding them from voting on a nomination. Neljack (talk) 10:42, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose come on now, we don't normally post even when leaders from actual proper political parties resign, why then would we care about this facebook group? SeraV (talk) 12:45, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't take it as an offense, but I think that your comment particularly highlights an existing general bias against less-institutionalized organizations: it shouldn't matter if something is a company on shares, a legal political party or a ad-hoc association if they otherwise receive the same notability. Neither should it matter whether an organization has a professional homepage (requiring a lot of money or specific skills Bachmann doesn't seem to have even though he's in the low-scale PR business) or a simple blog or a facebook page. But I won't contradict to the other aspect of your argument that there are certainly more important personalities than Bachmann which we didn't have in the news. So the outcome is fine for me, I just wanted to raise my observation on this. --PanchoS (talk) 14:22, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Support I'd like to see the article expanded a bit more, but this does seem like an important event, and in a part of the world where we don't usually get such great news coverage (hence systematic bias). – Muboshgu (talk) 18:37, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support as this is a significant development, even if we don't hear about this country often. I would prefer this be an Ongoing event, but it could be a blurb instead. Mamyles (talk) 19:14, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The process is that nominations will be discussed until an administrator believes that consensus has been reached and the content is ready. Only admins can modify the main page. Though, if you believe that this is ready, you can add [Ready] in front of the nomination header. Mamyles (talk) 16:08, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support had 42 Russians been killed in protests when Putin changed the law to allow him to rule for life, we'd have posted it lickety split. μηδείς (talk) 19:47, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose article quality, it's junk, barely English, references are appalling, please tidy it up, it's certainly not something we want to "showcase" on our mainpage. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
[ready] Support- There is no reason that after 48 hours an event which took the lives of 42 people should still not even been mentioned (and I agree that had this been in Russia [ie. white people] it probably would have been). Instead we have kept a week-old story about the Swiss Bank's decision on the new feed. Is that really more newsworthy than popular protests against a corrupt and authoritarian regime which have cost the lives of dozens of people? Can an admin please declare consensus and move this along? The only person to oppose this has called the references (which are overwhelmingly AFP, Bloomberg, Reuters and BBC) "appalling" which strikes of absurdity and stonewalling. I think a vote of 5-1 over 2 days should be deemed consensus for a news item.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 07:54, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Monopoly, you miss the point. The article has a maintenance tag, two inline requests for quotations, ill-formatted references etc. I didn't ever mention that the quality of the sources were in doubt. I think you claiming that I'm being absurd and stonewalling this nomination is a bit too much. I'm just trying to uphold some levels of quality control around here while all the others just knee-jerk support without really giving a damn about what shape the article is in. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:23, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I concur with Monopoly. I question The Rambling Man's rationale here. I don't see how "junk" the whole nomination or the blurb is. Three people killed may be too little, but there have been protests, successful or not. Congo and Zaire became "Democratic Republic of Congo" and "Republic of Congo", but Congo suffers from authoritarian regimes already. Time for at least one news about any African country besides Ebola. George Ho (talk) 08:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you mis-read, I said the article was junk, it may have been improved since I last looked. Let's hope so because the more junk we push to the main page, the less likely our readers are to read it. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:11, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If shown in Main Page, more readers will become aware of this page and will fix the article. That's how things are done to articles, right? --George Ho (talk) 08:17, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and equally likely is that 99.9% of those reading the article aren't editors and will take one look and think, "what a load of junk they link to from the main page". The Rambling Man (talk) 08:19, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not this 99% vs. 1% philosophy. Have you gotten this from Occupy Wall Street or Tea Party demonstrations? Also, I am sure that the most of "99%" you mentioned are capable of editing unless you want to discredit IPs as useless. --George Ho (talk) 08:24, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It seems you don't understand the readership of Wikipedia at all. But just address the article quality issues and we'll have full agreement that it's fit for the main page. Alternatively keep supporting articles which are of insufficient quality and slowly but surely degrade the quality of the main page. P.S. The main page is viewed over 300 million times a month. On the flip-side we have around 30,000 editors who make five or more edits a month. So no, not 99% vs 1% at all. Much worse. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:35, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't that ten million viewing times per day? Umm... the editors stats are misleading. When you said "five or more per month", that seems short. We don't know how many edit five or more per day. --George Ho (talk) 08:43, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It more than adequately demonstrates the point. Most of our readers do not edit Wikipedia. So if you really care about the article, fix up the issues, improve the method of citation and we're good to go. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:48, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man, I respect that you're interested in improving the quality of the article but your argument here doesn't seem to have any basis in rules regarding what gets posted in the news feed. I have not found any information stating that non-FA,GA, [of good quality], etc. articles should be excluded from the main page. If it's the news then it's the news. Whether Wikiepdians have developed a great/good quality article or not is not part of the criteria for what news exists in the world. That said I think there is clearly consensus here.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 16:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Marked Ready I have copyedited the tagged section, which needed a handful of commas and re-phrasing. I've removed comment on any British reaction, since no news I could find in the last week mentions any, perhaps there will be comments in the French press or Chinese. In any case, the nomination is well supported, and the article's in good shape. μηδείς (talk) 18:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I fixed most of the issues that I flagged up several days ago. A pity some of the supporters couldn't be bothered to address them. Or perhaps they just didn't see them or realise what constitutes a "quality article" any longer. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:59, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we all appreciate the suggestion (we are always looking for new voices here), but there is a consensus this won't be posted until the embargo is lifted. -- Calidum05:17, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: This event should have serious effects on the international relations between the United States and Cuba. This could be the beginning of more positive interactions between the US and Cuba. – TCMemoire20:37, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I would prefer to wait until something happens diplomatically regarding the embargo, rather than announce a discussion. (Furthermore, it's Congress who would need to lift the embargo, and having mostly executive branch officials talk is unlikely to achieve results soon.) Mamyles (talk) 20:45, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wait If the embargo is lifted as a result of this meeting, that would be an easy support for ITN posting. But planning to meeting is a bit too early. --MASEM (t) 20:50, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The announcement of discussions is not significant. Congress voting to remove the embargo would be noteworthy, but given the GOP led current Congress that seems unlikely. 331dot (talk) 22:49, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The original announcement was ITM worthy, but this is just some news about a meeting about something we already know about. Maybe if the meeting is concluded with substantive progress, that could be featured. Gamaliel (talk) 23:17, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Houthi rebels take over the residence of the President amidst calls by the rebel leader for negotiations to adjust the country's power structure. (The Washington Post)
A fire in a bowling alley causes a roof collapse in Taoyuan City, Taiwan killing six firefighters. (AP)
An overpass of I-75 in Cincinnati, Ohio collapses while undergoing demolition, killing one worker and injuring a trucker whose vehicle was struck by debris. (Cincinnati.com)
Kurdish fighters battling Islamic State militants in the town of Kobanî, Syria on the Syria-Turkey border capture the strategic Mishtenur hill killing eleven fighters. (BBC)
London's Southwark Crown Court hears evidence in the first trial on female genital mutilation in the United Kingdom, where this practice is illegal. (BBC)(Sky News)
A six-month-old boy dies in hospital of his wounds, becoming the seventh member of an Armenian family dead after a killing spree by a Russian soldier. (Fox News)
Comment. The Guardian is reporting that the rebels are in control of the capital, Sanaa. It's an obviously postable story, but think we should wait for just a little of the dust to settle before deciding what blurb to use. Formerip (talk) 20:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support with additional confirmation, would like to see more affirmation that this is true and the coup has bee completed. The article update is there but again, would like a bit more on affirmation. --MASEM (t) 20:52, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment according to the article, this action has been happening since August last year. Is this specific event more newsworthy than all the other actions? Is this more inclined to an "Ongoing" listing? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:02, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional oppose A coup is taking political power, rather than just taking one building and making the occupants flee. The president was (supposedly) allowed to leave. Unless there is an actual overthrow of power, where the president loses political control of the bureaucracy, this news is just one more battle loss for Yemen. This is still developing, and the condition of the president is yet definitive. Mamyles (talk) 22:17, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That still seems like a pretty big deal. If someone took over the White House or Downing Street, I'm pretty certain it would be a no-brainer to post. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.95.216.224 (talk) 23:04, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the IP user; the seizure of any presidential residence is notable on its own, regardless of the success of a coup attempt. 331dot (talk) 23:06, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To put this in context, the city has effectively been an active war zone for a year. That rebels took control of a government building is not surprising, and has only symbolic significance beyond that Yemen lost another battle. What is significant is that the rebels let the president go free, but I guess they had to or the country would have lost all of its funding from western governments. Mamyles (talk) 15:45, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support — This is a major development in the Houthi rebellion, and will surely serve as a watershed for future developments in Yemen. Kurtis(talk)04:17, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You work with what you have, 331. Today's news confirms the resignation of the prior government--that's a lot better justification for this nomination than the occupation of one building. μηδείς (talk) 19:43, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking about posting this, but the target article doesn't seem to have enough meat, and events are still unfolding rapidly. the latest is that there's been some sort of deal and the rebels are withdrawing. I think we need to wait for the dust to settle. We are not the breaking news. JehochmanTalk22:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that if they have pulled back or otherwise left the residence that we might want to rethink posting(as well as the quality issues). 331dot (talk) 23:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The Yemeni government has reportedly now offered the rebels its resignation, so we should be standing by to possibly replace the blurb. Formerip (talk) 17:28, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. I think that, as a blurb story, this depends on whether there are good indications that someone else was involved in his death. It is too soon to say that. Also don't think we should name Kirchner in the blurb - she's not the only person who may have had a motive to off him. Formerip (talk) 20:47, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Nisman predicted that he would be murdered for investigating the case. I have been getting denial of service error attempting to read the story earlier today, it seems to have drawn quite some interest. μηδείς (talk) 20:51, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This death is in the news because of the timing of the events. Nisman accuses Cristina Kirchner and others, he is called to the Congress to expand his report... and he's found dead, the very day he had to be at the Congress. It's hard to think that it's just a big coincidence. Cambalachero (talk) 02:35, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the BBC reports that the prosecutor is waiting for the results of further tests "in order to rule out any other hypothesis". It's good that she's clear about what the purpose of the tests is... Formerip (talk) 22:31, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wait Until foul play is identified as the cause of death, this reads like a conspiracy theory, and we definitely should wait until something more affirmed is given. --MASEM (t) 03:02, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
NYT: Puzzling Death of a Prosecutor Grips ArgentinaDaily Beast: Did Iran Murder Argentina’s Crusading Prosecutor Alberto Nisman? No suicide note, no confirmation of a headwound, no one heard the shot, the ten federal police guards assigned to guard his door were called away. This is leading news worldwide. The choice of wording on the blurb is a minor matter, make it how ever neutral possible, but the story should be posted. μηδείς (talk) 04:34, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's still reads like a conspiracy theory; if we treated this like a recent death, the person's "importance" is rather low (not a leader in any field) and while the death is interesting, not sufficient to post. Us posting this this early would be completely improper. --MASEM (t) 05:08, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it reads like a conspiracy theory, but the circumstances are very suspicious--no note, no indication of he might have killed himself, his guard disappear, he was about to give a summary report on a 20-investigation. None of that matters for our blurb. Saying "Argentine federal prosecutor found dead night before releasing 20 year report on attacks that killed 85" is not anything anyone denies. All we need to do is realize this is a huge story even if it was suicide, and it is getting immense worldwide attention. μηδείς (talk) 05:28, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it does not meter whether it was suicide or how exactly he died. It is already an international scandal like Alexander Litvinenko. Remember he was investigated murder of 85 people with international links. --Jenda H. (talk) 08:40, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mentioning the imminent release of the report in connection to the death/suicide/whatever it turns out to be is implicitly creating original research, or repeating wild speculation from the press. It's a newspaper-worthy eyecatching/reader-drawing headline, but it is far from encyclopedic. --MASEM (t) 05:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it is not for Wikipedia to say that this is suspicious or to act as a tabloid-headline generator/chaser. (There's an old rule of thumb which says that when headlines have question marks in them, such as "Did Iran Murder Argentina’s Crusading Prosecutor Alberto Nisman?", the answer to the question is "no", otherwise it wouldn't be phrased as a question.) He wouldn't fit the bill for RD and, absent a murder, his death is not sufficiently noteworthy to warrant a blurb. BencherliteTalk09:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't usually vote here or know much about this particular story, but this reads like media speculation. I wouldn't support posting unless there's some official verification that the above parties were involved in his death. Otherwise this is a tabloid non-story. Condolences on his death. Fuebaey (talk) 00:02, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I agree that this shouldn't be posted without something further happening, like the police treating it as murder or significant public protests. But, to those editors who seem to think you need to be a tabloid hack or David Icke to think the death of someone who had predicted their own murder hours before they were due to outline a criminal case against the president might be suspicious: is anyone interested in buying a CD signed by Elvis Presley? Formerip (talk) 00:27, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Altblurb What about: Argentine prosecutor Alberto Nisman was fond shot dead in his apartment a shortly before his testimony on the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center.? No speculation in blurb. By the way. Argentine president say that she dosen't believe it was suicide. Also there is any gunshot residue on Mr Nisman's hands, according to police.BBC --Jenda H. (talk) 14:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It's a major story getting widespread international coverage (at least it's staying near the top of my google news results, and I'm certainly not from Argentina).--Yaksar(let's chat)20:57, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Kirchner the Argentine president herself has called this a murder: "Argentine President Cristina Kirchner said Thursday she believes that a prosecutor who died under suspicious circumstances was murdered in a plot to implicate her government in a cover-up of a 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center." Whatever the facts, this story and the reaction to it is notable enough for posting. μηδείς (talk) 19:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
She has no evidence to support it was a murder (per my above link), she's making a supposition. We can't act like it is a murder because of that. --MASEM (t) 19:05, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Chinese police shoot dead two ethnic Uighurs in Pingxiang, Guangxi while they attempt to cross into Vietnam after members of their group resisted arrest with knives. The public security ministry accuses a separatist group of orchestrating hundreds of cases of human smuggling. (The New York Times)
Lennar Urban cancels their demolition plans to implode Candlestick Park due to concerns over public health issues from the concrete dust and pollution. (KTVU)
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Oppose While impressive, I don't think that we should be posting technical records like this. If we did, there would be a new sports record here every day. Mamyles (talk) 17:30, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I forgot you were trying to make a point and failed, massively. Robertson is Australian. Do try harder, or at least do some research before making yourself look so .... unprepared. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come on he didn't know you were going to argue semantics. And if I were a Brit I would be much more interested in this despite not being Australian, Brits have about as much population as Aussies, Kiwis, Canadians and Irish combined so it's slightly lazy shorthand nothing to berate him about and he might've even been thinking the people supporting this are disproportionately British because of the time zone. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I don't yet know enough about this know if this is significant, but ITN is very skeptical of sports records, as Muboshgu showed. 331dot (talk) 18:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ironically, all Muboshgu "showed" was that he didn't do any research and selectively ignored the fact that one of his two "examples" was still open with support. Brilliant work, the pair of you! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:54, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The nomination clearly takes for granted that everyone knows cricket. That iis not the case. Clearly snooker and cricket are more important than gridiron football, so your inconsistencies are okay. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:32, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed they are, and they span the globe rather than the parochial yet charming grid iron! There's no inconsistency, yet you clearly failed when you made your previous statement, but that's okay. Better luck next time. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OMG, I think cricket is charming, too! Despite knowing alot about it by American standards. It's just kind of comical and quaint, I wonder how you take it seriously, with batsmen running back and forth for 2 instead of circumnavigating for 1 which makes them look stupid and really athletic fast bowlers hurling the ball like an idiot and making funny faces like they're having a bowel movement. I wouldn't mind to hear the why gridiron is bollocks paragraph but remember the US takes it as seriously as cricket. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The funny face is of course because you have to run like 25 miles per hour before you even hurl the ball, which would be awesome if you could straighten your elbow (but the batsmen might need gridiron-like padding, lol). It would really help with the way too easy scoring and unnatural motion, though. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:32, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't get posted because it doesn't have much of any global importance and it doesn't get consistent support. But what are you complaining about none of the other sports get any support here either, expect for rock climbing I guess, so it's all fine isn't it? SeraV (talk) 23:04, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes yes, you keep telling yourself that. Oddly that is only ever argument when it comes to american stuff in these pages, rest can be safely ignored because they aren't important or interesting enough for americans, as you can see right here on this nomination. SeraV (talk) 23:12, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not telling myself or you anything; it's on this page. I support many nominations from other countries than mine. Please don't generalize. 331dot (talk) 23:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well you make it so very easy with your constant whining about anti-americanism in here. It's not like most of the stuff we post in here comes from the US or anything. SeraV (talk) 23:22, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not "whining" so I'm not sure why you felt the need to be negative. I don't want there to be anti-Americanism or pro-Americanism. The answer to systemic bias is not to turn it around. 331dot (talk) 23:26, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Fine but the default state here is pro-american bias, and it is not really helpfull that if some american nomination fails people start instantly screaming about anti-americanism here. It is just annoying frankly and current reality and what you do. SeraV (talk) 23:32, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
When I see someone here try to explain why their rationale for posting cricket items doesn't apply to college football despite similarities between the two, and is totally unwilling to see the other side(and denigrates it) I'm not sure what else I am supposed to think. 331dot (talk) 23:37, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well now you just aren't assuming good faith and starting to generalize, hardly everyone denigrated other side. How do you explain total lack of supports here if these nominations are so similar in your mind? SeraV (talk) 23:49, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the overall subject matter, not these specific issues, which are different (championship game vs. record in the sport). I think you would agree that this discussion should not be tied up between the two of us in this side discussion; if you wish to continue, please use my talk page. 331dot (talk) 00:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support easily as significant as a couple of blokes taking two weeks to climb a 1,000 metre tall rock, falling off numerous times, and being supported by a cast of thousands. This smashes the record. Alt blurb added for those who didn't even get which sport was being discussed. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:57, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If it was so damn easy it would've been done before, possibly from the same guy who failed 4 times before. It is so hard that just passing every foot of rock without hammering something in and holding onto it is like a world record. All that stuff only adds to the achievement not detracts from it. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:41, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. More of a factoid, ideal for DYK as opposed to In The News. We also did not post Lionel Messi's world record for most goals in a calendar year; therefore, per precedence, this cannot be posted. -- Calidum20:20, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"per precedence, this cannot be posted" is pure nonsense. While precedent can suggest something is more or less likely to be posted, it does not control and cannot prevent (or mandate) something being posted if there is consensus based on the merits of each item. In this case, I don't think a very different type of record in a very different sport is even relevant precedent. Thryduulf (talk) 20:38, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, to attempt to compare a season-long scoring record in a specific league with a fundamental cricketing world record just demonstrates the lack of understanding some individuals have here. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps in a similar fashion to how some have a fundamental misunderstanding of college American football...? *Cough* not pointing any figures mind you.--Somchai Sun (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt it. We all fundamentally understand that there's a thing called "college football" but most, if not all people outside the US couldn't give a monkeys about it. It's fine if it feeds professional sport institutions with good players etc, but otherwise it's just notable for the popularity, like wrestling or watching disasters take place. What we have here is in no way comparable to anything related to college football. This is cricket, which is of interest to English, Australian, South African, Australian, Indian, Sri Lankan, Pakistani people.... etc etc in other words well over a billion or so people know about this sport and some of them care about it. We'll never ever agree, but cricket is far more universal than American football will ever be. The quicker you guys understand that (and I don't expect you to ever understand cricket, far too many laws) the better. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand cricket. But when I first read about it in 2006 I used it for amusement to see how many percent of cricket articles I could read in short random passages while still having zero clue what they're talking about. And for the funny or 19th century sounding names. I also did this for rugby, bridge (card game) and programming articles. I read them in equal quantities so that I could entertain myself with the contest of which would be like reading a foreign language last. Bridge won cause the 4 main articles weren't read to make the game sporting. I still don't get what law prevents the batsman from being continually in danger from a fielder breaking his wicket with the ball/ball arm even though he made his ground. (though I haven't read them all). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:57, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. It's a record for cricket, it's a record for international cricket.... Wow, worst oppose I've seen ever. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about? I don't need to "google it". It's a world record, it's a cricket record, it's a one day international record, you probably need to re-read what you wrote and then apologise. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:38, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From the BBC article linked on this very page: "Chris Gayle's 100 from 30 balls in the Indian Premier League in April 2013 is the fastest century in cricket history." Worst reply to an oppose ever. -- Calidum21:41, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oops Calidum and FormerIP! Best to not comment if you're bot clear what you're commenting on! To help, the IPL isn't an international tournament, even though it contains international players. If you need any further info, don't hesitate to ask! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:22, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still not clear on whether a record in IPL counts as a cricket record or not. Can help with that, RM?
