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November 30[edit]

November 30, 2023 (2023-11-30) (Thursday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and incidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) Botticelli's recovered painting[edit]

(NON-ADMIN CLOSURE)
Consensus to post unlikely to develop. The Kip 22:11, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Madonna delle Grazie (Botticelli) (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The missing painting Madonna delle Grazie by Sandro Botticelli is recovered in Italy. (Post)
News source(s): CNN, Guardian, etc
Credits:

Article updated
While lost paintings do occasionally pop up, this, being Botticelli's, looks particularly noteworthy. Brandmeistertalk 15:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
oppose - per above PrecariousWorlds (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) LGBT rights in Russia[edit]

No consensus to post. SpencerT•C 05:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: LGBT rights in Russia (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In a setback for LGBT rights in Russia, the country's Supreme Court bans the "LGBT movement" as "extremist". (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In a setback for LGBT rights in Russia, the country's Supreme Court bans the "LGBT movement".
Alternative blurb II: ​ Russia's Supreme Court is condemned by LGBT rights supporters for banning the "LGBT movement".
Alternative blurb III: ​ In Russia, the country's Supreme Court bans the "LGBT movement".
Alternative blurb IV: ​ The Russian Supreme Court outlaws the "international LGBT movement" as "extremist".
News source(s): Reuters
Credits:
Blurb is a bit convoluted in order to fit the primary article, open to rephrasing. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 01:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Objectively, I think this news story meets the customary criteria for a blurb. However, Wikipedia, and ITN more specifically are not here to right great wrongs. And article quality is frankly nowhere near acceptable for posting. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose solely on quality as target article is orange-tagged. Definitely notable enough, though - it’s not just the banning of a single organization, but the entire movement. Rather disturbing news, honestly. The Kip 03:11, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Emperor Putin has already effectively banned the LGBT movement for years. He classified the flag and references as pornographic material and has had people arrested. He also banned same sex marriage via the constitutional amendment he pushed through. Hard to see how this is any different.
Noah, AATalk 03:28, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality - besides the CN, the summary table should have sources (which ought to reuse what's already present) --Masem (t) 03:42, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on notability, not ready on quality per Ad Orientem. Best case scenario is they've outlawed all public expression supportive of LGBT rights, worst case scenario is they've effectively outlawed being LGBT in public, and either of those are notable. All we know as a matter of fact is that the Supreme Court outlawed "the international LGBT movement". why does that terminology sound so familiar?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 04:06, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Adding that my preference is for Altblurb IV - my !vote was originally going to have paragraphs of ramblings about how I don't like using the term "the LGBT movement" in Wikivoice and how that does not adequately tell the reader what actually got banned for a number of fairly obvious reasons, "the LGBT movement" is not an entity or organization that can be dissolved by a legal ruling, it is a category of person and those who are supportive of said people, hence why even the target article LGBT movement is actually named LGBT movements plural. But I got into edit conflict after edit conflict and lost the original ramblings, and at the time no other users had expressed issue with the language so I was worried I'd just look like a crazy nitpicker anyways. Thankfully, multiple other editors have said what I wanted to say (in much fewer words than I was going to use) and someone even offered up a satisfactory altblurb.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 13:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No you're right that the language wasn't adequate, wasn't sure how to phrase it but having the claim in quotes is much better indeed. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:12, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support on the basis of notability, but I think the blurbs currently proposed are unclear. I propose the following alternate blurb: Russian Supreme Court outlaws the "international LGBT movement" as "extremist". --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 06:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I added this proposal as Alt 4. JM (talk) 07:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality, way too many CN tags, and as far as I can tell there's only one line of update for this event, let alone having its own section. However if this ends up getting posted, if there ends up being a consensus to post, i would support Alt 4 because the first 2 blurbs are not NPOV, the 2nd altblurb is not the main story, and Alt3 definitely has the wrong bolded words (should be "bans" that is bolded, not "LGBT movement"). JM (talk) 07:46, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose any blurb which uncritically refers to "the LGBT movement". To the extent the phrase means anything (our wikilink redirects to the crucially more accurate LGBT movements), it is an unquestioning repeating of the conspiracist rhetoric used by the justice department, which Reuters translates as "the international LGBT social movement". Far better to reflect the term "activist" which Reuters uses when not referring to government statements, eg. "In Russia, the country's Supreme Court bans the LGBT activism." (Edit conflicted here, ALT4 is an alternative that presents the statement as a quote, which is another option resolving this issue.) CMD (talk) 08:00, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, wasn't feeling too well about it but didn't know how to word it better. Thanks for the better wordings that make it clear that "LGBT movement" is not a real, specific thing, but at the same time that it will have an impact on actual LGBT people. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 17:25, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose So, what? The LGBT movement is banned in much of Africa, Central Asia and Western Asia. There are even countries in which LGBT people get death penalties (e.g. Iran) or get tortured before death (e.g. Saudi Arabia). In addition, the LGBT community in Russia didn't have many rights prior to this decision so that this can be considered a major setback (note that death is regularly enforced in Chechnya). I think decrimanlisation in Iran or Saudi Arabia would be a much greater news than this decision that changes very little in practice.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:18, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Chechnya is an autonomous republic, and not representative of the laws in Russia at large. This is a much bigger and much more worrying change. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 17:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The blurbs are absolutely woeful, but the difference is that rather than saying "you can't be gay" and hurting those who still are, Russia has now apparently labelled any form of belief that LGBT+ people can exist as extremist ideology and basically treachery (comments from Milonov on 'extremist aims to destabilise Russia'). So not just LGBT+ people will face prison, but anyone who acknowledges homosexuality/bisexuality/etc is real. And it seems by calling it extremism (instead of just criminalising), Russia extends their powers in how harshly suspects can be treated, too. Kingsif (talk) 22:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    So not just LGBT+ people will face prison, but anyone who acknowledges homosexuality/bisexuality/etc is real this is hyperbole, the authorities themselves must acknowledge that homosexuality is real in order to persecute these people. It's fully possible to describe the significance of such a ruling and its consequences without exaggeration. JM (talk) 22:40, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Milonov said they would try to clamp down on any information about LGBT+, period: it's not hyperbole. And how would the authorities have to acknowledge homosexuality is real to clamp down? They follow the party line that it's something made up to destroy families. (ed: Which seems to be the whole point of this new ruling, actually. Formalising for prosecution purposes that Russia says LGBT+ isn't real but a dangerous ideology the West has created to harm the state.) I know that a 'lesser' version of this ruling would be severe and significant, but they've really started with full censorship/invisibility tactics here. Kingsif (talk) 23:33, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe the issue here is that we are using two different meanings of "real". Your "real" is "something that exists and is natural", my "real" is "something that exists whether invented or natural". It doesn't really matter, the result in Russia is the same, and so the significance for blurbing is the same. JM (talk) 23:48, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the issue might be a little more in your interpretation of the legislation, because that's not how I meant "real". But yes, it's moot. Kingsif (talk) 00:07, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Per @Kiril Simeonovski PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:13, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose solely on quality The news are definitely notable, but as others above have stated, there are far too many CN tags within the article. --Bucket of sulfuric acid (talk) 11:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RD: Elliott Erwitt[edit]

Article: Elliott Erwitt (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, The New York Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

French-born American photographer, notable for documenting personalities such as Richard Nixon and Marilyn Monroe, as well as events such as the 2009 inauguration of Barack Obama and John F. Kennedy's state funeral. Mr. Lechkar (talk) 23:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Alistair Darling[edit]

This item is going to drop off the list in 6 hours and it still has six "citation needed" tags. Closing this so that other editors don't have to invest time to find out where this is at. Schwede66 17:24, 7 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: Alistair Darling (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Sky News, BBC News
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Former Labour Party Chancellor of the Exchequer and Member of Parliament (MP). BlakeIsHereStudios (talk) 13:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose: needs work on the citations. - SchroCat (talk) 13:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per above - far too much unreferenced material. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There are still some area's not sourced, but I don't know how strict to be for a yes or not on RD. Govvy (talk) 15:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    1 or 2 CN tags is considered fine, any more than that is usually not. JM (talk) 07:54, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Since when? It most certainly wasn't considered fine 12 months ago. Polyamorph (talk) 14:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:ITNQUALITY one or two "citation needed" tags may not hold up an article JM (talk) 15:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think that means one or two cns should not hold up the posting but rather that it's possible one or two wouldn't be seen by some/many people as a problem, especially if the content that is tagged isn't controversial. I don't think it's making a definite statement that one or two is fine, even if they're on contentious material and/or editors are objecting. Valereee (talk) 15:32, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That also states Biographies of living persons are held to higher standards of referencing because of their sensitive nature, and these rules also apply to those recently deceased. As such I don't think the 'one or two' cn tags flexibility applies for RD. Personally I don't think it's acceptable on any article, but it certainly hasn't been acceptable to have cn tags on previous RD discussions. Polyamorph (talk) 15:40, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There was just an argument about this in Kissinger's RD/blurb discussion, where Vanilla Wizard said the following: WP:BLP does not apply to the recently deceased when their death is confirmed by reliable sources. Any extension to BLP on such an article only apply to contentious or questionable material about the subject that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or particularly gruesome crime. JM (talk) 15:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    That argument does not represent the consensus here, as stated in WP:ITNQUALITY that you referenced. If you want this change in how things are done at ITN for RD then a more extensive discussion is needed, at this project's talk page and update the criteria notes accordingly. Polyamorph (talk) 16:28, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Take it up with Vanilla Wizard, I'm just quoting them from below, where it seemed to be 4v1 in favour of BLP not applying to confirmed deaths (Vanilla Wizard, Ed, BilledMammal, and F4U vs Masem), so they seem to disagree that it goes against policy. Additionally, Queen of Hearts had no problem agreeing that ITNQUALITY was not an issue for a few CNs. Oh and also as far as I can tell BLP doesn't say we can't have any CN tags, just that contentious material must be sourced to RS. JM (talk) 17:51, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Take it up with Vanilla Wizard they're not the one discussing here. This is not the place to decide consensus. Your 5v1 count is not consensus. Historically, here at ITN, RDs have required cn tags be addressed before posting. If you want to change that, a discussion is needed at the talk page, not here. Polyamorph (talk) 18:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC) note: the comment this is response to has been edited Polyamorph (talk) 18:14, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said, the only consensus I see is that of the Kissinger discussion, where the consensus of people involved in the ITNQUALITY/BLP arguement was that a few CNs was fine. That's the only consensus on that area that I can recall (I haven't been here long) and it contradicts what you're saying. So where is this consensus you are talking about? If I could see it then I could judge for myself. JM (talk) 18:15, 2 December 2023 (UTC) note: my comment was corrected within 2 minutes of your comment, before I saw you had commented, in order to clarify that Queen of Hearts agreed with the ITNQUALITY part, not specifically the BLP part. JM (talk) 18:19, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I've opened a thread on the talk page, as this is not the correct place for this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 18:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Shane MacGowan[edit]

Article: Shane MacGowan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Lead singer of the Pogues (Fairytale of New York) The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 12:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 29[edit]

November 29, 2023 (2023-11-29) (Wednesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Science and technology

Sports

(Posted) RD: Michèle Rivasi[edit]

Proposed image
Article: Michèle Rivasi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): France Bleu
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

French MEP since 2009, arrested for breaking into the Kleine Brogel Air Base out of protest with three other MEPs. Jmanlucas (talk) 18:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Reposted) RD/blurb: Henry Kissinger[edit]

Quality issues addressed, reposted. (non-admin closure) Curbon7 (talk) 07:27, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Proposed image
Article: Henry Kissinger (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  American statesman Henry Kissinger dies at age 100. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Former U.S. secretary of state Henry Kissinger dies at the age of 100.
News source(s): WaPo
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Been waiting for this day. Davey2116 (talk) 01:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

now now, this is still Wikipedia let’s not turn ITN/C in to a place where we celebrate somebody’s death. We can do that in the privacy of our own homes. nableezy - 01:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No it's not. He was 100! His death is no surprise at all!! HiLo48 (talk) 02:58, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What evidence do you have that he was "one of the most powerful and effective figures in geopolitics"? Chrisclear (talk) 02:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I defer to the biographical article proposed for a blurb. The lede contains multiple sentences noting that Kissinger held a very prominent role in the foreign policy of the United States during his tenure and as such became regarded as a highly effective and influential secretary of state, with some even regarding him as the most effective in the last half-century. I can think of few other geopoliticians whose decisions had so much sway over a nation's foreign policy, and whose ideas continued to influence future leaders even after his time in government came to an end. I'll even go as far as to say this isn't necessarily an Ameri-centric blurb — how many nations' histories have been touched by his decisions?  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 02:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alt blurb. Maybe American-centric, but hugely notable and controversial. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 02:05, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - obviously one of the most influential and well-known figures of the late 20th century; definitely a leader in his field until today. — Knightoftheswords 02:08, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb as per what others have said above. Alt blurb is a bit more descriptive and neutral than OG blurb. For five more minutes...it's just a single vice 02:38, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support- His legacy was important in US geopolitics during the Cold War. In addition, his death was recent so it would make sense to be in the news. Rager7 (talk) 02:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, obviously. BilledMammal (talk) 02:41, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb or alt blurb. Hate him or love him, he was immensely important on a world scale. Valereee (talk) 02:44, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt blurb, per those above. BD2412 T 02:50, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality Support !votes without addressing quality need to be ignored before even considering a blurb. --Masem (t) 02:52, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Looking at the article I don't see any quality issues so significant that they would prevent the posting of this blurb; while quality is important, it doesn't need to be perfect, and the more significant the topic the further it can be from perfect to still be appropriate to post. BilledMammal (talk) 02:56, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      There are "citation needed" and at least one unsourced paragraphs. Those are dead stops if we are considering a blurb. We do not sacrifice quality to rush something like this to post. Masem (t) 02:59, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Given the length of the article, the number of "citation needed" tags appears to be appropriate per WP:ITNQUALITY, and I'm not seeing any entire sections that lack sources or red/orange tags. BilledMammal (talk) 03:24, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      WRONG. Its a BLP, its held to a higher standard. Zero CNs and zero unsourced paragraphs are the target. Masem (t) 04:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      He's not alive. Have you not read the blurb? ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 04:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      BLP applies to the recently deceased (for at least a period of 6 months). Masem (t) 04:11, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Not sure where you're pulling this out of, but it does not (not without editorial consensus which is clearly unlikely to exist). WP:BDP is the link to the relevant section. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 04:13, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      I too was going to reply to this to bring up WP:BDP. WP:BLP does not apply to the recently deceased when their death is confirmed by reliable sources. Any extension to BLP on such an article only apply to contentious or questionable material about the subject that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide or particularly gruesome crime. Unless any contentious material in the article could plausibly have implications for living relatives of Kissinger, BLP does not apply to this article.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 04:17, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      There was some change in that policy in 2021 [1] which did not seem to have any RFC, and was a result of one editor taking an initiative based on an ANI thread, which did not seem to have consensus. The prior version of BDP was clear that it wasn't just contentious material that was important to consider for recently deceased. I am going to open a discussion on WT:BLP related to this.
      That said, quality is still a core requirement for any posting, and if we've been looking for CN-free articles for other RDs, we absolutely can expect the same here, and it wasn't like it was days away from being fixed - it was a handful that within hours has gotten fixed. Too many editors here blinding !voting support without workign on improving the article or considering the quality is epidemic of well-known figures. Masem (t) 05:07, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      ITNQUALITY does not align with the opinion expressed in your first sentence. Ed [talk] [OMT] 06:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt blurb one of the most influential persons of the 20th century. --TheDutchViewer (talk) 02:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No blurb A major person. That's why he has a lovely big article. But his significant actions were all many decades ago. Nothing new to be said. And we must obviously ignore every comment that effectively says he obviously deserves a blurb. That's NOT an argument! HiLo48 (talk) 02:57, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By that logic, Nelson Mandela and Margaret Thatcher would not have been blurbed. starship.paint (RUN) 03:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kissinger was never a leader of a country. HiLo48 (talk) 03:06, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pelé was never a leader of a country either, we blurbed him. starship .paint (RUN) 03:10, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And shouldn't have. Your point? HiLo48 (talk) 04:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My logic is that they shouldn't have been. JM (talk) 04:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb. One of the most influential political figures of the last hundred years. I agree with the concern that statesman sounds too favourable. I'd *personally* go with "war criminal" but in the interest of compromise would accept the alternative blurb. Would also accept no blurb, but I think it would be odd to not have his death noted on the main page at all.
Patitsel (talk) 04:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which war crimes was Kissinger convicted of? ITN is not a place for polemic. We can't say "war criminal" if he wasn't convicted. JM (talk) 05:02, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
People really shouldn't live this long after their career ends. Valereee (talk) 03:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You'll need to bring that up to God. -- RockstoneSend me a message! 03:25, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
God's got a lot of explaining to do, in my book. Valereee (talk) 03:35, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTFORUM if you have opinions on things other than significance or article quality you should go to Twitter or something. JM (talk) 04:53, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support altblurb per above on notibilty. Being a more high-profile member of the U.S. Government and arguably one of the most powerful members to never be president, his death merits a blurb. Although I understand the reasons behind those who !oppose, I stand by my vote. On quality: Yes, there are some CN tags still in article, but the number has been reduced to 2. Ideally, those should be rectified as well, but for an article of this length, it can sort of get away with 2 tags. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 04:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting Support - Considering just how influential in global affairs he continued to be even up to the age of 100. Whatever you think of him, damn, what a life PrecariousWorlds (talk) 07:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Sticky Vicky[edit]

