Wikipedia:Peer review/Ada Wong/archive2

Ada Wong

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Hey! I don't think I'm gonna wait a bit longer since we have made a lot of changes and that's all we can do for now. I want to make sure that the main opposers like David Fuchs and UndercoverClassicist that they are satisfied before sending the into FAC again soon. I am not entirely sure if I will tag a fictional character expert, but here we go Aoba47 (Feel free to ignore this if you're busy). Thank you! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:28, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47

I agree with Panini!'s point below. I also prefer "fictional character" over "character". It is just more precise.

I already added it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I am uncertain about the image chosen for the infobox. I would have personally gone with the most recognizable appearance of the character (like this one here) rather than the latest version. I think the original costume is more iconic for the character, and that image would better set up readers for the later discussions about this specific version of the red dress later in the article. That being said, I would be interested to see what other reviewers have to say about this selection.

The image that you provided diff is not loading btw, but I think you meant her RE4 outit right? I replaced it just now. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Apologies for that, but you did add the picture that I was referencing. I would remove File:Ada Wong.png as it is no longer necessary. Thank you for addressing this. Aoba47 (talk) 03:21, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No need to apologize and thanks! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 03:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just have two quick comments for now, but I will get to this review later in the week. I wanted to pointed these two things out as I happened to notice them while looking briefly at the article. Aoba47 (talk) 00:35, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for weighing in! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have a few comments on this sentence: Ada is a spy and mercenary who is often hired to steal biological weapons for villains, although she has betrayed her employers for her own agendas and saved protagonist Leon S. Kennedy from dire situations. To start with, the sentence starts in present tense, but then it shifts to past tense. I would be consistent throughout and since this is on plot information, I would go with present tense.

Attempted, not sure if this is fine. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I would go with a better descriptor for Leon S. Kennedy rather than "protagonist". I think it would be better to use something in-universe as after all, this sentence is about what is occurring in the game itself. I actually have not played any Resident Evil games, but from what I recall Kennedy is a police officer. If that is true, that would be a better descriptor.

Leon is not a police officer in Re4 and Re6, I'm thinking what I could replace to it so I can only think "protagonist" since In RE2, RE4, and RE6 he's a protagonist. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Thank you for the clarification. It makes sense that he would no longer be a police officer given what happens to him after the first game. Aoba47 (talk) 03:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Something about the has betrayed her employers for her own agendas seems off to me. I do not have a replacement in mind at the moment, but I still wanted to point it out. It could just be me over-thinking it, but it just reads a bit awkward and vague to me. It may be good to see what reviewers have to say about it.

Attempted to reword it 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

The villains link is unnecessary so I would remove it. Also, could the prose be more specific about who is working for? The "villains" word choice is quite broad to the point that it is not particularly useful for readers in my opinion.

Reworded 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I would remove the novelizations link in the several Resident Evil games, novelizations, and films part from the lead. I had thought the link would lead to an article or list about the Resident Evil novels and not just on novelizations in general. I would imagine that a majority of readers would already be familiar with this concept, and it would avoid the issue that I had with it. I know Jill Valentine uses this link, but I just do not see the value in it.

Done 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Is Sally Cahill notable enough to mention in the lead? If you want to keep this part, I would recommend revising the prose a bit to something like Sally Cahill originally voiced Ada for her initial video game appearance, and subsequently, other actresses have portrayed the character, including Li Bingbing and Lily Gao in the live-action Resident Evil films. Something about the current wording seems a bit off. For reference, I am meaning this sentence: Several actresses have portrayed the character, including Sally Cahill in her initial video game appearance, and Li Bingbing and Lily Gao in the live-action Resident Evil films. Again, it could just be me over-thinking it.

Replaced 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Is this sentence supported by citations in the article: Video game publications have described Ada as one of the best female video game characters. I see that the article laters says that she is one of the most popular female video game characters, but popularity is different than critics describing her as a great character. There are plenty of popular characters out there that critics do not like at all.

Replaced the word "most popular" into "best". 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I would avoid repeating "publications" in the lead's last paragraph as it does make the prose repetitive. Actually, I would say something like reviewers or journalists instead as they are the ones really saying this and not the actual publication.

Replaced. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

As a side-note, if you are planning on using File:Comiket 90 (29567958461).jpg for a possible TFA, then I believe that it would need to be used in the article itself (but I could be wrong). The only argument that I could see if its inclusion is if you have citations that describe the character as a popular choice for cosplayers or something along those lines.