I guess the thing about international vs domestic records is one of those things where it's up to me to think about whether or not I want to take it into account and re-assess my vote. That's the sort of thing I will often do when I'm feeling well-disposed towards another editor. Formerip (talk) 23:01, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm a big cricket fan, but I don't think this is really one of the most important records. I'd say the highest ODI score by a batsman, which we (correctly, in my view) declined to post when it was broken in November,[12] is more significant. And test cricket remains the most prestigious form of the game. Neljack (talk) 21:47, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose but not because it's a stub (which can always be improved) but because it's not that significant in the scheme of things happening over in Nigeria. Sadly. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:58, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: I think most any gathering of 6 million people, being covered in the news, should at least be discussed. Vatican says it is largest papal gathering in history. Article is not in too bad shape, I think. Some updating, not sure if it's enough. 331dot (talk) 15:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They can't have all seen the Pope with their eyes at one time, could they? That would be ~10% of the population and might be a homo sapiens crowd size record (for any reason). Someone once calculated that if the species (~1,000 times this gathering) teleported to south New England unprepared a large percentage of the crowd would die. (they would starve before reaching food or water) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:55, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So, if you're going to see the Pope, take a packed lunch, and if you're going to see Jesus, check that at least someone is taking a packed lunch. Formerip (talk) 00:31, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. It's clear just from the pictures that an enormous number of people attended this mass. However, estimates given immediately after an event of this kind are always subject to considerable unreliability, so I don't think we can say that there were six million people there, only that this has been reported. Formerip (talk) 17:10, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment if this can be verified to have been the largest crowd ever, that might stand on its own. But I would be leery of posting large gatherings. For example, Francis is set to visit Philadelphia in September, with an expected attendance of 2 million. This is already in the news, due to the lack of rentals available. (People are renting out their own residences as far away as the Jersey shore, 90 minutes away, for the event.) Will we be nominating every large crowd Francis gathers? μηδείς (talk) 17:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think every large papal crowd should be nominated, but this one is being called the largest ever, and it doesn't seem likely it will be repeated soon. 331dot (talk) 18:26, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If we give each person 1.5 square feet of space which is just stuffed (I barely cram into 12 x 16, 17 inches of floor with my arms in front) then that's 9 million square feet of people, or a circle of people 3,385 feet across. Does it look like the crowd is .6 miles wide? (I haven't seen pictures). I would've done a circle cause the bread and Francis's head would be invisible if their color resembles the background — even to world record eyesight. 20/20 vision would see 15 centimeter black bread over white clerical shirts as a point. That is the nosebleed view to end all nosebleed views. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It says it's for a single event and a lot of those 6+ million ones don't give the day. Did all of them really beat the papal crowd at any moment or did one or more of them you know go on for days or weeks like the Olympics, never beating the crowd at any one moment? That would seem to be more like the record for movement of people through a place inside a month, and about comparable to what the metro area with the busiest airport system does all the time in 2 months, not even counting road and rail travelers. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose based on the analysis above (that it is practically impossible from the visual evidence to be 6M simultaneous); I believe that this Pope will make several historic firsts in relationship to the Church and the world at large but setting attendee records doesn't seem like ground breaking. --MASEM (t) 06:59, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So you know the dark crater about a 20/20 stroke width under the ears of the rabbit shape on the Moon? That's about as easy to find as the Pope's head in a Mass of 6 million. Bring binoculars if you want to see the Pope's head.Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:51, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest the event was not seen a "trivial" to the 6+ million people who attended. Nor to all the editors of all the media outlets across the world who reported it. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:23, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Gunmen abduct the chief of staff to Yemen's president in the center of the capital, Sana'a. It is uncertain if Shiite Houthi rebels or al-Qaeda militants kidnapped Ahmed Awad bin Mubarak. (AP)
Following the January 16 Chad authorities decision to send troops to Nigeria and Cameroon to fight Boko Haram militants, the Russian ambassador to the country pledges to supply Cameroon with more modern weapons to combat the Islamist insurgents. (AFP via The Economic Times)
The rescue and recovery efforts at the wreckage of the January 15 capsized tugboat on China's Yangtze River near the city of Jingjiang finds that twenty-one people are dead while three are rescued. (Straits Times)
An entourage plane accompanying the Pope and carrying government officials experiences high winds and blows off the runway minutes after the pontiff's aircraft takes off safely in the Philippines. (The Independent)
Pemberton Township, New Jersey police arrest a woman and charge her with the murder of her newborn baby girl which she set on fire. Officers extinguish the fire, but the child later dies. (AP via MSN)
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I added the 200 cubic meter (over)estimate to give a visually comprehensible idea. That's 5x5x8 meters, or about 08% of the size of an olympic swimming pool in a river over 600 miles long. We don't have any reports that this will effect the park or the environment long term, and the prior spill was apparently cleaned up, as will be this one. μηδείς (talk) 17:02, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: A film icon in the region, who was nicknamed the "Lady of the Arabic Screen". This is major news in Egyptian and Middle Eastern cinema. Hamama was the wife of Michel Chalhoub (who went on to become Omar Sharif after the wedding). She appeared in almost a hundred films, some directed by Youssef Chahine, and often attempted to highlight women's issues in the region, which makes her death important news for Arab feminism as well. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 12:09, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Awards/honors suggest DC2, article is in good shape, also not from an English speaking country so this fights systematic bias. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:09, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it appears that she was notable and won numerous awards. But in our article, every single award is cited to her own website. This isn't good enough. It's also worth noting that not one single award has its own article on Wikipedia, are any of these awards actually notable? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
On the sourcing I agree with you, but the reason the awards don't have articles is just inevitable systemic bias because this is an English encyclopedia. And support. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 19:33, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't be arbitrarily promoting articles to the main page because no-one can be bothered to do proper sourcing. Who's to say those awards are either real or notable? There are some amongst us here who would agree that more work should and can be done in the native language that would help. DO IT! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:48, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I've removed two works that couldn't be adequately sourced (the section's name is "Selected filmography" anyways) and the rest is now referenced with Arabic sources. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 22:17, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, aware it's "selected" but being an encyclopaedia we normally provide objective rationales to which items are "selected". I have no major beef with the article, but we really shouldn't be hand-picking items in the filmography just because no-one can be bothered to source or write articles about them. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:23, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, the film that was eliminated from the list appeared to be non-existent. I've managed, however, to find this source (Saudi newspaper Al Riyadh) for the other TV show that was removed. That said, I didn't restore it yet, because it is still unclear whether the show was actually filmed or not. An editor who included this work to the list in December 2006 added the qualifier "TBA" next to it, but this hasn't changed since then. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Marked Ready the article has bee updated by 7,000 bytes, every paragraph has at least one source, or works are at least linked to their own articles, last two CN tags taken care of. Quite a remarkable subject. μηδείς (talk) 03:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One of the difficulties with the red linked articles is that they aren't necessarily red links, just the pipe is misspelt, which was the case with La Tutf'e al-Shams which looked like a redlink due to the inconsistent capitalization of Al-. I considered hiding the redlinks, but this is not just difficult to do without distorting the chart format, it also hides articles that could use finding or creating. Given the items are at least cited, there's no need to delete the immediately. And the hope is that an RD listing will draw helpful attention. I can say that the Mozambique funeral beer poisoning article immediately increased upon publication and is now about three times as good as it was when it was listed, mostly due to the attention of new users. μηδείς (talk) 17:49, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I actually wanted to convert this chart to one or two paragraphs like I did with the awards section. But in order to do so, I must first have a source that highlights her most notable works, so that it doesn't look like I'm arbitrarily deciding what to keep/remove from the summary. Some time ago, the article was surprisingly a GA, despite all the issues it had. I didn't check the reassessment yet, but I plan on bringing it back to that status very soon, if no one gets there first. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The proper place to discuss that now would be the article itself. The standalone filmography article is useless in comparison as almost totally unsourced, and the existing filmography section could probably just be pasted over it. For a selected woks section simply limited to the blue links, and those that can be found like I found the [[La Tutf'e al-Shams article when searching for the redlink, La Tutf'e Al-Shams Sort of a crowd-sourced decision as to what is notable, which is all imdb and rotten tomatoes really are.
I am of quite limited help myself, because although I can muck it through anything in a Latin script (I've sourced articles in Hungarian and Vietnamese, which I don't speak, but can parse with google translate) I simply don't have any mastery of the alphabet. In any case, I think the outcome of this nomination has for RD has been quite well handled. μηδείς (talk) 01:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing really here to note. No support, the tunnel was closed for a bit, trains were reversed, subsequent services were delayed, just like leaves on the line really. Nothing long-term, not really newsworthy for our global encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:02, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Complete suspension of an international train service, causing a great deal of disruption in the UK and France. There have been fires in the Chunnel before, resulting in long-term closure for repairs (though it doesn't appear to be known at this stage whether that will be the case here). HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:15, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Disruption, but not life-threatening (at least, beyond the fire), and the Chunnel will still be there after the matter. Not really ITN worthy. --MASEM (t) 01:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. On this occasion the fire appears to have caused only one day's direct disruption, and with no apparent deaths or injuries it isn't ITN level. Even without deaths or injuries I'd be tempted to support if there was damage sufficient for multiple months disruption as a result, but fortunately this hasn't happened on this occasion. Thryduulf (talk) 02:23, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. If Europe had ground to halt, I might have supported. But it turns out they can just about manage without us, for a few hours at least. Formerip (talk) 14:40, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose. Even though we don't have set rules for adding sports to ongoing, I would prefer we limit it to only global competition, such as the Olympics. -- Calidum15:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You are asking for an ongoing link. That implies tha each update would be close to being worthy of posting on its own, but we don't want to have 5 separate blurbs at once. Is this African Cup so important that it would have more than one blurb, rather than just the results of the final match? Some sort of explanation along those lines was what I was asking for. μηδείς (talk) 18:21, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In the absence of a "current major sporting events" ticker[1], which Ongoing definitely isn't, I see no justification for this. Competitions like the (soccer) World Cup are far more significant and get far more coverage, but unless something exceptional happens we only post the result of the final. Thryduulf (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
[1] I'm not proposing we should have one, and I don't know if I'd support someone else's proposal for one. If we did have one though, this is the sort of event I'd consider for it. Thryduulf (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose it's a major tournament in African football terms, and will be hugely watched, mainly in that continent. It's seen, at least in Europe, as an inconvenience as so many Premier League players disappear for a month and often come back injured. I would advise that we wait for the final and post that as a main ITN item, and not this ongoing proposal. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:01, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Medeis, which is really the only argument against that is necessary in this discussion. Since we wouldn't post incremental updates to this event, we won't post it to ongoing. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 23:35, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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A hostage crisis at a post office in Colombes, Paris, ends with the attacker releasing the hostages and surrendering himself to the police. (Daily Mail)(CNN)
Chinese officials impose an emergency ban on tourists approaching pandas subsequent to the death of two pandas from a canine distemper virus. (USA Today)
Pittsburgh police arrest Ryan Williams for the October 18, 2014 McKeesport, Pennsylvania arson attack and charge him with arson, burglary, and six counts of criminal homicide. The victims include four children ages 2 through 7. (AP)(WTAE)
The articles you cite are referring to the new island in Tonga, not in Nishinoshima in Japan. I repeat, there is no new island at Nishinoshima. Michitaro (talk) 15:29, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not in the news. It's an old story. By all means update the article, but until you can provide us with evidence that this is in the news now about something that isn't stale, ITN isn't the place for this. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle. The problem is the insufficient update. But the Discovery News article stating the 1km island was created (and erruptions are apparently ongoing) is dated the 17th, not today. μηδείς (talk) 17:39, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The reason the news media are not so interested in this island is that is just (and I mean just) offshore of an existing island. It is not interesting. Abductive (reasoning)17:07, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure how one can say this is not interesting, interest is a subjective matter. I am curious if this has been covered with any scientific papers?
[Closed] Shin Dong-hyuk recants parts of his story[edit]
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Nominator's comments: Dong-hyuk was described by Time magazine in the link above as "one of the most high-profile survivors of North Korea’s political prisons". Also, according to the New York Daily News, he is "The only known North Korean prison camp escapee". Everymorningtalk20:31, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: No this doesn't happen every year. 1998 was one and I'm guessing 2007 cause of the record sea ice and maybe others but this is one of the most important topics of our century. -- Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:29, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The progression of previous all-time hottest years in the current NOAA and NASA time series are 1998, 2005, 2010. The new average is variously 0.02 C (NASA), 0.04 C (NOAA), 0.05 C (JMA), 0.01 C (Berkeley Earth) warmer than the previous warmest year depending on your choice of reporting agency (with two more research groups yet to report 2014). All of the groups have a reported uncertainty of at least +/- 0.05 C (95% confidence), meaning there will always be a bit of ambiguity about whether this is a true record. (That's true of most record years, as the slow evolution of the climate only very rarely sets a new record by more than our uncertainty in such measurements.) So far, there has been no update at either suggested target article. Dragons flight (talk) 22:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The January to November time series for the other two groups suggests that each of these may have 2014 end up being slightly cooler than their previous warmest year (by a few hundredths of a degree C). If they keep to previous patterns, HadCRU will probably release their values middle to end of next week. I can't guess when the CW group will be ready. Dragons flight (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The HadCRU collaboration involves the United Kingdom's leading climate research group (sort of UK's NOAA, at least when it comes to climate). CW refers to smaller independent collaboration. Also, the possibility that they may have a colder year has nothing to do with ENSO. The 11-month average for HadCRU is colder than the corresponding 11-month average of the other groups, including Berkeley, making a miss somewhat likely. CW on the other hand previously estimated a relatively warmer 2010, making it unlikely that they will set a new record even if they finish 2014 at the same temperature as the other groups. But then we are talking about tiny differences of a few hundredths of a degree C, which shouldn't really be considered significant to begin with. Dragons flight (talk) 00:16, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So, what are those numbers if all the non-satellite data is removed? Satellites are the only temperature measuring tool that samples everywhere so since we're comparing this to a year in the satellite record this would improve the authoritativeness I think. Maybe change the blurb to "over an XX% chance of being the warmest" if need be? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of the ones mentioned above, only NASA and CW use satellite data, and then only over regions poorly sampled by other methods. The others groups rely strictly on ground (or sea) level observations. Of the two major satellite groups, UAH and RSS, they are placing 2014 as either the 3rd or 6th warmest year respectively. Neither major satellite group thinks 2014 was the hottest year. The satellite-to-land comparison comes with some big caveats though. Satellite accuracy tends to degrade and drift with satellite age, which requires one to estimate and apply a large bias correction. In addition, satellites don't really measure the surface. The current technology measures something analogous to the average temperature of the lowest 5 to 10 km of the atmosphere. Some of the difference between satellite estimates and surface observations is presumably due to actual differences between surface temperature patterns and temperature patterns at a few km of altitude in atmosphere. Despite the coverage issues, I would tend to regard surface observations as much more authoritative for long-term changes in surface temperature patterns than the satellite-only temperature estimates. Dragons flight (talk) 07:04, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Out of curiosity after which report would you support posting this if the 2 sigma value happened to be 0.01 Celsius over for all four? Would you wait many days for the other two and how would you word it if you didn't? I know little about statistics. Is there a way to rigorously say that this is the most probable value with all the information we have, this is it's meta-standard deviation that follows from basic (undergraduate) math and the studies' SDs? Then you can make a probability of this beating 2010. Though maybe only if you accept the studies as equally good. If you have to weigh them or even discard any in an attempt to get the most accurate value that would seem to introduce non-rigorous human hunches. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:04, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral Not that I'm denying global warming exists, but the average temperature for a single year does not necessary prove anything since there are random fluctuations that will affect that; as the global warming reports point out, it is the trend over many years that's the key to prove of global warming. --MASEM (t) 22:11, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I think it's more newsworthy if it was the longest recorded streak of increasing temperatures, or highest over a much larger period. From a good science point, this is bordering on sensationalism news - an important data point that needs more context to understand better. --MASEM (t) 22:45, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As best as we can tell there is a trend of record years coming at an increasingly rapid pace (7 years, 5, and then 4) despite the fact that 1998 was a record El Niño (New York had only an inch of snow till winter was almost over, 26 inches is normal). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:58, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support A notable record that is getting plenty of media coverage. Nobody is suggesting that this - as opposed to all the scientific studies and reports - is what proves global warming, but still having the warmest year ever recorded is something that is likely to be of interest to readers. Neljack (talk) 22:40, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think that could be done quite simply by replacing "on record" (it is true that some temperature data going back millennia is technically "on record") with "since records began". Formerip (talk) 23:15, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And the last time the climate was significantly warmer horses were smaller and there were all these saber-tooth and giant animals. If your species survived the end of the Ice Age then this: Holocene is normal. Now there's even a talk of the present geological epoch ending by us causing the Anthropocene. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:30, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The story is based on a single press-release from NASA. Their headline is "NASA, NOAA Find 2014 Warmest Year in Modern Record". What they seem to mean by "modern record" is "since 1880" and that doesn't seem to be a big deal in either historical or geological terms. The claim is based on two different datasets maintained by two different organisations - GISS and NOAA - but we don't seem to have articles about those particular datasets. Pointing readers to very general articles such as anthropogenic climate change or instrumental temperature record isn't good enough because they are full of detail about other temperature records such as HadCRUT and Central England temperature and the reader will then have difficulty figuring out what has actually happened. Andrew D. (talk) 09:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose main blurb certainly not the hottest year ever. Also, the Earth's temperature has been fluctuating for a long time, just look at the 1970s "global cooling". P.S. Support alt blurb III, wording isn't misleading like the main one. --AmaryllisGardenertalk00:32, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That article says in the second sentence that global cooling had little support in the scientific community. You seem nice, you don't have to believe the lies spread by disagreeable to psychopathic people (like oil CEOs) who'd let the world suffer just to stay filthy rich. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry I somehow forgot about your ping but of course they didn't know. We have uninterrupted sunspot records going back centuries (Galileo was the first European to know sunspots existed around 1609). See the Maunder Minimum, very well established, actually read Little Ice Age, records of volcanos erupting, all very reasonable. It is obvious that if dim sunlight (Maunder Minimum) and below average temperatures (by pre-CO2 historical standards (3000 BC-1800s)) happened then strong sunlight (a hyperactive Sun) has to happen sometime, too. Hence, the Medieval Warm Period is totally reasonable to happen without extra carbon dioxide. But did you know that if we outlawed fire right now the temperature rise would still eventually double? Now *that* makes the Medieval Warm Period look like an extremely gently rolling and low hill: This chart was made ten years before. We are well off the scale by now (almost 0.7 °C). Does it look like you want to be several chart heights off the scale? The rise is too steep to show on this graph and that's half as steep as it should be because of how long it takes for a planet to warm up. Does that look like random variation to you? There's no way we're getting out of this with anything less than 200 something percent of today's temperature rise, much less if we do nothing for another half-century or two. 5°C in 85 years is possible if we do that, as hot as a prehistoric Ice Age is cold. Pleaaase just read that comic, it's only one frame. Also this is relevant to you: [14]Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support we certainly post much less important records often enough. And yeah to those few opposes blurb says on record, not ever. 84.248.158.8 (talk) 06:58, 18 January 2015 (UTC) this was me, sorry wasn't logged in. SeraV (talk) 07:00, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the very small data set alludes to "on record", doesn't it? One is reminded of all the hype about the Ozone Hole (!) which was reported as if it were some dire new development. The secret being of course, that the actual development was the launch of a satellite capable of detecting the Ozone Hole (!) which, as far as we know, may have existed for millions of years before we decided to look at it. Or, to give a simpler analogy, why do babies giggle endlessly at the game of peekaboo? If we had a set methodology, with the same measurements by the same instruments, worldwide, without reliance on models and assumptions, then this would be something to write home about. μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No offense but for the love of crap, you sound brainwashed. The ozone hole increased until the 2000s and then decreased, just in line with what would happen if we stopped using century residence time CFCs in the 80s and early 90s. Also there was at least one ground based (spectroscopic?) ozone measurement from 1959 or so. It was fairly mild then and adequate to block ultraviolet so no one noticed. I think there may have been a lower resolution 1970s satellite and it took the decline by the mid-80s to get them worried. Please read the article before making up your mind about things like this, you sound like a creationist in that comment, really. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:23, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sagittarian Milky Way: Can we stick to discussing the blurb, and keep from using words like "brainwashed"? But that's nothing next to the statement "you sound like a creationist in that comment, really.", which IMO is a personal attack, making creationists out to be idiots (I'm a Christian, not that it matters here), and I don't know why our religions have anything to do with this, Medeis could be an atheist, Christian, or whatever, it doesn't have a thing to do with this blurbs suitability for ITN. I knew nothing good could come out of this nom. --AmaryllisGardenertalk03:57, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I only made that comment because I don't think s/he believes creationists and that s/he would see similar arguing style to his denialism/ultrasceptiscism from the outside and might even be led to realize that they're pretty similar. Medeis knows a lot about biology, has shown a good ability to think about it on WP:Reference Desk/Science and doesn't even believe in free will (as opposed to the brain basically being like a machine where billiard balls come in from the world through your senses and billiard balls go out to tap switches that run your body, is how I'd describe determinism to a non-science person) even though a quantum mind is so much more appealing and not scientifically ruled out so Medeis might not even be religious much less creationist. Anyway if Genesis 1-3 happened the Fall of Man gave us this crappy timeline with all the death and sin and corrupted Bibles cause that thing is terrible. All the genocide and marrying your rapist and slavery. The Big Bang happened in this timeline and there is overwhelming evidence for it so that is why people that like science generally think creationism is stupid. If they didn't have the arguing style that they do but instead vehemently believed that the Fall of Man gave us this terrible timeline with the unfulfilling evolution and mortality and corrupted Bibles and so that it is not infallible anymore then they wouldn't object so much. That makes much more sense but they say that it really happened in this universe. I used to believe the Bible and the just the NT and then just the Gospels until without thinking about them much until in 2012 I thought this used to be blasphemous but there's no way this man is God, He was a very good man for His time but He's just not holy enough. I can tell that this Man only seemed like God in a much more horrible world than now but He is not the ultimate man. So I'm not an atheist or anything. There is a God, but bi Scripture. Anyway I'm wondering how a smart user could believe so much about science except when it comes to "doubling the carbon dioxide (it could happen) is bad" and "CFCs are bad". And how Medeis got to be so conservative when s/he's from the East Coast and LGBTQ. I think I'm more wondering what's the reason s/he doesn't believe global warming. Have you ever put a thermometer in a vial of carbon dioxide? And left it in the sun? By what magic is this not going to happen in the atmosphere? Some homeostasis system that'll work this time but can't stop all the ice ages and the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum and Cretaceous hothouse and the 20 feet higher sea level 100,000 years ago and no one that's a climate scientist thinks will happen? Medeis is scientific, I just don't get it. I'll try to be more civil. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:30, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And I like Genesis 1-3, but this universe obeys physical laws and that did not happen in it. You kind of have to be a science person to "get" the creationist "putdown". You know some first-worlders still believe the world is flat, now that is dumb. "Flat-Earther" had a similar meaning several hundred years ago. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:54, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your ranting is hardly relevant, point of this blurb is that last year was found to be warmest year on modern record, just in case you missed that. That is interesting enough record to post this, your personal dislike for it doesn't make it any less important nor does it make it untrue. SeraV (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I repeat, this NASA press release is about our record keeping, not about reality, in just the same way peekaboo is about a baby not realizing that you don't cease to exist when it can't see you. My pointing out that this "in 135 years" statistic isn't even objective, since it's based on models and assumptions, not consistent worldwide readings by calibrated devices, is hardly ranting. And I have no idea what you mean by my "personal dislike" or where it's evinced. μηδείς (talk) 20:08, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And I repeat hottest year in 135 years in interesting enough in itself. And your nonsense is really starting to irk me. I think it quite clear from your irrevelant comparisons (peekaboo, really?) and general annoyance that you have your own agenda here. SeraV (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@SeraV: "And your nonsense is really starting to irk me. I think it quite clear from your irrevelant comparisons (peekaboo, really?) and general annoyance that you have your own agenda here." I don't think that was called for. I think Medeis is right, it's about the record keeping, not about reality, and his peekaboo example was silly, but it explains it well. --AmaryllisGardenertalk22:20, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you do, and I think he is wrong. Reality is that as long as we have been keeping records last year was hottest year "on record". Not many is contesting that here, and that is what the blurb is about. SeraV (talk) 22:39, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it's only down to every 4 years now but yes, it's very frequent. No intelligent unbiased person who's studied this (in a "fan of sports"-like way not a get a PhD in it way) would think a year before true global measuring (and after 1879) has a realistic chance of beating 2014. They might even say that's almost impossible and I wouldn't argue with them. They would know how cold the 19th century and Little Ice Age was and say that the last warm period even close to the post-70s one is the Medieval Warm Period and that that could've been caused by an active Sun (given that we've had a Maunder Minimum and there were huge Medieval sunspots). Trying to obfuscate when this is obvious is not useful. There's no need to play Devil's advocate or show how sceptical and scientific you are on the tiny chance that all the climatologists are wrong. So if Medeis isn't doing this he must want global warming to not be real God knows why despite the 40% extra carbon dioxide and being a biology PhD (I think, or at least he likes science and has a high knowledge of it). Since Venus has a ton of CO² and is 850 degrees hotter than reflectivity predicts, and 400 degrees over a planet with 4 times the sunlight, it's up to the deniers to tell us why it's okay to dump 50 or 100% extra carbon into everyone's air. That's what the deniers want right? Use the fossil fuel reserves till 2100. It's not on the climatologists if they want to pollute everyone's property it's on the deniers to say by what mechanism the Earth will not warm when the greenhouse effect increases. This is paradoxical so it must be a homeostatic mechanism that a legion of climate scientists somehow haven't thought of or disproved. If there was some grand conspiracy more would speak out, scientists don't like falsehood. That is why I said these myths are started by disagreeable (at least) to psychopathic people because it is well known that the fossil fuel industry intentionally manufactures controversy and doubt to keep the con on for as long as possible just like the cigarette industry did. This is exactly what happened before they were found out and forced to pay tens of billions of dollars for it. If anyone went to jail (I don't know) they didn't fear it at the time because psychopaths have almost no fear, high pain tolerance and it would be impossible to punish them (short of literal 16 hour a day torture until death by old age, put a chip in their brain that would do that and increase it if the AI detects suffering and they would stop breaking laws). Though the simpler ones like "the sun is brighter" and "it's volcanos" are probably also started many times independently by people with a knee-jerk reaction to anything that sounds environmentalist. So they don't bother to look up that volcanos actually lower temperatures and the last solar cycle was weak. (2010 was the hottest on record with sunspot average that didn't breach 30, lol. It was near a very weak minimum.) It shouldn't be up to the most reckless and/or selfish and/or cold (both meanings, lol) to tell everyone how much carbon we can have. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How about those people's property rights? Those people that don't want more acid rain and water and hotter summers and stronger lake effect snow and less rain on their land? There is no such thing as libertarianism, because the atmosphere is not big enough. You're free to burn as much carbon as you want as long as you send it into space or something, though. And don't cause a space junk chain reaction! And seal it so it doesn't come back! And put it thousands of kilometers high so that it doesn't re-enter! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:32, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I've delayed voting a bit to see what the oppose votes were like. But, basically, we have "if it can't be proven that it's the hottest year since the Big Bang, then I'm not interested" and "even though an entire academic field thinks historical weather data is meaningful, it isn't". I suppose there is the question of when to post, given that there will be other studies published in the near future, but I can't see how anything other than the first one to call it makes sense - after that, it's old news revisited. I get that some people have eccentric views on climate change and some other people get irritated by that, but I don't see how any of that is very relevant here. The flow chart for whether this should be posted basically consists of "As a news topic, is the weather something that matters to everyday life and interests people?" and "Within the topic of weather, is temperature at all important?". Formerip (talk) 00:45, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's just a fancy way of saying this is somewhat over 50% chance of being over 2010 which itself is within the margin of error of 2005. It is still the best candidate for hottest year since 1880. And the recordholder of record, like the winner of the 2003 championship in college football. Should we have not posted that? Did you inherit a ton of Exxon stock in 2009 or something? That's got to make many people convince themselves that 42%+ more CO2 will find a way to not raise the temperature. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:16, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Even a non-science person who knows nothing about this subject and has common sense could figure this out: more than two error bands overlapped. This is kind of like creationists. Ooh, look at this! Confirmation! Thinking stopped! I don't have to be sceptical anymore! Anti-denialists: Hey, what, you've got evidence, there must be something wrong, I will not stop until I find out something wrong with it, consequential or not. The Earth is not warming/old. (defensiveness, knee-jerking ease of resolving that, being chicken to have a genuine & complete look at the evidence to see which side is really right)
And you're not even thinking you're defending the Word of God (in which case this would be good argumentation — if the Bible really was infalliable). What I'm really wondering is why you don't think global warming is real. Are you afraid of paying carbon taxes? It is a fairly small price to get off fossil fuels, less than the cost of not doing so. And you've already experienced extra economic gains from not switching earlier. It will only get costlier to switch the longer we wait to start due to having to do it faster, and the damage that's unavoidable will balloon. Also, I agree that it may have been rational to not start to switch until the end of the manufacturing-based economy, but to vigorously develop renewable energy after that. Then they would be mature technologies by now. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:48, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
SMW, I find your wall of text above almost impossible to parse, I see something about belief in God, and your odd attempt to make this about me personally. It's about the facts on one level and on a report by a single US gorvernmt agency on another, and has nothing to do with my preference for warm, dry summers and mild, wet winters.