Article: Sticky Vicky (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): LadBible Joe
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

NAEGABYEONHAE (talk) 12:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 28[edit]

November 28, 2023 (2023-11-28) (Tuesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

(Posted) RD: Agyemang Diawusie[edit]

Article: Agyemang Diawusie (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Bundesliga Jahn Regensberg Kicker
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

German association football player. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 17:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: James Douglas-Hamilton, Baron Selkirk of Douglas[edit]

Article: James Douglas-Hamilton, Baron Selkirk of Douglas (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Herald
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Scottish politician. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 19:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support a few unsourced claims, not enough to be a significant issue JM (talk) 10:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Mali (elephant)[edit]

Article: Mali (elephant) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Rappler
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

KTerPalmers (talk) 01:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Charlie Munger[edit]

Article: Charlie Munger (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CNBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Thriley (talk) 21:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per above JM (talk) 01:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) India tunnel collapse rescue[edit]

Proposed image
Article: 2023 Uttarakhand tunnel rescue (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ All 41 workers who were trapped in the under construction Silkyara-Barkot tunnel are rescued after 17 days. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ After 17 days trapped in a collapsed tunnel in Uttarkashi, all 41 workers are rescued.
News source(s): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/indian-rescuers-reach-41-men-trapped-in-tunnel
Credits:

Article updated
Support - Wow! Absolutely incredible story, definitely deserves to go up! Change of pace from the usual depressing news stream PrecariousWorlds (talk) 20:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 27[edit]

November 27, 2023 (2023-11-27) (Monday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

NZ New PM[edit]

Proposed image
Articles: Christopher Luxon (talk · history · tag) and Sixth National Government of New Zealand (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Christopher Luxon becomes Prime Minister of New Zealand after forming a coalition government. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In New Zealand, Christopher Luxon is elected prime minister after his New Zealand National Party wins a majority of seats in New Zealand Parliament. Factually inaccurate.
Alternative blurb II: ​ In New Zealand, Christopher Luxon becomes the country's prime minister after the New Zealand National Party forms a coalition with 2 other parties in the New Zealand Parliament.
News source(s): AP News Radio New Zeland New Zealand Hearld
Credits:

One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Kiwiz1338 (talk) 00:51, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We posted both the Italian election and Meloni's government formation earlier this year, so it is not a "we do not" situation, but rather a "is this an appropriate case to double-post" situation. Curbon7 (talk) 22:17, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Needs work Work done This is WP:ITN/R because he had to form a coalition to become PM – see recent discussions about Spain and Netherlands. But the target article needs work to explain the coalition. For example, the big news which the BBC is highlighting is reversal of the policy of banning tobacco as "...National's partners in the governing coalition- the populist New Zealand First and libertarian Act - had been "insistent" on reversing the laws. Despite election victory, the centre-right National party has struggled for weeks in policy negotiations to form a government with the two minor parties." Andrew🐉(talk) 16:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Gotitbro. The Kip 18:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Good work has been done by Andykatib and others, creating a substantial and detailed article about the new coalition government. I have added this to the nomination which looks good to go now. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment We don't "elect" a prime minister in New Zealand and therefore, the altblurb is wrong. What happens is that the leader of the largest party that is part of the governing coalition becomes prime minister by convention, and that is not necessarily the leader of the party with the most votes (as was the case after the 2017 New Zealand general election). Schwede66 21:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    i just copied the Jacinda Ardern one that got onto the news. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 00:46, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    And to be fair, I did not write the altblurb. Kiwiz1338 (talk) 00:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this is not even ITN/R since the election was covered. And also like Schwede66 says the altblurb is factually incorrect, the PM is appointed by the governor-general, not elected by anyone. JM (talk) 22:01, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The choosing of the PM can be posted outside of the election, but there was no doubt here that Luxon would be the PM. In the case of some other countries elections, it was not at all clear who the PM would be at first(Spain and now the Netherlands) 331dot (talk) 22:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I wonder in gov't systems where the Prime Minister is selected by a coalition or majority of the elected Parliament at some point after the general election to elect those Parliament members, that the ITNR should be the selection of the PM, and not the results of the general election. I am sure that a near majority of the time, the likely PM can be predicated off the results of the general election, but if there is this official process of the second election/vote getting to actually being named PM, that seems the more significant result. Masem (t) 01:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose -the election was already posted, so it's incorrect to post that this is ITN/R. --RockstoneSend me a message! 00:39, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose- As consensus states, the election already occurred hence it's no longer a current event. Rager7 (talk) 00:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The election isn't a current event, but the forming of the government is. --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 05:16, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The ITN/R event is that Luxon has become PM, which is a separate entry there. We did not report him becoming PM in the election blurb which just said "The National Party, led by Christopher Luxon, wins the most seats in the New Zealand general election." Now the other shoe has dropped and we have more news to report. Now that the shape of his government is settled, it's generating headlines and we have a detailed article which explains it. That article did not exist at the time of the election. "That was then but this is now." Andrew🐉(talk) 12:20, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Jean Knight[edit]

Article: Jean Knight (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Rolling Stone, People, The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
R&B and soul singer from New Orleans, Louisiana, best known for her 1971 hit single, "Mr. Big Stuff" on Stax Records. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Orange needs more references tag, which I agree with Aaron Liu (talk) 14:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Valid orange maintenance template. Article needs more references. 🔥Jalapeño🔥 Stupid stuff I did 07:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 26[edit]

November 26, 2023 (2023-11-26) (Sunday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Sports

(Posted) RD: Geordie Walker[edit]

Article: Geordie Walker (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NME
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Freetown attacks[edit]

Article: 2023 Freetown attacks (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Sierra Leone declares a nationwide curfew after attacks on military facilities in Freetown. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In Sierra Leone's capital Freetown, militants attack barracks and a prison.
News source(s): Reuters, The Guardian, France 24
Credits:

Still a Start-class article, hoping to bring a bit of attention to help bring it up to ITN quality. Very recent development, possible attempted coup, identity of the group responsible still unknown. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 18:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wait - From what I'm seeing nobody knows what on Earth is actually going on here. Coup d'tat, terrorists. Completely unknown at this point. We can't post something like this when we have so little information PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:15, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Reposted) 2023 MotoGP World Championship[edit]

Proposed image
Article: 2023 MotoGP World Championship (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In motorcycle racing, Francesco Bagnaia wins the MotoGP World Championship. (Post)
News source(s): Autosport
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Acticle waiting for updates. Unnamelessness (talk) 14:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the fourth series in Spain, Bagnaia won the sprint race, then in the main race despite the drama of the red flag on the first lap due to an incident that occurred between Miguel Oliveira and Fabio Quartararo, finally from the race that was repeated Bagnaia won his second victory at this season. Followed by Brad Binder and Jack Miller.
Further examples abound ("Bagnaia made a mistake that crash in the gravel trap"). This isn't main page quality. Moscow Mule (talk) 15:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull - I agree with the comment above. One of the ITN criteria for article quality is that the article should be "well written with clear prose". The season summary is well-written in places but not everywhere - the section about the Australian race is still in the future tense, and from the Qatar race - "The next round is in Qatar, Luca Marini secured seconds career pole positions with all new time lap record at this track.". This isn't suitable quality for an article linked from the main page, sorry. There is excessive linking too - e.g. Jorge Martin is linked 11 times in the season summary section. Bcp67 (talk) 16:10, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pulled – please ping me when the quality issues have been resolved (but I'll be out of coverage for half a day, so someone else needs to reinstate this if it gets resolved quickly). Schwede66 18:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support now @Schwede66:. The season summary looks a lot better, credit to User:Grdijk for their work on it. --Bcp67 (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. Excellent work by Grdijk on the summary prose. But per Bcp67 a lot of the names are still linked repeatedly. And the article is still largely impenetrable to the uninitiated: compare the introductory sentence here with other blurbs currently up:
The 2023 FIM MotoGP World Championship was the premier class of the 75th FIM Road Racing World Championship season.
The 2023 ICC Men's Cricket World Cup was the 13th edition of the Cricket World Cup, a quadrennial One Day International (ODI) cricket tournament contested by men's national teams and organised by the International Cricket Council (ICC)
The 2023 Booker Prize is an annual literary award given for the best English-language novel of the year published in either the United Kingdom or Ireland.
I'd like to see a mention of the vehicles involved, or some useful links, at the very least. What exactly is going on here? A bit more context.
The Calendar section tells me this is a competition that takes place in various places across the world over a number of months. That should be explained at the start of the Season summary, too. And some of the 20 races listed don't get a mention in the summary, which smacks of over-reliance on the tables. The first sentence draws a distinction between the "sprint race" and the "main race" (with the former an innovation, as we learn later) but doesn't explain that distinction. The article as it stands still assumes too much on the part of the reader: What does a "red-flagged race" entail? And "the black flag with orange disk"? What is "P2"? (Link or explain, please.) And tonally: does this read like an encyclopedia article or motorsports journalism? ("Legendary", in particular, is listed on MOS:Words to watch.) Moscow Mule (talk) 21:15, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are requesting details of a kind that would never be included in an article on F1 motor racing, Word Cup Football, or the Superbowl. If people want details like that, they can click on links to find out. HiLo48 (talk) 00:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are no links to click on to find out. "The 2023 FIM MotoGP World Championship was the premier class of the 75th FIM Road Racing World Championship season": nothing other than the expansion of the acronym for FIM. Compare it to the introductory sentence of the Cricket World Cup article. 2023 MotoGP World Championship doesn't even have a link to motorcycles in general, let alone the specific class of motorcycle that's eligible to compete. Moscow Mule (talk) 00:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK< so it needs links, but I still believe you're asking for details that the fans already know. I can assure you that when I see articles about some American sports, I often have no idea what some of the terms mean, but I don't complain, because I know that fans do. HiLo48 (talk) 00:43, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I normally don't look at sports articles, but are they really meant for fans only? No casual/curious readers allowed? Because elsewhere (eg. Milei and the Argentine election) we explain the electoral system, the structure of parliament/congress, the rules governing presidential terms & eligibility, the parties' ideological leanings, immediate historical background, etc., etc., etc. And anything opaque or potentially so (ballotage system, d'Hondt method) is linked or glossed. Nothing is assumed: even 2024 United States presidential election tells us "Voters will elect a president and vice president for a term of four years" -- well, duh. And no one would assert an article like either of those is for fans of elections and politics (or of South and North America) only. Moscow Mule (talk) 01:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TECHNICAL: Wikipedia articles should be written for the widest possible general audience. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Karachi mall fire[edit]

Consensus is that the event does not get support on ITN notability. Schwede66 21:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: 2023 Karachi mall fire (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ At least 11 people have been killed and 35 injured in a fire at a shopping mall in Karachi, Pakistan. (Post)
News source(s): Guardian, Reuters, NY Times, AP News, Al Jazeera, FOX News, ABC
Credits:

Ainty Painty (talk) 05:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on both notability and quality, minor disaster and the article isn't up to shape. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 13:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on notability --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 05:17, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Terry Venables[edit]

Article: Terry Venables (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
“Meets all requirements” The entirely unsourced sections don’t bother you? 83.80.192.174 (talk) 18:46, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2023 Booker Prize[edit]

Article: Prophet Song (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The novel Prophet Song by Paul Lynch wins the Booker Prize. (Post)
News source(s): [4], [5]. [6]
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
We really should have one of either the author or the book as a bold link. The update to the Booker Prize list is a trivial matter, so we should see a quality article on either or both the author or book. Here, I see all but a couple of awards that Lynch would need to be cited to be ready, and the book article just needs some more expansion (for example, Lynch's explanation of the book from here or perhaps from here. There's clearly more sourcing available to expand the book a notch more. Masem (t) 01:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can we add primary sources, ie. interviews with Paul Lynch? Golan1911 (talk) 01:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lynch and the book are both independently notable via secondary sources, so adding primary source interviews to add more information is completely fine. Primary sources are not something to avoid, you just don't want an article based only on primary sources. Masem (t) 03:58, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikipedia page/article for the book was expanded upon. Golan1911 (talk) 03:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Article is terrible. Essentially just a list at the moment PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Because of the significant updates to both the book article (for Prophet Song) and to the Paul Lynch article. And because the updates include references and citations to credible sources. So both articles can be used for the blurb. The article for the 2023 Booker Prize is Ok, too.Trauma Novitiate (talk) 13:21, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support: Prophet Song article is of good quality. Not sure about the prize. It doesn’t have much but doesn’t have much potential either. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Now that the target article is the great book article instead of the not-so-great prize article, Im changing my vote to support. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support Prophet Song and Paul Lynch articles are short but adequate. Booker Prize article is a disaster length-wise, but as mentioned above I'm not sure it can really be expanded further than its current state. The Kip 18:19, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Correct me if I’m wrong you all, but I just want to reiterate what Masem said above: “The update to the Booker Prize list is a trivial matter, so we should see a quality article on either or both the author or book.” That’s correct because per ITN/R “both the author and translator, as well as the work, should be included in blurb”. It seems to me the oppose votes above (eg., JM & PrecariousWorlds) are to the quality of the 2023 Booker Prize article (or just now “weak support“ from Kip), but that shouldn’t factor in here. So can we get these changed to Support? Thank you.Trauma Novitiate (talk) 18:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    At the time of writing the articles for both the book and the writer weren't great, I should have clarified that I was referring to all three, not just the Booker Prize (though I did think that a little more was needed apart from the list). They've much improved now and could be put up. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 19:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The article for the 2023 Booker Prize was also expanded upon. Golan1911 (talk) 20:07, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you PrecariousWorlds for taking another look at this. - Trauma Novitiate (talk) 20:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for calling it to my attention, should have clarified before PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I noticed that. Thank you for your work on this Golam1911 - Trauma Novitiate (talk) 20:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Depends. @Golan1911 may I unbold the booker prize article and change the target to be the book itself? Per ITN/R usually the target article is the winner and not the prize. That would make this a whole lot easier. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I think that would be great. Thank you. Golan1911 (talk) 20:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Can anyone add the article to the In The News section? If it is ready. Golan1911 (talk) 14:11, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Per ITN/R usually the target article is the winner and not the prize @Aaron Liu: While it seems to have been the de facto practice for Booker blurbs, I don't think it is formally noted anywhere. —Bagumba (talk) 15:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:ITNAWARDS: Unless otherwise noted, the winner of the prize is normally the target article. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:19, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. It's what I get for skimming it all these years. —Bagumba (talk) 17:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The novel's article passes muster; the other two are unobjectionable. Moscow Mule (talk) 02:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted Consensus exists that the blurb is supported. Schwede66 16:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Thanks for posting Schwede66. However my fellow ITN editors: this could’ve been posted 24 hours ago, and should’ve been. I marked it as “Ready” before the MotoGP World Championship item was marked Ready and posted. As the editor of the nomination Golan1911, I don’t know what your opinion is. But I checked back thru the archives. Two years ago is the last time the Booker Prize winner was posted to ITN. Here’s the link. The same argument that happened 2 years ago happened again now. Check out the archive for November 3, 2021. I see that Masem gives a very detailed explanation of how this ITN/R should work, just as it was above explained by this same editor. The target article in each case is the article about the novel that earned the prize. The book itself. Just like 2 years ago. Not the author and not the Booker Prize article. Per ITN/R “both the author and translator, as well as the work, should be included in blurb.” Can we get this altered to read that the book itself should be the target article for the Booker item if (or when) it is posted so that we don’t go another 2 years before we post this to ITN? Trauma Novitiate (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I unmarked your ready because when you marked this item as such, it definitely did NOT have consensus to post. Even if the opposers were opposing due to confusion about the proper target article, you do not post if we don’t have consensus to post. As for the blurb itself, I do not see what needs alteration. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:33, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I never said the blurb needs alteration. I said the ITN/R rationale needs alteration. You very clearly understand what the issue is here: and you already addressed it above with Muboshgu: “even though the event is what’s ITNR the target article would be what won the award”.
    I’m saying that in future, ITN editors should be able to go here Wikipedia:In the news/Recurring items and under the Booker Awards section see something like this:

    “even though the event is what’s ITNR the target article would be the work that won the award. Both the author and translator, as well as the work, should be included in blurb.”