Noted, but I don't think the cosplayer's image is needed anyway to add the reception since there's no reliable source about that. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

These are my comments for the lead. I hope that I am not coming across as overly nitpick-y. Apologies in advance for that. Some of these may just be me over-thinking things so feel free to disagree or to see how other reviewers respond. I will revisit the lead again once I really go through the article, but these are mostly prose-related things I have noticed. Aoba47 (talk) 02:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should be the one who should be thankful for reviewing this article. I replied to each of your concerns already. I'm not sure if the present tense thing is fine now, but I attempted to change it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 03:05, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad that I am able to help. I have made a minor change to the tense part (here), but feel free to revert it if you disagree with that change. Just as one more quick suggestion, but I would revise this part, for unknown organizations such as Albert Wesker as Wesker is not an organization. Maybe something like such as one led by Albert Wesker, but feel free of course to see what you think works best. Aoba47 (talk) 03:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for that suggestion! Replaced it, though my conom has made some slight changes [1]. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 03:30, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for letting me know. It still has a weird tense shift then as the first part of the sentence is in present tense and the second part is in past tense. Aoba47 (talk) 15:57, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, sorry about that. I ended up reverting my conom's edit. Thanks again. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 16:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The infobox credits Hideki Kamiya, Noboru Sugimura, and Kazunori Kadoi as creating Ada Wong as a character, but unless I am overlooking something, there is not a clear sentence in the actual article that explicitly states and gives a citation to back it up. Instead the article makes the process seem more piece-meal with Kadoi creating the name for the first Resident Evil game, Kamiya expanding on that reference for Resident Evil 2, and Sugimura changing Kamiya's original plan entirely. Based on the information given in the article, I would not count Kadoi as one of the character's creators as they just made the name (and only the first one at that). To avoid this kind of confusion, I'd have a clear sentence with a clear citation.

Removed Kadoi as one if the creators. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

That does not address my entire point though. Aoba47 (talk) 01:02, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll admit I just woke up at that time while making changes. So sorry for that. I have made the changes [2]. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I will get to this part more thoroughly once I read that section. Aoba47 (talk) 15:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is super nitpick-y so apologies in advance, but I would reword a U.S. government cover-up to a cover-up by the U.S. government as I could see some readers taking issue with having two wiki-links in a row per WP:SEAOFBLUE. I do not have any issue with it, and it is admittedly minor, but in my opinion, it is an easy fix just in case.

Reworded 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I have a question about "Separate Ways". Is there anything new or notable that was revealed or added that may be notable enough to mention here? I have a similar question for "Ada's Report", which means Ada's motives behind her mission without saying exactly what they are so it comes off as rather vague.

Added a bit from Ada's report. For "Separate Ways", I'm not sure what to add tbh since in the remake, it is now a DLC instead of minigame, but the appearances should be more faithful to their original appearance. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

This does not really answer my question. I believe the addition to the "Ada's Report" part does not help with the prose. My question is whether or not "Separate Ways" or "Ada's Report" add anything new that should be discussed in the article. Do we learn anything new in "Separate Ways" since the story is told from Ada's perspective and what exactly are these motives that are revealed in "Ada's Report"? Aoba47 (talk) 01:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I made some changes [3]. In "Separate Ways," she ends up fighting a unique boss fight, unlike in the main game, and it also has a thing where she escapes the notorious laser room. But I think the only notable one is how she cared for Leon when she was ordered to be killed by Wesker but ended up helping him. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the link. That looks much better to me. Aoba47 (talk) 15:42, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is more of a clarification question than anything, but given the time jumps between games, going from 1998 in Resident Evil 2 to 2013 in Resident Evil 6, is Ada's age ever addressed or discussed in game (as in if she gets noticeably older or if for whatever reason her aging has slowed or stopped)?

When we were building the appearances section, none if the sources that mention about her age at all. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Thank you for the response. That makes sense to me. I was just curious because 15 years pass between the character's first appearance to seemingly her last one so I was just curious if that was discussed in any way, but I could see that kind of detail being overlooked or avoided. Aoba47 (talk) 01:02, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, but I doubt journalists cares about their age. Jill Valentine doesn't have age information either if I recall, only the death island Kotaku source where it was claimed that she age very slow; because she got infected during the events of Resident Evil: 3 Nemesis) 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:39, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would think that Kotaku source would be helpful (if it was published between 2010 and 2022 as that is the period of time that WP:VG/RS considers Kotaku reliable), but I will leave that up to you. Aoba47 (talk) 15:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, Ada didn't appear in Death Island and there's no mention about Ada in that article. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 17:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for that. For some reason, I thought you said Ada was the one mentioned in the article and not Jill. Sorry for that. Aoba47 (talk) 18:55, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I remember the "Concept and design" section briefly touch on Ada's relationship with Leon, specifically the kiss in the remake, but the plot summary does not really mention anything about a potential romantic relationship. Shouldn't that be brought up here in some capacity? It does make the discussion about the "ambiguous romance" she has with Leon a little surprising.

~~They are never confirmed to be each other just in case. Its like Ada just used Leon to steal a sample of the virus from Re2 to Re4.~~ In short, Ada kinda likes Leon, but is unsure about that as a spy. Any idea about that Aoba?