I assume you are familiar with the three sigma rule for confidence in the physical sciences? In most cases, a likelihood within 3 standard deviation--a likelihood of 99.7% is taken as certainty. In the humanities, that's lowered to a two-standard deviation, 95% likelihood for claims of significance. Even at one standard deviation you're still looking at a 68% likelihood.
In this press release, the certainty is 38%, not above 50%, not 68%, not the humanities' level of 95%, and not hard science's 99.7 percent standard. And the predicted increase over 2010 (The last warmest year) is 0.02•C, while the margin of error is a whopping 0.1•C, five times that amount. From the above linked source:
In a press release on Friday, Nasa’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) claimed its analysis of world temperatures showed ‘2014 was the warmest year on record’. The claim made headlines around the world, but yesterday it emerged that GISS’s analysis – based on readings from more than 3,000 measuring stations worldwide – is subject to a margin of error. Nasa admits this means it is far from certain that 2014 set a record at all. Yet the Nasa press release failed to mention this, as well as the fact that the alleged ‘record’ amounted to an increase over 2010, the previous ‘warmest year’, of just two-hundredths of a degree – or 0.02C. The margin of error is said by scientists to be approximately 0.1C – several times as much. As a result, GISS’s director Gavin Schmidt has now admitted Nasa thinks the likelihood that 2014 was the warmest year since 1880 is just 38 per cent.
Given all this, we are left with an accurate blurb saying something like "NASA researcher's press release suggests 2014 is 38% likely to by one fiftieth of a degree warmer than 2010, with a tenth of a percent margin of error, 5 times greater than the number being "measured". μηδείς (talk) 17:19, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get to the blurb but your ultrascepticism of anthropogenic ozone holes seems to be a mental block against any evidence for it. Don't you think some chemist would speak out in 3 decades if full-strength short-wave UV didn't break down CFCs like it does to any other molecule, or if chlorine doesn't catalyze breakup of ozone which could be tested in any container, or if everyone made the same 4-function calculator errors calculating the quantity required? Or that they measured thick Antarctic ozone by balloon or spectroscope or something around International Geophysical Year (1957-58)? Creationists think they're defending the Word of God. What's your excuse? Not skimming the article before making up your mind on something that affects your worldview? I'm trying to show how that is kind of like creationists. They "know" that they're right, they don't need to test it. What's this? Something inconsequential like the name of the Holocene optimum or obsession with specific winter(s) and days that don't invalidate the core evidence? — Critical thinking stopped! I knew I was right! <post link>. Surprising for someone like that's so scientific (no irony intended). The records are just symbolic milestones, they don't have to be held up to the same standards as more important evidence. We could just write "NASA announces that the most likely value for 2014's average temperature beats the next highest on record by 0.04 °F (0.02 °C).". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:17, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
About the Holocene optimum name fascination/weather obsession, the level of evidence on warming denial sites like Watts Up With That is often just that. It means they have nothing better to post. The ones that sound scientific (non-peer reviewed of course) cannot possibly be made honestly, they know what they're doing, kind of like those false mathematical proofs of 1+1=1 or something like that. People would study how to sound sciency real hard for enough money, for one possible mechanism (of their existence). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:29, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there are a lot of possible weather records, and you can make even more news by interviewing bookmakers, it's true. But the hottest year ever recorded globally isn't really just a random record from the pack. Formerip (talk) 01:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Does this *look* like we haven't been recording long enough? (the dip is from sun-blocking air pollution) And the people who say "It's cold! Global warming's fake!" are like a Vegas crap shooter that says "Every gambler in the city is ahead since they were born! The house edge isn't real!" every time he wins his throw(s). See global weirding for why global warming makes extreme hot weather *and* extreme cold. (Though at least a bit more of the former). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk)
I think this should be posted now, with 6 supports and 3 opposes, consensus is there. Or if not then this discussion should be closed, since it has degenerated into a horrible ranting on all sides. SeraV (talk) 22:58, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, I thought you didn't have to say you Support to support when you nominated? Shouldn't I be the 7th support? Also I remember that at least one oppose is something like "This is not the hottest year ever", which is ludicrous since the world was molten lava 4.5 billion years ago. That would certainly be notable but is that the bar? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:59, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not Ready until there's an accurate blurb, something like, with a margin of error five times the size of the estimated .02C estimated rise over 2010,ref the last record holder, a NASA scientist estimates there's a 38% chanceref 2014 was the warmest year since 1880. Reporting this in absolute terms, with words like "hottest", is hardly neutral and informative. μηδείς (talk) 17:21, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nasa says last year was hottest on record still, daily mail says 38% change, why exactly would we believe daily mail over Nasa? Seriously stop messing around with this nomination, you are obliviously not neutral about this. SeraV (talk) 17:54, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Accurate blurb available. Also, most readers can divide 0.1 by 0.02, pointing that it is kind of POV as it doesn't cast doubt on even the less rigorous evidence for CO2 causes global warming, like that freaking chart. The Daily Mail, on the other hand, is tabloid rubbish. Also you made a 0.02C sandwich out of estimated bread, did you notice that? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:09, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And it should be like 0.02 °C as that is the proper way to write Celsius. Since the real previous warmer year was very likely either Medieval, tens of centuries ago, or roughly 1,000 centuries ago pointing out that the 1880 is because of insufficient data is important. Thus altblurb III. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:28, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It does look pretty hairy to add it in, more suited for someone who's added references in cluttered "reference + extra complex science paper template soup" articles before or one of our more Aspergic minds that find programming code readable. It would take me much longer. Should I defer to another editor? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:47, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not confident that Global warming is the best article to add this in. It takes a very high-level overview of the subject, and would probably not benefit from such a specific fragment as that 2014 is the warmest year on record. I recommend putting it into Instrumental temperature record and making that the blurb's featured article. Mamyles (talk) 19:09, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While it would be a good idea get people reading the main article, I just saw the nice hottest years list on Instrumental temperature record and would have to agree with you. Plus, much easier to update, lol. The references are NOAA not NASA, though. Who was it that broke the story? Or is more authoritative? I would guess NOAA cause they have a climate data center, the official US weather bureau and weather satellites and NASA is just a space agency, but what do I know? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:32, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile I don't get the impression that this is really "in the news". All that seemed to happen was that NASA put out a press-release and this was repeated by various media in the usual lazy way of modern churnalism. The story doesn't seem to have persisted though. For example, if you look on the BBC web site, the story isn't in their sections for World News or even Science & Environment. As the margin of the supposed record is smaller than the error bar, and the mean temperature is much the same as other recent years, the figures seem to indicate, not that we have some novel new spike, but that the temperature trend has plateaued, as described in global warming hiatus. How about about we add this new datapoint to the graph of NASA GISS temps to see if it looks any different. Andrew D. (talk) 01:19, 22 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Very large number of deaths. Confusingly, there were stories about floods in Malawi a few days ago that gave the death toll as about 48, presumably those are the same floods that are the subject of this article. [15] --Everymorningtalk22:24, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support subject to expansion, in light of the death toll. I note that the article and the BBC News report refer to at least 170 deaths (the ABC News article from the AP refers to 176), so perhaps the blurb should be changed to reflect that. Neljack (talk) 00:13, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose article is dreadful. Before supporting, others should become familiar with what is required, as a minimum, to see a new item at ITN. Please stop supporting items that are woefully inadequate. At the very least note that you support the significance of the item yet oppose the quality of the article. If you don't feel able to assess the quality of the article, you should only comment on the significance and indicate that you are unable to comment on the suitability of the update. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at, but an article in poor shape should not be posted on systemic bias grounds. 331dot (talk) 00:03, 20 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: I know normal ITN practice is to report on the result of a case, but SCOTUS and same sex marriage has been the elephant in the room for US politics for years, and now that they've actually gone to accept the case(s) that will decide the legality of the marriages across the entire US, is big news, and as the CNN linked article above reports, the fact they will hear it could affect the way the 2016 presidential campaign is run. (The ruling is not expected until June). It should be noted that SCOTUS has had some previous cases but limited to federal gov't recognition and to a specific state law. --MASEM (t) 21:24, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and oppose if/when it becomes a ruling. Because we have developed a bit of a bias problem in terms of always rejecting stories to do with gay marriage (on the grounds that it's, apparently, no longer a big deal), except when they happen in the US, where our approach is to post absolutely anything and everything related to gay marriage. It's just not on. Formerip (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this news, but support if the court decides in favor of gay marriage. If it becomes legal, the US will become the largest country where it is recognized. DHN (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: It has been found that the landing of Beagle 2 was successful, although the probe did not deploy properly afterwards. It is a major achievement in the history of British and European astronautics. Beagle landed just 5km from the centre of its targeted touchdown zone. Hektor (talk) 16:11, 16 January 2015 (UTC)--[reply]
Support with article updates (it's got some, could use a bit of touchup - including what tense to use to describe the probe since it still exists obviously...) --MASEM (t) 16:17, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose seems a little misleading to say "it's been found", as far as I could tell some half a dozen pixels in some "high resolution" images depicted what they believe to be Beagle 2. I'm not suggesting that the story is fake, but I'm just questioning the real significance of finding the probe which isn't doing much. It'd be the same (for me) if something took a picture of the footprints on the Moon (should they still be there), in other words, what's the actual story? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the story is that while they are basing images on pixels, they are pretty confident given the location (which they knew they were aiming for) and can recognize that the probe is technically intact on the surface - it made its landing but it did not deploy the solar panels. So we know its fate - that it successfully landed but did not complete deployment correctly. I'm sure that with further passes of the observer - now they know where to focus, they will get better images for future study. --MASEM (t) 20:45, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. It was kind of a unique mission and a famous failure, and it's interesting that they have found it, so I wouldn't really object to this going up. "Found" isn't really misleading at all. There doesn't seem to be any doubt that the thing that's been located is the robot. If one moment you don't know where something is and the next moment you do, that means you have found it. Formerip (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This story fails the ITN criterion that it have lasting impact (or should I say import?). The discovery does not explain the failure, and is but a historical footnote. Abductive (reasoning)21:21, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not that it invalidates your vote, but it seems that the discovery does explain the failure, because they've been able to identify that the robot landed safely but its solar panels didn't deploy properly. Formerip (talk) 21:37, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mechanical failure. I suppose now you're going to ask me why there was a mechanical failure, so let's cut to the chase and admit that there is never such a thing as a complete explanation. Formerip (talk) 00:21, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. For 12 years it had been assumed that the probe crashed on Mars. However, all this time later it has been found that this long-held theory was incorrect and the probe landed safely but a minor mechanical failure prevented it completely setting its self up. This is a significant update to a significant event in the history of Mars exploration. Thryduulf (talk) 20:51, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agree it's a surprise, but the article just says: "Beagle 2 may have crashed on to the planet or even possibly landed successfully" i.e. no one knows if there was "a minor mechanical failure" or anything else - all we have is an image. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:59, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The story has strong international interest and solves a long-term mystery. Widely in the news. Also now becomes the first European soft landing on Mars, though 2 solar panels did not deploy. Let's post it. Jusdafax08:52, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - an interesting bit of history and still a relatively significant discovery. How many others have landed on Mars? Simplysouth ......sitting on fans for just 8 years11:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Swiss franc to euro exchange rate jumps by 30% immediately following a Swiss National Bank announcement. The bank will abandon its three-year-old cap on the swiss franc's value against the euro as well as lower the interest rate on sight deposits (instant access accounts) to -0.75% (the negative number meaning that the depositor has to pay the bank 0.75% per year to hold the depositor's money). (BBC)(Bloomberg)
Clashes in Gyumri, Armenia between police and protesters demanding the handover of a Russian soldier accused of killing six members of a local family leaves at least twelve people wounded. (BBC)
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose not seeing any notable awards, but I am seeing a lot of unreferenced stuff in the article, his "solo works" list is mainly unlinked and unsourced. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:04, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wait Too much rumor at this point what this is about or significance. If related to the Charlie Hebdo shootings, might be interesting, but if this is, say, like a drug bust, eh... --MASEM (t) 20:02, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Even considering that, I'm not convinced of a story here; the US engages in similar raids and we generally don't note those stories. It seems to be more a story in regards to some of the visiblity the action got. --MASEM (t) 21:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The blurb needs to be updated to reflect the current state of events. It appears that there have been numerous raids across Europe. The item probably needs to be broader. JehochmanTalk13:21, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If it was a larger effort across Europe as a major anti-terrorist sting, I'd support this, but yes, we need that reflected. --MASEM (t) 16:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't know about the rest of Europe but there are "anti-terrorist raids" frequently in the UK. Perhaps we just don't make a massive fuss about it. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's why for me, if this was a multi-country coordinated effort to raid several cells at the same time across Europe, that's newsworthy, since that requires multi-agency cooperation and timing. But I'm not yet seeing that confirmed as such. --MASEM (t) 21:10, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But this is called "Belgian police raids"? Reiterate Oppose. Clearly getting mixed messages and there seems to be nothing significant here beyond regular police work. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Major financial news. This announcement was not expected and has lead to a huge spike in the value of the Swiss Franc. The Guardian source above describes the results as 'Currency and stock markets were thrown into turmoil'. --Modest Geniustalk14:57, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Anybody outside Switzerland who owes a debt in Swiss Francs is having a very, very bad day, as are those in Switzerland who rely on tourists for business. JehochmanTalk15:05, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Pretty much unprecedented from what I'm reading. Markets don't like surprises and so regulatory authorities generally try to avoid them - except in this case they didn't. Thryduulf (talk) 16:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see what you did there. In all seriousness, the currently had been held artificially low for three years (it should have been rising in relation to the steadily devaluing euro), so the rise was instantaneous relative to all other currencies. Thus, the fact that the currency rose is not surprising. Additionally, that the Swiss government did this with no warning is also not surprising, given that with advanced warning the government would lose (even more) billions from speculators. Mamyles (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the explanation. But won't the markets just return everything to an even keel quite quickly? Or does this signal that something has fundamentally and structurally changed in the economy of Switzerland or Europe or beyond? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2015 (UTC) p.s. IBT says the peak was "nearly 40% against the euro".[reply]
Trading at the end of the day shows the value of the Euro in Swiss Francs dropped by about 17% at the end of trading. If you read the first source for the target article it explains that Switzerland has also dropped its interest rate from negative .25% to negative .75%, meaning depositors will nominally lose money (pay interest) but in a more stable and highly valuable account. Basically the Swiss National Bank had been propping up the Euro. This means debt owed to Switzerland will become more onerous, Swiss accounts just jumped up 17% in value compared to the Euro (30% was a high during the day, not the ending value), and Swiss exports will become more expensive (this just means the exporters will drop their prices or loose market share) and it is a sign that the Euro will probably begin inflationary quantitative easing to stimulate the economy, with the risk of creating or exacerbating a bubble. Basically, it means Switzerland has recognized reality, and the EU will have to do so next. μηδείς (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure that's all true. But The Economist is just saying "The effect of such a big currency move may be significant..." But that's as far as it goes. No real prediction of dire economic consequences. As with any change in currency valuation, there will be winners and losers. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:48, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Your questions are a bit tangential, but could be relevant to determine the significance. Basically, this is the result of the market keeping "an even keel." The Swiss franc has been getting weaker in step with the euro not because demand for it dropped, but because the Swiss monetary authorities wanted it to stay at the same exchange ratio with the euro (1.2 francs per euro) even as the euro fell in value. As soon as the monetary authorities stopped creating an artificial demand inside Switzerland for euros, the franc went back to roughly the value that it would have been had that artificial devaluation not taken place. The macroeconomic significance of this is simply that the euro has been devaluing significantly faster than the franc. (interestingly, similar devaluations are still occurring with Chinese RMB in relation to USD) Mamyles (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Um, my questions, I assume. Thanks for yet another explanation. And again I'm sure it's all perfectly sound. But it's not making it sound any more, kind of, "significant". Yes, it's in the news, all over the place, but it sounds more like a small economic landslide than a notable earthquake? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose sensationalist blurb that the exchange rate jumped is without dispute, but unless I read the graphs incorrectly, it actually ended trading considerably less than the 30% claimed in the blurb. In fact, any blurb which tries to jump on a trend of a market trade which just so happens to make drastic changes without reporting that the trend is temporary and therefore not actually that relevant needs work. The real story is that the cap has been removed, that'll have a much longer and wider reaching impact than a day of opportunist trading which created the blip. Alternatively, the blurb should be amended to say that the value ended less than 16% up, unless of course we're just aiming for tabloidism and reporting the sensation and not the whole picture. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:10, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the valuation change should probably not be stated in an exact number. In regard to your assertion of this as a 'trend,' I will note that, as with any instantaneous change in a dampened environment, some oscillation will occur. That does not mean the change is temporary, and given that this is the result of lifting of artificial devaluation, all evidence points to this not being temporary. Mamyles (talk) 21:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Significant and sudden financial turmoil which is getting plenty of coverage. But TRM makes a fair point about the blurb, in that it is misleading to refer to a 30% increase in value without noting the subsequent decline to a more modest level of appreciation. Neljack (talk) 23:03, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Marked Ready and posted close of day trading value as an alt blurb, since the 30% figure was a spike upon announcement. It's the cap being raised that matters. μηδείς (talk) 23:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just those two sentences, with the single source for "turmoil", are enough of an article update? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:38, 15 January 2015 (UTC) ::There were three sentences, with three separate new sources. Someone may have changed that, but a new prose paragraph with three sources is considered cromulent. If we want to wait a few hours I can fudge up something as filler--there's the Swatch price drop. μηδείς (talk) 00:41, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting oppose reiteration a terrible and loaded blurb, not sticking to the straight-and-narrow. Please work on fixing it so we avoid POV terms like "significantly". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:50, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Explain which this is a POV term. It might be imprecise, but it can hardly be said that there has been no significant increase in the value of the Swiss franc recently. Formerip (talk) 21:58, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, let's go back to basic English. "Significant" is entirely dependent on context. Therefore, to claim something as "significant" depends on the point of view of the person claiming it to be "significant". Hell, if we have to go back to giving dictionary definitions of phrases at ITN, we might as well close it down entirely. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:07, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But, in this case, what's the point of view from which "significant" would not reasonably apply? Unless there is one, there's no POV problem. Formerip (talk) 22:12, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, but that's nothing to do with NPOV, and I don't really understand why it's a problem, particularly in a case like this where attaching a figure might cause an actual NPOV issue. Formerip (talk) 22:21, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, it's the other way round. If we attached a figure then it would be 100% accurate, NPOV and not sensationalist. Quite why you think attaching an objective figure to a blurb would suddenly "cause an actual NPOV issue" is bizarre. Right now it's just awful. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:26, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Because we would need to choose between various time-points and comparators. 15%, 22% or 30% might all be arguable, but they're also all likely to be controversial and probably not neutral. "Significantly" has the advantage of being undeniable and fair. If I told you that next door's dog was barking loudly, would you object that I'm being biased because I haven't given you a figure in decibels? Formerip (talk) 22:34, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you told me you'd be nominating something as nebulous as the volume of your neighbours' dog, I'd object. As I have here. The answer to your question is that the dog is barking loudly, but the answer to this question is nothing like that. We can precisely quantify the issue at hand. Significant is anything to anyone and, as such, is utterly useless in an encyclopedia without provided context. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:41, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not useless, because it doesn't tell us nothing. It tells us enough for our purposes, which are just to communicate that something, well, significant has happened. I do look forward, though, to you demanding rainfall figures be inserted into blurbs about "severe" flooding and precise data from medical reports every time the "seriously injured" are mentioned. Formerip (talk) 23:11, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: I think this is an interesting record which is difficult to achieve and thereby worth considering for inclusion. Hendry held the record with 775 centuries and given the fact that all active players are hundreeds of centuries behind this number, it's hard to believe that any other player would pass Ronnie O'Sullivan in near future. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm unsure about this. The amount of professional snooker played - both the number of matches and frames per match - has varied wildly over the last few decades. Players have thus had very different numbers of opportunities to make century breaks. Century break#Players with 100 century breaks notes a huge increase in the number of players reaching 100 centuries over the past ~decade. Is this a meaningful record? Modest Geniustalk15:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - As a snooker fan in general, and an O'Sullivan fan in particular, I think this has no place anywhere near ITN. It's a nice thing to have as a player, but it has no real effect on anything. Fgf10 (talk) 21:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Did you realise that, back in the day, the world championship would be decided not as "best of 33" but "best of 145" (e.g. see 1946 World Snooker Championship)? The opportunity to score centuries is probably the same or less than it has ever been. The major difference these days is that players play more tournaments, but they are much shorter in duration than those conducted historically. This story has been doing the rounds in my locality and some are saying it's the most important snooker record ever, and unlikely to be beaten for decades given the next active players (Neil Robertson and Ding Junhui) have 350 centuries compared to Ronnie's 776. And Calidum's explanation is baffling, without justification and should be immediately rejected as absurd. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:27, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, how dare I think we should be consistent when it comes to these things. If we reject Player X breaking a career record in fly swatting, why post Player Q breaking a record in widget washing? -- Calidum21:30, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well we (ironically) posted a century of centuries if I recall correctly, but I really don't have the energy to find it, I'm sure you'll be capable enough to do it! And by the way, just because I opposed one particular sporting story, it doesn't mean there's some kind of logical sequitur that insists I oppose all sporting stories. That's in no way a valid argument, so better off stopping it now. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:40, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Question: In terms of importance within the sport, how does this compare to say # of World Championships won. If it truly is (close to) "the most important snooker record ever", can you provide a source that says so? --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Uncertain one way or the other. Every single post needs to be adjudged of its own accords, without comparing to other things which may or may not have been posted in the past for any number of reasons. What we need to know, beyond it being merely a record, is the nature of the record within the sport. There are many records which sports have, and being unfamiliar with Snooker, I don't know whether or not to judge that this is THE RECORD that we should make a big deal about, or instead just a marginal record of little importance over other events in the sport. I can only draw connections to sports I'm familiar with; in Baseball for example, certain gold-standard records are considered newsworthy above the rest. I can't imagine we wouldn't post if someone broke Joe DiMaggio's hitting streak record, given how long it has stood, and how it is often held up as one of the most important records in the sport. But you'd have to know baseball to know the stature of that record; someone unfamiliar with the sport would have no way to judge the record without the historical context to know why that is the most important record in baseball. Since I have no snooker knowledge, what I am asking for is some evidence of that context, provided by those who know it, preferably to some outside press which indicates the importance of the records. Is this the most important record in the game, something people will speak of for decades, or is this merely just another minor statistic likely to have passed unnoticed except for snooker stats junkies (whatever the snooker equivalent of sabermetricians are? If someone could provide that context, it would go a long way towards convincing me (and likely others) of whether or not this is a newsworthy event... --Jayron3220:49, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We're lucky we can actually post the Super Bowl honestly. Of course, that doesn't mean someone won't try to block it from being posted for "not being adequately updated." -- Calidum15:54, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Gah. You don't know how hard was it for the Super Bowl to be posted prior ITN had ITNR. Whatever the argument against college football was also used lol (except maybe for the "college/amateur" argument). –HTD17:58, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Um....they usually don't end up floating down the river? There also seems to be some relation to the deaths of unmarried girls.331dot (talk) 10:19, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well I heard that it is happening quite often. The locals, both in Unnao and Jhansi, say that floating bodies was a common phenomenon for the people living by the river's side.[17] Maybe the scale is unusual due to drought. "Has there been a good flow in the river, the gush of water would have washed them away. But this year, the flow of Ganga is so meek that these bodies got accumulated," said Mantu (65) of Babu Bangla village in Unnao. But that is all. --Jenda H. (talk) 13:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't seem like there's any sinister explanation for this. The bodies of unmarried girls are, sadly, often thrown into the river without ceremony. But that isn't newsworthy. The river is unusually low and, for reasons that don't seem clear, this has caused a large number of bodies to float to the surface. It's a local environmental health concern, but it doesn't seem like a story of particular global importance. Formerip (talk) 10:28, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We don't really have a systematic bias problem on ITN when it comes to this part of the world, though. If we were talking about the former USSR or Latin America, then you might have a point. Formerip (talk) 12:29, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose while number of bodies is certainly odd, bodies floating in ganges do happen recularly. Unless there is something sinister behind this and it doesn't seem so, I don't see this as particularly important story. SeraV (talk) 14:21, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Per above. This doesn't sound like a 100+ bodies dumped in the river as an act of malice, but just something that happens infrequently. --MASEM (t) 16:47, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "Um....they usually don't end up floating down the river?" - last time I was in Varanasi, just for a couple of days, I saw at least six dead bodies floating down the Ganges, one was a baby. It happens, and it doesn't stop being shocking, but yes, they do end up floating down the river. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The floating dead bodies is a common phenomenon in sacred River Ganges, but this time retrieiving of 100+ bodies from a single place and that too of children and unmarried is what makes it one of the rare incidents. MehrajMir (Talk)05:57, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support reports say this was bodies of children and unmarried girls--what we used to call virgins. I suspect this is a much bigger story that graves being emptied by a flood, and suggest that users like Jenda H., FormerIP, SeraV, AmaryllisGardener, etc., reconsider the sources and explain why only dependent children and unmarried women appeared in such a mass. Had the bodies not been found in the Ganges, but in one village, I wonder if the vote and rationales given would be different.
I am reminded of John Maxwell Hamilton's Hold the Press: "One Englishman is a story. Ten Frenchmen is a story. One hundred Germans is a story. One thousand Indians is a story. Nothing ever happens in Chile." μηδείς (talk) 22:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In India, when a child or an unmarried woman dies, they are not allowed to be burned or buried, rather their bodies are thrown in rivers or sometimes seas..yes I know its dumb and they do not understand how this could lead to chances of diseases but alas, its India, religion trumps logic there...--Stemoc23:51, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the increase about 90% is certainly huge and unusual. But still I have no reason to see something sinister behind it. Also local crematorium for poor people is out of order for at least five years.[18] So it is not just religion staff. --Jenda H. (talk) 00:34, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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[Posted] First free climb of the Dawn Wall of El Capitan[edit]
Nominator's comments: An interesting accomplishment, looks like one of the highest challenges for free climbers (foregoing any other equipment to help the climb safe for safety ropes). --MASEM (t) 00:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Seems a notable achievement in climbing, an area we don't see many (probably none) posts in. Getting some coverage. 331dot (talk) 00:43, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not wishing to diminish the achievement in any way, but this is the first free-climb only of a particular route, not the formation itself, and not the most infamous route at that. Stephen05:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm not a climber, but all the sources suggest this is like the tallest and most difficult free climb out there, and consider that Caldwell has been scoping this climb (looking for where all the usable handholds would be, the various safe "stations" where they would "camp" (hanging from safe points) since at least 2008. --MASEM (t) 06:08, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment it's worth noting that, to the unitiated, it would seem the climb took place in one contiguous two-and-a-half week block, but reading the National Geographic report it seems they had three different "base camps" throughout the exercise, made numerous separate climbs and Jorgeson fell numerous times and had to restart certain sections. It's an interesting achievement but I felt misled when I discovered how they'd actually "free climbed the Dawn Wall"... The Rambling Man (talk) 13:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I could support this, but El Capitan seems to have been updated with only a single sentence about this climb. If it is that big a deal, we need more than that. Formerip (talk) 13:32, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote that sentence and am damn proud of it! But you are right, if we don't have more new content, that article should not be a target. Perhaps the articles about the two climbers should be the targets, but if there's not enough new material there, then maybe this isn't the big deal (media circus) that it appears to be. JehochmanTalk13:59, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What kinda sucks is i dont see a whole lot on the actual wall that they climbed. Without it its hard to tell how difficult the climb actually was. Only article is El Captain which has bunch of walls. -- Ashish-g5516:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This NatGeo has a good picture of the climb they took. The Dawn Wall, for all purposes, is nearly vertical, compared to the other sides of the mountain. Unfortunately, not a climber, I'm not able to easily find how the Dawn Wall is rated on a technical merit easily, but it's clear that this climb was significant. Note that I did create the article on Jorgeson so that the the ITC nom was about the two climbers, not so much the mountain. --MASEM (t) 16:46, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This offers some perspective on the difficulty of Dawn Wall which is both exceptionally hard technically and exceptionally long, making it arguably the hardest free climb in the world. Dragons flight (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Dawn Wall climb is mentioned in the list of climbs, but that article does need sourcing improvement overall. --MASEM (t) 21:47, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Question Am I correct in thinking this is neither the first climb of this mountain, or even the first climb of this route on this not particularly tall mountain? What is the news value here? Fgf10 (talk) 22:41, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is the first complete free climb of this face of El Capitan. The route's been climbed with traditional climbing tools before, and other routes on different approachs of the mountain have been scaled by free climbing (including by Caldwell), but this specific face was previously considered an impossible route to be free climbed due to the near shear-ness of the face. The two had had two aborted attempts before, once due to an injury, another due to weather. --MASEM (t) 22:49, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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An offensive and borderline anti-American piece in a tabloid site, clearly written by someone who doesn't understand why this is notable to the climbing world, is not a reason to oppose this. 331dot (talk) 11:14, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Further, if you want to see the Belgium story posted, I invite you to contribute to the discussion above. Posting one doesn't mean the other can't be posted. This isn't just the negativity and anti-terrorism box, it is the in the news box. 331dot (talk) 11:16, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear 331dot. The Daily Mash is a well known satirical website, and most certainly not a tabloid site. Think The Onion. Even if you didn't know, it would take at best thirty seconds to work out it's satire. How embarrassing. Pedro : Chat 11:55, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not embarrassed to not be aware of every satire website on the Internet. I'm sorry I'm not as smart as you are, apparently. Thanks a lot. Pedro. 331dot (talk) 11:58, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh dear. I understand you're feeling embarrassed but that's no reason to go on the attack. As I clearly said, it's not hard to do the research - you didn't. Whatever. Pedro : Chat 12:18, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Pedro: What I said was not an attack, just a statement; you must be smarter than me and have more time to research every link that is posted. I assume that people post links in good faith absent a reason to research one, which I didn't see here. I say I'm not embarrassed, but you insist that I am. I guess you know me better than I do. 331dot (talk) 12:28, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Calling these two men arseholes, idiots, and "obviously American" is not humorous, but it really doesn't matter. It's not a reason to oppose this widely covered, notable achievement. 331dot (talk) 11:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because of consistency, those who support this don't seem to think that that snooker story is just as important, personally I don't see much difference. SeraV (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I've read it up, I've thought about it a lot, and I can't really see that this is anything truly ground-breaking. There's a certain amount of synthesis and nostalgia going on when people try to claim that this was "impossible" to climb. It's hardly summiting Everest, and as I noted above, many people will not realise that it was done in a number of "pitches", during which the climbers fell numerous times, saved by their ropes. It's not quite as exciting as the claim appears to be. Don't believe the hype. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:20, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As a comment, if this does not go through ITN, with my recent creation of the Jorgeson's article, I can DYK this. --MASEM (t) 19:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's certainly much more appropriate for a DYK than a news item. For the love of God, two people spending two weeks climbing 1000 metres, falling periodically, being assisted all the way, how is that newsworthy? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:19, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Arguably the same can be said for nearly all the sporting news we post, since a bunch of people running and jumping around for a few hours is arguably the same. Again, I'm not a climber, but the fact this was highlighted by many reports (And in the days up to their completion, there's a good deal of coverage on the anticipation) shows that there is definitely a short term interest in it to justify ITN inclusion. --MASEM (t) 16:48, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support based on the level, depth, and nature of coverage this receives in the press. I know nothing about rock climbing, but it is clear from the context I can find in reliable sources that this is a major superlative event within the discipline, and since sources treat it as such, we should too. --Jayron3220:53, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Jayron. Not an enthusiast myself, but prima facie this is important, we've not had such a nom before, and this in no way competes with what's going in in Belgium. μηδείς (talk) 21:05, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would Support if it's not too old. This is real climbing, with the rope only used to arrest falls. It is a 5.14d rated difficulty of climb, the only harder climbs that have been done are 5.15a, 5.15b and 5.15c (the last 3 times) but this is much longer, approaching the point where there are not taller vertical drops on Earth. There's only 1 climb over 30 climbing ropes long that's over 5.13d (in a database of 120,000+) and that's "only" a 5.14a. They mostly climbed shirtless at night in January at thousands of meters above sea level two mountain ranges inland from San Francisco it was that strenuous. El Capitan and Half Done are the only climbing rocks I've heard of (besides the record tall cliffs in Extremes on Earth) so they are the most famous. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:12, 17 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Under the definition that news sources are devoting time to covering it. At Wikipedia, we base our decisions here on what sources say about something (or perhaps don't say, in the case of stories we decide not to run). The decisions are not based on what we wish news sources spent time covering. "I really wish that reliable sources like the BBC didn't cover this in so much detail" is not a valid opposition. --Jayron3217:26, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
On the second day of his papal visit to Sri Lanka, Pope Francis canonizes Saint Joseph Vaz at a beachfront park at the Indian Ocean, and later visits the northern portion of the island for a prayer service at the Sri Lankan Shrine of Our Lady of Madhu, which was a prominent area landmark damaged in the Sri Lankan Civil War. (Catholic News Service)[permanent dead link]
The U.S. Secret Service removes four of its highest-ranking leaders while a fifth one retires. The continuing restructuring and fallout stem from a string of public security lapses beginning with the misconduct at the 6th Summit of the Americas. The most recent stage of the restructuring began in October 2014 with the resignation of then-Director Julia Pierson. (The Washington Post via MSN)
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Oppose We do not regularly post bus crashes irregardless of number of deaths. (Moreso that this was a prisoner transport bus as opposed to public transportation which generally attracts more attention). --MASEM (t) 03:15, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose precedent now is that vehicle crashes need about 30 victims to be notable enough, unless some other factor (famous victim, felony) is involved. Even then, it's not a shoe-in. The exception seems to be French train crashes, where we posted one, very contentiously, in which 7 died. That article was edited a whole 5 times in 2014μηδείς (talk) 05:06, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Doesn't seem to be anything significantly unusual about this crash; if it was a deliberate escape attempt by prisoners, that might be different. 331dot (talk) 20:44, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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[Posted] Giorgio Napolitano ends as president[edit]
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support Having been in the same office for 10 years, this is a significant event. We should also post a blurb when the new president is chosen. Note that I have changed the blurb a bit to more adequately reflect that he was the Italian president. Both articles need the addition of at least a few sentences addressing his resignation. Mamyles (talk) 20:07, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Who is his replacement? If possible the resignation and replacement should go together. Does this office have power or is it purely ceremonial, with the prime minister actually being the head of state? JehochmanTalk21:27, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is an acting replacement; I'm not sure how or when a permanent replacement is chosen; though thinking about it it makes sense to me that we could wait to post the choosing of the permanent replacement as the ITNR item. 331dot (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From reading President of Italy, the position does have power (appointments, pardons, etc), and it looks like the replacement will be chosen after a lengthy (multi-round) election. We will need to decide here whether this resignation is significant in its own right, or whether we should only post the election results of the successor. Mamyles (talk) 21:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose a "very notable political figure" gets him an RD nom when he dies. We don't do unscandalous retirements of old men. No one 100 years from now is going to comment on the shocking historical significance of this act. μηδείς (talk) 05:09, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Napolitano has been an unusually important President - he was dubbed "Re Giorgio" ("King George"). He played a crucial role in resolving the political crises of 2011 and 2013. In 2013 the leaders of the major parties and the regional governors combined to persuade him to very reluctantly submit himself for election to an unprecedented second term. He is easily the most respected political figure in Italy and has been seen as an important stabilising figure. Neljack (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: This is controversial because we already posted this shortly after it went missing last month. However this seems like a significant development in the story. --Everymorningtalk16:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I am curious if we should include the initial finding (not confirmed) that the plane effective crashed into the water and broke up (as opposed to a mid-air breakup), even though this is only a working theory. Or if we should wait for a more official statement (prior to the full analysis) of what the failure was. --MASEM (t) 16:41, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that could be reflected. "Clusters of wreckage of Indonesia AirAsia Flight 8501, including its flight recorder and its fuselage, are found in the Java sea after its disappearance on December 28, 2014." --MASEM (t) 16:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - While finding the fuselage is important in determining the causes of the crash, I don't think it is a significant enough event that we should post the story back in ITN. It is normal to find the fuselage after an air crash (it is far more noteworthy when they don't find it, as with Malaysia Airlines Flight 370), and in this case it was always expected that they would find it. Since it was expected, it doesn't seem like the sort of major new development that would warrant returning the story to ITN. Calathan (talk) 21:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Thank you for the nomination. This is an expected development, and the article has already had its days on the home page. I don't think enough has changed to warrant posting the article a second time. JehochmanTalk21:26, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think the fact we're still waiting to find any evidence of MH-17 doesn't make this "an expected development" in the current climate. Moreover, it took a few weeks to do this. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:09, 16 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Divers recover the cockpit voice recorder from the crashed jet. The Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee states that by using the now collected recorders a preliminary report on the accident will be produced within a month and a final report after a year. (AFP/Reuters via ABC News Australia)
Egypt's highest court overturns and initiates a retrial on the only remaining conviction against former PresidentHosni Mubarak (a May 2014 sentencing of three years in prison for embezzlement). (Reuters)
The U.S. Supreme Court rules 9–0 in favor of homeowners that the Truth in Lending Act clearly states that a simple notice by the homeowner to the bank within three years seeking to rescind their mortgage suffices over an actual court-filed lawsuit. (Reuters)
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Oppose It is hacking of the Twitter and YouTube accounts (eg simple password break) as opposed to any central Centcom server, so it is not as severe as, say, the Sony hack. Further, we are not sure of the identify of the group - they have stated Islamic feelings, but that simply could be trolls trying to stir up stuff. --MASEM (t) 20:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"You can find maps showing the same things on the websites of many US think-tanks." The BBC article and response downplays any serious breach of US security matters. It's a bit of hysteria how it is being reported. --MASEM (t) 21:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that it reads that all the information leaked were from unclassified documents that were either posted in public areas on the military websites or from think tanks that worked with the military, or otherwise public information. I'm sure they are checking their internal servers to see if they were hacked, but these stories are expressing the initial idea that no, no breach of Centcom servers was made in regards to this - this was the weak security measures of Twitter and YouTube that enabled that. --MASEM (t) 21:31, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The point is I'm agreeing with you and your assessment of what's been published. Nevertheless, the US government's own accounts have been hacked, by someone, and it's major news whether your personal assessment of the infraction agrees with it or not. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that it is the security of Twitter and YouTube that failed, not the US Gov't's account measures (unless it was a weak password). There is a false panic here. Twitter and YT by default have weak security (with YT, there is arguably 2 factor google authentication), and there are accounts hacked on an all-too-frequent basis on these sites. Being a gov't account is nothing "special" here. The only thing that would make it special if the group that pulled it off were directly tied with terrorist groups that the US is fighting against, but there's no indication of that yet. Every security expert that's talking about talking about the press fearmongering by misleading reporting, there's no threat because a twitter account was hacked. --MASEM (t) 21:41, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I saw the Twitter feed before it was taken down and it wasn't really anything to write home about. The information could easily be found online, and the rest of it just consisted of attacks on the nation. Nothing huge came out of the leaks, so I wouldn't consider this all that notable. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Support because why not. ITN regularly features mass tragedies, and because of the unusual circumstances this one is certainly more notable than a bus crash. Gamaliel (talk) 16:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support It appears that several dozen people did die, but "crocodile bile" may indeed be a hoax. I've suggested a different altblurb. Samples of beer and blood have been sent in for testing, so let's just call it "contaminated beer" like many sources do. (I have no objection to "poisoned beer" either, if that makes more sense.) WneQ (talk) 19:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Poisoning sounds likely, but unless there's some evidence, contamination (i.e., accidental) is possible, So I would stick with contaminated for now--PS that's a Support especially since this is the sort of thing where I would come to WP for factual reporting. Obviously the article needs expansion. μηδείς (talk) 19:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support altblurb since it has not been confirmed that crocodile bile was the poison - they are still carrying out tests. An unusual incident that is likely to get plenty of international attention and be of interest to our readers. Neljack (talk) 20:20, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Suppoer altblurb as the true cause of death may take a few days or so to figure out, but the number dead is significant. --MASEM (t) 20:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Marked Ready yes, with this edit it's been more than doubled in the last few hours, and while it might use some fiddling it's technically ready by new article requirements. μηδείς (talk) 23:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
[Closed] First college football playoff ever[edit]
If the consensus is not clear after ~10k words of discussion, it's never going to be. I know this will disappoint many people, but given the length and quality (or lack thereof) of the discussion, keeping it open is not in anybody's best interests. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:15, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: In 1869 AD, the first championship of the original form of US football was kind-of not really "decided". The game grew more violent until up to 20 players died per year. There were no fouls — you were allowed to just punch or drop-kick a 13-year old or break his bones. There was no padding.