    Clearly there’s a lot of confusion about this issue, both now and in years past. Muboshgu’s statement is the first comment made under this nomination and, imo, led to the initial confusion and many oppose votes.
    Yes it’s true I did mark it Ready, and I did it two different times. The first time I marked it Ready, there was not consensus. I was incorrect. However, I did mark it Ready a second time but only after consensus was reached, maybe 12 hours ago: it was at the same time editor Black Kite posted the RD for Terry Venables but before Bagumba posted the 2023 MotoGP World Championship winner (perhaps prematurely). - Trauma Novitiate (talk) 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The entire awards section in ITNR says the target article should be the prize winner unless otherwise noted. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:47, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah and that’s the point. Because in the case of the Booker Prize it’s not otherwise noted. The Booker Prize is awarded to a single book of fiction. So that’s what needs to be the target article. And it needs to say so explicitly in the ITNR. But hey it’s all good. I take it that now we’re just talking past each other, anyhow. So see you this time next year when we’ll be debating the same issues. Because I looked back through the archives re: Booker ITN nominations and it happens almost every year, the confusion, except last year when the nomination went stale. I’m finished talking about this unless anyone can tell me who’s the arbiter I can petition to get the wording changed on this ITN/R for the Booker, so as to help us out in the future. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 23:39, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you to the editors for your thoughtful suggestions and assistance in getting these articles reading for the ITN section.Golan1911 (talk) 22:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Golan1911[reply]
    My pleasure. I enjoyed the process. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 23:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 25[edit]

November 25, 2023 (2023-11-25) (Saturday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

Smoking ban scrapped to fund tax cuts[edit]

Article: Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products (Smoked Tobacco) Amendment Act 2022 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The incoming New Zealand government scraps the world's first generational smoking ban to fund tax cuts. (Post)
News source(s): New Zealand’s New Government Says It Will Scrap Smoking Ban The New York Times
Credits:

Article updated

This is causing quite a stir in New Zealand and the reason I'm nominating this is that last night's main TV news led with this article, focussing on the strong and widespread international reaction. Given that, and that the rather recent New Zealand legislation has already been copied by the UK government, indicates that it's got an impact far beyond domestic politics. Nominated for 25 November as it was on Saturday that the link to the tax cuts became known. Schwede66 08:37, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Marty Krofft[edit]

Article: Sid and Marty Krofft (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): MSN, Variety{
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

The World of Sid and Marty Krofft trippy children's program producers. He and his brother Sid were a major part of why the 70s was the best decade to be a kid. CoatCheck (talk) 06:51, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Russell Norman (restaurateur)[edit]

Article: Russell Norman (restaurateur) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Prominent restaurateur in Britain. Abishe (talk) 04:27, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, New, autopatrolled, start class article. Pretty well referenced with some behind paywalls (to me anyway) so AGF. Maybe could use a reference where it is stated his first book received the inaugural Waterstones Book of the Year award. Josey Wales Parley 20:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Re: Waterstone’s Book of the Year Award, the reference is Amelia Hill’s Guardian piece from November 24 which was already a reference being used, so an easy fix. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 13:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Admins willing to post ITN: BangJan1999 22:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Excellent work done on this article. It holds up well. Yes, some of the citations run up against paywalls. I’ll check to see if the web archive & the Wayback machine have anything available. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 06:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I tried to find some archived versions for the few references running up against a paywall, but no luck so far. However, not having access to these paywall articles doesn’t hurt this BLP’s accuracy, credibility, or legitimacy. It’s already very well sourced with references available to the ordinary reader. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 13:48, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - @Trauma Novitiate: @Joseywales1961: I apologise for citing paywall backed articles as I initially found those sources as credible references to the article and I obtained the information based on such paywall articles. I really understand that such paywall articles are not readily available to everyone due to limited access. I tried my best to add more references to the said article and hopefully it can match with the expectations of the readers and viewers. I take the blame and responsibility for not making more efforts in finding accessible references and citations when creating the article. I just messed up a bit there and I am sorry for that. I can guarantee that I have taken the information from such paywall sources. Abishe (talk) 13:58, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You don’t need to apologize. Using paywalled sources is not wrong at all as long as you’re not making the information up or replacing free sources with paywalled sources. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I second that. You certainly don’t need to apologize. Your work as an editor is first-class as your starting and editing of this article indicates. You have integrity, obviously. You even meticulously use ISSN’s in your references. I’ve not done that before, but maybe I need to. Thanks for your work. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 15:57, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Abishe, sorry I was away from editing for a few days, I certainly agree with the others above in that you have nothing to apologise for, using non free references is common and all I meant above was that I was assuming good faith as I couldn't check those references. Keep up your excellent work on this project and best wishes Josey Wales Parley 16:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted to RD. SpencerT•C 15:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Someone has added a yellow move tag. It has really flowery prose "paradigm shift" etc. Secretlondon (talk) 17:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Move tags are purple and do not prevent an article from being on the main page. That paragraph is the only one with flowery language so it should be good enough. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 24[edit]

November 24, 2023 (2023-11-24) (Friday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Posted) RD: Douglas Ahlstedt[edit]

Article: Douglas Ahlstedt (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Lyric tenor, who appeared in leading (and small) roles in the Americas and Europe, a member of the Met and the Deutsche Oper am Rhine. Long list of roles, and theatres. The article was already detailed and sourced! I exchanged a lost ref by something better, and a copied ref by the original. Private info was found in the obit. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support: article seems good enough. There’s an unsourced sentence at the end of the United States section about how well he performed on the gameshow, should we remove that? Aaron Liu (talk) 18:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I commented it out, couldn't find a ref. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:20, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Somalia joins the East African Community[edit]

Proposed image
Article: East African Community (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Somalia is admitted as the eighth member of the East African Community. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Somalia joins the East African Community as its eighth member.
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Major geopolitical development in East Africa, with the East African Community admitting Somalia after 11 years of negotiations. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 09:31, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please consider crediting (co-crediting?) ItzSyther if possible, who noted the need for updates on the talkpage before I edited the page. CMD (talk) 09:38, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done, thanks for noting! ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 09:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support - I do think this can potentially be notable enough to warrant a blurb, but only just. With the ongoing project of the East African Federation I think this could have quite a significant effect (though at risk of POV I would mention that it's very unlikely Somalia will be integrated into this IMO due to how unstable the state is, same as South Sudan or DRCongo) PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:16, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on notability but quality must be improved. Andrew says there is "a claim 15 years out of date". JM (talk) 00:31, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have boldly added more information to the two tagged sections and removed the tags. The outdated information noted relates to the early integration period (pre-expansion), I added a bit on the end of that enthusiasm before expansion began. I've also removed a bunch of cruft that had little to do with the topic. A general outdatedness in some areas may remain (not sure how this interacts with ITN requirements), although it's worth noting that in some cases issues simply stalled and continue to stall forever. CMD (talk) 02:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Congratulations, thanks a lot! ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 13:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Relatively unknown organisation without much influence.
Do we always post ascensions of countries to some organisations, even not famous?
I don't think so. Kirill C1 (talk) 15:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It has a ton of influence on East Africa. It's famous enough. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:11, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is the equivalent of the European Union for the African states, so definitely significant that a new country is introduced. Just because its not in the news as much as the EU doesn't make it less significant. Masem (t) 16:54, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The European Union is a massive confederation of global powers, the EAC is little more than a small regional forum PrecariousWorlds (talk) 17:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's among the most influential African organizations (with the African Union), with a much higher level of integration between members and prospects for federalization (although the last three members complicate that point). ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 17:37, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • the core group of the EAC makes some sense but Somalia's accession seems more like annexation of a failed state than a marriage of equals. See Eurasia Review for an eye-opening critique. A key issue is that Somalia is not part of the Swahili language region. Our article does not explain this. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    In term of personal opinions, I'd say everything past the first 5 members was an absolute mess that only prevented the "core" EAC from progressing towards a federation. In terms of Wikivoice, I don't think that's what belongs in the article (also the link doesn't work for me, unfortunately). ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia is supposed to summarise secondary sources with some analysis, rather than just presenting PR platitudes as if they are a sure thing. Note that the EAC has collapsed completely before and so the success of its plans can't be taken for granted. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:48, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course no future plan should be taken for granted (WP:CRYSTAL after all) but using the argument of "it collapsed before" to support this point is in the range of being OR ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 00:37, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, to me this excessive rate of expansion to barely-functioning states is only jeopardizing prospects of a Federation, but I'll leave it at that PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:17, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Ross McDonnell[edit]

Article: Ross McDonnell (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Irish Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Irish filmmaker. Article was recently created and needs work. He was missing for two weeks before parts of his remains were discovered on a beach in Queens, NY. Thriley (talk) 14:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Ron Hodges[edit]

Article: Ron Hodges (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://apnews.com/article/ron-hodges-dies-obituary-mets-fbf289ed74be7079624f16ac20f63451
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 240d:1a:4b5:2800:d95:482e:96cf:9ffa (talk • contribs) 18:01, 2023 November 24 (UTC)

November 23[edit]

November 23, 2023 (2023-11-23) (Thursday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

RD: Fathima Beevi[edit]

Article: Fathima Beevi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Hindu
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian jurist. First woman judge of the Supreme Court. Ktin (talk) 22:44, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Close, but seems a little bit of undue weight to the controversy section, without much detail about her legal career or judicial contributions. Also not sure what it means when it says Beevi "gave a clean chit to the law and order situation", which could use some clarification, as the rest of the section depends on understanding what this means. SpencerT•C 15:13, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Charles Peters[edit]

Article: Charles Peters (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NY Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Thriley (talk) 14:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Harald Hasselbach[edit]

Article: Harald Hasselbach (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  2-time Super Bowl champion and Grey Cup champion has died. Notable enough to have his name on the ticker (Post)
News source(s): ESPN
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Blurb not really necessary, but eligible for ticker.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:29, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose blurb, notable life, non-notable death. Also not a household name for a non-American/Canadian like me. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 23:06, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality, oppose blurb on notability. The article should be expanded, I find it too short for someone who, apparently, was so notable in his field. But he is far from having a blurb, from what Chatoic says. _-_Alsor (talk) 23:20, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Dublin riot[edit]

WP:NAC
Consensus unlikely to develop. BangJan1999 17:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2023 Dublin riot (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Dublin, a riot occurs after a woman and three children were stabbed outside a school. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Protesters riot in Dublin after a woman and three children were stabbed outside a school.
Alternative blurb II: ​ In Dublin, a mass stabbing is followed by a riot.
News source(s): RTE News, Irish News, Irish Independent, BBC News, New York Times, CNN, ABC (Australia), ABC (US), Al Jazeera
Credits:
Strong Support - Front page news, high quality article, major event. This is the quintessential ITN blurb PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support altblurb: A lot more out of the ordinary than elections or sports. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:36, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
^^ PrecariousWorlds (talk) 15:39, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Article is of decent quality and event is highly covered in the news. Moazfargal (talk) 15:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Seeing as how this is the biggest riot Ireland has seen in modern times (besides the 2006 Dublin riot), I think that this deserves a spot LynxesDesmond (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But it was only 200 people, which is quite small compared to other protests or riots like those in Hong Kong, India, or the US. Masem (t) 19:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But that's still larger than what we currently have in the ITN column. Plus Ireland has less people than any of the places you listed, so it logically follows that the rioter count would be smaller. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We don't force things into ITN because other blurbs are stale or lacking. And yes, with Ireland being a small country, a riot that involves a larger proportion of their population is still small scale. Masem (t) 21:11, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since this event does have a bigger impact than every current item, I don't see why we shouldn't "force" it in. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We do not force news to happen, simply to progress stale blurbs out of the box. That's been discussed multiple times on the talk page before and rejected. Masem (t) 21:48, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not forcing news to happen, it already is news. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:08, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is like saying "There's only 24 footballers in the Grey Cup Finale, so we shouldn't post it". It's the international reaction and significance that makes this notable. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Small-scale incident that didn't last very long. DarkSide830 (talk) 19:23, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It lasted longer than the Grey Cup. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:24, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    C'mon Aaron, you know that argument makes no sense. Obviously sports events rarely last as long as riots, but duration and volume or persons in a riot tends to have a big impact on the incident's effect. And you asked a question below about "damage" that I will answer. That answer is "no". A small-scale tropical storm can do that damage and might actually kill people. No one died, and while I can't say that this is a "small" incident for anyone effected, the effects seem fairly contained and the impacts of this event going forward are indeterminate. DarkSide830 (talk) 02:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The point is that sports events rarely have as much impact as better news. If there was a small-scale tropical storm in this month, that would be news! If there was one during the hurricane season, it wouldn't be because there are a ton of other, similar and larger news. The same does not go for these weeks, which is why we should post this. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support major event, lots of destruction, significant as a flash point of anti-immigrant sentiment in Ireland. Many politicians are reacting strongly negatively, so this is having repurcussions in Irish politics. Although I think we should have a blurb which explains the reasons ("stabbed by an Algerian immigrant") regardless of whether the reason is valid; the entire event is being characterized as a far-right anti-immigrant protest and the blurb ignores that. JM (talk) 21:05, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    On the proposed change to the blurb, the nationality of the suspect has not officially been released by the Gardaí. Conversely there are several reliable sources (New York Times, Daily Telegraph UK, The Guardian UK) who have reported on this being misinformation that precipitated the riot. As with other details surrounding the stabbings, until the Gardaí release the information and it is published in reliable sources, we cannot report upon it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:56, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Interestingly the article now states: He was later reported to be a man in his 50s who had lived in Ireland for 20 years, had become a naturalised Irish citizen in 2014, and had been living in homeless accommodation in Dublin’s north inner city. The origin country of the attacker has not been announced by the authorities. So we could at least put immigrant for context, or, like I said below, specify that the rioters believed the attacker was a MENA immigrant. I believe it's important to clarify that this riot is not just over a stabbing, its motivated by anti-immigrant sentiment. JM (talk) 23:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Although I support a blurb, I Oppose Altblurb II. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on which of the other two get posted. JM (talk) 07:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - front page around the world (NYT has this on its front page for example). We should let our sources determine significance, not our own personal opinions. nableezy - 22:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose 200 people is too small for ITN. Elisecars727 (talk) 22:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The amount of people participating in a protest shouldn't be the criteria for posting, only the coverage. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per above, a small-scale flash in the pan that could lead to further unrest, at which point we can always reintroduce. Kcmastrpc (talk) 22:53, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: What, exactly, do the current editors at ITN deem enough to post as news? I know there's quality and the vague principle of impact, but isn't 30+ shops, vehicles and infrastructure damaged impact enough? Aaron Liu (talk) 23:44, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Right now I believe the current standards for significance are too high. So something like this which is front page news and being talked about everywhere is being opposed as not significant enough - fine, if we had many more important things to blurb, but we don't. I've come to believe that standards for significance should be determined by volume of newsworthy events, with more news meaning higher significance standards to maintain the same influx of new blurbs. But I know some people here disagree because we've just discussed it not that long ago (I know Masem in particular strongly disagrees and considers it to be "forcing news" which I disagree with - it is news regardless). These beliefs apply here since I believe this blurb meets my current standards, considering all that I wrote above. I also believe people who say there are often too many sports blurbs should support this non-sports blurb. JM (talk) 00:48, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, the current standards seem to be "either have a massive lasting importance, or be a sports event". ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 09:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose good faith nom. A brief and nasty riot in a country that, at least in recent times, is not well known for that sort of thing. But the scale and numbers are not enough for ITN. Larger disturbances occur routinely all over the world and we pay no attention to them. Long term significance is likely low to nil. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Then also nominate the larger disturbances with similarly loaded emotion. It's often said that the solution to too much sports and elections is to nominate more news, and this is indeed news. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree, that's what I was considering saying. JM (talk) 01:41, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Wikipedia is not a news ticker and ITN shouldn't be one either. Not everything that gets enough news coverage for an article needs to be posted at ITN. I realize that is not a popular position in some quarters, but that's where I stand. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:44, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    What should In the news be then? The stated purpose is to highlight quality articles and help news people quickly find the Wikipedia article they're looking for. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:54, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Something being In The News shouldn't be a criteria in a section called...In The News? PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:07, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as a definitely newsworthy event and front-page news in many sources. Disagree with mentioning the alleged nationality of the suspect in the blurb, although agree that context is welcome. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 09:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    How do you propose contextualizing anti-MENA-immigrant riots without mentioning that the cause was the rioters' belief that the attack was perpetrated by a MENA immigrant? JM (talk) 11:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Saying "anti-immigrant riots" would make the point clear enough in my opinion. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 15:05, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Promoting something to ITN means it'll stay there for a good while. I don't see why we should give publicity to a very minor piece of disorder by a couple of hundred racists that has already largely disappeared from the news. Oh, and can we give it a rest with the "but it's so much more important than sport" stuff? That's not helping. Black Kite (talk) 17:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The 2023 Liberian election was barely covered and it's still up, this isn't a reason to oppose. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It was not a "very minor piece of disorder". Central Dublin was seriously damaged and disrupted and extra riot police are still on standby in the street to suppress any recurrence, which did happen, if you follow the details in the latest version of the article. And, it has not "largely disappeared from the news". Spideog (talk) 00:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I am bewildered as to how this hasn't been featured yet. This kind of hatred has been brewing for years in Ireland and this level of civil disorder is unprecedented. Salmoonlight (talk) 21:30, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. In the proposed blurb, I would add the word "major" ("In Dublin, a major riot occurs...") because it swelled from the original "between 100 and 200" in earlier versions of the article to 500, which is huge in Irish terms (it is a small country). This 500 is documented with citations in later versions of the article since the original proposal here in ITN. Riots are extremely rare in Ireland and are not on this scale. Spideog (talk) 23:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Doesn't matter if it is a rare event in a country, or if its proportion of those involved is larger for the given country, it was still domestic event that had an irrational domestic response that was quelled quickly. It does not compare to the type of riots or protests that we have features in contrast to those that we have rejected. Masem (t) 23:57, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It would be interesting to watch you trying to prove convincingly that the response was "irrational" as opposed to simply your drive-by opinion. The havoc called for the expressions of horror and disgust that followed. Your attempt to minimise its significance by referring twice to "domestic" news is meaningless: the invention of the telescope by Galileo was domestic news in Italy and 9/11 in the United States was also a domestic event. The term "domestic" is a useless indicator of notability. Leaders of the United Kingdom and France reacted to it and it received widespread coverage in international media: were their responses also "irrational"? The event was highly notable in Irish terms which cannot be calibrated by misleading comparisons to countries with much more violent societies. Spideog (talk) 00:22, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    People reacted to misinformation before getting confirmation. That's irrational behavior, and actually very common across a range of issues nowadays. Masem (t) 00:24, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    People acted irrationally when they attacked the United States Federal Capitol Building, and that is still in the news three years later. Responses to the Irish riot by media and public figures internationally, not to mention the Irish public, were entirely rational. Spideog (talk) 00:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe Masem is calling the riots irrational, not the response to the riots irrational, and that you're misinterpreting them. But I suppose only Masem knows for sure. JM (talk) 00:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if you are right, irrational motives are not a helpful measure of newsworthiness. How many major wars and other major historical events have been ignited by irrationality? Spideog (talk) 00:52, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Ask Masem. JM (talk) 01:01, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, those that rioted acted irrationally. I am non-plussed by the kudzu of Reaction sections that are just international leaders sending the equivalent of their condolences, without any type of actual participation (like, actually sending aid in terms of people, money, or property), a long-standing problem with event articles. The fact that none of the Reactions are anything but simple statements leads to how little impact this even had on the overall world, though I am not judging my ITN oppose based on that. Simply that a riot of even 500 people with some small-scale level of vandalism and injuries due to people acting on misinformation is not really something that we'd post. Masem (t) 00:57, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are inventing personal criteria for ITN inclusion out of thin air with all your talk of irrationality and dismissing international leader behaviour (no aid, no money) and dreaming these pseudo-criteria might be taken seriously.
These "yardsticks" of yours are so random and left-field you could as well dismiss any candidate for ITN because beetles were not observed during the event, "so it is not newsworthy".
Going by your most recent comment, it seems necessary to repeat the fact that "small-scale level of vandalism" is incorrect. I already corrected you on this point: it didn't take, apparently. Repeating the error won't magically make it true. Spideog (talk) 01:57, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's currently 11-8 in Support (including the Support below this), which is in the unclear range. I'm not going to post it because I commented. I'd argue that it's disappeared from the news tickers, outside Ireland, though, which could suggest that its impact is marginal. I'd also suggest that if it is posted, the far-right nature of the riot needs to be in the blurb; this wasn't ordinary people who just happened to riot. Black Kite (talk) 16:39, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If the blurb is going to call the riot far-right it definitely needs to point out what triggered it: the fact that the attacker was an immigrant and perhaps even the rioters' belief that the immigrant was a MENA immigrant. "Far-right" is so vague, it doesn't even tell us why the rioters rioted about this particular stabbing. It's like blurbing J6 without saying that they were motivated by their belief in election fraud. JM (talk) 07:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't look like consensus to me. Schwede66 18:15, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Nableezy.
𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 08:05, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 22[edit]