This contradicts this sentence from later in the article: (In Resident Evil 2, she develops an ambiguous romance with Leon as they save each other's lives throughout the game.) This makes it out like the two characters had at least some level of romance. If that is not true, then this sentence would need to be changed. Aoba47 (talk) 01:23, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47 I played the game like a decade and probably forgotten it (I didn't played the RE2 remake yet. I reached out to people at Resident Evil discord and they said that they indeed have feelings each other, but Capcom just didn't confirm they are lovers (My bad). Sorry for confusing you. I added it [4]. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for addressing this point. Aoba47 (talk) 15:48, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Were there any reviews or further behind the scenes information about Ada's appearances in the live action or animated movies? I would think that in particular there would be some reviews for her appearance in Resident Evil: Retribution and Resident Evil: Damnation or the choice to kill her offscreen for the Paul W. S. Anderson or save her for a mid-credits scene in the reboot.

Only this Kotaku source [5], but I recall Damien said the reception is mostly about film rather than Ada. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Thank you for the response. I agree with Damien's position on that source. It could be just a case where critics did not discuss Ada's role in the movie that much. That could be because this is a later installment in a film franchise that was not well-regarded or because Ada's role was more minor or not as noticed by critics who are not familiar with the Resident Evil games. I looked up reviews to double-check this and the most that I could find was a critic saying that all the characters, Ada included, seemed interchangeable. Aoba47 (talk) 01:02, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For asymmetric online multiplayer game , I would link asymmetric gameplay as not all readers will be familiar with it.

Done 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I would unlink novelizations in the article per the same reasons that I suggested it should be unlinked in the lead.

Done 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

For Set a few days after the events of the game, they follow, I think it would best to use the game's name to avoid having readers look back up to see what is being referenced here.

Done 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

For Several comic books based on the games were released, I would clarify that she has appeared in some of these comic books as this seems more like a general statement that Resident Evil comics exist and does not really connect with Ada.

Added a sentence. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I hope that these comments are helpful. I am really enjoying the article so far. Although I have never actually played a Resident Evil game myself (and if I did, I would honestly go back to one of the classic ones), I have always remember this character in particular. I think her character design was so striking and sparked a lot of conversation (although I completely understand why they would change this for the remake). Most of these comments are on the "Appearances" section, aside from the initial comment about the character's creators. Let me know if anything needs further clarification and of course, feel free to disagree with anything. Aoba47 (talk) 21:28, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for the review Aoba! I think I resolved all of your concerns, but I'm not sure the relationship thing at plot though. I'm wondering if you did not find any issues at Reception section, such as the placement of the discussion because ny FAC previously was closed unsuccessful due to the "overuse of quotes", which I trimmed right now. Thank you! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have not gotten to the "Reception" section yet. My comments are up to the "Concept and design" part. I have not read anything after that. I have left some comments up above to some of your responses. Aoba47 (talk) 01:02, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I already made some comments above. Thanks! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for addressing those points. I will continue to read through the article later today and post more comments then. Thank you for your patience and apologies for doing this in a more piece-meal fashion. Aoba47 (talk) 15:49, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. No, I don't think its a problem from me. Thank you again! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 17:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would link and fully spell out downloadable content in Note b.

Linked 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

It seems that Ada is briefly playable in 2019 remake of Resident Evil 2 so I would mention that in the "Appearances" section.

Added 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

This is more of a clarification question, but the original character Alice from the original Resident Evil films wears a red dress in the first installment. Was there any discussions or comparisons between that and Ada's dress?

I did not find anything about that comparison. She only appears in a single film of RE and it didn't attract attention at all sadly. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Just to be clear, I was not asking about Ada's appearance in the movie. I was asking about if any sources drew connections between Alice's appearance in the film with Ada's as they both wear red dresses. I doubt reviewers made that connection, but I was just curious. Aoba47 (talk) 00:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I see. I tried but found nothing. I did not know Alice wore red dress at that film, that's cool; but the film is awful. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 08:13, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did any of the sources cover any alternate costumes for the character? For instance, I see in this video that the Resident Evil 4 remake does include different versions of the red dress (although not the same).

Saldy no. It is really unfortunate that it didn't received a lot of attention. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I could not find much either. There may be something in the guidebooks like those from BradyGames, but those are not accessible online. It is understandable that they would not be covered here as it appears that her alternative costumes did not get enough coverage to support inclusion (unlike other characters in the series). Thank you for your explanation. Aoba47 (talk) 00:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For this sentence, In early versions of the script, Ada was a researcher named Linda who helps the player throughout the story, but this was changed for the final game., I would clarify at the start that this is for Resident Evil 2 as it may confuse readers who jump to this section. I'd instead say In early versions of Resident Evil 2.

Replaced 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

For this sentence, could you clarify how Ada is mentioned in the first game: The name "Ada" was first mentioned in the original Resident Evil (1996) by designer Kazunori Kadoi.?