The US President stepped in to prevent American football from being outlawed and it slowly got safer. (non-college American football wasn't popular until around this time)
But they still didn't know who the college champion was some years. The sportswriters just started voting who the winner was in the 1930s. A rival coaches poll started. Eventually the winners were chosen by the Byzantine system that the coaches were contractually obligated to vote the winner of one game set up by a weighting of human and computer polls the winner which wasn't the sportswriters' champion 6% of the time. Three voters once breached their contract. A coach once lobbied and voters were besieged by calls.
Even Obama wanted to end this.
In 2014 a 13-member committee that includes George W. Bush's Secretary of State used advanced methods to decide the top four college football teams the best they could. Finally in 2015 AD they played in the first tournament of college American football and the Final Is today. --Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose There are some outlandish claims being made here. How do we know what the economic / social importance of the event is, or whether it's the 2nd most watched annual sporting event in the US, if it's never happened before and hasn't happened yet? I could perhaps be persuaded that the result of the college football season is worth posting, but so far the arguments have either been speculative (as just described) or based on the change of the season layout (introduction of a playoff), neither of which seem very convincing to me. GoldenRing (talk) 04:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Changed per Tryduulf below - this is a minor change in the format of the season. The championship itself is not ITN/R and there is nothing significantly unusual about this year's championship to merit posting. GoldenRing (talk) 01:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and it was ungentlemanly to do those things (like break a man's ribs) and some weren't willing anyway (not everyone's a thug), and most players were not bright enough to get into college in their early teens, but both still happened. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No padding is not a line of argument, I just thought it was a cool part of the 146 years. And what you can do in rugby is pussy compared to what you can do in football (but there is no padding so rugby might still be the rougher sport). At any rate the football of that time was much tougher than any sport now. Is there any sport where you can signal for a fair catch and have your nose shattered by a punch and simultaneously be given a field goal kick without penalty? And 12-20 players die in two months of play? That's in the linked breakdown of 1905's deaths. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but I think you've muddied the waters somewhat with all that. So what's the basis of the nomination? That the format of the season has changed? GoldenRing (talk) 05:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The sport is significant enough in US culture that it should be in every year but this is a year of historical significance to the sport of American football. The tradition of bowl games (~80 to 113 years old) are a reason why this took so long. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 08:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Those who oppose this are uninformed. The college football championship is one of the most watched sporting events in the US; it's rating greatly exceed the World Series, NBA finals, Stanley Cup finals, the four tennis majors, and the four golf majors, all of which we post. We also post a half dozen soccer stories each year, but American football gets only one. It's time to change that. -- Calidum05:09, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Enough with the ad hominem. What you say might well be true, but how is this nomination, of some new fixture in the season, a significant item that should be posted at ITN? I'm not saying it isn't; I'm saying it hasn't been explained why it is, yet. If we start posting changes to the layout of fixtures in sports, where will it end? And we probably post half a dozen football stories each year because, you know, that's a game played by most of the world. GoldenRing (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
About half of our readers are American. Why do their bare 6 championships overwhelm the system when the sum of three kinds of footy, three kinds of cricket and two kinds of rugby manage not to? (Two kinds of English football championship, sheesh.) This is one of the last major sports in the world where it's false that enough of the best compete to decide the winner that it's unlikely the best one doesn't get a chance. I think Test cricket might be one (or actually championship-less, even worse), I don't see why the new Test Cricket World Championship shouldn't be posted either. With only two spots, it's highly likely that the best football team will one year be physically unable to win (because there are 3 nearly equal top teams and they can only pick two), that situation happened in 2003. At least you'd need a "five-way tie for first place by acclamation" for this system to screw up which I think is unlikely. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:50, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not about overwhelming the system, it's about balance. As for the remainder of this comment: Please take a step back and try to explain this to someone with zero interest of, or experience in, American football. It's currently incomprehensible to me. I am unable to parse the sentence, "This is one of the last major sports in the world where it's false that enough of the best compete to decide the winner that it's unlikely the best one doesn't get a chance." I am sure the fault is all my ignorance; just please try to step back and explain, simply and cogently, to someone who knows nothing about the competition, why the event you have nominated is significant. GoldenRing (talk) 06:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The co-founder of Nike wanted one of the two teams playing to win so badly that he gave them $300 million. $70 million for a 1 hectare locker room (with Jacuzzis for the coaches and dehumidified, climate-controlled foot lockers) Who the hell gives a 10 meter square of locker building to every player? You can read more about this here: [19]
Look at the list of the largest stadiums in America, 15 of the top 16 most capacious stadia are non-professional college football stadiums. There are 8 college football stadiums over 100,000 capacity. The top 3 are college football only. Despite having a smaller field the 110,000 of the largest is I believe larger than any cricket ground on Earth. Many Americans follow their alma mater's team all their life and some non-players even choose which college to go to based on how good their football team is.
And college football is one of the last major sports in the world where the postseason is so small (2 teams) that the best team of the regular season has a good chance of being physically unable to get in that field (and having a chance at winning the championship). That is what the overly complicated sentence meant. There are other postseason games but they were not in the "tournament" (of one game, lol). Now the litany of BCS controversies that got Americans talking shouldn't happen anymore. It's not easy to do seeding with dozens and dozens of teams (only a few can be played - 12/13 game seasons) and varying strengths of schedule, so the pick 4 committee was needed instead of going by win-loss records (and there are many ties in those). If you're wondering why they didn't do more levels of games, they wouldn't have enough time to study for one reason. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 07:57, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The University of North Carolina wanted to win so badly that this happened. You absolutely have to read that. Some research universities are just football teams with universities attached instead of universities with football teams attached. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 07:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Super Bowl is the only notable event in this sports calendar that gets a mention here, this is amateur level and has no following or interest outside of US..--Stemoc06:13, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If the non-expat viewership is over 20% the total I'd say you're right. If not I'd say it's rhetorically true. Obviously it has some non-expat viewership. (And of course the NFL are the first-league players, I now see that it might sound like I said they're not.) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:56, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it is unclear outside of the microcosm of US college football what the significance of this is, the blurb provides little indication as to why it would make any sense to anyone else. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As said above nobody outside US would understand why this is even remotely important... First reaction by anyone would be why is college sport of any country even on ITN. And if only reason to post it is that a lot of our readers are from US then thats basically the definition of Systemic Bias. -- Ashish-g5514:51, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict × 2) Oppose. Despite reading the extensive arguments here, I still do not understand why this is significant outside US college football. I get that it is a massive deal for some people who follow this single country amateur sports league, but that doesn't translate into being relevant to the front page of a general purpose encyclopaedia.Thryduulf (talk) 14:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
ESPN, a cable network, paid $7.3 billion for 12 years of games, the majority of which will go the playoff games. $2/yr/American. That's, say $500 million for only 3 games while US television paid $1200 million for 17 days of London Olympics. That's say 68 hours of primetime and 6x12=72 hours of weekends. ~$500 million is for 12 hours of college football on cable. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:56, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand comments like this one, asking about relevance outside of the sport. Is the cricket championship relevant beyond cricket? Or any other sport? We post top level sports competition championships, and while the "amateur" may throw people, this is a major sporting event on par with those in ITN/R. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It makes for a nice factoid, "Did you know that the first ever college playoff took place in 2015...?" I can't really see how it's really "news", just trivia. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that the playoff was instituted was news when that happened. It's been a big deal here, even Barack Obama has discussed it at length. But I'm not for posting that it's the first championship game to happen in this playoff system, I'm for posting whether it's Ohio State or Oregon that wins the game. We can mention that it's the first playoff in the blurb. I get that college football isn't professional (strictly speaking) throws off the Euros here, but college football in the U.S. is a big deal and in many places its more important than the NFL. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I note that the more-ordered NCAA basketball playoffs (aka March Madness) which is just as big as college football within the states is not ITN/R, so I don't think we start showcasing the football side here. There is potentially something here about the major change to the structure of the finals, enforcing a better playoff structure, but that's again, only of interest to those that follow the sport at that level, and we've not really included amateur or college/uni-level sports at ITN in the past, this doesn't feel like a reason to start now. --MASEM (t) 16:15, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we posted the NCAA basketball championship in 2013, but didn't have the consensus in 2014. I believe that the college football and basketball championships (only) should be added to ITN/R, but obviously there isn't consensus for that (yet?). This "professional vs. amateur" distinction is a false one, and below it's pointed out that some of these European sports events we post that I know nothing about are amateur. Interesting. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:29, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support posting the national championship (though I'm not sure the playoff aspect makes it any more significant than it normally is). College football is a major sport in the United States in terms of news coverage, viewership, and financial significance. Lots of things are listed at WP:ITNSPORTS that are specific to one country, so saying this shouldn't be posted because it is only of interest to people in the US comes off as anti-American bias (though I'm not sure if all the things listed at WP:ITNSPORTS are actually posted every year). The arguments that it shouldn't be posted because the athletes are amateurs and aren't as good as NFL players is ridiculous, as the skill level of the participants isn't what makes a sporting event notable, but rather the degree of interest shown to it. Calathan (talk) 16:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Support. We post The Boat Race, a single-country collegiate sporting event due to its extensive coverage and notability(it even made ITNR). Single-country objections are not valid, as stated at the top of this page, anyway. Tens of millions follow collegiate football (as pointed out, more than the World Series and other events that are posted) as the nominator has written extensively about on this page. Given its coverage I think it merits posting. 331dot (talk) 16:17, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the Boat Race is far from a single-country sporting event, it usually has rowers from around the world involved, there's a strong American background to the event as well, many Yale and Harvard rowers have taken part. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:22, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the clarification, but it is still fundamentally two UK college teams rowing against each other. I'm sure there are non-American college football players. 331dot (talk) 16:25, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, just to clarify your point, it's the second and third oldest universities in the world racing against each other, having done so since 1829, and is broadcast in around 160 countries. Not sure the college football playoff has that notability or reach. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You got it all wrong. The Premier League is the biggest competition in exclusively in England (except for a few Welsh clubs) of any sport, while the FA Cup is second. In that regard, both the biggest two events are posted. We also used to post the biggest two sporting events in an island less than the size of London but finally ITNR got rid of one of them (LOL). –HTD16:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A shame you've allowed yourself to be cowed by Howard here. The FA Cup is the oldest association football cup competition in the world and is watched worldwide because soccer is a worldwide sport. We also used to post the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship, but as Donald states, Ireland is a small country so therefore why should we post items relating to it? Why should we post minority items of interest, like amateur college "football" which is of interest to one tenth of one thirtieth of the globe? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:17, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, good point, even though I doubt that many Americans like me know what the FA Cup is, much less watch it, but Americans are weird when it comes to sports. Neutral. (I flip-flop on discussions more than any other person on WP, I believe.) --AmaryllisGardenertalk19:23, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I know all of you are probably tired of me changing my !vote, but I'm now going to Oppose, as after more commentary I believe that this is an amateur sport event that is not worthy of mention at ITN. --AmaryllisGardenertalk00:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support if updated and relevance made clear in the article The fact that it is >100 years ago since this happened, and the play offs selection group is that autoritive; in combination with the large (US) audiences is enough for me. I am always afraid for US bias, but in this specific year it seems notable. However, the article seems in horrible shape and almost a template-produced article, with some headings with only a "main"-link and nothing else. Hardly any text about the relevance; and still using future tense. L.tak (talk) 16:34, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: "Second most watched [sic] annual US sports final" says it all. By all means we should post the first, but anything more smacks of systematic bias to me I regret. Plus the nom, if I can understand correctly, seems more concerned with political points which, to me at least, seem pretty irrelevant. —Brigade Piron (talk) 16:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are no finals of US sports that are not annual. But I didn't feel like doing an analysis of Olympic events and college football finals. Those are the only sports besides the National Football League that could possibly beat some or all college football finals, and only on the Olympics. And I've clarified the template to second-most watched annual sports final in the US. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:38, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support if the hook is modified, as the hook right now reads a bit weird, and it makes it seem like there was some sort of conspiracy that prevented playoffs from occurring for a number of years. We can work out the metrics of the viewership later, as these claims are premature in my opinion. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 16:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Though the BusinessWeek article on this thread says that record viewership numbers are all but certain as semifinal 2 broke the all-time record for viewership of a cable program held by semifinal 1 which surpassed a college football final before that). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:52, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The World Junior Hockey Championship is massive in Canada, but we don't post as it does not represent the highest level of the sport. I see no difference between that and American college football. Additionally, I do not believe we post the winner of the NCAA basketball championship either. Resolute16:46, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The World Junior Hockey Championship (links are your friends) is an under-twenty competition. In other words, teams that might include high school seniors who have been held back a year, not but not college-level or -age teams. Juvenile sports has always been deprecated here. μηδείς (talk) 19:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, thank god we have you here to educate us hockey fans about how hockey works. Gee whiz, Medeis. What would Wikipedia ever do without you? Now, in as much as you don't like it, the comparison is still valid. The WJHC's are of disproportionate interest to one country (though the hockey tournament would have greater international interest, naturally, as an international tournament), is amateur in a sport with pro levels, and does not represent the top tier of the sport. Three good reasons not to post the WJHC champion. Also three good reasons not to post the NCAA championship. The fourth reason is that we haven't posted the NCAA champion in the past, and the fact that they changed the playoff format this year doesn't necessitate a change in that regard. Resolute16:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, I don't think the World Junior Hockey Championship is on the same level in terms of scope and popularity as the college football national championship. That we haven't posted the BCS championship in the past is a mistake, in my opinion, and not a reason not to post this. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Popularity in terms of what? On an absolute scale, perhaps. But relatively? Looks like the NCAA game managed an 18.5 overnight rating, which I believe translates to about 21.5 million viewers. The WJHC gold medal game was watched by 7.1 million Canadians. Given we have 1/10th the population, I would argue that the WJHC is more popular in Canada than the NCAA football championship is in the US. Never mind the fact that about 40% of Slovakia's population watched their medal around games, etc. Resolute19:52, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
7.1 million when Canada played, [tt_news=8371&cHash=825d9dab9239ac300abbb7a34e5432f8 1 million] when Canada lost last year. The numbers for the Nordic countries are far more impressive, though. But that's a "national team" tournament where a country has, uh, "one" team. This College Football Playoff isn't like that; of course, the Super Bowl is an entirely different beast. –HTD20:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hopeless, unfortunately even though the USA is the third most populated country in the world, even though the USA makes up the largest block of readers for the EN wiki, even though a number of European soccer stories (but no South American, so much for the worlds most popular sport, I guess it's the oldworlds most popular sport) are on ITN/R, even though lesser interest amateur "sports" like "The Boat Race" are on ITN/R, even though anyone who bothers to scratch even slightly below the surface will realize that NCAA sports in the USA are amateur in name only, even though I doubt there is widespread international interest in Gaelic Football or the Heineken Cup (two countries in Europe each with a population less than California have a kick-off and you get to label it international) it's impossible to nominate a story originating in the USA without overwhelming and unsubstantiated claims of US-centrism, US-bias, and of "no-one outside the USA cares", despite the fact that rule number 2 for ITN/C clearly states "[do not] complain about an event only relating to a single country". I don't watch football, but this was a major story in the USA, not just because of the sports contest but because of a change in a system so broken that the President of the United States took time out of authorizing drone strikes to comment on it. It's utterly absurd the level of vitriol seemingly reserved for the United States. I guess we have to save room for more stories about Lionel Messi!! --12.216.96.52 (talk) 17:17, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support if this is actually for a national title (even if amateur), by analogy with the Boat Race. But the blurb should specify what title has been won, rather than focussing on trivia relating to the format. If this is just a regular match with some technical differences, then oppose. AlexTiefling (talk) 18:16, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed the title will be won by winning the game and not by polls/computer programs, this is certainly not a regular match. And the format is a big deal in the US causing record viewership, as is the game and winner. The game is always a big deal. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support college football is hugely popular in the US, with the major networks showing many hours of broadcast play each weekend. A once-a-year mention is certainly justified if we compare it to the viewership of other sports that get listed. μηδείς (talk) 18:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment regardless of this perennial jingo-fest, the blurb needs serious work. No-one outside the microcosm of US college football could care less or worse, even understands the significance of not having playoffs. Indeed, in many European countries, playoffs are something different from what I assume is meant here. The nomination also seems to be swaying between the significance being the playoffs or just the result itself. Which is it? Oh, and the article sucks, which, despite all the "support", is an overriding factor. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:20, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an explanation for the "Which is it" question. The Americans don't need a special justification to post this yearly. But American support is not enough. For the Commonwealth/ESL people in the audience, will this be enough to convince you to support this even once? Maybe not. Also little updating will occur until the game actually happens. A look at the history of the 2014 game should give an idea of when the more prominent 2015 article will be up to snuff. It likely will be good first few hours of Jan 14 UTC or as early as mid-morning Jan 13 UTC. (People have careers tomorrow) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The significance of playoffs is that in 1998 they started this stupid system and it only took till 2003 for there to be three possible best teams and only two spots that can lead to the final (i.e. the final itself). And what was perceived as unfair lobbying in 2004. At least now there will be a two-level tournament. The systems before the 1998 one were even worse. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:44, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but none of that really addresses why this is actually "in the news". It's a super-minor nuance of college football that affects just about nobody. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let's use money. The outright crappy Bowl Championship Series had a revenue of US$202 million in 2012. If you'd compare that to real professional leagues, that's quite low, just below France's Ligue 2. But consider this: in 2013, the BCS had five games. That's US$40 million per game. The Premier League had a revenue of 3,200 million euros at 380 games played, or 8.4 million euros per game. If you're looking at per game averages, the BCS was a lot more profitable than the Premier League, despite the latter's international clout. Don't get me started on the Boat Race. –HTD20:00, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked at the Business Week article, I would only be surprised if more than $250 million of the $600 million/year for 7 games ESPN paid for TV rights went to this one game. Now that is money. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:30, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Compared to your made up criteria out of thin air ("THESE SCHOOLS ARE OLD AND THEY LOVE ROWING!"), this is a start! At least this has something to stand on. All of this money talk means that there's some "interest" in this game. After all, if people would pay to see (this is on cable), that's some interest. –HTD20:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, I just said that there's some mad interest to this game. The "SHOUTING" part was the only part that didn't focus on interest, which you apparently focused upon. Sorry if you were distracted on what should you had focused upon. –HTD20:20, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Listen, you and I have had this debate (and if I remember correctly, it was far too boring to continue, you made up some stats, you challenged the sourced refs I gave you, etc etc). Just support this nomination, and I'll oppose it and we can move on to do better things. Deal? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that's a first time anyone here has explicitly admitted they'd oppose a blurb no matter what in the name of "made up criteria" and against "made up stats". Congratulations. –HTD20:34, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea what you think you're trying to say. I have said no such thing. I oppose the blurb as it is irrelevant and not ITN-worthy. The reference to made up stats is simply to your own proclivity to try to prove straw man arguments using your own research. I have no more time to deal with your particular line of "argument". Feel free, as you always require, to have the last word. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Am I following this correctly, that this is a new structure for the sport a sport called football that doesn't actually involve one's feet touching the ball? Or is it a structure that's existed for 146 years but this is the first time it's been needed? I'd support the former, because rule changes in major sports are rare. The latter ... meh. In general, I always thought we used to post too much domestic sport (of whatever national origin). I don't know if that's still the case, I've been less active here until relatively recently, but as a general rule I think we should normally post major international tournaments but typically not domestic tournaments. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it is the former. There have been many systems since the 19th century (some of them really informal & unofficial) but none of them have been good. How about a tournament? No one ever had that in the rules before. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note that AFAIK, the NCAA still won't certify the College Football Playoff champions as "NCAA champions". –HTD20:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So... why isn't rugby football called handegg? Same egg-shaped football, both are called football, and both use hands to propel the ball. (LOL) –HTD20:00, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Helpful, really helpful. (In actuality, a rugby ball is much larger than an American football, and doesn't have laces to make holding it so much simpler....) The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Look, let's just close this discussion. This has escalated into absolutely nothing productive. The snipefest above is almost a decent self-made argument for not posting sports at all on ITN.--WaltCip (talk) 20:57, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure who you're referring to here, I simply stated facts about the size and construction of the ball in question. I imagine your comment must be aimed elsewhere, or else it makes no sense at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose obviously. I have trouble believing this is a serious nomination? It's a joke, right? Or is somebody trying to make some point? Fgf10 (talk) 22:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay I admit I was trying to make a good story without too much undue weight but I didn't make anything up. This is still a more popular sporting event here than the pro baseball finals, pro basketball finals, pro hockey finals, FIFA World Cup, golf, tennis, motorsport.. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:57, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well it seems pretty clear. a) A sport that has essentially zero global impact and b) Nowhere near the top level of that sport, an amateur university competition. Obvious! Fgf10 (talk) 07:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Sports events don't have inherent significance; their significance is cultural. So what that this is a university event? Who cares that it is nominally amateur? It is still an event with huge cultural significance and massive public interest in the US. It may seem strange to us that they care so much about a university tournament, but that's irrelevant. The fact that it is mainly of interest in one country is not disqualifying - we post the Gaelic football championship, which is ITN/R, despite it only being of much interest in Ireland. We do it because of its cultural significance and popularity in that country, and we should post this for the same reason. And frankly this is far more culturally significant and popular that the Boat Race, the one university sporting event that is on ITN/R - that certainly doesn't generate the same level of passion and interest that this does. Neljack (talk) 23:03, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So If I've read the above correctly, the rationale for posting this is that it's the tournament-decider for a major sports league in the United States. Is that right? And all the stuff about history and format changes is totally irrelevant to the nomination. Am I right? Essentially, the argument is that this final should be ITN/R and there's nothing that makes this year's event more special than other years', except that it's just been introduced. Is that right? If so, then (a) you've done a terrible job of promoting your nomination. Sorry, but it's true. All the trivia has completely put people off. (b) the comparisons to other sports are not very helpful. Eg. the Boat Race has an estimated audience that exceeds the population of the United States and covers more than 3/4 of the nations on Earth, and the claim above that it is more popular than the FIFA World Cup is just ludicrous. So, you're no doing yourself any favours here, either. (c) I'd be persuaded to change my opinion to a weak support; sorry that all the noise about irrelevant trivia above means it will come too late to make a difference. GoldenRing (talk) 23:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Billion Dollar Sport the net revenue of the top-10 college football programs for 2013 in the US was over $500,000,000.00. That's only the top 10 schools, and only the net, not the gross. Source quoting US Dept of Ed. μηδείς (talk) 23:34, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