November 22, 2023 (2023-11-22) (Wednesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

  • Sam Altman returns as CEO of American artificial intelligence company OpenAI, only days after being dismissed by the company's Board of Directors on November 17. The surprise dismissal had resulted in major pushback, with 95% of company workers saying that they would quit if Altman was not brought back as CEO. (BBC News)

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Politics and elections

RD: Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie[edit]

There is no way that anyone could reference the three unreferenced sections before this rolls off the page. Schwede66 18:04, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NY Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Thriley (talk) 03:26, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. (Pretty) good article; long and referenced. Some paragraphs are a bit long but that's far too picky for ITN. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 06:55, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) 2023 Dutch general election[edit]

Proposed image
Article: 2023 Dutch general election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Party for Freedom led by Geert Wilders (pictured) is the largest party in the 2023 Dutch general election. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In the Netherlands, the Party for Freedom, led by Geert Wilders (pictured) receives a plurality of votes in the general election.
News source(s): [7]
Credits:

Article needs updating
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Exit polls show a pvv victory. Most votes will be counted in the next few hours. Haris920 (talk) 22:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wait a bit for the official count then. Article looks alright. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:47, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait I just looked through the article and it seems that this round of voting is just the start as there are likely to be 16+ parties with seats and so the permutations needed to form a coalition will be large. Given what happened in Spain, perhaps we should wait until a government is formed. Andrew🐉(talk) 00:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • support once full results is ready Shadow4dark (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support once the electoral authority releases full results This post was made by orbitalbuzzsaw gang (talk) 01:29, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support once results are there (also for some reason the reply button is broken?) ChaotıċEnby(talk) 02:30, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Changing my vote to not ready, not enough prose and some sections like "Results" aren't really well-organized at all. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 10:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quality issues Like some other recent elections, the last half of the article are nearly bare tables and charts. There needs to be more prose. And Andrew's point of how this gets resolved, in that they need a collalition with 75 seats (as I see it), will not happen overnight, but perhaps I'm not clear on this system. --Masem (t) 02:39, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think they'll get their coalition anytime soon, and it's not even a given that they'll manage to make one. If it takes too long, from what I understand of ITN/R, the nomination of a Prime Minister (either Wilders or the leader of a potential grand coalition) should be made into a separate blurb. Otherwise, if it's done in the next few days, we could update the blurb to include it. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 03:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Last time, it took them 299 days to figure out a coalition. And it seems quite possible that the largest party will not be part of it this time. That's what happened in Spain and so our initial announcement of a winner was misleading. In such systems, it seems better to wait until the new coalition and leader is established. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:05, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, that's why we should be careful of only mentioning they received the most votes/seats rather than implying a "win" or definitive leadership of some sort. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 11:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Election results are ITNR. The article looks decent, and also the aftermath section is informative and explains a lot about possible coalitions. Post now, and if a government without PPV is eventually formed later, post that as well, as we did with Spain recently. --Tone 09:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ITNR, and who knows how long the parties will take to sort out the coalition government. Per above, we can always post an update or new blurb if something significant changes. Kcmastrpc (talk) 11:42, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per ITNR. Article quality is adequate. I am not unsympathetic to the point about likely delays in forming a government. But the election results are what we routinely blurb. And irrespective of the likelihood of Mr. Wilders or his party being a part of the next cabinet, they did quite well and the results of this election have been front page news globally. If it's newsworthy in its own right, we can blurb the next government separately once formed. But for now, the election results are the story. Let's get this up. -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:56, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The article quality is not ready, the bottom half is mostly tables without prose. This needs to be fixed before posting. Masem (t) 18:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    While I supported earlier on, the article could indeed benefit of some more text in the said lines. If anyone wants to give it a go, some suggestions:
    • Parties: not much to be added here, relevant things are in the Background already
    • Debates: again, nothing essential missing
    • Opinion polls: a couple of sentences explaining in words what the graph says
    • Results: some summary as well, such as Party A won more than last time, Party B lost many seats, Party C is new to the Parliament etc. Then, the Aftermath is good.
    Tone 22:10, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not ready a lot of tables, not so much prose. In the section on political parties I would almost prefer prose, prose that should also be in the results section whose table on results by provinces is empty. _-_Alsor (talk) 23:29, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the blurb after the official announcement. 3000MAX (talk) 07:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not ready. As stated by @Alsoriano97 and @Masem, there's too many tables and little prose. 🔥Jalapeño🔥 Stupid stuff I did 09:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality Virtually no prose on the campaign/election itself, it's almost all tables in between background and aftermath. The Kip 19:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait The article has some serious issues:
  1. The map and the proposed alternative do not suit the Dutch system of counting votes at a national level. The map gives the false impression that the PVV gained a large majority by winning so many electoral districts and could govern the country alone. 37 of 150 seats is far below a majority. The PVV needs to find at least 2 coalition partners.
  2. The graph shows a weighted average, which fails to show the sudden changes at the end of the campaign.
  3. The sections campaign and opinion polls fail to describe what happened. What caused the dive of BBB and NSC in the polls? What happened in the final weeks of the campaign before the sudden rise of PVV?
Uwappa (talk) 09:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
1- The precedent for Dutch politics has always been the electoral district map. There is just no other way to display it clearly.
3- I have added a paragraph to the aftermath explaining this. Haris920 (talk) 21:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Return of the Altman[edit]

The issue is not considered notable for ITN. Schwede66 16:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Removal of Sam Altman from OpenAI (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Sam Altman returns as CEO of OpenAI after an internal crisis (Post)
News source(s): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67494165
Credits:

All over the news, attracting huge reader interest, article looks pretty good. It's a unique, interesting news story that would greatly diversify what we post and be actually useful to the general reader. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 12:02, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose not significant. CEO comes back after 4 days being fired. intra-corporate drama. JM (talk) 21:51, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Israel-Hamas ceasefire and prisoner exchange[edit]

No consensus to post. Stephen 22:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2023 Israel–Hamas ceasefire (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A four-day ceasefire and prisoner exchange is agreed between Israel and Hamas. (Post)
News source(s): Washington Post The Guardian
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Yes. I know it's covered by ongoing, but it's a significant development in the war. Moazfargal (talk) 10:21, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional oppose - I think this should be blurbed on notability grounds, but as of now the link directs you to a minor paragraph. There needs to be a lot of expansion on the article in order to post this. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 11:55, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@PrecariousWorlds: I have expanded the section since. According to Wikipedia:ITNCRIT, I think the update is enough. Moazfargal (talk) 14:16, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Changing my vote to Support PrecariousWorlds (talk) 15:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on grounds of ongoing entry – robertsky (talk) 12:03, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Supplement ongoing as mentioned by Andrew above as a good compromise between full blurbing and nothing. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 17:07, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 21[edit]

November 21, 2023 (2023-11-21) (Tuesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Science and technology

(Posted) RD: Tertius Delport[edit]

Article: Tertius Delport (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.news24.com/news24/community-newspaper/pe-express/da-founding-member-dr-tertius-delport-dies-at-age-84-20231123
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Former cabinet minister and CODESA negotiator.  Lefcentreright  Discuss  18:27, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Jerónimo Saavedra[edit]

Article: Jerónimo Saavedra (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): El Mundo
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Spanish politician and academic. First President of the Canary Islands after the establishment of the autonomous communities system and pioneer LGTBI politician. I've expanded the article, added more sources and the basics are there. I keep adding content with RS sources. _-_Alsor (talk) 12:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, this article was ready IMO since 22/11. _-_Alsor (talk) 10:23, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: S. S. Badrinath[edit]

Article: S. S. Badrinath (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Times of India
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Founder of Sankara Nethralaya.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 06:37, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) First North Korean satellite launch[edit]

No consensus to post. Stephen 22:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Malligyong-1 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ North Korea launches the spy satellite Malligyong-1 into orbit. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ North Korea claims to have launched its first spy satellite, Malligyong-1, prompting tensions with South Korea.
Alternative blurb II: ​ North Korea launches the spy satellite Malligyong-1, leading to the termination of a 2018 agreement with South Korea.
News source(s): AP News BBC Le Monde
Credits:

ITN/R as a country's first successful orbital launch (by WP:ITN/R#Space exploration) (erratum: apparently only the first spy satellite, not the first satellite), work still needed to update the article for the last launch, which was (claimed to be) successful unlike the previous two. Open to rewording the blurb. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 00:45, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 20[edit]

November 20, 2023 (2023-11-20) (Monday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Eddie Linden[edit]

Article: Eddie Linden (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Scottish poet and magazine editor. Page looks alright for RD. Ollieisanerd (talk • contribs) 16:24, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Annabel Giles[edit]

Article: Annabel Giles (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, BBC News
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

British television and radio presenter, actress, model and novelist. Fats40boy11 (talk) 20:07, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Nina Katerli[edit]

Article: Nina Katerli (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Radio Free Europe
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

– Thriley (talk) 18:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Willie Hernández[edit]

Article: Willie Hernández (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [8]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

– Muboshgu (talk) 17:18, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: John E. Walsh[edit]

Article: John E. Walsh (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Boston Globe, Axios
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

American political advisor. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 05:50, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Sara Tavares[edit]

Article: Sara Tavares (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [9]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Portuguese singer, composer, guitarist and percussionist. Needs a bit of work. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 11:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Joss Ackland[edit]

Article: Joss Ackland (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Needs the sourcing issues sorting first, particularly in the filmography section. SchroCat (talk) 07:17, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Double off-topic. Curbon7 (talk) 21:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
WP:NOTFORUM Someone needs to take Andrew Davidson to WP:ANI at some point. BangJan1999 18:33, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

RD: Aman Tuleyev[edit]

Article: Aman Tuleyev (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Kazinform
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Governon of Kemerovo oblast, candidate in the 1991, 1996 and 2000 Russian presidential election. Андрій ЯЧ (talk) 07:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 19[edit]

November 19, 2023 (2023-11-19) (Sunday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) RD: Colette Maze[edit]

Article: Colette Maze (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Radio Classique
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: French pianist who was born when Debussy was still alive, and recorded his music at age 109. There were already plenty of references, but little prose . I added some, help with more detail welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Carlton Pearson[edit]

Article: Carlton Pearson (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [10]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's Comments: Pentecostal pastor who believed in universal reconciliation; article needs a bit of citation work before being posted. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 21:52, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak oppose some lines and paras are unsourced.
_-_Alsor (talk) 23:32, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2023 League of Legends World Championship[edit]

There is consensus that this item is not notable for ITN purposes. In addition, there are article quality concerns. Schwede66 00:35, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Nominator's comments: Contrary to most esports, the 2023 League of Legends World Championship has received quite a lot of coverage in mainstream international press, with some examples listed above. Total viewership is not yet known as much of it is from China, but as an indication, recent League world finals have reached up to 200 million concurrent viewers. Curbon7 (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll go ahead and stay neutral on notability for now, as while I'm not entirely sold on esports being wildly notable, the coverage is undeniable. However, I will say oppose on quality - the article's a table-fest, with little to no coverage of the proceedings themselves. Most prose is limited to the lead or the stage/tourney format explanations. The Kip 23:09, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait Those are very impressive numbers, so I checked the article for a recap of the big game and found just one sentence in the third paragraph of a relatively bulky lead. It says essentially as much as the proposed blurb does. That's hardly a substantial update, even if T1 played an exceptionally good game and/or won an impressively large purse (it very well may have). InedibleHulk (talk) 23:12, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Might sound surprising from me, but the answer to "ITN has too much sports" shouldn't be to blurb less sports, but to blurb more other things. Notability is certainly there. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 23:34, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above Lukt64 (talk) 00:22, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reluctant Support - Per @Chaotic Enby, but there is seriously an undue weight towards sports on ITN at the moment. This is getting kind of ridiculous PrecariousWorlds (talk) 05:39, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If we post this and the ITN/R below, 3 out of 4 blurbs would be sports-related PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We cannot control how ITNR events happen, outside of those within the same sporting field (eg if it was four blurbs all about car racing, that might be a problem and we'd likely condense to one or two which I think we have in the past). Masem (t) 13:19, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My point is that we should address the lack of diversity in ITN and seek to blurb more stories that are useful to the general reader, hence the 'regretful' comment about how ITN has become a glorified Sports and Elections ticker PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:02, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
People should be discussing this on the talk page if they want it changed. JM (talk) 14:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah PrecariousWorlds (talk) 14:29, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some sport results have real-world issues, hence the development of ITN/R, but I agree this one doesn't. It occurs to me that support for this is relevant to enwiki's core editors, which the real world, again, isn't. See also: the posting of Sam Bankman-Fried. Black Kite (talk) 18:57, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Once again, Wikipedia talk:In the news if you want to propose your constantly-talked-about removal of sports events, but as it’s almost certain you’ll once again not follow through on your complaints, I strongly advise you to simply stop commenting on sports items and spare us the hassle. The Kip 19:13, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Sports doesn't belong in an encyclopedia? Give me a break man. DarkSide830 (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The claim that sports are "frivolous entertainments", on top of being pretty condescending, is a value judgement and not how we should decide whether something is in the news. And, even though we are definitely giving them undue weight in ITN currently, it doesn't mean that they don't have a place here at all by your made-up criterion. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 00:49, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    When I have time this week I’ll try to begin gathering diffs for the ANI case we’ve consistently discussed. The Kip 02:13, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Editors wanting further discussion should note that there's already a fresh discussion about Revising sports recurring items. I made a suggestion there... Andrew🐉(talk) 08:24, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Withdrawal of support I have no reason to support this anymore, WP:UNDUE Lukt64 (talk) 17:17, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Black Kite. That we feature sport events that probably should not be featured shouldnt mean we also need to feature e-sports events to balance that out. I actually agree that the ITNR sports/elections stories that get posted here are not what should be the focus of that box, I think we need to focus on front page stories, but this aint that. I get why it was nominated, I understand the logic, I just think its going about fixing this in the wrong way, and giving more attention to these frankly trivial events rather than less. We ignore front page stories everyday here, I dont think we need to go to section B12 page 3 to balance out the ITNR stories that get a free pass on this page. nableezy - 18:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    ItN us not a newsticker, but instead to showcase quality articles about recent events in the news. We can argue significance for an event like this (and while I do think esports have been around long enough that we should consider including them but I recognize the counterarguments on that, as well as the poor quality of this article) but we are not here to promote only those stories that make headlines; this has been proposed before and not found consensus. We should be open to more stories that aren't typically covered on the front page of the news, but provide a quality article and something interesting to the reader. Masem (t) 19:18, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Dear Masem, I know your position on this. As I have repeatedly told you, I disagree with what you think is a. the history of ITN, or b. the purpose of ITN. And given ITNC is a place devoid of any governing policy or guideline, I repeat my disagreement with you and see no reason that either of us needs to attempt to convince the other. nableezy - 20:59, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Coverage is there online sporadically but almost nowhere in traditional news media; expected since esports is an emerging field and this is one of the many championships therein but we cannot jump ahead ofthe curve, need to gauge significance when the media treats these as such. Gotitbro (talk) 19:00, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional issue The quality isn't there either for ITN, it's a small amount of prose followed by a slew of tables. We would expect a prose summary of the final for any other sport; this does not exist here. Black Kite (talk) 19:07, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I’m surprised this hasn’t been noted more often, I cited it in my vote up top - regardless of notability, the article’s not even close to front-page-quality at the moment. The Kip 19:14, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per above discussions on coverage in mainstream media, as well as the sorry state of the article. The final needs an adequate prose summary, the same as any other sporting event. SounderBruce 20:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per above. Centuries123 (talk) 00:08, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RD: Hannes Strydom[edit]