Attempted. Also, see my comment above since this is related. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I would re-examine that part as it is now repeating Kazunori Kadoi twice. I will try to clarify my question. I read this sentence as saying that Ada's name is mentioned in the first Resident Evil game. I looked it up and apparently her name was a password and mentioned in a letter. I was more so curious if there were any sources or any ways to clarify in the prose exactly how this name is mentioned in the original game as it is not really clear at the moment. Aoba47 (talk) 00:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm having hard time to find more sources about this info other than Siliconera. It says from this source "The current director of the Resident Evil 2 remake, Kazunori Kadoi, was the one who came up with Ada’s name in the first game. When it came for the time to make 2, where Kamiya and the key staff wanted to turn Ada into her own character, they dragged Kadoi into the development meeting to ask what sort of person she was. Kadoi answered that he just randomly wrote ‘Ada’ without much thought." I know it's still unclear because he just randomly thought about it. If it's still unclear maybe I should remove it @Aoba47? Update I did end up removing it because it was too unclear and even the opposer's main concern was this. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:43, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the update. I think her mention in the first Resident Evil game is important enough to keep as that is the moment that Kazunori Kadoi came up with the name. Without this sentence, it is misleading on where the name came from. My previous question was more so about if there were any sources that covered this. Since that is not the case, further details cannot be added to the article, but I do not think the solution should be to remove it altogether as it creates a gap in the information (i.e. when Kadoi suggested the name in the development process). Aoba47 (talk) 02:30, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I restored it. Thanks! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is another nitpick-y comment, but I would use a different word rather than "conceived" for he randomly conceived the name as it just seems a bitt off to me, but it could be a matter of personal preference so I did not change it myself.

Feel free to do any changes. Tbh, I don't know what to change about this one like above. Because in Siliconera source, it only says that Kadoi just randomly thought about Ada. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I ended up shortening it to "he randomly thought of the name" as the "randomly" part already implies that he did not think of it for any deeper meaning. Aoba47 (talk) 00:45, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For this part, After it was scrapped, avoid using "scrapped" as it is too informal for Wikipedia.

Replaced into "discarded" 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I am assuming that we do not have any further background information about about Isao Ohishi and Ryoji Shimogama and their approach to the character design. Would that be correct?

Unfortunately no, I just used the primary source for the design info. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Is "Separate Ways" really a minigame? When I looked it up online, it looks more like a fully-fleshed out mission, and one of the citations references it as downloadable content. I do not think that fits what is expected for a minigame. I think more of something from Mario Party for that.

In the original RE4, its a minigame while in the Re4 remake, it is now DLC. I ended up removing the word "minigame" to avoid confusion. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense as upon doing further research, I have seen sources for the original game describe it as a minigame so it seems to have been expanded for the remake. Aoba47 (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have not gotten to the "Reception" section yet, but I wanted to know that this Polygon source has good information about Ada Wong and Asian stereotypes, specifically the Dragon Lady. I would think that would be notable enough for inclusion and to attempt to pull together something about how the games treat Ada's Asian identity.

I was hesitant to add before since Fuchs and UndercoverClassicist hate the "overuse of quotes", but I readded it now. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

You should remove a source and information because an editor is concerned you are using too many quotes. That critique is more so asking you to paraphrase and better integrate the information from the source into the article, not to remove it altogether. Aoba47 (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I already reworded it now again and relocated it into 1st paragraph. Thanks! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:34, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be possible to introduce Ethan Winters with something other than "protagonist". As someone who has never played or even seen Resident Evil Village, it is unclear who this person is and how he relates to the story.

Replaced into "Civilian". 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Is there any further information on the "conflicting scenarios" that kept Ada from appearing in Resident Evil Village or was this all that information that was given?

Nope, only that. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

These are my comments up the "Reception" section. I will look through that part of the article sometime over the weekend. I do not have too many comments for this time around, but I want to make sure I have enough time to do a thorough reading of the next section. Let me know if you have any questions about my comments and I hope that this helps. Aoba47 (talk) 20:23, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again! I've left some comments above, including the Kadoi stuff. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 23:03, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad that I can help. Aoba47 (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some additional sources to consider for inclusion. This one, "Women Agents and Double-Agents: Theorizing Feminine Gaze in Video Games", is focused on Ada Wong, and the one, "Serializing Accumulation: Resident Evil and the Synchronization of Hollywood Cinema and Japanese Television", is more so about Li Bingbing (i.e. her appearance was done to give the film a more international appeal and Sally Cahill actually did the dub for different languages). Both can be accessed through WP:The Wikipedia Library.

The first source you provided seems to be implemented already, which it was Feminism in Play or you mean to add more? I'll try to add the second source from 3rd paragraph. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for that I must have missed the first citation already being used. I would actually use the second citation for the "Voice-over and live-action actresses" subsection as that seems like a more apt place for it as it is focusing on the reasoning for Li Bingbing's casting and for Sally Cahill being used in the dubs for the films (or at least one of them). Aoba47 (talk) 02:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its my first time using the Wikipedia Library. Thanks for that and I already added it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the first paragraph of the "Reception" section would need to be rewritten. It jumps around between different topics seemingly at random and nothing is really tied together in a cohesive way. There is also not any real follow-up to clarify points to the reader. Why do people consider Ada to one of the best female video game characters? What about Ada being a femme fatale do critics enjoy? What about her relationship with Leon gets praised? I would encourage you to look at the following resource, WP:RECEPTION, as these sections are difficult to write. The second and third paragraphs have a much clearer focus and purpose by comparison.