comment . I still don't understand what this nomination is about. Is it about there being national champions in a sport for the first time? = 1st rationally decided ones, yes Is it about rule changes in a sport? = yes Is it about Barrak Obama's support for a sport? = no Is it about this being the 146th (or whatever) season ending game? = yes Is it about how much money has been paid for a sporting event? = shows significance Is it about TV rights? Is it about computer programs? = twas part of the old method Is it about American cultural significance? = yes Is it about something else? The blurb (as TRM has pointed out several times) is basically incomprehensible to someone who doesn't follow the sport, and this discussion doesn't help me understand it either. If you want this posted on ITN you need to be able to explain, clearly and concisely, to people who don't understand the sport why it is significant. I still don't even know whether this is the final match = yes (or simply the deciding match) in a league, the top two teams in a league playing each other again = no, the last match of a knock-out competition = yes, the best two teams in a league (as determined by something other than match results) playing each other = that's the old way, the top teams from different leagues playing each other = no, or something else? Whether this is or is not suitable for ITN, this discussion should be held up as an example of how not to promote a nomination. Thryduulf (talk) 01:29, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose- I'm an American watching this as I write and I don't understand why others are so vehement this be posted. The entire nom comment reads like a very POINTy agenda or, more likely, mocking the supporters of this nomination. This is an amateur level league which purely exists as a feeder league into the actual professional league, the NFL. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 03:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. One-country competitions really don't deserve to be featured here unless they're really big-name events, e.g. the Super Bowl or the NBA Finals. Do we generally feature college football or basketball champions? WP:ITNR tells me no, since they don't expect to get more than one story annually for American football and no more than three in basketball. The method of deciding the champion has changed: so what? It's not more significant in the grand scheme of things, especially since it's a sport almost completely unknown in most countries. Nyttend (talk) 06:24, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
We post many single-country events; As it states above, "Please do not oppose an item because it is not on ITNR" and "Please do not complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive". 331dot (talk) 09:44, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For one thing, I'm making a logical argument, not a simple complaint or misusing something written elsewhere on this page. For another, please read what I said: I used ITN/R as evidence that we haven't generally featured NCAA football (or basketball) champions. I'm just expanding the "not a particularly significant event" by giving background research into what we've done before with comparable events. The burden is on you to justify why we need to treat this championship differently, just because it was achieved through a different process. Nyttend (talk) 12:39, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support with a better update. FWIW, I'm Australian. College football is the equal of any the four US major leagues by just about every measure except player salaries. The amateur status of the competition does not detract from its massive popularity and economic impact. The playoff, as the competition's designated pinnacle event, should be posted, as with other sporting leagues and knock-out tournaments.. IgnorantArmies(talk)08:46, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You cannot simply recall on the guideline that we don't accept the argument of opposing a nomination relating a single country and its economic impact to throw away its status as an amateur sport. The nomination itself reveals a sport success but not records in all the side effects derived from it. What I want to see here is a sport success that is worth hearing, not a blown commercial story woven within the pride of the people from a single country. Compare with the other stories already appearing on the main page: we don't have Charlie Hebdo shooting because one of its side effects was the effects on the financial markets or the fear among the journalists in other satirical magazines around the world.--Droneanddrone (talk) 10:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
So I assume you oppose posting The Boat Race, an amateur sporting event(which is ITNR)? For an "amateur" sporting event, college football generated hundreds of millions of dollars a year and is followed by tens of millions(with some collegiate stadiums like Michigan Stadium larger than professional team stadiums). This is no ordinary amateur sport- but I thank you for posting an actual argument. 331dot (talk) 10:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
reiterate my previous oppose. Having actually found some articles that explain what has happened here, this is not actually a very significant change. Previously two teams were selected as the best (by a computer using statistics afaict) and played off against each other in a final. Now, four teams are selected as the best (by a committee of 13 people using criteria I haven't been able to find) and play off against each other in two semi-finals and a final. It still isn't sanctioned as official by the relevant governing body. If this was a league or cup final in the sense used by soccer, rugby union, cricket, etc, etc, then I might be convinced. Thryduulf (talk) 12:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Saying it "isn't sanctioned as official" is a complete misunderstanding. The best comparison I can think of is the golf majors, where tournaments like the Masters and the U.S. Open aren't run by the PGA of America, but are official events in every sense, and more prestigious than a normal PGA tournament. Likewise, in college football the bowl games are run by organizations other than the NCAA, but are more prestigious than the regular-season games. The bowl games, including the national championship, are official games in every sense (e.g., they count for career statistics, follow all NCAA rules, players or teams ruled ineligible by the NCAA can't play, etc.). The NCAA specifically doesn't run a championship because the teams can play in the bowl games, and instead designates which teams are eligible for bowl games (by classifying them in the Football Bowl Subdivision, the top half of the top division of college football). Also, really, the regular season games aren't run by the NCAA either, but by the conferences . . . the NCAA just sets the rules so that everyone is playing by the same rules. Each conference determines its own champion, and then the bowl games invite teams (with the more prestigious bowls getting first pick of the teams to invite, and with most bowls having an agreement with certain conferences to always invite a team from that conference). You could think of the bowls as a little like the Champions League in soccer, and the conferences as a little like the various European soccer leagues, except that in college football you normally play 4 games outside your own conference in the regular season (out of 12 games, i.e., 8 are within the conference), and the bowl games are only single games, not a tournament. Since the 1990s, the top bowls have had a system in place to try to match up the top two teams, so as to determine one champion. Starting this year, they decided to have the top 4 teams play in two of the top bowl games, then have the winners play in the national championship game, when before that they just put two teams directly into the national championship game. I agree that this isn't really a significant change that makes this year's championship game any more significant than the ones in previous years. But it is actually a championship, run by the agreement of the conferences and the top bowl game committees, with the sanction of the NCAA. Calathan (talk) 18:17, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is analogous to a "league or cup final in the sense used by soccer, rugby union, cricket, etc", only that instead of coefficients which are based mostly from past seasons' results, the "committee" uses "this season's results" plus some other metric that they could think of. Granted, this is subjective, but you could argue the same for UEFA coefficients: France is 11 points away from Italy's coefficient, but they both get 3 Champions League berths, but Russia only gets 2, despite being just 2 points away from France. Try doing that in the college football system, and it could produce some bad results if a conference emerges to have a crappy season, but still has many berths due to impressive results in the previous seasons. American college football players can only play for a maximum of four years, so roster turnout is liquid; a best player may leave just as their "coefficient points" were racked up, only to lose impressively because they now suck. –HTD18:33, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're making the argument against the nomination, here. If its significance is based on such arcana as this, it's ITN material. I've changed my !vote above accordingly. GoldenRing (talk) 01:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Several good reasons have been given. Theres some bad arguments on both sides. eg the claim we dont post amateur sports is certainly false.--Johnsemlak (talk) 13:26, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support As a keen observer of events here, I have decided to create an account just to support this nomination for In The News. I can clearly see the level of dedication, support, media interest and money that is bequeathed to this particular sports tournament. Whether you don't "get it" seems hardly relevant to the importance of the story at hand. And I don't watch American Football save for the Super Bowl... --Smirking Cat (talk) 13:37, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I usually do not support these "american national sports articles" but this one is a record. Seems notable beyond the usual "results noms",--BabbaQ (talk) 19:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It might help your cause if the condescending bullshit took a break for a while. But if all most of you have is "wahhhhhh it's more important than the Boat Race waaaaaah" perhaps there's no point in discussing it. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is a legitimate point. Twice as many people watched last night's college football championship than watch the boat race. That speaks volumes as far as importance goes. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you do. And next time you find the ITN criteria citing that if A is posted, B must be posted, and next time you find the criterion which says TV viewership in a single country means "importance", let us know. By the way, let me know how you counted viewers outside the U.S. for this event, that would be fascinating.... The Rambling Man (talk) 22:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In spite of nearly overwhelming evidence to the contrary, it seems that you're unwilling to recognize that this is a highly nationally significant event. Or did it not occur to you that ITN isn't just about international stories? Ridiculous.--WaltCip (talk) 23:07, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK boys lets all calm down. This interaction leads nowhere and is filled with users who is not interested in discussing but more so arguing so just step back.. non of you decides what others should think anyway.--BabbaQ (talk) 00:42, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But especially to user The Rambling Man, come one that kind of language and that kind of provoking behavior isnt that a little beneath you. Is it really necessary to take everything so seriously. Take a deep breath and calm down.--BabbaQ (talk) 00:45, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Obviously this event isn't as big as the Super Bowl, and obviously it's below professional level, but that doesn't mean it's not significant enough to be posted. The amount of coverage/press leading up to, during, and after the game is quite large. As shown above, nearly double the amount of people watched this event than the Boat Race. This event is also covered in Cuba, Mexico, Canada, Taiwan, Mexico again, France, Switzerland, Switzerland again, France again, Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Italy again, among many other countries, so it's not just the US who cares about this event. Andise1 (talk) 00:08, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose,Neither the rule-change or the result of the playoff created in the rule-change has international resonance. Arguments about how much money it made are grasping at straws. APL (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I believe responding to about every single oppose vote is grasping at air between the straws. C'mon, each person can have their own opinion, and then we can carry on as usual, right? :) --AmaryllisGardenertalk01:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please can this be closed. I don't think that this is going to come to a consensus and its getting acrimonious now. I have commented above but do not wish this comment to be associated with one side of the argument. 5.179.100.129 (talk) 02:24, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I disagree with the above closing and its rationale; I'm not sure how most of the oppose arguments are not WP:IDONTLIKEIT and once you remove those I think the consensus is pretty clear. 331dot (talk) 15:02, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The supports are not ILIKEIT. They are rational arguments related to its significance. Most(not all) opposes are something like "this is amateur level and has no following or interest outside of US", the latter of which is not true(and it is not a valid argument as stated on this page); while it is 'amateur' it generates hundreds of millions of dollars in cash and is a significant cultural influence. 331dot (talk) 15:07, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Further, other arguments are "I don't understand it" which is a reason to read the article or seek an explanation, not a reason to oppose. 331dot (talk) 15:13, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
More female suicide bombers, this time two, and again each believed to be around 10 years old, kill themselves and three others at a market in the northeastern city of Potiskum, Nigeria. (Reuters via News24)
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: It seems that Croatia will get its first female president. The election article needs second round results and reactions but these will be coming in a couple of hours. Grabar-Kitarović's article is not updated yet. Picture is available as well. --Tone18:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment We will definitely have to wait for some more time. It seems that the result is tighter than the exit polls predicted so it will take time to count for sure. Josipović may still win. There's a photo of him available as well. --Tone19:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose never understood the purpose of a premature ITN/R posting, but I guess if it draws in decent editors to fix up poor articles, so much the better. In this case, the article isn't fit to describe the result of the election. Primarily because we don't know what the result of the election is. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:11, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support when updated. The results are now in and the incumbent has been defeated by less than 1%. I've added a blurb to this nomination to reflect this, but it might need trimming. The main election article still needs work (some parts are still in the future tense for example) so it isn't ready yet, I haven't look to see what state the new president's article is in. Thryduulf (talk) 01:39, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Article:January 2015 Marches Républicaines (talk·history·tag) Blurb: Around 3 million people march to honor victims of Paris attack. (Post) Alternative blurb: Dozens of world leaders and over 3 million people march in honour of the victims of the Charlie Hebdo shooting. Alternative blurb II: 40 world leaders and over 3 million people march in honour of the victims of the Charlie Hebdo shooting. Alternative blurb III: Three million people, including dozens of world leaders, march in France following the Charlie Hebdo shooting. News source(s):AP, BBC Credits:
Nominator's comments: French media estimate up to 3 million are taking part, more than the numbers who took to Paris streets when the Allies liberated the city from the Nazis in World War II. EugεnS¡m¡on(14) ®18:38, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support — Narrative text of January 2015 Marches Républicaines (not including lists) seems thin & sketchy, so yes: Support an updated merged blurb that would link to Charlie Hebdo shooting. The long lists should be in footnotes, IMO, while the text should mention the most prominent official reps from abroad, such as Merkel, Cameron and Lavrov. Sca (talk) 22:22, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Dozens of world leaders and over 3 million Frenchmen march to protest recent terrorist attacks. With a free image. The rally honored, but was not primarily to honor the dead. μηδείς (talk) 22:44, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support but all of the proposed blurbs raise unnecessary ENGVAR issues. And the marchers weren't all French or men. I'm not sure we should try to ascribe an exact motive for the march, since its difficult to read so many minds, but in formal terms it was in support of French national values, rather than against the terrorist attacks (which, to be plain about it, would be a pretty pointless reason for marching). Formerip (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Do you (pl.) have a source that suggests these millions were out protesting anything except the recent terrorist attacks? If so, the other cause could be included. Otherwise, lets stick to what the sources are saying. μηδείς (talk) 23:55, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't actually seen any sourcing saying that it was specifically a protest against the terrorist attacks (although I suppose you can probably find sourcing for just about anything nowadays). But officially, according to François Holland, the march was intended to support the values of "democracy, freedom and pluralism". Formerip (talk) 00:11, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest caution re crowd estimates. I doubt whether 3 million people ever have gathered at one location anywhere, for anything. Sca (talk) 01:32, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
None of the blurbs say 3 million in one place and even if they said 300,000 in one place we would post this. The delay is unconscionable. 01:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
The target article has a maintenance tag that needs to be fixed before posting. Additionally, are we replacing the existing Charlie Hebdo blurb, or are we going to have two blurbs? JehochmanTalk16:19, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While I support posting an update to reflect the marches, I am confused why we have a separate article for this. This should be in the response section as part of the shootings, with some of the details trimmed out (We don't need a list of major people that participated, for example). --MASEM (t) 16:34, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Her death has been covered by media worldwide and she has been featured in several notable films. Icon status. --BabbaQ (talk) 11:34, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Iconic actress of that period of Hollywood, appeared in a scene described by the BBC as "one of cinema's most iconic scenes". Miyagawa (talk) 11:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose article has a few issues, an early {{cn}}, raw URLs, a "partial filmography" without inclusion criteria and redlinked films without citation, but there's no doubting her suitability for RD. If any of the supporters would care to fix the minor article issues, we have a green light to post. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed some of the unsupported material. Someone can check if more work is needed; if not I'd suggest this is ready. μηδείς (talk) 00:04, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your work on the article. Do whatever is necessary to get rid of the maintenance template and then that one can be posted also. JehochmanTalk16:56, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Posted, I don't know what pained surprise means, and the oppose above doesn't state a valid reason, per WP:OTHERSTUFF. If one decision is wrong, given the benefit of the doubt, that doesn't mean we should continue to make wrong decisions for the sake of consistency. JehochmanTalk16:22, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If your referring to my post I don't think my oppose was invalid- I referred to the lack of major awards and limited notable roles. I don't see that much convincing the the supports frankly. That said I think the consensus is to post, though more opinions would be helpful.--Johnsemlak (talk) 01:14, 13 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A shooting spree in Moscow, Idaho, U.S., leaves three dead and one injured. After a high-speed chase on Highway 195 ten miles away in the neighboring state of Washington, Pullman police arrest the suspect, John Lee. (AP)
A mass poisoning at a funeral in Mozambique involves beer that was deliberately contaminated with crocodile bile leaving at least 56 dead and 146 hospitalized. (FOX8LIVE)
The Golden Gate Bridge Highway and Transportation District temporarily closes the Golden Gate Bridge until Monday to install a $30 million moveable barrier between opposite traffic flows. (SF Gate)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose - He was a Pulitzer nom, had a book that won the National Book Award, but I am not seeing the proof of him being very important or influential in his field, beyond those two points. Challenger l (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak Support for RD, but the article needs a bit more referencing on some of the non-obvious statements before posting (2-3 at most). The director's films winning a few film festival awards nudges it in the right direction for RD, but I'm also a bit worried that that's all we can say towards his reputation. --MASEM (t) 15:56, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support article goes some way to demonstrating he was top of the field, but the article itself is weak, barely above stub level. Not sure about "Selected filmography" either, selected on what criteria? Is it therefore incomplete? And what references the red-lined movies? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:28, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. I looked at the "About us" page and saw some reasonable contributors but there seems to be no editorial overview of the content, has it been used in other reliable sources as a reference? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What's the best source for film directors? No-one will dispute the facts about any of these films, and I'm sure it.wiki would not get them wrong. It's just a matter of satisfying the policy on sources. I've seen RD articles posted with a lot less, I must say. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:27, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know (but using it.wiki as an example of what to do is probably not your finest hour). Please remember that I've have actually weakly supported this nomination, it's just the article could use a serious polish (not a polish before you ask), which you've done, but then you've now got a bunch of unsourced statements. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm really not sure what other language wiki I'd use to get material on Rosi. Their article looks reasonably good and well supported. I wasn't really after a Navy SEAL medal, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not quite so Sisyphian, ironically if you'd just have made a good fist of citing what was there to start with it'd probably be on the main page already. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:33, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The article has been hugely updated, Rosi's awards that are cited in blue-linked articles don't really need separate citations (we'd have 100 instead of the current 25 sources) when the main article covers them, and the movies themselves are primary sources when he is credited in them, no need for citations in those cases. So I have removed the page-level tag,requested any desired CN's be added directly on the talk page, and marked this as ready. μηδείς (talk) 02:41, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The two suspect brothers take a hostage at a sign printing company, Création Tendance Découverte, in the French town of Dammartin-en-Goële. (AAP via SBS)
The standoff ends with the two brothers dead and the hostage released. (CNBC)(BBC)(CNN)
The concurrent standoff ends with Coulibaly dead as well as four hostages. Four additional hostages and two police officers require hospitalization. Boumeddiene remains at large. (MSNBC)
Refugees flee Nigeria's Borno State following the Boko Haram massacre in the town of Baga. 7,300 flee to neighbouring Chad while over 1,000 are trapped on the island of Kangala in Lake Chad. Nigeria's army vows to recapture the town, while Niger and Chad withdraw their forces from a transnational force tasked with combating militants. (UNHCR)(NPR via BBC)
A 193-vehicle pileup along a snowy Interstate 94 highway in Kalamazoo County, Michigan leaves one motorist dead and 20 injured. A fire among the vehicles which includes a chemical tanker and a truck loaded with fireworks further compounds the disaster. The debris and fire closes the expressway for over 14 hours. Exploding fireworks hit rescue workers injuring an additional three. (ABC News)(CNN)
In Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, blogger Raif Badawi receives 50 lashes for "insulting Islam". This first punishment is part of a sentence of ten years' imprisonment and 1,000 lashes. He will receive 50 lashes a week for 19 more weeks. (Gulf News)(Guardian)
Nominator's comments: Reported worldwide, another injustice for free speech. Award winning person. Feel free to change the blurb or suggest other blurbs. --BabbaQ (talk) 13:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Altblurb proposed and support. The Saudis have a habit of carrying out such sentences when the world is preoccupied by other things, like Charlie Hebdo. Doesn't mean it is less notable, and some believe he won't survive this. Amnesty among others condemned the incident. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 04:03, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Let's confirm if they've been taken alive or not and if there were any other casualities, but I do agree that an update once we've got confirmation would be appropriate. --MASEM (t) 16:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
[42] I think the 12 civilians were from the original shooting; while there may have been injuries to the hostages in this latest situation, all the hostages sound like the they were safely rescued. --MASEM (t) 16:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