Article: Hannes Strydom (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments South African Rugby player.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 13:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Prose could use some expansion besides listing teams/appearances. The only mention of his position comes in tables and the infobox. SpencerT•C 23:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • With only 270 words of prose, this wikibio seems a bit too stubby. Any more to write about him? Perhaps an expansion to explain what is in the table under "Test history"? Elaboration of his early/personal life (with REFs)? Also, he was inducted into the University of Pretoria Sports Hall of Fame, but the wikibio has no mention of his attending this university or what he did while he played for this university -- this gap in coverage of his life should be filled. --PFHLai (talk) 16:52, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 110th Grey Cup[edit]

Proposed image
Article: 110th Grey Cup (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Canadian football, the Montreal Alouettes defeat the Winnipeg Blue Bombers to win the 110th Grey Cup (most valuable player Cody Fajardo pictured). (Post)
News source(s): CBC, Sportsnet
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Article needs updates regarding the game itself, and I'll add the MVP once announced. The Kip 02:54, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2023 Argentine general election[edit]

Proposed image
Javier Milei
Article: 2023 Argentine general election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Javier Milei (pictured) is elected President of Argentina. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Javier Milei (pictured) is elected President of Argentina in the runoff, defeating Sergio Massa.
News source(s): LaNacion
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Massa has conceded. BastianMAT (talk) 23:21, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support good enough on quality. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Yikes indeed. The article is a little table-heavy, but comprehensive and well-referenced. Still lots of potential for improvement, but enough for ITN. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 12:42, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Rosalynn Carter[edit]

Article: Rosalynn Carter (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Washington Post, Carter Center, NY Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: A bit of sourcing work and verification needed, but article is quite well-written and well-referenced Mooonswimmer 20:19, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Couple quick fixes need to be done, but apart from that the article looks good to go. Terribly sad loss. Praying for President Carter. estar8806 (talk) ★ 20:46, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality as the Awards and honours section is still very unsourced. Once quality issues are fixed, support RD, neutral on blurb - depends on the level of media attention given to her death (state funeral, etc.) ChaotıċEnby(talk) 22:09, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem as if the general consensus is against a blurb, but to answer your question on media attention of her death, she is currently front and center on the home pages of NBC, ABC, CBS, AP, CNN, etc. BhamBoi (talk) 22:23, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like a lot until we realize even CNN is run from Manhattan now. That's not to say the outside world isn't writing about her life today, too. You just wouldn't know it from that bowl of alphabet soup. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why Manhattan specifically? Hasn't CNN always been an American news network? ChaotıċEnby(talk) 12:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know why so many companies started in Manhattan, but now I figure it's a case of "nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd". It does have a certain ooh-la-la. CNN was always American, but formerly more centred on the CNN Center in Atlanta (which still exists, but more like a WBD appendage than another heart and soul of TBS).
Also, I may have misunderstood you earlier, but should make something else clear: No level of corporate media empiricism is concentrated or widespread enough to dictate whether an iconic screen legend gets a state funeral afterward. That's a job for the District of Columbia. It and the Columbia Broadcasting System share a common nominal ancestor (now branded as an Italian), but the less we go down that rabbit hole, the better. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What does this have to do with anything? JM (talk) 22:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In a nutshell, one mustn't always accept the viewpoint of five companies from one borough of one city in one state as indicative of what the world (or even America) is watching. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's true. Although they are (fortunately or unfortunately) considered major RS so what they publish determines what is WP:DUE from the American perspective even if they don't actually represent America at all. JM (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't saying that, but more the opposite: if she has a state funeral, the story will be much more prevalent in media, and a death blurb would be more relevant. Not that media decide whether she'll have a state funeral, of course. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 23:40, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Nicaragua Miss Universe[edit]

Consensus to post a beauty competition will not develop. Stephen 22:58, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Miss Universe 2023 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Sheynnis Palacios of Nicaragua is crowned winner of Miss Universe 2023. (Post)
News source(s): [11]
Credits:
 37.252.92.113 (talk) 13:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per PrecariousWorlds below JM (talk) 19:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Masem. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 22:11, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Nicaragua OAS[edit]

There is consensus that article quality is not up to scratch and over the last three days, there has been near zero attempt to address the maintenance tags. If there is a sudden burst of activity and the maintenance tags get removed, please ping me and I will look to reopen this. But until such time, there is no point other editors spending time analysising the situation. Schwede66 20:31, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: Organization of American States (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Nicaragua officially leaves the Organization of American States. (Post)
News source(s): [12]
Credits:
 37.252.92.113 (talk) 13:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
2 Nicaragua Blurbs, 1 Oppose - Unfortunately I don't think this is garnering significant coverage/attention and Nicaragua leaving doesn't seem to have much impact. We also don't usually blurb Miss Universe contests, so Oppose to both PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:08, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update pending, i can agree. It's 1 sentence i added. However a major continental body exit is notable. Brexit apart, even, say, latvia exit is notbale.37.252.92.113 (talk) 01:12, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The OAS is much less of a notable and significant institution than the EU. It is little more than a regional forum whetheras the European Union could practically be considered a Confederation. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 11:19, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I dont see why our standards for blurbing international organizations should be "EU level". ITN seems to continuously trend toward blurbing the absolute minumum amount of material. That's why we recently went a week without a single blurb being posted. JM (talk) 11:29, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
of course it must be the standard. _-_Alsor (talk) 15:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why should it be? Who ever decided that? ChaotıċEnby(talk) 15:04, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just read European Union. _-_Alsor (talk) 15:14, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That answers exactly zero of my questions, and saying "just read [article]" is honestly not very respectful. Why must the standard for blurbing international organizations be that they should be "EU level"? The European Union article says nothing about what we should or should not do on ITN. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 16:01, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not necessary that something that can be ITNR should be explicitly listed as INT-worthy somewhere. The EU article shows the unquestionable economic, social, political, banking, monetary, diplomatic, historical and human rights protection relevance of the European Union. I say that, before something that resembles it... the EU can be used as a standard of relevance. _-_Alsor (talk) 16:13, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still doesn't answer why the ITN standard must be that high. Of course the EU is extremely relevant, but why should that be the bar to pass? ChaotıċEnby(talk) 16:32, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which one do you propose? _-_Alsor (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Including the OAS and other international organizations of that scale? In any case, me proposing another criterion still doesn't mean that the "EU only" criterion has ever been an actual standard like you're suggesting, or anything more than your own proposal. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 01:05, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never said it was the actual standard, I said it should be the standard. A proposal _-_Alsor (talk) 13:20, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree. A country leaving a major international organization is definitely notable. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 15:03, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support on notability per Alsor. Quality must be addressed JM (talk) 20:52, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support on notability, oppose on quality. Many citations still lacking. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 15:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on notability, oppose on quality. We've covered Brexit quite well on ITN. While OAS is less integrated than the EU, a country leaving the organization is still an important story. A dedicated article explaining the background would be in place. --Tone 16:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) Cricket World Cup[edit]

Articles: 2023 Cricket World Cup final (talk · history · tag) and 2023 Cricket World Cup (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In cricket, Australia defeat India in the final to win the World Cup. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The Cricket World Cup concludes with Australia defeating India in the final.
News source(s): ESPNcricinfo
Credits:

Article updated
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 37.252.92.113 (talk) 13:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Match is still going on. PrinceofPunjab (talk) 15:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Australia have won, in an upset. Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:09, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Match finished. Congrats Australia on the win. 1solo2 (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Prose for the match added, also ENGVAR altblurb. Black Kite (talk) 17:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Australia has won the 2023 Cricket World Cup in one of the biggest upsets in cricket history. India Waalaa (talk) 18:38, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - the usual issue of a table within a table for the "route to the final" section, which is a MOS:ACCESS violation. Once that's dealt with, good to go. As an aside, I'd hardly describe it as "one of the biggest upsets in cricket history" as stated above... India were favourites on home soil, but anyone who follows cricket will know that you never write Australia off, and this is their sixth title now. Colour me not excessively surprised!  — Amakuru (talk) 18:50, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support VIBHAATH GUDTROT (talk) 18:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted. I've fixed the above ACCESS issue myself, and no other issues - it's ITN/R, good prose and support !votes here. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 19:33, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I'm surprised this was posted so quickly - both articles need proper updating - there are paragraphs in both which are in the present or future tenses rather than the past. Bcp67 (talk) 19:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Only the bolded article is required to conform to quality considerations, and I didn't see anything terrible there myself. I agree it's a fairly bare-bones article at present, definitely start class, but that's all it needs to be for ITN as long as there aren't missing references, orange tags or an absence of prose about the actual news item itself. Where are the present/future paragraphs you mention? Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 21:40, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks like they all have been updated now! Bcp67 (talk) 12:11, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not opposing this blurb since it's ITN/R, but I think we should really have a discussion about how the current criteria mean that half our blurbs end up being sports events. ITN is definitely skewed in terms of news prevalence. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 22:06, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone's paranoid about ITN becoming a US/UK politics ticker, so instead we've chosen to become a 'disasters and sports ticker', vastly less useful for most people. For a section called 'In The News' we don't actually cover what's, you know, actually In The News very often. I think we need to have a discussion on making ITN actually useful for the general reader rather than strictly adhering to an extremely arbitrary criteria. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 22:33, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, if you want to propose a change, go to WT:ITN and propose it. See if you get consensus. Complaining on individual nominations isn't particularly helpful and definitely won't result in any sort of change. Secondly, sports stories are in the news - most media feature them quite prominently and in general they are of interest to a large swathe of the population too. The cricket world cup has exceeded the page views of the Israel-Hamas war by a large margin for the whole of the last month. And of all the sports events to be annoyed about, this is an odd one - the cricket world cup is really a big deal. in India in particular, the world's most populated country, this event is the single most significant sporting fixture on the calendar, ahead of anything else.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:55, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For the record I actually Support this nom for the reasons you said, my main point is that we have a massive lack of variety in what we post that often doesn't align with what is In The News PrecariousWorlds (talk) 11:18, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly have not seen the Indian news yesterday. AryKun (talk) 10:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is probably the wrong nomination to bring this issue up; I do think some sporting events should probably not be ITN/R, but this is a World Cup - the top event - in one of the world's most popular sports, which only takes place once every four years. Black Kite (talk) 08:28, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again I don't really think this shouldn't be ITN/R, I was just remarking how we had very strict criteria for anything non-sports related which led to sport stories (even big ones like this) being the biggest component of what we post. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 23:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Sanjay Gadhvi[edit]

Article: Sanjay Gadhvi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Indian Express
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Fahads1982 (talk) 13:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 18[edit]

November 18, 2023 (2023-11-18) (Saturday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Posted) RD: S. Venkitaramanan[edit]

Article: S. Venkitaramanan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): LiveMint
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian former RBI Governor. Article might benefit from a round of edits. I will work on it shortly in case no one gets to it before me. Edits done. Article has shaped into a decent C-class biography. Good to go to mainpage / RD. Ktin (talk) 06:43, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Daisaku Ikeda[edit]

Article: Daisaku Ikeda (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Death announced 19 November. Thriley (talk) 20:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: David Del Tredici[edit]

Article: David Del Tredici (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NY Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American composer. Winner of the Pulitzer Prize for Music and was a Guggenheim and Woodrow Wilson fellow. Thriley (talk) 15:57, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) SpaceX Starship[edit]

Consensus to post is unlikely to develop.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 05:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: SpaceX Starship Second Integrated Flight Test (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ SpaceX Starship launches, becoming the most powerful rocket in history. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ SpaceX Starship launches before losing communication, becoming the most powerful rocket ever launched
Alternative blurb II: ​ SpaceX successfully launches Starship to orbit, before losing communication.
Credits:

The most powerful rocket ever launched. In the last test flight, the ship exploded before reaching orbit or even separating. In this test flight, all 33 engines survived (the most amount of engines ever on a rocket), a brand new hot-staging system managed to successfully separate Starship and Super Heavy, and orbit was reached. An incredible milestone in the history of human flight, not to mention being front page news almost everywhere. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support once article quality improves a bit (more information is being released). Clearly ITN and despite the test not reaching all of it's stated objectives, it's a huge achievement which represents a significant milestone towards colonizing the solar system. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not opposed to posting any sort of space exploration items on ITN, but given the grand picture of what would be required, I have a hard time reading your claim of a significant milestone as anything other than hyperbole. Perhaps you could elaborate further on your point and on how you perceive the significance of this item. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 15:40, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    SpaceX Starship is the largest and most powerful rocket in history by virtually every metric, and is set to return humans to the Moon as part of the Artemis program. This is a big step forward in spaceflight. Not only that, but the amount of news coverage alone and reader interest is enough to make this notable. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 16:21, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a rocket that has yet to succeed and hasn't actually taken a payload; its capabilities for doing almost everything promised are still on-paper; very much the "hyperbole" that Walt mentioned. By which metric, no, it's far, far from the "most powerful," since Sea Dragon comes to mind... Or any of the post-Apollo Nova concepts. Raw coverage & interest alone doesn't merit posting every single failure; this is ITN, not a corporate press release office. - Nottheking (talk) 17:39, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Sea Dragon was a concept and never actually built so I don't really see the comparison here since we just witnessed the largest rocket ever built fly to space. The stated primary objectives of this launch was to have a successful launch and separation of the second stage reaching orbit. While the orbit wasn't completed, SpaceX always sets the bar high for tests to push their engineering teams to deliver iterative improvements on each flight. https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-second-test-launch-nasa-congratulations -- while many news outlets are calling this a failure, many experts see this flight as a success.

    Obviously this flight is not being promoted as a success by MSM, and I can't speak to why they would put spin on this story. Nevertheless, I'll be interested for the ITN posting in the event they hit every objective. I predict many of the objections to it will be based on, "nothing new to see here, they've already done most of these things." I suppose we can just wait and see. Kcmastrpc (talk) 01:01, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the articles that I see covering this say that it exploded shortly after reaching space, and considered a failure. eg [13], [14]. Masem (t) 14:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also not seeing how ITNR works here. This was the second test of that rocket model, so even granting that SpaceX being its own "country", that first ITNR for space exploration doesn't work. Masem (t) 14:34, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... - As Masem said, the spacecraft went kablooey again. Now if that was understood and considered to be part of the mission objectives, then okay; but from what I understood, one of the primary objectives was to conduct a partial orbit and it was not able to reach orbit insertion. The mission profile was an hour and a half long, and it got only eight minutes into its flight plan. Duly signed, ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 14:28, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, also Not ITN/R How is this substantially different from the first flight test? Getting all 33 engines to light & separated appears to be all that changed from the first test flight. Which also brings to the point of claiming ITN/R; if we go and check, we see just three criteria:
  • A country conducting its first successful indigenous orbital launch
  • The launch of space stations or installation of new major components thereof
  • Arrival of spacecraft (to lunar orbit and beyond) at their destinations
This does not fit under any such category. While I am assuming good faith that the poster thought that a deprecated criteria still existed, ("first and last launch of any rocket") this likewise isn't even the first such test. Since we have prior events to go on, it wouldn't be surprising if this is followed by yet more failed tests in 2024; posting this would basically indicate that Wikipedia intends to post every single failure, at which point ITN becomes more of a press release office for a private company. - Nottheking (talk) 17:25, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the two votes above. Unmanned launches aren’t much of a milestone anymore, and it’s not even the first test of this specific rocket. The Kip 17:41, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Already posted the launch of the rocket system once (probably should not have) and nothing significant enough has happened to denote every minor error correction from the former on ITN. Gotitbro (talk) 19:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: the flight was not successful, and no major records (such as "largest non-nuclear explosion") were set. The only records set on this flight were "most engines ever lit at takeoff" and "tallest rocket ever launched". It didn't achieve the primary mission objectives, so the Saturn V still holds the title of "largest rocket ever successfully launched". --Carnildo (talk) 19:54, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very weak support: I'd like to see ITN include more things like this which are actually in the news around the world even if not earth-shatteringly significant, rather than the usual diet of death, destruction, and sports news. It needs more balance and more light, and this is something that has got people talking, made headlines around the world and seems as good a place as any to start improving ITN. 2A02:C7E:30F9:A600:45E2:C463:2CAC:15B0 (talk) 20:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not every single SpaceX rocket launch needs to be ITN. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 20:52, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Space X has made over 80 launches so far this year so we're nowhere near reporting every one of them. See List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches for details. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Another SpaceX launch and nothing really of significant significance. Centuries123 (talk) 01:48, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb it when it actually does something. JM (talk) 02:16, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above - simply not notable enough for ITN, maybe once it's actually successful? Iamstillqw3rty (talk) 04:28, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RD: Karl Tremblay[edit]

Article: Karl Tremblay (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Le Journal de Québec
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Roncanada (talk) 05:04, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Gohar Ayub Khan[edit]