Attempted to rewrite it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Is Ada really considered one of the best female video game characters? The first citation focuses on that, but the other two do not. The second citation is dead, but based on the title, it is more about her being one of the the best Asian video game characters. The third citation is about her being considered the fourth most popular Resident Evil character according to a poll. These citations do not appear to support the claim that is being made in the article.

Attempted to rewrite it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I would revise Game publications have described Ada Wong as critics, reviewers, etc. are the ones doing the describing, not the actual publication itself.

Attempted 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

This is more of a personal preference, but I would avoid things like expressed disappointment to just say was disappointed. Based on my experience, people view the "expressed X" as unnecessarily clunky and it would be better to be more direct.

Reworded 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have a few comments for this sentence: Her role was also compared to that of Ashley Graham, with Ada resisting patriarchal convention by remaining beyond the male protagonist's control. This seems like an interesting idea, but I really do not know what is being conveyed. Could this be clarified? I would also generally avoid the sentence construction "with X verb-ing". Even though I do not have a strong opinion about it, I have seen it brought up in enough FAC reviews to know to just avoid it altogether. I would also clarify who is making this point.

Tbh, its hard to reword it without "-ing" and it kinda sucks hehe. I attempted it, but not sure if its fine. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I also wanted to note that the Nae citation from the above sentence also includes a nice bit on the character's Asian identity and role as a femme fatale, which could be helpful for the article.

What source is that btw? Sorry for asking. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am talking about the Andrei Nae source (here) that is already used in the article. Aoba47 (talk) 02:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like it was located in the notes section, since in his conclusion he only said "submissive" femme fatale. Added it [6]. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I have a question about this part, and that their alternate combat attire helped avoid criticism of pandering to the male gaze. Does the source go further into this "alternate combat attire"? I was just curious as it ties back into my earlier question about if there was coverage on alternate costumes for the character.

Not anymore + I just found this at Jill Valentine's article :D 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by not anymore? Aoba47 (talk) 02:46, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I mean that the source does not go further more. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am uncertain about this, Critic Jenny Platz opined that Ada is genderfluid. Does Platz really just flat-out say that the character is genderfluid? It is a bit of an odd interpretation, and I could not find it when I looked at the source (although I may have missed it).

She indeed said that Ada fulfills genderfluidity, though it makes sense that you haven't seen it because I wrongfully place the wrong page in the citation. Thanks for spotting it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:58, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am on the fence about this myself, but do you think the article should discuss what aspects of Lily Gao's vocal performance is getting review bombed?

I'm not quite sure about that since I'm not sure that the sources were specific about that, unlike the Polygon and TheGamer sources, but I don't think it's safe to use TheGamer source for the reception section since it's not a high-quality source as it was only used once to support the claim. Leaving only the Polygon as a source (which I already used). 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that these comments are helpful. I will look through this section again next week. This is the part of the article that will need the most work before pursuing another FAC. Please let me know if there is anything that I need to clarify, and I hope you are having a great weekend so far. Aoba47 (talk) 23:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I really wish I could pull this up because, as a non-native speaker of English, this is really tough. I was working on this article further after being inspired by your work on Jill's article, and surprisingly, I am a fan of RE (I'm very glad you brought that up to FA). Thank you so much for really assisting me! I am attempting to rewrite it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:02, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would not be too hard on yourself. You have put a lot of time and work in this article and it is something that you should be proud of. Reception sections are notoriously difficult to write well and on a level expected for a FA even for native speakers of English. I have a lot of respect for you for tackling this article in your non-native language. You have done the right thing by going through the peer review process as getting feedback from as many editors as possible will only help with that. I hope that other people will review this article in the future. I am happy to hear that the Jill Valentine article inspired you, but all the credit should go to Homeostasis07. I would not give up on this article, and I hope to see it promoted to a FA someday in the future. Aoba47 (talk) 02:51, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tbh, after looking at Jill's FACs, it wouldn't be successful without you (not gonna discredit Homeostasis, but yeah) I really apologize for using your time Aoba. Thank you so much, and it really means a lot to me and for this article! I'll attempt whatever I can. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No apologies necessary. I am glad that I can help. I am really enjoying reading the article. I have always vaguely remembered this character so it is nice to actually get around to learning more about her. Fictional character articles have always been my favorite part of Wikipedia so I am always happy to see editors working on them. It is very inspiring for me. Best of luck with the edits. Again, I know that this section in particular can be difficult and rather intimidating, but I believe that you can get there. Aoba47 (talk) 03:08, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted to note you something though that the other editor may be right about the edit [7]. He moved it to the concept and design section. Thanks again! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for addressing everything. I am going to take a step back from the peer review to allow other editors to look through the article and post their own comments. I just have one quick point. This part, Some journalists praised her as a femme fatale, which she was considered as a "coldhearted" femme fatale by Harri Chan of Polygon, is repetitive. It is saying that journalists enjoyed her characterization as a femme fatale and then goes on to say Chan calls the character a femme fatale, which has already been established. I would pull something else from the Chan source. Other than that, best of luck with the peer review. I hope that other reviewers participate in this. Aoba47 (talk) 16:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I replaced it. Thank you so much again Aoba47. Have you not find any issues at Reception section? The only remaining reviewer would probably be PanagiotisZois, but I'm not quite if I should ping again UndercoverClassicist and Fuchs? Wdyt? I'll try to renominate it for FAC at Sep2 as much as possible if there is no significant or possible issues because I will be probably be inactive starting mid October. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the prose for the "Reception" section in general could use further work. It has gotten better, I would personally keep the peer review up longer. That is really up to you though. PanagiotisZois is a great editor so I am sure that they will help a lot in their review. You could try leaving a message on UndercoverClassicist and Fuchs's talk pages to ask if they have the time or interest to participate in this peer review. As long as you are polite, I do not think that it would be an issue (but just leave one message and if they do not respond, then I'd leave them be as they may be busy or not interested). I hope that answers your questions, but I would do what you think is best for you. Aoba47 (talk) 23:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I'll let the peer review stay a bit longer for now. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 23:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Panini!