News feeds on twitter's going on that there might be some dead hostages, but I still think that the 12 civs are the number from the original shooting. --MASEM (t) 17:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest update rephrasing from French police free hostages from two buildings following to "French police free hostages and kill two suspects following...." (NYT headline: French Police Storm Hostage Sites, Killing Gunmen.") Sca (talk) 17:11, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose updating the blurb with this. The main story is the killing of the cartoonists. Hostage crises are quite usual business these days. Furthermore, it appears that not one hostage was harmed during the standoff. The solidarity protests are more ITN-worthy in my opinion. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:11, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At two hostages were killed, and some were injured. When we contrast this to the Boston Marathon bombing at ITN, we did update when the surviving suspect was captured after a manhunt, so this is of the same order. --MASEM (t) 17:14, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I could have opposed updating the Boston Marathon bombing as well. Sorry, but I am not convinced. The domestic and international reactions to the attack (street demonstrations, social media campaigns, etc) have dominated the news for over two days and appear to be a lot more notable than this minor incident. Fitzcarmalan (talk) 17:23, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It was the GIGN, in the case of the siege to the north of Paris, with police support. I think "police" is probably fine as a cultural translation, though. Enough people probably know what a "gendarme", so maybe that would be OK, but I think "soldiers" would be misleading. Formerip (talk) 18:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment with the other events (i.e. the police officer shot, the kosher shop hostage scenario etc), I'd say things have moved on past this suggested update. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:30, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What about the informal rallies across France on Saturday, 700,000 strong: [43] and the official rally today which will be attended by 40 world leaders: [44]? This is a huge event. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:41, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest posting as soon as possible.This is quite unprecedented, as the BBC have said. 40 world leaders linking arms and 1.5 million people on the streets. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
We should probably wait for something more concrete than a rumoured announcement at a press conference still to be held. Stephen11:16, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Castro would be notable enough for a blurb, but I'm seeing very little indication that he has died. As Stephen says, we should wait until we have something more concrete. 331dot (talk) 11:41, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While Castro is certainly blurb-worthy, rumours of his death seem to be just that at the moment. There is no official confirmation and his death is not being reported in major international news sources. Posting would be clearly inappropriate in these circumstances. Neljack (talk) 11:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose if it is adequately proven that he is dead, since although article is very good, but will need a tweak for tenses and death, reaction etc. And needless to say, oppose if he is still alive. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:23, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Obviously that he died is possible, but the timing of this rumour is suspicious -- 365 days exactly since the last time he was seen? (Trust Fox to pick up on that datum.) - Tenebris 198.91.170.20 (talk) 14:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah [45] that appears to be the confusion. Also seeing stories from Cuba denying Castro's death. This would clearly be a blurb if it truly was Cuba's Castro, but this appears to not be the case. --MASEM (t) 16:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support, while there's a couple (literally a couple) floating CN tags, out of 200+ refs, that's not a problem - article is in good shape for posting, and seems like the end of a rather heated election based on that article. --MASEM (t) 07:24, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support The result is not a huge surprise for those of us that follow Sri Lankan politics, in light of Rajapaska's falling popularity and the defections to the opposition, but what is more surprising is that he has conceded defeat and is not trying to hold on to power. Neljack (talk) 11:18, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment while the article is indeed in excellent shape overall, there is nothing on the results+reactions to them except for a table of the vote numbers. Thus, the article isn't really updated in the way that is normally expected for posting. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:03, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
One of the suspects in the killings, Hamyd Mourad, voluntarily surrenders to police in Charleville-Mézières while the other two suspects are still at large. (The New York Times)(CNN)
On the night of January 7 and morning of January 8, assailants throw grenades and fire guns at three mosques throughout France. (ForeignPolicy.com)
Boko Haram militants raze the entire town of Baga in north-east Nigeria. Bodies lay strewn on Baga's streets with as many as 2,000 people having been killed. Boko Haram now controls 70% of Borno State, which is the worst-affected by the insurgency. (BBC)
@Everymorning: So what does that mean? Most reports are now saying that the figure is firmly at least in the hundreds. It would be absolutely shameful if what was, either way, massacre of staggering proportions, was somehow overlooked because the victims weren't "young females" as Nergaal (I'm not sure if that was a joke or not) or some other dismissive reason. --Varavour (talk) 03:45, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't find any RSs that said that hundreds of people had died, but the Guardian says they killed "dozens" of people [47], although apparently 2,000 are "unaccounted for", according to NBC News. [48] So it seems like we aren't sure how many more than dozens of people have been killed. As the Washington Post says, "It’s not clear how many people were killed in Baga." [49]Everymorningtalk12:34, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb Saw this yesterday in the news headlines, rather outstanding terrorist act in terms of deaths and the article seems to be in a good shape. Brandmeistertalk09:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Gunmen attack the Paris office of the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, killing twelve people and injuring ten. Some witnesses report that the gunmen identified themselves as belonging to al-Qaeda in Yemen. A 2011 issue had depicted a cartoon of the Islamic prophet Muhammed. (BBC)
Oppose, I already have a DYK nom, which seems more appropriate, IMO. The antibiotic is nowhere near approval, so, currently it's just a neat fact (that it's the first antibiotic to be discovered in 25+ years, that is.) --AmaryllisGardenertalk 17:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)Support per others below and because of better blurb, now. --AmaryllisGardenertalk02:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support and, although I'm not exactly Walter White, the article looks ready to me. Note that the discovery was first reported on 7 Jan, though. I've added an altblurb, because the first blurb doesn't refer to any actual event, and it would be better if it did. Formerip (talk) 17:09, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've filled out the template a bit, am not sure if template works with the new IP6 format, and choice of Layzeeboi as updater is based on perusal, others might deserve credit. μηδείς (talk) 18:10, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Here are two possible blurbs (possibly too long?) that try to make what I understand is the key point:
The discovery of Teixobactin is announced—an antibiotic with a novel molecular scaffold, from bacteria grown in innovative culture cells exposed to its native soil
If your aim was to create unparsable blurbs, well done. I take it though, that amending the altblurb by adding the word "novel" would also work (?). Formerip (talk) 23:31, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not. Did you read the talk page? There have been novel antibiotic drugs representing four new classes released in the last 12 years! Both original blurbs now seem like nonsense, according to antibiotic#classes. But now I remember that another key point is that Teixobactin has been shown to provoke no resistance in its targets. Will adding that point make my blurbs more parsable? Over to you. Layzeeboi (talk) 23:45, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't remember Layzeeboi contributing here before, so I welcome his collaboration, and am not too worried about blurb-grammar. We can fix a blurb to fit his concerns. μηδείς (talk) 00:00, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Not only has a new antibiotic been discovered, but a new means of finding natural antibiotics in soil, and then culturing them, has been discovered. This discovery in biochemisty is of great importance, one that is quite rare. JehochmanTalk23:51, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I've unmarked as ready. The article appears ready, but we do not yet have consensus around a blurb that users agree to be accurate. Formerip (talk) 00:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Don't get me wrong—I agree that this important discovery certainly deserves a posting, for two good reasons mentioned above: the fertile technique, and the absence of provoked resistance. By the way, there was an (unbalanced regarding authorship) blurb on Jan 7 on Portal:Current events, but not Jan 11. I read Wikipedia:In_the_news to say that the blurb should be posted there first. Wrong? Anyway, I could find no guidance on how long the blurb can be. In this case, it's crucial, because this is a scientific subject not easily blurbable in concise truth. Layzeeboi (talk) 00:57, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is this blurb helpful?
Discovered using a promising new technique, Teixobactin is a potent antibiotic that provokes no detectable defence from pathogens resistant to available drugs.
Layzeeboi (talk) 01:25, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Re-marking ready--the blurb is up to the posting admin, and is not a barrier to other criteria.
As for the blurb, I'd just shorten it a little, since the blurb itself doesn't need to be all inclusive, just to suggest the topic clearly:
I am going to post this, even though I commented above, since the two original opposes have now indicated support, so this is essentially unanimous. If any admin feels otherwise, please feel free to modify the blurb or pull the item. Note that the ITN template is protected not to prevent edit warring, but as a security measure. Any reliable editor should be able to post an item marked ready, except that for technical reasons one has to have the admin bit to do it. JehochmanTalk16:13, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: He was the star of The Birds, and had leading roles in lots of other films (see his Wikipedia page). This seems to indicate he was highly regarded in his field, per RD criterion 2. --Everymorningtalk19:29, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Male lead of one of the most famous films ever made, certainly above any of the other current listed fresh RD noms. Or we'd blame an Australian for not being American. μηδείς (talk) 22:09, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: I know everyone's attention is on the Paris attack right now, and the bombing in Yemen gets overshadowed, but the Yemeni attack is actually far more deadly. --Zanhe (talk) 20:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's getting to the point, tragically, where we maybe should have a combined Islamicist (Jihadist may be a better word) ongoing ticker spot for Al Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, etc. I don't think the purpose of ITN is to highlight these attacks separately. μηδείς (talk) 20:22, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – These attacks in Yemen are a dime a dozen. Nothing particularly significant about this one, compared to the others, that warrants posting. It may be sad, but this is run-of-the-mill for Yemen at this point. RGloucester — ☎22:05, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support A significant attack that has got plenty of international media coverage. Hardly an everyday occurrence in Yemen, contrary to what is suggested above. Neljack (talk) 11:21, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Neljack. Hardly an everyday occurrence. --Rsrikanth05 13:21, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
In the past couple of months, we've had at least four nominations of similar attacks in Yemen. That's about as run-of-the-mill as it gets. RGloucester — ☎17:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Given that we see an article with a dozen deaths being nominated everyday, shouldn't all articles relating to people dying be classified as run of the mill? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 17:38, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Most of examples of the deaths of people are "run-of-the-mill". However, relevance is determined by context. Such an incident in Paris is extremely rare, and in fact, unprecedented. Such an incident in Yemen is near everyday occurrence. One must give WP:DUE weight, as appropriate. RGloucester — ☎17:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I would like to see a bit more extensive of an article before I would consider posting given the current level of support. Its not inadequate per se, but the support isn't very strong either, so one or the other needs to improve. --ThaddeusB (talk) 21:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No consensus to post an arbitrary price milestone, and a nominator who couldn't be bothered to form a proper nomination. Stephen02:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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The brent crude oil price dropped below the psychological barrier of $50 a barrel BBC. The drop in price of oil has had a huge impact on the global economy, from Russia's ruble, EU's deflation, USA's boom, but this story has not gotten featured at all at ITN. The drop has been steep and could have some larger impact in the future. Nergaal (talk) 23:43, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
US$50 is a rather meaningless benchmark, given the dollar is ruled by an inflationary central bank. Do we have any figure in the weight of gold,or something more meaningful than the US regime's monetary policy? μηδείς (talk) 23:51, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In general I agree about meaningless benchmarks, but in this particular case the price of a MASSIVE commodity has dropped by half and ITN didn't even consider this story. Excluding air and water, humans do not use another single resource on a larger scale. Nergaal (talk) 00:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this is an important story, but I think "why now in particular" does need some sort of answer. I don't agree that we should be looking for something "more meaningful" than dollars, though. For better or worse, if we are dealing in psychological barriers, only dollars count because the price of oil in Green Shield stamps is not generally something that most people ever think about. Formerip (talk) 00:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose an arbitrary limit based on the passing of a round number of any currency or standard. Perhaps if an actual record was set in some meaningful way (lowest inflation-adjusted price ever, for example), but passing an arbitrary numerical benchmark is no more meaningful. There's nothing particularly significant about the number 50 over numbers like 53 or 54.71 excepting our rather arbitrary attraction to round numbers. --Jayron3200:34, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree there is some story about oil's price at some point, but I dont' think the crossing-the-50-dollar-mark is it. It's a wait-and-see situation, I think. --MASEM (t) 01:04, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I think a time-based milestone would be better instead of dollar-based(lowest price in X years) if we were going to post an oil story. 331dot (talk) 01:07, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Support subject to decent expansion of the section in the Charlie Hebdo article, or a separate article meeting the usual requirements for ITN re referencing. Mjroots (talk) 11:44, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment there are reports of the use of a rocket-launcher, so perhaps we don't need to specify "shot to death" (which is also horribly grating in BrEng!) --Dweller (talk) 12:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Marking as ready, plenty of editors active, details sure to be added as info becomes available. Should be posted now, which will lead to further improvement. Mjroots (talk) 13:05, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support and saying that this is one of the rare cases that I agree with how speedily this was processed in terms of both the story and the consensus on this in the short period. --MASEM (t) 16:59, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, it was a good example of what can be achieved if people uphold the principles of reliable sourcing, half-decent writing and patience. Good work to all concerned (other than all the name change nonsense of course....). The Rambling Man (talk) 19:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment is it a newspaper or a magazine? Our article on Charlie Hebdo calls it a newspaper, while the article on the attack calls it a magazine. News sources differ in their description. DHN (talk) 07:55, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest to put the logo Je Suis Charlie which is now in Commons on the front page of wikipedia as illustration. Hektor (talk) 18:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly oppose that. It would (rightly) be seen as Wikipedia taking a political stance. Just because it's a stance with which our readers and editors will mostly agree, doesn't mean it isn't a violation of NPOV. Mogism (talk) 18:49, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. It's a public domain image associated with the story. In any case, I don't see where in NPOV policy it says that Wikipedia has to be equivocal about murder. Formerip (talk) 18:52, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose posting the logo itself. If there were an image of this logo in public(say at a memorial service or rally) that would be a different matter, but just posting the logo is a political stance. 331dot (talk) 18:56, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's beyond belief that people would consider this as a "political" stance, but there is such an image on Commons, just for info: Formerip (talk) 19:01, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not inconceivable that there would be people who, while opposing the attack, might disagree with what this publication did and would not feel like "Je suis Charlie". 331dot (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Formerip, why it is so strange to regard this as a political stance? Freedom of speech is a political value. Some people don't support it, or don't think it should extend to publishing material they consider religiously offensive. Some people think killing those responsible is a justifiable response to the publication of material they regard as insulting to their religious beliefs. These all sound like political stances to me. Neljack (talk) 21:54, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Freedom of speech is a trivial side-issue in the context of 12 people being murdered. People using hashtacks and so on are united in expressing shock and solidarity. It's not really political unless you think not sympathizing with the victims of a brutal and indefensible assassination can ever be a legitimate political position. I can see we're intent on misguided navel-gazing over this, but "neutrality" should really mean that if there's a usable, decent quality, policy-compliant image to go with the top story in the box, then we use it. Formerip (talk) 22:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we're here to make judgments on which political positions are "legitimate". That's what NPOV is all about. It's certainly a political position I strongly disagree with, but it's still a political position. Terrorism is political. Neljack (talk) 23:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What you're suggesting is that "neutral" can consist in positioning yourself halfway between here and batshit insane. Sorry, but I don't have any words with which to respond. Formerip (talk) 23:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Agree this would be taken a position on the matter which we should not without prior discussion (ala back during SOPA blackout). A picture of their building, or of people gathering to show their support, sure, but the logo alone would be inappropriate. --MASEM (t) 19:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support as an illustration, not as a position, political or otherwise. All the best: RichFarmbrough, 19:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC).
Most casual observers will see it as nothing but expressing support for it when posted on the main page. I'm also not sure what exactly it is 'illustrating' that can't be done with an image of gatherings of people where this logo might be seen. 331dot (talk) 19:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per others. Using the slogan on the main page would give the appearance of Wikipedia advocating a position. Even if I agree with that position. Resolute20:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At the very least, the slogan is not incidental to the protest in the image, but rather central. It's better than just using the slogan, but not by a great deal. Resolute20:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - the attack wasn't just against Charlie Hebdo, it was an attack on all forms of free speech, including Wikipedia (imvho). Mjroots (talk) 21:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support this is about the phrase, not the graphic that represents the phrase. And I think the global outrage is as well supported here as it was when Europeans declared we are all Americans after 9/11.
And it would have been equally inappropriate to post an image saying "we are all Americans" if ITN has existed in this form at the time of 9/11, μηδείς. There were plenty of people around the world who, if not supporting the attacks, felt they were a case of chickens coming home to roost. It would have been quite wrong for Wikipedia to take sides between these respective political positions. The same applies here. Neljack (talk) 22:04, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I closed this discussion per SNOW but undid it. I suppose the second image is worth discussion but the first message is entirely what Wikipedia is Not.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here is what I would consider to be a fair alternate image to be used for this story without having WP speak to sympathy of the event. It's a rally held in Brussels, it shows the Je Suis Charlie slogan, but gives the size/scope of the solidarity that people are showing for it. --MASEM (t) 23:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I would trim it to the right 1/2 or 2/3rd for ITN posting, but before I do that, I'd get opinions on inclusion of the crop. --MASEM (t) 23:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's a much poorer quality image, from a different country to the event and no more "neutral" compared to the one posted above. Formerip (talk) 23:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's actually much more neutral; it's showing that there's a worldwide response to this event. It's not showing "just" the logo (and the logo is small but visible in it), which would be seen as a sign of solidarity with the movement, and it's clearly not an image that could be seen as "posed" as the other image above. That said, that's an issue with our ITN image size, it's not going to show a lot of detail. --MASEM (t) 01:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all images proposed. The logo is incompatible with BLP, the second image (person with logo sign) is the best but it does look staged and the sole person featured does not have a notable connection with the story. The third image is too generic at the scale we'd use it and feels very much like "here's a tangentally related image because we have to have an image and this is the best we have" - we don't have to have an image so we only use ones that are directly relevant. Thryduulf (talk) 03:05, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"We" didn't do that at all. The Wikimedia Foundation did. If The Foundation want's to join the protest by putting a giant "Je Suis Charlie" banner across the top of every page, then more power to them. But that's not what we're discussing here. It's not our job to take a stand on behalf of The Wikimedia Foundation, in fact their rules say that we shouldn't. APL (talk) 16:32, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose any of these images. The first gives the direct impression that WP is not just reporting the campaign but supporting it; the campaign, after all, consists entirely in displaying this image/hashtag. If we were to ever display this image in this way, it would require a much bigger discussion than a debate at ITN/C. As for the others, while they do a better job at reporting the campaign, the campaign is not the story we're posting. It would be rather like posting an image of an AirAsia board meeting to illustrate the story about flight 8501, or a picture of the great pyramid to illustrate Khentakawess III. GoldenRing (talk) 03:21, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved this outside of the archive box, with μηδείς' permission, as it was an inappropriate change to an archived discussion. Please note that μηδείς has made clear elsewhere that she is registering protest at the closure, not attempting to reopen the debate. GoldenRing (talk) 01:48, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Medeis is right, this was a premature closure and I will reopen it, especially considering since an additional image was proposed later in the process. My apologies, SpencerT♦C19:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the "Je Suis Charlie" logo on WP:NPOV grounds, even though it's a POV I support. The other images don't look so good to me, so I don't think they're beneficial to post. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:22, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And my sincerest thanks to Spencer.
As for the picture, it is a free image that reflects worldwide reaction to the attacks. For there to be a POV issue as Mobushgu implies, there would either have to be some sort of competitor to the Je Suis Charlie Hebdo logo we were slighting, or, bizarrely, we'd have to take advocating the murder of inncoent journalists, policemen and Deli customers as a POV we need to balance with. A free I'm Charlie image seems perfect, and the image is still in the news today. μηδείς (talk) 19:40, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
To me, the POV issue doesn't have to do with advocating murder. It's about the free speech aspect, and there are clearly plenty of people opposing free speech as it concerns the prophet Mohammed. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:42, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there is some people have criticized that Charlie Hebdo, paraphrasing ,had this coming, in that they felt the comics were purposely anatagonist and were not surprised they were attacked, though obviously not in such a violent manner. As such, they cannot stand being that concept that "we" all support free speech/etc. And while here at WP and ITN, the intent of why we are posting the free logo image is clear (it is what is "in the news", etc.) a random person that may associate with the above critic, unaware of our approach to posting images on ITN, could take that as WP implicitly supporting the cause they dont agree with. WP has been clear in the past that if there is a cause that en.wiki or the Foundation has wanted to support, this is made with a very clear message to show this is not a happenstance that we are supporting it. We've been very careful that we don't use images that without sufficient context might appear to be soapboxing or the like. --MASEM (t) 19:46, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Still definitely oppose considering the events that have occurred today, including many others being killed that aren't Charlie. Tasteless to use a flash in the pan social media phenomenon where Je Suis Ahmed or Je Suis Franck or Je Suis Juif apply. This is no longer about a bunch of satirical cartoonists, it's about policemen, individual shoppers, Jews, Muslims etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At this point it might make sense to merge this free image with the update nom. There are two issues, reporting the facts, and whether there's a free image. I think there are both, but can understand there might be opposes to one or the other. μηδείς (talk) 22:06, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It is taking a political position. While it is not controversial to condemn the murder of satirists, it could be seen as an endorsement of the editorial position of Charlie Hebdo. TFD (talk) 05:22, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's being covered in the news as Je suis Charlie movement. Symbols are often used as background image for the story. It's not "taking a side" even though no one has suggested there are sides. Showing candles while covering a candlelight vigil is also not taking a side or a POV. --DHeyward (talk) 03:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Using the slogan straight out, or a photograph that's cropped so tightly that the slogan is actually big enough to read in thumbnail isn't providing a relevant news image, it's sloganeering. If the foundation wants to take a stand for free speech they could do that without ITN's help, but it's way beyond the purview of ITN to push slogans or to "show solidarity". APL (talk) 16:29, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The posted ITN story is about the actual shootings, not about the post-shooting movement that's been created because of it. CaptRik (talk) 17:00, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as the slogan has become somewhat disconnected from the specific news event and has been referring to free speech protection generally. As a compromise, since the article is new enough, I have put Je suis Charlie up for DYK instead here. Ritchie333(talk)(cont)11:04, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It would have been excusable to include one of the images above, but if people are going to oppose that, then let's have a montage of the cartoonists. The top example omits one and has some extraneous text; the lower one is perhaps not a suitable illustration, but we have a photo of the fifth person, so we certainly can montage them all in a fresh purpose-built image if people are willing to feature it.