Article: Gohar Ayub Khan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The News
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Fahads1982 (talk) 02:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) ChatGPT maker OpenAI ousted its own founder from the company[edit]

Consensus will still not develop. BangJan1999 20:56, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Proposed image
Article: Removal of Sam Altman (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Sam Altman, a founder of OpenAI which created ChatGPT, was ousted by the company as CEO. (Post)
News source(s): NYT, Washington Post, BBC, Reuters / Bloomberg
Credits:

Article updated
 HolyCrocsEmperor (talk) 03:07, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I'm reopening this discussion because details are now emerging and it seems not to be just a routine power-struggle or money-grab. For example, see this NYT report: "Ilya Sutskever, a respected A.I. researcher who co-founded OpenAI with Mr. Altman and nine other people, was increasingly worried that OpenAI’s technology could be dangerous and that Mr. Altman was not paying enough attention to that risk..." As AI is an existential risk for humanity, such governance issues are highly significant. Also, as OpenAI was founded as a non-profit and is still controlled by its board, its governance will be of special interest here, as Wikipedia has a similar structure and goal. For more details, see the most recent sources such as Details emerge... Andrew🐉(talk) 10:35, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; pushing a startup founder out because the board believed they were focused too much on growth and not enough on safety and ethics is a significant story, and warrants inclusion on the main page. BilledMammal (talk) 10:41, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose run of the mill story, only minor coverage in the articles linked. Polyamorph (talk) 11:49, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Pretty massive advent with AI, starting to look like a big deal. Lukt64 (talk) 18:46, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Corporate leadership changes aren’t ITNR-level, even if it’s a media-darling subject like AI. Discussion shouldn’t have been reopened, but it’s par the course for who did. The Kip 20:02, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose they just removed him from his position. That's basically it. There's nothing here that will change many people's lives. TomMasterRealTALK 20:45, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 17[edit]

November 17, 2023 (2023-11-17) (Friday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Politics and elections

Science and technology

Sports

(Closed) RD: Ana Clara Benevides[edit]

Not eligible. Schwede66 00:31, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: Death of Ana Clara Benevides (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [15], [16]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
 Happily888 (talk) 02:20, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural Oppose and close RD requies a biographical article per Cryptic. It has to be a blue link that dies, not a death that gets a blue link. This person is only notable for this one event, dying at a concert, which is why the article is about the event, the death. A death article could ONLY get posted as a blurb, but this is not even close to reaching even the most minimal standards of ITN for blurbing. JM (talk) 03:23, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Claude Kahn[edit]

Article: Claude Kahn (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Radio France
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: French pianist who founded a competition in his name in 1970, and a conservatory the following year. Plenty of obits in French, with similar content, little in English (so far). The article was mostly there but undersourced. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:31, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Everton F.C.[edit]

Consensus to post will not develop. Moazfargal (talk) 21:34, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Past Everton F.C. league positions
Article: Everton F.C. (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Everton F.C. receive a 10-point deduction from the Premier League, the biggest in the competition’s history. (Post)
News source(s): [17]
Credits:
Nominator's comments: This is the biggest point deduction in Premier League history. ITN obliviously needed. Equalwidth (C) 08:19, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The blurb doesn't explain this and neither does the article update. It seems that it has something to do with the club losing money but it's a curious sport that penalises you for that. Me, I'm more interested in the 10 grid penalty given to Carlos Sainz in the Las Vegas Grand Prix but so it goes... Andrew🐉(talk) 09:31, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose How is it "obviously" needed? It's one team losing points in a country-wide competition. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 10:44, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose no bolded article, no article about the topic, the only line about this in either article is one single line within a large unrelated section of the first article, a non-ITN/R sporting event... and isn't notable enough for ITN. JM (talk) 11:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) 2023 Liberian general election[edit]

Proposed image
Joseph Boakai
Article: 2023 Liberian general election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Joseph Boakai (pictured) is elected President of Liberia. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Joseph Boakai (pictured) is elected President of Liberia in the runoff, defeating incumbent president George Weah.
News source(s): Reuters
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Incumbent has conceded, remarkably well run for a run-off in Liberia as EU described it. BastianMAT (talk) 23:48, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support, especially alt blurb Hoping for a peaceful transfer of power! Article seems in pretty good shape, although I'm guessing it's time to add an Aftermath or Reactions section! (As right now it finishes with the table-heavy results, maybe a bit of prose or analysis by sources?) ChaotıċEnby(talk) 01:05, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support original blurb ITN/R, good enought article, original blurb is more concise JM (talk) 02:02, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb. Makes sense to point out that the incumbent was defeated here. estar8806 (talk) ★ 02:37, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 16[edit]

November 16, 2023 (2023-11-16) (Thursday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Closed) CRISPR gene editing[edit]

Has gone stale. Schwede66 16:16, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: CRISPR gene editing (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Casgevy, the first drug to make use of CRISPR gene editing, is approved in the United Kingdom. (Post)
News source(s): CNN
Credits:

Extremely important first in the world of medicine, being the first CRISPR-based gene therapy to be approved anywhere. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 23:33, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Pulled) RD: A. S. Byatt[edit]

Article: A. S. Byatt (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

English writer. Her article is lengthy and well referenced. Moscow Mule (talk) 16:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The quotes are quoted and referenced. Stephen 07:35, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But there's far too many of them. Per MOS:QUOTE. Too many quotes can be considered copyvio. Polyamorph (talk) 07:38, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
”May be considered” Stephen 09:10, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure what you mean by that. MOS:QUOTE is pretty clear: While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style and may be copyright infringement, and so most of the content should be in the editor's own words.. Please can you actually address my concerns, as you are coming across very dismissive. You removed the tag on the basis of it being "one quote". I've demonstrated that it is many more than one quotation, integrated throughout the article. As the one who holds the authority to post or pull, I expect an admin to take copyvio extremely seriously. Polyamorph (talk) 09:54, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pulled - yes, like Stephen I was a bit sceptical about this at first, but looking more deeply at the article, it does seem to be littered with quotations, some quotes by Byatt and others direct pulls from a source in lieu of paraphrasing and writing things in Wikipedia's own voice. That doesn't seem right, and I agree with Polyamorph that such should not be present on the main page. The article should be looked at urgently too, and if the issues can't be handled, then the material in question should be removed.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:41, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Thomas J. Bliley Jr.[edit]

Article: Thomas J. Bliley Jr. (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): WTVR
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Former congressman and mayor from Richmond, Virginia. Needs source work and prose expansion. Curbon7 (talk) 22:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Pedro Sánchez reelected as Spain's prime minister[edit]

Proposed image
Article: 2023 Spanish government formation (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Pedro Sánchez is re-elected as the prime minister of Spain following the 2023 Spanish general election in July. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Four months after the July 2023 general election, Pedro Sánchez is reelected as the prime minister of Spain.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Pedro Sánchez is re-elected as the prime minister of Spain, after making a deal that extended amnesty to members of the Catalan independence movement.
News source(s): [20][21][22][23]
Credits:

Normally I wouldn't nominate something like this as I would probably consider it to have been covered by the posting for the election. The election was posted in July [24], but it rolled off of ITN after a couple hours. Changes in head of government are also WP:ITN/R, though not as part of a general election, hence I didn't list this as ITN/R. Though, considering that it's been several months since the general election and the article for that rolled off relatively quickly, I figured this should have a chance. estar8806 (talk) ★ 23:00, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support, excellent article and we haven't had a blurb in over a week. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 23:41, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above Lukt64 (talk) 23:43, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Extremely Weak Support Taking note that Sanchez's BLP makes no reference to the scandalous circumstances under which he was able to secure the needed support to remain in power. That's a huge miss in an article about a head of government. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The govt formation article is good enough, and a clean-shaven gent in a nice shirt and tie could replace Mr. Nascar / Wabash / Ford Motor Co. Moscow Mule (talk) 00:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If image change is all that is wanted, the Myanmar article has some. And do not really a problem enough with Blaney to base of the notability of this on that alone. Gotitbro (talk) 04:17, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I wasn't supporting the Sánchez nom just to get rid of Blaney; the story of the four-month negotiations and the PSOE succeeding where the PP couldn't stands on its own merits. And there's an AltBlurb still to be written that succinctly captures that. Moscow Mule (talk) 13:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - we posted this as part of a general election, and the head of government did not, in fact, change, because he was reelected. --RockstoneSend me a message! 03:56, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Yes, Pedro Sánchez was and still is PM of Spain, but I think this story is more then just about Sánchez, it's about a multi-month government formation. I'd be fine redacting the mention of the election itself for this reason. And, as much as I hate to be the guy who pulls this card, but I think the slow news cycle does make this a little more reasonable to post. DarkSide830 (talk) 04:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt1 Support Alt2; just because it's ITN/R to post an election OR appointment of a PM doesn't mean we can't post the end of the months-long struggle for the reelection of a PM outside of ITN/R. JM (talk) 06:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt government formation months after election, will be of interest to readers. Polyamorph (talk) 06:58, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurbs The currently proposed blurbs give the impression that this is just business as usual. But when we ran this before, we posted the picture of a different party leader because their party got the most votes. And so the King gave them the first crack at forming a government but their vote of confidence failed to pass. Sanchez then got a chance and the real news is that he's got further by doing a controversial deal with Catalan separatists. So, any blurb for this needs to summarise why our previous selection didn't work out and how this one has. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:36, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This was pretty big news, but as the above comments mention, it's mostly notable because of the investiture coalition he formed. I'd propose ALT2 "Pedro Sánchez is reelected as the prime minister of Spain, after making a deal that extended amnesty to members of the Catalan independence movement". --Grnrchst (talk) 09:57, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Neither the blurb nor the article itself actually covers the controversial circumstances surrounding his re-election - and if you look at the news stories, that is ITN rather than the re-election itself. Black Kite (talk) 10:26, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated article is quite extensive and includes sections such as 2023 Spanish government formation#Reactions to amnesty and PSOE–Junts alliance. What more are you expecting? Andrew🐉(talk) 11:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Ken Squier[edit]

Article: Ken Squier (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [25], [26]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American motorsports announcer best known for his longstanding affiliation with NASCAR.

Needs expansion. thrashbandicoot01 (talk) 14:22, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Neville Garrick[edit]

Article: Neville Garrick (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [27]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Needs expansion. Polyamorph (talk) 06:19, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 15[edit]

November 15, 2023 (2023-11-15) (Wednesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and incidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Worta McCaskill-Stevens[edit]

Article: Worta McCaskill-Stevens (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [28]
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Physician-scientist and medical oncologist.

2023 Doda bus accident[edit]

Has gone stale. Schwede66 20:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: 2023 Doda bus accident (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A bus crash kills 39 and injures 19 in Jammu and Kashmir, India. (Post)
News source(s): The Times of India
Credits:

A bus crash with a rather high fatality rate; it got its own article, and ITN is very un-dynamic right now. JM (talk) 05:05, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rwanda asylum plan[edit]

Has gone stale. Schwede66 20:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Proposed image
Article: Rwanda asylum plan (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Supreme Court of the United Kingdom rules the government's Rwanda asylum plan to be unlawful. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated

Country-level politics, but with far reaching implications. Plus, we haven't had a new blurb in more than a week. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 00:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: its the cancellation of an international cross-continental exchange program established by two national governments. And we need dynamism in ITN, not the same four blurbs for over a week straight. JM (talk) 04:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    We cannot force the creation of news so this dynamism argument is invalid. Masem (t) 05:18, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    We cannot force the creation of news, but I think we can lower the high high standards of newsworthiness at ITN just a little bit in order to have a corresponding raise in dynamism. This is the latter, not the former. JM (talk) 05:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    How are we forcing the creation of news? Is this not already on the front page of many significant news outlets? PrecariousWorlds (talk) 05:22, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I am simply saying say that "ITN has been stale" is not a valid reason to promote blurbs. Nothing about this specific blurb, just the argument in general. Masem (t) 12:15, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed, but I do think there's a case to be made. The purpose of ITN is to direct viewers to relevant articles to current news items. Even if there's a slow news week, we should seek to keep up with current stories as much as possible, which could potentially mean lowering our (rather arbitrary I'd argue) standards of notability in order to best serve readers. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I mean, news is happening in the world. It's not like the BBC's world news page hasn't posted anything this week. It just doesn't always measure up to what a few people here think "real news" is. WP:ITNSIGNIF says as much: "The consensus among those discussing the event is all that is necessary to decide if an event is significant enough for posting." So yeah, I'd say an assertion of enough importance + "ITN is stale" is an acceptable argument that's grounded right in WP:ITNPURPOSE. Ed [talk] [OMT] 20:53, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - In The News, major international agreement. I do think that there is a good case @JM2023 is making here, while we shouldn't post this solely because the current blurbs are stale, it is a factor. We should keep up with what is in the news, even if its a slow news week (which is becoming an increasingly rare occurance these days lol). PrecariousWorlds (talk) 05:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Migrant and refugee issues are ongoing everywhere. For example, Finland is closing its border with Russia for this reason. So, if we cover this, it should be done in a more general encyclopedic way, rather than cherry-picking one incident. And the UK ruling is not the last word as the government is now planning to pass emergency legislation and this will likely be tested by further legal action. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Good point. Perhaps there's some way we can combine all of these migration issues into a blurb? PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:05, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Wouldn't that be WP:SYNTH? Just propose the Finland border closure as another blurb. JM (talk) 19:13, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    At this point I might just want to propose it, although I'm not sure it would fare too well. Something like the Rwanda asylum plan is on a much higher notability level than a "simple" border closing. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 01:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I proposed the Indian bus crash knowing it would probably not get consensus to post just to give an oppurtunity for a new blurb, but it's up to you. I have no plans to propose it. JM (talk) 02:01, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, I've looked at the article, it's not even a full border closing, only some checkpoints. That definitely can't be put on the same level, you can't use routine stuff to argue that a much more notable event is "cherry-picked". ChaotıċEnby(talk) 01:14, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Finland was given as an example because it had just been reported in the news. But it is not isolated and the point of the other source is that such events are widespread and common. For more examples, I just search the news to turn up the following reports from within the last 24 hours:
Rohingya refugees reach western Indonesia on decrepit boat
Inside a Lebanese refugee camp...
Hundreds of Afghans evacuated from Pakistan ‘dumped’ in military bases...
Refugees in PNG told they will be evicted next week ...
Andrew🐉(talk) 09:46, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that it was an example, no need to be condescending about it. My point was that it's a bad example, and that you can't just put anything related to refugees on the same level. What's newsworthy was the plan itself, not "something related to refugees happened", which is why you can't really compare it to random other examples.
Two events aren't close to being of the same importance just because they both have "refugee" in the title. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 10:42, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated issue is quite minor as these things go. It concerned a flight of just seven people and the ruling was just an administrative issue: "there had not been a proper assessment of whether Rwanda was safe". So, the government will just make that assessment and back it up with further agreements and legislation as necessary. The operation will continue and the lawyers will continue to bicker about it but it's quite a small impact when you consider that about 1% of the world's population is displaced -- over 80 million people. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:34, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is a significant change in cross-continental policy. If this is not noteworthy enough for ITN, especially on a slow news week, I don't know what is. --MtPenguinMonster (talk) 21:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RD: N. Sankaraiah[edit]

Article: N. Sankaraiah (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Wire
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Indian Politican Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 04:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please a take look now.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 03:32, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Insufficient depth of coverage. More depth needed about political career, such as what he accomplished in the Tamil Nadu legislative assembly or with the Communist Party after 1964. SpencerT•C 05:53, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 14[edit]

November 14, 2023 (2023-11-14) (Tuesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

RD: Arthur Simon[edit]

Article: Arthur Simon (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [29]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Christian Pastor who founded Bread for the World. Article is a stub and needs expanding; I will attempt to help. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 02:47, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Peter Seidler[edit]

Article: Peter Seidler (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [30]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Muboshgu (talk • contribs) 19:43, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Subrata Roy[edit]

Article: Subrata Roy (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): IE
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Indian businessman who founded Sahara India Pariwar.The Herald (Benison) (talk) 19:01, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Ociel Baena[edit]

Article: Ociel Baena (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): (The Guardian) (NBC News) (BBC News) )(El País)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Tragic death of an important figure at the local level. Ornithoptera (talk) 08:24, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

wait article was created after this person died. brings the subjects notability for having an article into question. could be nominated for deletion soon. JM (talk) 13:00, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
​Per WP:JUDGE, they're likely notable. Sincerely, Novo Tape (She/Her)My Talk Page 15:43, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
and perhaps tangential, but the article says they dont know if it was homicide or accident and theres no evidence of third-party entry so "tragic killing" is speculative JM (talk) 15:53, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Same deal with Vivian Silver, which is marked "Ready" below. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:35, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article in a very good shape and well-sourced. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 09:05, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Title of the submission has been changed to their full name, why? Shouldn't it be their preferred name (which matches with the article title) instead? ChaotıċEnby(talk) 17:51, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reply. Not true. I changed the target article following a page move (discussed on its talk page) in this edit, but the original nomination used the full legal name from the outset, and that I didn't touch. Maybe it was a breach of protocol to change the target article; apols if that's the case, I just wanted to skip a redirect. Moscow Mule (talk) 21:24, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Thank you for the heads up @Chaotic Enby:, at the time I had nominated the article, a variety of news sources that I had seen their name referred with using their deadname. For example, The Guardian's "Jesús Ociel Baena, who used they/them pronouns, was celebrated across Latin America for their work to advance the rights of the LGBTQ+ community" and I had thus presumed that was their preferred name. Since that information is now outdated I will update the RD nomination to reflect their preferred name. Ornithoptera (talk) 21:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Don Walsh[edit]