Lead

I'm personally against this new ideology of removing "fictional" from "fictional character", but to each their own.

Added it 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I did this one comment and then felt really sick out of nowhere, so give me a bit lol Panini! • 🥪 18:20, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see hehe. Take your time 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alright I'm back. I had late energy to figure out what's going on here and clean up the mess, but I am well rested and I'm going to peer review the crAP outta this one.

Lead (actually)

I like the new image! I agree with Aoba on this stuff, I much rather prefer the most recognizable instance over the most recent. I despise the image on Sans (Undertale) and Megalovania. I also just like how this image is brighter and more clear.
"Ada is a spy and mercenary who is often hired to steal biological weapons for villains, although she has betrayed her employers for her own agendas and saved protagonist Leon S. Kennedy from dire situations." This is a good explanation of the character, but what I think would also be important to include is how she is related to Leon. As in, in the games how did they meet? How did their stories intertwine?

They just met each other in-game during the outbreak of Raccoon City and saved each other plenty of times despite attempting to steal sample of the virus from Leon at the end. Since the lead is just a summarization, I think the explaination at appearance section would be fine already or do you got any suggestions? Update: I made some changes per Aoba above. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Considering how the third paragraph is two sentences I recommend merging it with the one above.

Im sorry Panini! I don't like the outcome after merging it, the article looked too flimsy and I made it for consistency in Jill Valentine's article (another FA). 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Concept and design

I would link mercenary. Embarrassingly, I had to look up what a mercenary was before I watched Deadpool and Wolverine.

I also had no idea what it was and I ended up searching at google before adding "mercenary" to this article.

Done 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Could you explain what "Umbrella" is to the folks at home who don't know anything about the games? (I'm the folk at home who don't know anything about the games.)

Done 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

I'm seeing below that this is mentioned in "Appearances". You're following the norm, but personally I really think "Apperances" should come before "Concept and creation" so these fictional concepts are more digestible. I asked about this here for my sake.

For consistency for the other RE articles like FA Jill Valentine. Concept and design goes first because RE is much more complex. If we end up changing the format then the article would suffer another issue (Which I fear). I ended up making the changes ~~and I'm kinda a bit unhappy that I am being forced to remove the chronological graph with the changes, but I think its fine anyway.~~ Heads up Aoba47, Chris Woodrich and JokEobard to let them know about this situation. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

"Ada has also been voiced by Megan Hollingshead in Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles, and Courtenay Taylor in Resident Evil: Operation Raccoon City, Resident Evil 6, and Resident Evil: Damnation." In a case like this where the titles are back to back, you can drop "Resident Evil:" in these instances to make it easier to read. (Except the one from Resident Evil 6, since there is no subheader in that one)

I think Its fine per other reviewers and Jill Valentine article. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Reception

Is it possible to be more specific about criticisms pertaining to her character beyond calling her a mean word I won't repeat? To me it feels dismissive of the criticisms, and doesn't summarize what exactly they don't like about her personality.

I added a tidbit, but that word is literally the only criticism from magazine. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Is it also possible to dive into more cultural impact, if there is some? I would assume you have already checked for comprehensiveness, but if there is no more sources to find, then WP:DUEWEIGHT is needed for the bold claim of being the GOAT. What additional specifics can you jump into about her? Did they praise the character's dialogue, or her role in the game perhaps? If more than one source makes a positive statement, by all means include them!