Criticism may fairly be made that others were killed, but I think we can distinguish reasonably clearly between the primary targets who were selected intentionally, versus secondary targets who were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Wnt (talk) 15:23, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support any good free image to go with this. "http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Je+suis+Charlie+Hebdo%22&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ei=aImxVPyuNsykgwSX5IPQDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AU Je suis Charlie Hebdo" gets well over 60,000 hits in the news at google, over a million in the braoder google, and this is just a verbatim serach for the term. Our reporting it is exactly that: reporting it. For those who think our reporting this would be taking a POV, what would the opposite POV actually be? It would be like saying we couldn't, god forbid, report the death of the Queen, as that might be seen as suporting royalism. That's not how POV works. POV would be involved if there were some other movement claiming Je ne suis pas Charlie Hebdo" or claiming the phrase actually meant something else. On pure newsworthiness, and given this will reverberate on an encyclopedic timescale, the argument for support could not be stronger. μηδείς (talk) 20:28, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it would be equally meaningful to feature an image of the muslim policeman they executed in the street. Or the police officers they assassinated elsewhere in Paris. Or the hostages. Or the Hebdo workers who don't happen to have drawn cartoons. Or the dead jews. Plus the photo-montage is tacky in extreme, the cartoon montage a little more tasteful but hardly encyclopaedic. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to get dragged into a defence of murderers, so please don't try to facilitate such a farce. Advocacy is unacceptable, and that's that. RGloucester — ☎22:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, fine then. I change my vote to delete ITN outright including all current text items since WP is not news and does not feature breaking events differently than other encyclopedic data. You want to enforce policy, then by golly let's enforce policy. Wnt (talk) 22:18, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, we've all done the "it's my ball and I'm taking it" thing once in a while. The point here is that Wikipedia doesn't have to blindly follow news sources which are generally created to make money by selling stuff that appeals to the masses. Instead, our goal is to create an encyclopedia which is designed to report facts in a factual manner, without resorting to whoring out our main page as clickbait. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:30, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with images at ITN is that they are given very little context. The montage of the killed cartoonists, in the body of the article on the event, is fine as we have significant amount of room in prose to explain why the image is there. In ITN we have a blurb, and while showing who was killed can be considered a neutral facet of the story, without sufficient room to provide that context, it could easily be taken as endorsing of a memorial for those people or the like. That's why we have to take care in making sure the image does not have unintentional consequences due to lack of context. --MASEM (t) 17:04, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think the hand-drawn image is misleading. It's misleading because it would be used to illustrate a news event featuring five cartoonists. As ITN does not normally illustrate stories with cartoons, the obvious implication would be that it was drawn by one of the cartoonists in the news, but it's not. It's part of a collection of student works in response to the attacks. APL (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Combined Joint Task Force combating ISIL conducts ten airstrikes in Syria, eight of them targeting the contested city of Kobani, with the airstrikes destroying fourteen ISIL fighting positions and a building. (Reuters)
Various California state district attorneys fine Safeway a total of $10 million for the illegal dumping of electronics and pharmaceuticals into landfills. (KPIX)
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Oppose – Not significant from an encylopaedia's perspective, and the article is of a poor quality. There is no place for such a poor article on the main page. RGloucester — ☎23:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose in a better world, such incompetent malice might be shocking. In this world it is deplorable and tragic and evil but no big news. μηδείς (talk) 23:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Thank you for the nomination. One way to test if an item will qualify for ITN is to see if it is news in any country besides the one where the event occurred. JehochmanTalk13:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I could support this if it merits the normal full five-sentence paragraph update to one of the target articles. One might otherwise suspect a release of valueless patents as a PR stunt. μηδείς (talk) 23:58, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Thryduulf, but suggest we need at least three major independent sources (not green POV ones either) saying this is a big deal with actual economic repercussions. All sorts of things are patented that no one wants the patent to. μηδείς (talk) 02:31, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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Article:2015 Fort Bliss shooting (talk·history·tag) Blurb: A shooting at Fort Bliss, TX, leaves 2 dead. (Post) News source(s):Washington Post (note that I cited the new article rather well, so there are more sources there to check this one against) Credits:
Nominator's comments: This got major attention on most of the national US new networks two days ago, and highlights an ongoing problem with the US Veteran's Affairs unit, which has been embroiled in an ongoing scandal for nearly a year now. --TomStar81 (Talk) 23:57, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing wrong with your nomination, but when cities like Chicago have more than 1,000 fatal shootings in a year, two dead who are not inthemselves notable except s victims is not going to merit ITN coverage, especially given the other stories it's up against. Please do nominate others stories in the future. μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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A Libyan warplane bombs a Greek-operated oil tanker anchored offshore the city of Derna, killing two sailors, one Greek and one Romanian. The Greek government condemned what it called an "unprovoked and cowardly" attack and demanded an investigation and punishment for those responsible. (Reuters)
News emerges that two days prior hundreds of Boko Haram militants had overrun several towns in northeast Nigeria and captured the military base in Baga. (Wall Street Journal)
Two militants, one wearing a suicide vest, kill two Saudi Arabian border guards and a general near the border with Iraq. (Businessweek)
For the second day in a row a multi-story residential building in Nairobi, Kenya, collapses, this time an 8-story building, killing one person with eight people still missing. (AP via ABC)
For me personally I rather see an expansion. But if not possible I would definitely support posting anyway as this is a major dicsovery.--BabbaQ (talk) 23:22, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They implied on the radio she was a queen regnant. Support if the article is flushed out and especially if she wasn't just a consort. μηδείς (talk) 01:44, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see at this point the article has her as queen consort-not that I hold that against the nomination; it still just needs expansion. μηδείς (talk) 18:49, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Notable ESPN anchor who mainly anchored on SportsCenter. He was awarded the Jimmy V award at the 2014 ESPY awards. Andise1 (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose minor sports news broadcaster. Not sure he competes with other television anchors for being top of his field in any way, being awarded a "Jimmy V" for having cancer doesn't really cut it, in my opinion. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:04, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Of the most watched programme of it's genre. Also you can leave off "in America". Things don't become automatically insignificant merely because they happen in the U.S. The U.S. is as valid of a country as any other. Events should not be discounted only because they happen there as opposed to countries you find more worthy. --Jayron3200:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that his notability is only derived from being recognisable, having won no serious awards at all. The supporters appear to be suggesting he is top of the field because of being so emminently recognisable. This is, of course, only the case in the US. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:03, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Dismissing him as a "minor sports news broadcaster" is totally wrong. His legacy extends beyond sports; as others have noted, he once interviewed President Obama and the president himself released a statement on his death. -- Calidum20:05, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Calling Scott a 'minor sports news broadcaster' is effectively admitting to knowing nothing about him. While I'm not quite sure Scott rises to RD level, I have to agree with the IP who above refers to Scott as 'one of the most recognizable sports broadcasters during this generation.' He's a borderline case and it's a shame to see two users opposing per another user's totally inaccurate statement. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 20:52, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I guess if his passing was in the news and he wasn't limited to just ESPN Sports Center then you'd have a point. Can you point me to where he's recognised as top of his field, or is the main argument simply that he was recognisable by Americans? I read his article and saw nothing that stated he'd won any awards for being top of his field (e.g. broadcasting awards). Happy to change my view if you can point me to something other than a clear affection for a very popular broadcaster who, as far as I can tell, doesn't meet the RD criteria. Not one single supporter has demonstrated how he meets the criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While Scott's passing has been acknowledged by most big US sports outlets (not just ESPN), I think you do have a point that it isn't really in the news. I don't think that Scott earned many awards and my opinion of him as 'head of his field' is primarily based on my own experience and understanding of the American sports arena. The fact that the US President took the time to comment on Scott's passing does suggest some significance. I'm not going to complain at all if this doesn't get posted. I was primarily just taking issue, probably a bit rudely (my apologies), with your use of the word 'minor' in reference to Scott. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 21:04, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. The Prime Minister of the UK often comments on those people who are fondly remembered when they die, it's great PR, he's "down with the people". It's not a guide to RD notability as far as I can tell. So, forgetting that, this individual has no claim to being anything other than mildly popular in a small sphere of a small sphere on a large oblate spheroid. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:10, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I wouldn't quite call it a small sphere. Sports is very big in America and ESPN is pretty big too. Still, I'm not in any way convinced that your stance is wrong, so I won't argue further. Mellowed Fillmore (talk) 21:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I've never heard of him; I wasn't familiar with Cuomo or Brooke either, but both of those seem to be household names in the States and well-known internationally, both of their deaths were reported internationally, and both had an obvious legacy. Those are the sorts of names whose absence (though the latter is pending article improvement), would leave people scratching their heads. In this case, I imagine people would be scratching their heads if we did post. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:28, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't think Edward Brooke is a household name. His major claim to fame is much more specific than it may seem at first glance. I'd guess that Stuart Scott is much better known to the average American than Brooke. Zagalejo^^^23:38, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose - While this has been announced on many TV stations, I'm inclined to oppose this since my edit on Scott in the 2015 page was reverted. Aerospeed (Talk) 21:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Don't use that editor's justification. The bar for inclusion on the Year page is pretty high. The one for 2014 doesn't even include the U.S. midterm elections. 22:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk • contribs)
Oppose There have been other sportscasters that are much more significant in the field than him, fails RD. --MASEM (t) 23:16, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is probably a futile argument, but I think a significant percentage of Wikipedia's readers would expect to see Stuart Scott in recent deaths. He died fairly young, and though he probably wasn't at the top of his field, he had a distinctive broadcasting style and was involved with many major sporting events. FWIW, I have found some non-American sources reporting his death, eg [62], [63]. Zagalejo^^^23:38, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not worth much. It's an AP report (and a Portuguese precis of it) - anything on AP will automatically be on websites around the world, regardless of how likely anyone is to be interested. Formerip (talk) 00:04, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. At the top of his field, well known, very recognizable to a sizable portion of the readership of Wikipedia, death is making significant news in other major outlets. --Jayron3200:15, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. I'm not seeing how he meets the RD criteria. Being well known (and having the President comment on your death) doesn't mean one is "very important" to their field. 331dot (talk) 02:04, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I respect the points made in his favor, but this is a really hard sell. An anchor at sportscenter just doesn't cut it despite his popularity and young death. Also, the Jimmy V award is given by ESPN the company he worked for. --Johnsemlak (talk) 02:29, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support Sure, he didn't win accolades, beyond the single one - but he seems to have been a personality that was well-known. Influential in American sports broadcasters, a presence that is noted and has been very audibly missed. It fits RD2, from all I can see. Challenger l (talk) 04:38, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Being well known does not make one important to their field. How exactly was he influential? Have other sportscasters copied his style of broadcasting or otherwise commented that he has influenced broadcasting? As pointed out, the one award he got was given by his employer. 331dot (talk) 12:26, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. One of the best known sports broadcasters in the United States. For the field of news broadcasting, I think being well known by the public is the criteria that should be used to judge importance, and not something like winning awards (which the general public are unaware of and don't care about). Also, I know it isn't one of the RD criteria, but his death seems to be getting more coverage in the US than any so far this year. Calathan (talk) 22:24, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I have asked around, and outside ESPN afficionados he is not known, while plenty of other local sportscasters are widely known nationally. The death is tragic, but that in itself doesn't merit a posting. μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just curious, what do you mean by "local sportscasters"? Or, more to the point, "local"? (Not trying to be argumentative; I'm honestly curious who you have in mind. Someone like Vin Scully?) Zagalejo^^^22:54, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant is there are a lot of sportscasters who die who are associated with local teams in the US but who are known nationwide due to their long careers. No offense to Mr. Scott, but I contacted three people I know who follow sports (I watch games, but don't consider myself a fan) and two said he was that ESPN guy, and one said, I never heard of him until he died, given I don't watch ESPN. So it seems like a case of, say, a Fox News babe (no offense to Fox) who passes away, being known to Fox News watchers, and hence being famous to them, but otherwise nowhere near the top of their field like Sam Donaldson or David Brinkley were, even to those who did not watch their networks. I wold not be offended by a posting, but basically this seems like systemic bias from a population of mostly males under 26. μηδείς (talk) 00:07, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I don't think we need to go on about this, and I don't think it would be a problem if Scott pushed Rainer off the ticker. I simply wanted to point out, mostly to foreigners without ESPN, that he's not a household name to all Americans. The friend of which I spoke had ESPN for 15 years until recently going back to over-the-air broadcasts and streaming. He regularly watches Monday Night Football (and sets off the car alarm briefly after big wins for local sports teams) but not the aftergame and hasn't paid much attention to the NBA since the 76'ers were a force. In any case, when someone dies in sports he will usually roll off a litany of stats, anecdotes, and data, whereas I will recognize by name that the person was in sports. In this instance I am sure my informant could list a dozen national and local commentators, but he'd never even heard of Scott until he passed away. And all the other two informants (both former HS football players, one in Virginia, one in New Egland) who do watch ESPN could say was that they knew who he was. μηδείς (talk) 17:47, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:MV Höegh Osaka (talk·history·tag) Blurb: The MV Höegh Osaka develops a severe list and is beached in the Solent. Her 28 crew are rescued. (Post) News source(s):BBC Credits:
Oppose a non-story. I'm not fully aware of how many ships hit sandbanks and list per year, but as this is just a case of "bad driving" and no further damage, it probably doesn't even meet the criteria for notability. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:58, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. In the world's busiest shipping lane, it's not entirely surprising that things like this happen from time to time. If it was a passenger ferry or a cruise ship I might have supported. It's interesting, especially for folks on the South Coast, but there's not really any lasting significance. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: First African American US Senator, and only one for ~30 years. Recipient of both Presidential Medal of Freedom and Congressional Gold Medal which are described as the joint highest civilian honours in the US. --Thryduulf (talk) 22:46, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Note: he was the first popularly elected black US Senator; there were a few chosen by Southern Republican state legislatures after the Civil War. Meets DC2. 331dot (talk) 11:21, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose certainly a notable person, and worth stating that he was a Republican, but being black is not an accomplishment, and he's not remembered for any outstanding accomplishments as senator, so other than as a standard for a cause, he doesn't meet an ITN criterion. μηδείς (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support for RD. Significant national figure for a long time, and played a historically significant role throughout. Article quality is now appropriate for posting. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That is not relevant. I had never head of him either until a friend posted the news story of his death on Facebook. Once I read about him I realised his significance to the field of American politics - particularly you don't win both of the highest civilian honours for being run of the mill. Unfortunately I can't help improving the article referencing. Thryduulf (talk) 21:52, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Rsrikanth05, Brooke has obituaries published from The Times of India (India), BBC (United Kingdom), Sputnik (Russia), L'Express (France), Zeit (Germany), and Univisión Noticias (Latin American countries). This man is indeed notable outside the US. But he is more notable in the US. Plus what Thryduulf said is true, they will learn how notable he is. Isn't that the point of the Wikipedia. So that people from different countries can learn new things. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 00:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support once orange level tags are resolved. Please fix those first before posting, but clearly noteworthy enough for RD once the fixes are made. --Jayron3200:17, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ready in my view. The article is substantially referenced, although additional references are always welcome. The value of a "recent deaths" listing is lost if we delay posting of acceptable-albeit-imperfect articles until the deaths are no longer "recent." Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:41, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Pull The article is still fairly littered with cn tags, some for whole paragraphs of text. How is this up to scratch for posting?? I'm also struggling to interpret the above discussion as consensus that the article quality is sufficient - isn't NYB the only one arguing that it is? One ex-arb a consensus does not make. GoldenRing (talk) 05:05, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:MV Cemfjord (talk·history·tag) Blurb: The cargo ship MV Cemfjord' sinks in the Pentland Firth off the north-east coast of Scotland with the apparent loss of all eight crew (Post) Credits:
Nominator's comments: I can anticipate some opposition to this, and I don't feel strongly about it myself, but unlike some recent nominations it does have an article, which is in good shape, and it do no harm to have a change to the top item (currently Lithuania, which was posted at 03:00 UTC on the 1st. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:05, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Reluctantly, since we ought to post something before February arrives. Boats sink quite frequently, though, and this seems to be only the second most reported boat-sink related story in UK waters today. Formerip (talk) 22:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Member of the country music hall of fame, oldest member of the Grand Old Opry, and an influential country musician. Andise1 (talk) 04:39, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From the "please do not" section above: " complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one." Connormah (talk) 00:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support once updated. I'm too young except to remember his novelty hit, but my parents, who listened to country music of that era said it was about time. μηδείς (talk) 02:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
U.S. fast-food restaurant chain Chick-fil-A warns that a security breach may have leaked credit card details of 9,000 customers in five states. (Daily Mail)
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Support This was nominated on October 16, when the results were first known, but it was pointed out, that it only gets posted when the new members take their seats, which is January 1st. Maybe it should be posted when the results are announced, to stop people branding the item a stale, when it's nominated at the correct time. 121.222.247.97 (talk) 20:43, 5 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Comment. For the avoidance of confusion, "Miss Golden Globe" seems to be less an award, more like being a mascot. Is this correct? Formerip (talk) 02:07, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not top of the field, many of the "Miss Golden Globe" recipients aren't even considered notable enough for their own articles. Plus article is shoddy. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:51, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Comment. Being well known in politics doesn't mean he is "very important" to the field of politics. His national reputation seems to consist of criticism of President Reagan; he held no national office. I'm not yet formally opposing this, but I'm not sure he can meet the bar for RD as a state politician. 331dot (talk) 01:41, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From what I've read, he seems unusually notable for a state politician, which is why I thought I'd sick a nomination up. If he's well-known outside o New York (I'm a Brit, I honestly don't know!), I'd say he probably merits an RD. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:52, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I was a huge critic and voted against him, but based on our criteria, he was a famous governor of a large state and a strong contender for the presidency, whose son is now Governor of New York. Very encyclopedic in stature. μηδείς (talk) 02:01, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support for posting promptly. Long-time state governor, national figure, Supreme Court candidate, was continuously in the national news for 20 years. Falls into the functional RD category of "if he's not posted, people will wonder why not." Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:25, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'm from Pennsylvania, so I haven't any connection to Cuomo, but he was a very well known and significant figure in American politics for many years. In fact, I'd be willing to say that he was far more notable than most state governors at the time.-RHM22 (talk) 03:49, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. While normally I would say "not a national-level politician", the article is of great quality and fully explains his life an impact, and this high quality of the article makes me willing to support this for RD. SpencerT♦C07:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose From what I see, the treaty was signed on 29 May 2014 and today that treaty just comes into force (don't remember whether we posted signing or not). It's comparable to posting presidential inaguration instead of election results. Brandmeistertalk14:20, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's not often that a continental union is formed and a treaty does not guarantee it's existence (in spacetime) (but it happening does). Heck, it could even be seen as a much looser USSR. Inaugurations are far more common in comparison. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I feel like I should be supporting this, but I'm noticing that the major news outlets seem to be ignoring it (even Russia Today!) and, from reading our article, I am not able to work out how it differs much from the Eurasian Economic Community that existed yesterday. If it's mainly about ordering new business cards and letterheads, then I'm not sure we should post it. Is anyone able to enlighten me? Formerip (talk) 21:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Media outlets (especially Eurasian ones) have been covering it all year round, so there's really no reason for them to even more. The difference between the Community and the EEU is that the latter is a more integrated single market, with free movement of goods, capital, services and people (It's similar to the difference between the European Economic Community and the European Union, without the political components to it). Common transport, energy, agriculture and energy policies are also now in force. There are provisions to create a single currency, a parliament and deepening integration in the future. This is why I thought we could consider it.—Mentoroso (talk) 21:50, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Putin has glorified the Soviet days since he became president 31 December 1999. Not the Marxism-Leninism part but the superpower-ness. He has whitewashed school history books. Russia economically wasn't so great in the 90s, after awhile of that the cons of the USSR might not be remembered as strongly. Anyway isn't it a bit insulting that the Eurasian flag is built around a very detailed silhouette of Eurasia, as if Sri Lanka, Japan, France, India, Norway, KSA, Bangladesh, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Singapore, Sinai, Israel, Taiwan and the other EU nations depicted would want to join that Union. If you put territory that you don't have on your flag it makes you look expansionistic. Also, it looks like they only excluded the Southeast Asia islands for aesthetic anti-clutter and "it'd make the ex-USSR look too small" reasons and Iceland, Spain, Portugal, the UK, Ireland and any islands thereof was not shown because that would make the EU and Europe's shape too obvious. And also the previous reasons where applicable (i.e. Spain sticks out too much, making the former USSR smaller if included). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose extremely stale, and in the news (that is, press releases) now as a foil to the fact the ruble has crashed and Russia is facing hyperinflation and economic collapse. μηδείς (talk) 02:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Having looked into it a bit, yes it does represent a significant event, because the freedom of movement principles are new. Not at all stale, Medeis, given that it came itto force in two stages yesterday and today, and I don't see how the context of Russia's economic woes make this less significant rather than more. Formerip (talk) 02:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done --Jayron32 21:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Comment:: I have updated the references section of the election article. I believe it is now ready to be posted. Please do consider posting this. This is quite significant as the winner's electoral margin was just 27,757 votes. Ali Fazal (talk) 16:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
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