WP:SNOW
Opposed by nominator after discovery of copyvio. WP:NAC Polyamorph (talk) 22:25, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Don Walsh (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://news.usni.org/2023/11/13/retired-navy-capt-don-walsh-deep-sea-submariner-and-ocean-explorer-dies-at-92
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
 Yeti-Hunter (talk) 05:32, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Snowclose due to what Yeti-Hunter has just said JM (talk) 05:47, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 13[edit]

November 13, 2023 (2023-11-13) (Monday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

Sports

(Posted) RD: Tengiz Kitovani[edit]

Article: Tengiz Kitovani (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: One of the leaders of the 1991–1992 Georgian coup d'état. I see that the article is in good condition. _-_Alsor (talk) 15:10, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Vivian Silver[edit]

Article: Vivian Silver (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/israel-gaza-vivian-silver-1.7027333 , https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/missing-peace-activist-confirmed-to-have-been-killed-in-oct-7-hamas-onslaught/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Israeli peace activist, died on October 7 but not identified until recently ForsythiaJo (talk) 00:20, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Will be posted) Ongoing: Myanmar civil war[edit]

Consensus to post to ongoing when blurb rolls off. Stephen 22:41, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Myanmar civil war (2021–present) (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Irrawady
Credits:
Nominator's comments: On top of the currently blurbed Operation 1027, there is also the simultaneous Operation 1107, and the rapid changes and announcements of new operations are a better fit for an Ongoing nomination. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 22:25, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support after blurb rolls off - Per Kip, unless any significant major events happen before then PrecariousWorlds (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 13:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support at rolloff per above Lukt64 (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: M. Russell Ballard[edit]

Article: M. Russell Ballard (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): KSL, Fox 13 Utah
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: President of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints TheTubaTitan (talk) 17:53, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Sufficiently news worthy passing 2601:681:0:470:DDB2:C459:6FEA:D73B (talk) 22:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Newsworthiness is irrelevant to RDs. Newsworthiness is only relevant to blurbs. Yet another reason why they should be split apart. JM (talk) 23:12, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Maryanne Trump Barry[edit]

Article: Maryanne Trump Barry (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former U.S. federal judge (1983–1999, 1999–2011), and sister of Donald Trump. Davey2116 (talk) 15:55, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support I did a quick scan and the article seems fine. Unlike most RD articles this one seems to be OK (because the proximity of the subject to a very controversial and divisive political figure makes it interesting to various editors probably) JM (talk) 16:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Adequate for RD. Moscow Mule (talk) 17:41, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) UK cabinet reshuffle[edit]

WP:SNOW
Consensus to post will not develop. WP:NAC BangJan1999 19:17, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Proposed image
Articles: Sunak ministry (talk · history · tag) and November 2023 British cabinet reshuffle (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Former UK PM David Cameron (pictured) returns as Foreign Secretary as Rishi Sunak reshuffles his cabinet. (Post)
News source(s): BBC, CNBC, DW, France24, NYT, Washington Post
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Big news as Sunak re-aligns and reshuffles his cabinet. The return of Cameron seems quite a surprising and significant development. As mentioned below, "a week is a long time in politics". Andrew🐉(talk) 13:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Cabinet reshuffles are not ITN-worthy. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 16:24, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose although interesting to see British politicians continue to act like they're all in The Thick of It, a cabinet reshuffle is not significant, and a former head of government who quit way back in 2016 taking a new, different, lesser job in 2023 is not significant. JM (talk) 16:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - don't understand some of the opposes here. Unlike most of the rubbish that gets featured on ITN, this is historic, and most importanly, encyclopaedic - Cameron coming back, Braverman being sacked again and Sunak gearing up for an election will shape the next decade of British politics if this delivers a Labour win. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 17:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Isn't the Labour win a foregone conclusion? ITN isn't a UK news ticker and shouldn't become one just because the Tories keep finding dumber ways to create news. AryKun (talk) 17:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    will shape the next decade of British politics if this delivers a Labour win.
    WP:CRYSTAL. If we’re posting this because of what it might do, now that’s rubbish. The Kip 18:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Major changes at two of the Great Offices of State. And because blue man drives car faster than anyone else has been up there getting free advertising for five days. Moscow Mule (talk) 17:18, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Just because Brits call them the Great Offices doesn't make them great. Every country has the exact same offices and replaces the people occupying them frequently; what makes the UK doing this in any way notable and not just DYK trivia? AryKun (talk) 17:40, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Most people in the UK could not give a flying fig about this "news". Let alone the rest of the world. Polyamorph (talk) 18:06, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Domestic level politics and not a significant enough event to merit ITN blurbing - cabinet shuffles are not an unusual event. I often feel that accusations of “pro-American/British bias” on ITN are badly exaggerated, but posting this would indeed be a prime example of said bias - we would almost certainly never consider posting the same for any other country. The Kip 17:58, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This is the seventh new foreign secretary and seventh new home secretary since Brexit, and the second time in just over a year that the same woman has left in controversy. Yes Cameron is recognisable, but were John Kerry and Hillary Clinton posted as recognisable new secretaries? This would not be even suggested for posting if it was in a non-Anglophone country of similar population and influence such as France or Germany, or probably even if it were in India or China Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:07, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The only interesting thing about this is the Government being so devoid of actual talent that it needed to bring back Cameron over 349 other MPs, I bet they are really happy. Oh, and a minister for anti-wokeness. You couldn't make it up. Actually, I'm making it sound newsworthy. It isn't. Black Kite (talk) 18:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Post-Closing Support - It seems strange that for a section literally called 'In The News' we don't seem to cover what is actually in the news often. We're not a UK Politics ticker, instead we have become a 'Tragic Disasters and Sports' ticker. Can anyone please tell me with a straight face that the Japan Baseball Series is more notable and generated more coverage than this? See you next week for the Uzbekistan Darts Championship or whatever we post next instead of something actually useful to the general reader PrecariousWorlds (talk) 22:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 12[edit]

November 12, 2023 (2023-11-12) (Sunday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and incidents

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

India tunnel collapse[edit]

Article: 2023 Uttarakhand tunnel collapse (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ An underground tunnel in Uttarakhand, India collapses, trapping 40 workers. (Post)
News source(s): [31][32]
Credits:

Yes, the original incident happened several days ago, but it was not nominated/posted. Seems to be garnering a lot of worldwide coverage, especially around the ongoing rescue efforts. Natg 19 (talk) 21:53, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) First successful eye transplantation[edit]

Consensus not to post. A good improvement in the field of surgery but not the eye transplant one thinks of when one sees the title. --Tone 20:44, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Eye transplantation (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the United States, surgeons at the NYU Langone Health have announced the first successful eye transplantation. (Post)
News source(s): WaPo - BBC - Smithsonian - France24 - The Guardian
Credits:
Nominator's comments: NYU surgeons have just completed the first eye transplant in a watershed moment for the sciences. The article is in an infantile state, however, it definitely meets the last two points of WP:ITNPURPOSE and needs to be highlighted. — Knightoftheswords 19:48, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on the basis that this was initially misleading. It isn't as notable if it is only cosmetic and the eye itself doesn't function. Centuries123 (talk) 18:34, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality, support on notability per above. Genuinely significant medical breakthrough. The Kip 21:55, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • The more I read about it, the more it seems this is a misleading story; it's uncertain whether the patient will actually regain sight in the eye, making this effectively an advancement in cosmetic surgery rather than the breakthrough I initially believed it was. As such, switching vote to oppose. The Kip 05:33, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose if nothing else but on quality. Lot of work still needed with the article. But I will say, if this is indeed a "watershed" moment in medicine, the article should make this clear. But from a surface-level perspective, the patient in question can't see with the new eye. I think this story becomes more more notable if that happens. DarkSide830 (talk) 21:59, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, cosmetic surgery, being blown out of proportion by the media, the eye cannot see. Stephen 22:35, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Needs work It seems that that it was more of a face transplant. The eye seems mainly cosmetic and the chances of vision in it seem uncertain and small. And it can't said to be successful until some time has passed to check for rejection and/or recovery. Also note that eye transplants have been done in other creatures before and so we'd need to make it clear that this is for humans, if claiming a first. See here for some history. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC) (edit conflict)[reply]
  • Oppose misleading; the transplanted eye is not a functional organ; it's an advancement in face transplantion rather than a revolution in opthalmology. JM (talk) 05:30, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I agree with JM2023, very misleading. According to the article linked, the recipient Aaron James hadn't even regained sight in that eye and the optic nerve isn't even communicating with his brain. Sure, it's an advancement in face transplantation just like JM2023 pointed out, but in no way is this really revolutionary. TwistedAxe [contact] 12:26, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 11[edit]

November 11, 2023 (2023-11-11) (Saturday)

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RD: Roman Čechmánek[edit]

Article: Roman Čechmánek (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NHL, IIHF
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Czech former NHL goaltender. Gone way too young. Article needs a lot of work. The Kip 17:01, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose for now Work is needed in citations, merging the bulleted lists into prose, and proofreading the prose (I noticed "an embarrassing 8–0 loss" as one phrase to fix) – Muboshgu (talk) 00:06, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: He was already an established goalie in the Czech Republic when he joined the NHL at the age of 29 in 2000. With so many lines of pre-2000 stats in the stats table on this wikipage, having just a single sentence in the prose to summarize his pre-NHL career does not seem to be adequate coverage. The medal table also indicated that he won two medals representing his country as a junior, but his junior career was not in the prose either. --PFHLai (talk) 06:37, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Raphael Dwamena[edit]

Article: Raphael Dwamena (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.dw.com/en/ghana-footballer-raphael-dwamena-dies-after-on-field-collapse/a-67376776
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Ghanaian professional footballer. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 12:27, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Muhammad Azam Khan (civil servant)[edit]

Article: Muhammad Azam Khan (civil servant) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Dawn, Tribune
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Ainty Painty (talk) 07:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Two entire paragraphs including a section are unsourced 67.80.40.19 (talk) 22:45, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Iceland earthquakes[edit]

WP:SNOW. 🔥Jalapeño🔥 Stupid stuff I did 18:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2023 Iceland earthquakes (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: No blurb specified (Post)
News source(s): Iceland Meteorological Office The Guardian
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Article needs substantial further work before ready so I recommend waiting, however the IMO has reported thata volcanic eruption is likely in next few days. [osunpokeh/talk/contributions] 06:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) Ongoing: War in Sudan[edit]

Article: War in Sudan (2023) (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/09/sudan-civil-war-humanitarian-crisis/
Credits:

Nominator's comments: The war seems to be massively escalating again, with the RSF on the verge of capturing Darfur and an ongoing genocide in the same region, I believe this needs to be added back. Lukt64 (talk) 01:43, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since the 2023 Israel–Hamas war began, the media & public have become much less interested in all the other current wars, so none of them are likely to receive major coverage daily for weeks. Does the current increase in violence mean that there's a Second Battle of Geneina this month? Jim 2 Michael (talk) 20:19, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The new escalation in Geneina is the 2023 Darfur genocide. Also, just because theres no major media coverage doesnt mean its not a big deal. Thats like saying that the Myanmar War isnt a big deal. It is. Lukt64 (talk) 20:28, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's mostly about the war in Gaza, but more because the other wars (in Sudan, Myanmar, Ukraine and Ethiopia) had mostly stalled at that moment, and recent developments in Sudan and Myanmar will likely impact their respective media coverage. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 02:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the wars in Myanmar & Sudan are major, but they have never received anything like the level of international media coverage or public interest that Israel-Hamas does. The first two receive no demonstrations, whereas the latter receives hundreds. Ardamata massacre & 2023 Darfur genocide are far too short to post. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 23:07, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but I would put the link to the Battle of Geneina article instead. Subaru2000 (talk) 14:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In ongoing, a battle by itself is unimportant. Lukt64 (talk) 16:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok! But just saying that we should atleast list it somewhere on the box, such as on the blurb. Because the Masalit genocide in Darfur in centered around the whole battle. Subaru2000 (talk) 17:04, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment : surprised that there isnt any opposes Lukt64 (talk) 19:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Just because a new theatre of a war opens doesn't automatically mean notability. If this makes headlines, then we should post a blurb. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 20:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 10[edit]

November 10, 2023 (2023-11-10) (Friday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

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(Posted) RD: Hiroyuki Hosoda[edit]

Article: Hiroyuki Hosoda (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/11/10/japan/politics/lower-house-speaker-hosoda-dies/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Secretary-General of Japan's Liberal Democratic Party, 2008-2009. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 14:35, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Johnny Ruffo[edit]

Article: Johnny Ruffo (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): news.com.au
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Australian singer Stephen 01:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 9[edit]

November 9, 2023 (2023-11-09) (Thursday)

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Health and environment

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Politics and elections

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Sports

(Posted) RD: John Nuttall[edit]

Article: John Nuttall (athlete) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67378980
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: British long-distance runner. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 12:29, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Linda Hirshman[edit]

Article: Linda Hirshman (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): = NYT
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: US writer and professor. Death in October announced Nov 9. Innisfree987 (talk) 00:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted RD): Frank Borman[edit]

Consensus to post has still not developed. Stephen 22:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Frank Borman (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  American astronaut Frank Borman (pictured), one of the first to fly around the Moon, dies at the age of 95. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ American astronaut Frank Borman (pictured), a member of the first crewed mission to fly around the Moon, dies at the age of 95.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Astronaut Frank Borman (pictured), commander of the first crewed mission to reach the Moon, dies at the age of 95.
News source(s): The Wall Street Journal
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Article a FA and updated. Death announced on this day. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:24, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The subject is vital
  2. The Apollo 8 mission was historic "...because it was the first time humans left the Earth's orbit, losing sight of their home planet" and he led it
  3. The article is FA quality
  4. The current top blurb and picture have been up for over two days for a routine sports event which took place six days ago and so it's time for a change
Andrew🐉(talk) 08:39, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree completely. The closure was premature, in my view. Jusdafax (talk) 08:46, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's no particular reason to close the discussion at all. If editors have something to say then we should not obstruct them. And if no-one has anything more to say we can just let it ride and scroll off, as happens to most nominations. I'm now going to add an update to the older Portuguese PM nomination as some time has passed and so we have more news reports with updates on the event. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Simply being the commander of single moon mission doesn't really meet the type of significance we expect for RD blurbs. Masem (t) 22:39, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See Neil Armstrong who commanded a single moon mission. Andrew🐉(talk) 23:32, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Armstrong did a whole lot more than his time at NASA and has a very respectable legacy section to state that he was more important than simply being a moon mission commander or the first to step on the moon. Masem (t) 23:39, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Armstrong wasn't blurbed because he commanded Apollo 11, he was blurbed because he was the first human to set foot on the Moon. Besides, we didn't have RD then, though I'm pretty sure we'd blurb him anyway. We'll likely blurb Aldrin as well; and I'd support blurbing both the last man from the Apollo era to walk on the Moon to die and, if different, the last one to reach lunar orbit or further to die, especially if those happen before Artemis 3 and Artemis 2 respectively. But, like it or not, Borman doesn't have the enduring fame of any of those, even if you accept mere fame as a reason for a death blurb. —Cryptic 23:39, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Armstrong did little of significance after Apollo 11. When he was blurbed, the discussion said nothing of a legacy; instead the comment was "he has not done anything notable since". So, he was blurbed for leading that mission, just as Borman led Apollo 8. Borman then became president of a major airline after his astronaut career but that's not really his main claim to fame either. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At that time (2012), we didn't have the wholesale problems of RB blurbs, at that point we only posted significant RDs as blurbs (the current "post all RDs" only started in 2016). So really, trying to compare the Armstrong posting to this one is non-sensical. Masem (t) 21:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb old man dies. JM (talk) 10:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Notable life, non-notable death. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 16:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 8[edit]

November 8, 2023 (2023-11-08) (Wednesday)

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Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Bob White (cricketer)[edit]

Article: Bob White (cricketer) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.middlesexccc.com/news/2023/11/former-middlesex-cricketer-bob-white-passes-away
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: English first-class cricketer and umpire. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 14:32, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Valentina Ponomaryova[edit]

Article: Valentina Ponomaryova (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://tass.ru/kosmos/19253359 https://www.interfax-russia.ru/moscow/news/roskosmos-ushla-iz-zhizni-dubler-tereshkovoy-valentina-ponomareva
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Soviet cosmonaut, pilot and scientist. 65.94.213.53 (talk) 14:32, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Louis Oster[edit]

Article: Louis Oster (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.lalsace.fr/culture-loisirs/2023/11/10/louis-oster-avocat-melomane
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: French lawyer, president of the Strasbourg Bar Association 65.94.213.53 (talk) 14:32, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Marcus Besen[edit]

Article: Marcus Besen (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): [33]
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Romanian-born Australian businessman, philanthropist, and Holocaust survivor. Happily888 (talk) 02:31, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose I spot checked the sources and the sources in early life and education don't confirm all the info there. Also I can't locate the source 5, 7, 8 or 9 online. Even if we AGF that those exist, I still don't think it's ready as there's still 2 cn tags and the failed verification from the early life section which I just added. Scientia potentia est, MonarchOfTerror 18:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Myanmar Civil War - Operation 1027[edit]