Added 2 sources. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔)

Panini! • 🥪 17:19, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Panini! I think I resolved all of your concerns. Thank you! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 23:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reception (More)

While I was reading the section and wondering why it still lacked critical reception for her role in the games beyond the character itself, I found that it's because of the sources you used. The ones you used are exclusively about Ada—which is great, because it proves notability and you definitely should be using them—but because of this, they are going to be analyzing her, as in, just her. I feel what you need to complete the comprehensiveness of this section is find critical opinions based on her roles in the games as well.

If it's possible, because I had a hard time doing it, could you look through the reviews of the games that she's in? Are you able to cite those? Usually in the game reviews they slip in thoughts about the characters. Maybe one of them said something about Ada within them that you can cite as more critical opinions on the character. If not, this general femme fatale-centered sections works perfectly fine. Panini! • 🥪 19:39, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Panini!. Unfortunately, I couldn't really find a bit commentary that is valuable/notable about her role at game reviews (I wouldn't add a trivial commentary for other reviewers also) since she's a spy whose background is not yet known or hasn't really explored yet. Even Niemti couldn't find that much when he was building this article way back 2014. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did a lookthrough as well, I couldn't find anything, and therefore I have no more gripes. Good work! Panini! • 🥪 16:00, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for the review! I'm glad that you don't find any issues at reception section anymore. Goodluck to the Mario article! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:01, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Crisco 1492

I ended up doing a bit of a review on my talk page. I'm leaving a link here for a paper trail: permalink. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

JokEobard pinged just in case. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Boneless Pizza! and JokEobard. I just finished GOG's re-release of Resident Evil 2 (1998) for PC, and I see that this edition contains some concept art: Ada in the outfit that ended up used in the game, Ada in a mini-skirt and short trench, Ada in shorts, a red shirt, and a white jacket with the Umbrella logo, and Ada in black pants, a red turtleneck (reminds me of her Re4Make appearance), and Umbrella windbreaker. Are any of these concept arts worth including in the article? The last two appear to be from the early "Umbrella researcher" design. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:17, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, yeah a later art has the Ada + white jacket together with the Ezra Walker design. Definitely 1.5 material. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I actually thought that before, but the discussion at the concept design section were not that indepth for it to be included sadly (I'm not quite sure though). 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:45, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A case may be made for a FUR for before/after, as the article discusses the shift from "researcher" in 1 and 1.5 to "spy" in 2. But just an idea - I know Jill has a similar comparison, with what appears to be a similar amount of discussion. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:13, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm fair enough. What image are we uploading? This one? [8] 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 23:16, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't able to open that one. I pulled this from the RE2. It would have to be downsampled. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:40, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to ask a source until I found it on RE fandom. I'll add it shortly. Thanks! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 01:22, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, mine are from the PC edition of RE2 (Leon campaign has sketches, Claire has 3D renders) — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:39, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I'm aiming for Claire Redfield article next if Ada Wong would be success. Anyway @Crisco 1492, I already added the image. Not sure if the caption is fine, but feel free to copyedit it, including the WP:FUR. Many thanks =). ] 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 02:03, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PanagiotisZois

Comments from here may prove useful regarding Ada's role in Resident Evil 4 and the creation of the "Separate Ways" minigame. Will add some additional comments later. PanagiotisZois (talk) 22:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nice finding right there. I already adddd it and thank you for that. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 23:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appearances

"until she is outed as a mercenary" and "Despite being severely wounded". Shouldn't the article mention that it was Annette Birkin that outed her as a spy and shot her? At the very least, Annette should be mentioned in the second instance, as without it the sentence doesn't make much sense.

Added, but also I will update you [9] 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 09:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Later ports of Resident Evil 4 for PlayStation 2 include", given that the PS2 was the first console RE4 was ported to after the GameCube, and every version afterwards had "Separate Ways", the article should mention that. Maybe say "Later ports of Resident Evil 4, starting with the PlayStation 2 version, include".

Replaced 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 09:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little surprised that this section doesn't mention The Umbrella Chronicles at all. Especially given that Ada's campaign from the Resident Evil 3 segment actually shows us how she managed to escape Raccoon City after the events of RE2.

Hi. We don't usually include side games (only main appearances) at appearances section, per other reviewers like FA Jill Valentine's article also, but we did end up added at the end of RE2 that she indeed escape Raccoon City. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 09:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Understandable. The sections looks all right to me, so I'll soon move on to the next one. PanagiotisZois (talk) 09:42, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does The Little Runaway Sherry actually feature Ada? PanagiotisZois (talk) 09:00, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. I ended up removing it. Thanks for pointing it out. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 09:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Concept and design

Something I'm wondering. The section states that early drafts of Resident Evil 2 had a character named Linda, who was a researcher for Umbrella. Then, that the "Ada" character was conceived by Kazunori Kadoi for the original game. Then, that Hideki Kamiya decided to transform Ada into a full-fledged character. Does that mean that initially, Ada and Linda were separate characters? That Linda was developed as an Umbrella researcher first, and then was it decided to turn Ada into a full-fledged character, and then it was decided to combine to the "characters"? As in, because Kamiya wanted to turn Ada into an actual character, he decided to combine her with the Linda character?