Article: Operation 1027 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Myanmar, opposition forces launch a major offensive against the ruling military junta, during the country's ongoing civil war. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In Myanmar, opposition forces capture multiple towns and cities in a major offensive against the ruling military junta, during the country's ongoing civil war.
News source(s): The Irrawaddy - 1 and 2
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Offensive started just under two weeks ago, so perhaps stale, but seems to have kicked into high gear in the last few days as multiple larger towns have come under opposition control. Not gung-ho on posting or on the blurb above, but figured it was worth the nom - the article's seemingly well-maintained. The Kip 06:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ongoing This has been classified as a major war in the List of ongoing armed conflicts for years. The fatalities so far this year are shown there as about 12,000 – comparable with the Gaza and Sudan conflicts. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:16, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The Hamas-Israel War has only been going on for less than a month not counting the initiating genocide of Israelis -- hardly comparable to casualties spread over more than ten months in Myanmar, even if those numbers are right. And Sudan is not even in the ongoing section. JM (talk) 05:44, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The Sudan war has been in Ongoing and is nominated again due to events like the Ardamata massacre. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:47, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I know it was there a month or more ago, and I know it's nominated again, but the point is that it's not there right now, it hasn't reached consensus and been closed yet, so I don't think it's logical to cite it as a reason to put something else in ongoing. JM (talk) 10:52, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    No, the point was that these conflicts all have a similar scale and, as major wars with much mayhem, should be expected to appear in Ongoing. And so the Sudan conflict is now back there too. Q.E.D. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:49, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    When I say "the point" I am referring to my point, which, again, was that using the Sudan war as justification for putting Myanmar's war in ongoing is illogial because Sudan isn't in ongoing (and there's nowhere in your original !vote telling me that you saying with the Gaza and Sudan conflicts indicates you wanted Sudan to be there too, but anyway...). It doesn't matter now, Sudan is up there again as I expected so it's a moot point. (and also, as I pointed out, wars are not of similar scale if they have similar amounts of casualties despite lasting vastly different periods.) JM (talk) 16:23, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    With all due respect, as an ITNC vet Andrew is not worth engaging with. The Kip 20:19, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ongoing Something should be in the box, it's just not a blurb because as mentioned it's stale. Banedon (talk) 10:01, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ongoing – I am pleased with the ongoing expansions on Myanmar civil war (2021–present) in the past month, and I would've loved to blurb Operation 1027, but alas... I'm not sure which one is the better Ongoing target, though the latter is seeing more intensive updates. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 10:16, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    There's definitely more scope to add for the war overall than just 1027-relted events. However, I personally feel the civil war article is a bit long and hard to follow as it is right now (and partly due to lack of overall war analysis RS that we can structure based on). EmeraldRange (talk/contribs) 12:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Long running conflict, yes, but we do blurb events that are out of the norm for a particular conflict (e.g. Israel/Palestine incidents). This appears to be a major flare up with large cities such as Sagaing going outside of the military government's control. Gotitbro (talk) 12:15, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is a pretty big deal, and might actually result in a new government. Lukt64 (talk) 13:37, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb, oppose ongoing - Ongoing is for items that are consistently making blurb-worthy news. This is the first time an event in the Myanmar War has been nominated. We shouldn't immediately put blurbs in ongoing, wait for it to roll off and if it still has significant coverage, then put it up. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ongoing is for items that are seeing a significant amount of editing over a long period of time. ~Maplestrip/Mable (chat) 15:04, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, more specifically, that the topic is in the news on a near-daily basis. There may be daily edits but those could be equal to small updates from local news outlets. In contrast, despite it not being the center of worldwide attention, there is near daily news coverage of the Ukraine-Russia war, which is why that's still in ongoing, as well as the current mess in Gaza.
    This specific news event feels ripe for a blurb, but not ongoing because the civil war rarely gets significant news coverage on a daily basis. Masem (t) 00:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Australian Optus outage[edit]

Consensus will not develop to post. Stephen 01:03, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template:ITN candidate

Template:Abot

November 7[edit]

Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2023 November 7 Template:Cob

(Posted) RD: Igor Judge, Baron Judge[edit]

Template:ITN candidate

Resignation of Portuguese Prime Minister[edit]

Template:ITN candidate

Wait until the new prime minister is offiically announced and post it then. BlakeIsHereStudios (talk) 06:05, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait per above, then post as combined blurb. The Kip 06:53, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clarifications A) As Portugal doesn't have a Westminster system (as some of the comments imply), what's happening next is that the President of Portugal is doing consultations today and tomorrow, and will decide tomorrow what will happen next. He can either appoint a new PM, or (more likely) dissolve parliament and call for new elections. In the latter case, it could be that Costa stays on as caretaker PM for some time. B) For me, the circumstances of this resignation make it ITN-worthy: the PM didn't resign because of a political coup within his party, but because close associates and members of his gov are the target of a corruption investigation, and he himself may be questioned. Happy to also consider making the corruption investigation article itself the main one for this nomination, if that makes more sense. Khuft (talk) 07:41, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The resignation is historic and noteworthy. It has been presented already, so there's nothing to wait about it. When a head of state changes, it gets posted, but this is not a change in the head of state and considering it as such is thus undue. What this is and what this nomination is about is the resignation of a Prime-Minister due to a corruption scandal. That resignation, not the appointment of a new head of state, is what's to be debated here. 85.240.222.144 (talk) 09:54, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Retarget The corruption investigation should be the primary topic as it appears that the PM is not the main target of this. As he has not been found guilty or convicted of anything specific, we should avoid giving the impression that he has. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:58, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Should not have posted the resignations of the UK PMs and the US house speaker, should not post this now. ITNR exists and we should make use of it i.e. wait for a new head. About the corruption, I would be very vary of BLP issues in highlighting mere investigations on the front page. Gotitbro (talk) 12:29, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The House Speaker didn't resign, he was kicked out of his position, and that was the first time in 236 years (since the the US Constitution went into force in 1787) that it had happened --RockstoneSend me a message! 23:26, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And a prime minister is thirty thousand times more powerful than the HoR Speaker. For the record. _-_Alsor (talk) 23:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We've already had this discussion once, but I guess we'll have it again. That's simply not true in the Presidential System that the US uses. The Speaker of the House is the head of the legislative branch, it is the closest position to a Prime Minister that exists in the US. --RockstoneSend me a message! 00:25, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this is true (and note that I didn't mind the publication of McCarthy's ousting). The various parliamentary systems we have in Europe don't work like you seem to imagine they work, and they're different amongst themselves as well. Portugal doesn't have a Westminster-style system like the UK, and France (for instance) has a semi-presidential system that's different again. In this particular case, the US equivalent to the Portuguese Prime Minister is the US president. Both are the heads of the Executive. The head of the Legislative in Portugal is the President of the Assembly of the Republic (currently Augusto Santos Silva, in case you're interested) - he sets the agenda for parliament and decides what gets put forward to vote - ie. similar to what the Speaker of the House does in the US. Typically he'll be of the same party (or coalition) as the Prime Minister because the basic tenet of parliamentary systems is that the head of the executive enjoys the confidence of the legislative branch. There are more intricacies to the whole Portuguese set-up (e.g. the role of the mostly ceremonial President of the Republic, who has some reserve powers such as dissolving parliament; the interaction between executive and legislative branches; etc.) but I'm sure you can learn about those here on Wikipedia, should you be interested. Long story short: saying that the US Speaker of the House is equivalent to a Prime Minister in a European parliamentary set-up is simply not correct. Khuft (talk) 10:17, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
just because it is "close" does not mean "it is". _-_Alsor (talk) 10:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The closest position to a Prime Minister in the US is the President, who combines powers usually shared by both the President and the Prime Minister in countries having both. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 21:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I know I'm repeating what others have said, but a prime minister in a parliamentary system is head of government, like in Portugal, so is equivalent to a president in a presidential system where a president is head of government, like in the United States. There is no equivalent of the presidential Speaker of the House in parliamentary systems because the presidential Speaker's power is a product of the separation of powers, which does not exist in a parliamentary system. The presidential system's Speaker operates at a power level between a parliamentary Speaker and a Prime Minister -- he is merely the leader of a legislative assembly which can be overruled by both the Senate and the President. JM (talk) 05:53, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update Checking back on this, the FT reports that there will be a "snap election" in March of next year and, in the meantime, "Rebelo de Sousa said he would delay the dissolution of parliament and Costa’s formal conversion into a caretaker leader to allow the passage of a budget package on November 29." So, the can is being kicked down the road some way per "mañana". Like the speaker situation, this is going to be ongoing for months. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:13, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm sure you wanted to add some ironic twist with your slightly condescending "mañana" remark, in particular given it's in Spanish instead of Portuguese, but the President's decision is not wholly unexpected. Getting a budget approved in time has become a talismanic event in the annual Portuguese political calendar, since the Financial Crisis. Also, the Socialist Party will need to elect a new leader after Costa's resignation, which take a few months in accordance with party statutes, and had asked for a later rather than earlier election date. Khuft (talk) 08:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The point is that Costa remains in power until this budget is done and that's weeks away. And he will continue to be PM until next March. As "a week is a long time in politics" we should not announce Costa's resignation until it seems more certain. Andrew🐉(talk) 00:13, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. We should post it like we posted US speaker McCarthy and UK prime ministers resignations. Kirill C1 (talk) 21:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2023 Melbourne Cup[edit]

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Oppose - The page is basically a stub at the moment. BlakeIsHereStudios (talk) 06:05, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose stub JM (talk) 05:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as we don't post stubs. Schwede66 23:50, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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November 6[edit]

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(Posted) RD: Mike Shuster[edit]

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(Posted) RD: Antoni Martí[edit]

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I'm working on his article. I will try to expand the content and add the missing sources. _-_Alsor (talk) 21:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 5[edit]

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(Posted) RD: Harald Heckmann[edit]

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(Posted) RD: Ryland Davies[edit]

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(Posted) 2023 NASCAR Cup Series[edit]

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Support, notable as the WRC championship posted below. Article just needs the final round summary. Tableguy28 (talk) 23:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC)s[reply]
  • Comment - I have addressed WP:PROSELINE concerns by splitting a vast majority of the material written in bullets. I strongly disagree with the assertion that the article is mostly written that way; only the sections concerning Team, driver, and rule changes. Concerns about notability/"it's sports" can be raised at appropriate venues. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  06:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    And every cup series article is written this way. Hardly a problem, IMO, because that section probably reads poorly in paragraph format. DarkSide830 (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I thought about raising a point like this, but figured It'd be easier to just split (something which I've advocated for in the past for that section in past years' articles) than come up with the right words to express it. Thank you. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  16:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Having read over PROSELINE again, I'm not sure that it even applies to this article, given the examples used in that essay, and that this is not something easily converted into WP:WEIGHTed paragraphs without removing information vital for WP:V. Regardless, my personal longstanding opinion still favours splitting this section. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  17:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2023 Japan Series[edit]

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(Closed) Gaza School Airstrike[edit]

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November 4[edit]

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RD: Bill Milbank[edit]

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2023 Copa Libertadores final[edit]

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Oppose stub JM (talk) 05:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Salman Habaka[edit]

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Oppose page is simply too short. Will reconsider if there is significant expansion. Bremps... 22:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Article isn't THAT bad, I think it could go up PrecariousWorlds (talk) 13:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:ITNQUALITY: Template:Tq I also oppose. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:54, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Oussama Falouh[edit]

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  • Only 224 words of prose? That's too stubby. Need more about his career. Please expand this wikibio. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 14:46, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Sorry, but the article is way too short for ITN posting at the moment. Needs expansion and the orphan tag needs to be sorted out. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁＝☁＝✈) 23:32, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment There's not a WP:SNOWball's chance of it being successful if I did nominate it for deletion due to the emotion involved, but I struggle to see the notability of this player and there's very little information pre-dating his death. There are transfer reports yes, but I had to use a primary source for his second loan to Avranches and a passing mention for his transfer to Wydad just this year. Was anybody writing about how and when he was playing? The player made 22 appearances in the Championnat National (third division, amateur) which was his highest achievement in France, and unless the data is just lacking on every database, he didn't even play a game in Morocco's league. Unknown Temptation (talk) 18:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 3[edit]

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RD: Patrick Brownsey[edit]

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RD: Bubba Copeland[edit]

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(Posted) 2023 Nepal earthquake[edit]

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Deportation of undocumented Afghans from Pakistan[edit]

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  • Wait As I understand it, these Afghans were already subject to arrest and deportation from Pakistan and so this issue is not new. The intention and plan here is to make it happen in a bigger way. But lots of countries have problems with migrants and refugees and then announce get-tough policies to address them. But the trouble seems to be that it's not so easy to actually implement such policies and so the problems drag on or become a revolving door. As this is a contentious topic, I reckon we need something more than a policy announcement. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:14, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. That is a LOT of people being FORCED to leave, pretty rare. This could have pretty big consequences for both Afghanistan and Pakistan. Lukt64 (talk) 13:55, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, definitely a massively important story. We can't just ignore ethnic cleansing. We're talking about several millions of people, that's not a "frequent issue". ChaotıċEnby(talk) 19:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 2[edit]

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RD: Fung Ying Ki[edit]

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RD: Henri Lopes[edit]

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(Posted) RD: Ken Mattingly[edit]

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(Posted) Sam Bankman-Fried conviction[edit]

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Support alt1 or alt2 per above. Enormous media and public attention (public interest), lots of rich and famous people involved. JM (talk) 02:32, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - maybe we should put up the courtroom sketch PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:27, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed, pulled) Now and Then (Beatles song)[edit]

Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate

  • Support: Only two unsourced parts (from a quick skim). I don’t think including “ English rock band” is necessary at all, because I mean, they’re the Beatles, and I’m not sure if the citation in the personnel section is the best way to do it. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:13, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks. Altblurb with less spoonfeeding suggested, then. Also sidesteps contentious MOS:THEBAND. Moscow Mule (talk)
Support posting. It's Beatles, hey hey. Kirill C1 (talk) 14:48, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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RD: Junior Balaiah[edit]

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Weak oppose: Unsourced filmography, which is apparently awful Aaron Liu (talk) 18:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

November 1[edit]

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(Posted) RD: Brian Brain[edit]

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(Posted) 2023 World Series[edit]

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The ceremonial first pitch was thrown by George W. Bush to Pudge Rodriguez
  • The picture this time is not much better as it's another interview mugshot which is functionally the same as the previous one as the guy's not even in uniform and so there's no sign of the sport. The article has some much better action pics such as George Bush throwing out the first pitch or shots of other pitchers. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:49, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You see how terribly that image shows up in a thumbnail size, though, right? And Dubya is tangential to the 2023 WS while Seager was MVP. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:50, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The picture shows a crowded stadium and gives a better feel for the event as the throwing of the first pitch is a long-standing tradition. As it's a high-res pic, it can be cropped as shown. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is no obligation to show an action pic. The main issue some users had with the previous picture was image quality, which is not a concern here. We typically show the series MVP, so I don't know why you are arguing for (to me) what seems to be a meaningless photo of the G1 first pitch. Natg 19 (talk) 17:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It’s Andrew, he’s arguing because of his inherent calling to be disruptive to ITN/C.
The photo is fine, it shouldn’t be changed. The Kip 17:42, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The picture we're currently using isn't at all accurate or relevant as it was taken in 2016 when he was a rookie playing for the Dodgers. That's 7 years ago and so is quite misleading in showing him as he is now. And it doesn't show him playing so all I get out of it is that he then wore a similar check shirt to myself. The first pitch photo was actually taken at the event that we're reporting and was a significant part of the show. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC) Template:Ec[reply]
It’s good! Aaron Liu (talk) 18:16, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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(Posted) RD: Ady Barkan[edit]

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(Posted) RD: Bob Knight[edit]

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(Closed) Remnants of Theia found near Earth’s core[edit]

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Oppose on quality article has 3 citation tags, and it has only one line referrring to this discovery in the lead, which is not even covered in the body of the article. Also the blurb is gramatically incorrect JM2023 (talk) 22:09, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Minimal updates in the article, not clear which recent discovery is referred to. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 04:21, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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(Closed) 2023 AI Safety Summit[edit]

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  • Wait Hosting a summit in and of itself doesn't seem like a big deal. I'd be curious to see if they announce recommendations or a plan or something like that. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:59, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    28 countries have already issued the 'Bletchley Declaration', agreeing to collaborate on AI Safety and outlining several recommendations. And for the first ever summit on this matter that is attracting such a lot of high-profile individuals, and is very much In The News, I think it warrants a blurb. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 17:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Summits aren't important. If some law or declaration comes out of it, sure. ~~~
𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 17:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A declaration has come out of it PrecariousWorlds (talk) 17:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, lots of summits happen with important people but we don't post them all. Doubtful international significance QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 19:35, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above JM2023 (talk) 20:20, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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(Posted) 152830 Dinkinesh[edit]

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Now we have a good image, it's quite interesting and getting mainstream coverage such as the NYT. Andrew🐉(talk) 00:01, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we plan to blurb the rest of the 7 fly-bys as well. If so better get this to ITNR as well otherwise I don't see what makes this unique from the others that will take place. Gotitbro (talk) 04:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's already WP:ITN/R: "Arrival of spacecraft (to lunar orbit and beyond) at their destinations". The subsequent targets in this tour are spread out over 10 years and the next one is in 2025. And it's not as if ITN is overloaded as we haven't posted a new blurb for four days now. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:21, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2034 FIFA World Cup[edit]

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RD: Agha Hasan Askari[edit]

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