The first sentence is just a summary throughout the whole 1st paragraph. Readers should start the feel where Ada was mentioned in the 1st RE game. I decided to reword at the end [10] to avoid confusion. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:23, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Ada is briefly a playable character in the remake". Wasn't she also playable briefly in the original game?

I forgot about that. Oops. Removed 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:23, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"create something that could feature Ada". The word "something" is a bit broad. Did he specifically want to create a minigame/separate campaign?
1. Also, "the development time had grown too long". I'm guessing this means that Kawata wanted to include an Ada Campaign in the GameCube version, but was unable to do so. If that is so, it should be specified.
2. "a unique game". Is game the word used in the source? Again, it is a bit ambiguous. Did he mean minigame?--PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:10, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PanagiotisZois So sorry that I am having trouble at rewording this one. I'll copypaste what was written at the source you've provided.

GI: Let’s talk about Separate Ways. Was this your idea? How it all come about?

Kawata: Actually while we were thinking about the game itself we realized that the development time was actually very long and we wanted to add something to the game more than just porting it. We wanted to really add something to the game and one of the things we realized was that Ada shows up in the game later but you don’t know much about her and she’s a very strong character and she deserves to really stand out in the game. So we really wanted to give her that side story in order to let her stand out the way she should have in the game. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 00:52, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PanagiotisZois Reworded it. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 06:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do have to say that the first paragraph, the way it is now, makes much more sense in pointing out that Linda and Ada started out as two separate characters—more or less—until they were combined into one by the game's release.
Concerning the third paragraph, having read over the first half of the article, when Kawata says that "the development time of the game had grown too long", he's not referring to the original version of RE4 for the GameCube. That they wanted to include it there but were unable to. He's saying that when they were developing the PS2 post of the game, they realized that the development cycle would be too long, and rather than just porting it, they wanted to add new content. It was then that they decided to create a minigame involving Ada, given that she shows up late in the game and players don't get the chance to see or learn much about her involvement. It was this desire to show more of Ada, especially given that she's a "very strong character" that they created "Separate Ways"; so that she would "stand out" how she should have in the main game itself. I might be wrong, but I believe that's what Kawata is saying.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 14:16, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PanagiotisZois reworded again for the second time. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 16:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for being so stingy with this. I appreciate you taking the time to rewrite that section, but I decided to do it myself, in the hopes that as much useful information from the source as possible is transplanted to the article. If you think my wording of it is wrong, I understand you rewriting it. I do think this section is fine, so I'll probably move on to the last one soon. PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its totally fine. Thanks a lot for assisting us! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 22:16, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your kind words. I will try to look over the "Reception" section within the next few days. Glancing over at the section, the third paragraph seems fine. I do wonder if maybe information about Ada's other voice actresses should also be included-like Sally Cahill or Courteney Taylor, and whether their performances were viewed as good or bad-but unless such a thing received as much coverage as Lily Gao's performance, I guess it's fine to just have the paragraph be about her. PanagiotisZois (talk) 11:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also appreciate you for being too helpful. I actually went deep before and found no reception at all about their voice, aside from Lily Gao. Tbf, Jill Valentine article doesn't also :D. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 11:45, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I assumed so. Then I'll just look at the first two paragraphs. One thing I will say is this: at least some information from the "Concept and design" section should be included in the introduction to Ada's article. PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:00, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PanagiotisZois I'm actually fine with that, but my co-nom JokEobard disagreed with it as he was basing multiple reviewers on multiple Jill Valentine FACs and also for consistency. A tiny bit of info from that section was already at the lead's 1st paragraph as her name was first mentioned at the first RE game. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:04, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oof... I assumed Jill's article would be brought up. Well, this is a peer review, not a FAC, so my opinion doesn't matter much right now. But I do think it is a pretty huge omission to not mention anything about how a character was designed. In fact, I'm still a bit surprised that Jill's article became FA without a single reference to the "Concept and design" section in the lede. I recently worked on a FAC for Iron Man, and although the introduction there doesn't mention everything from his "Publication history" section, it does at least bring up a few things. Same with the Tidus article. But again, this is something that I'll leave up to you and other editors when this article goes to FAC. And to be completely honest, it is an "issue" that is very easily fixed, if necessary. PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
~~@PanagiotisZois Fair enough. I already added it [11]~~ Update @PanagiotisZois, my conom already agreed and copyedited [12]. Many thanks for the suggestion! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reception - Paragraph #1

I'll discuss the first paragraph first:

The first sentence states Ada has received positive responses from critics, but brings up only two sources.

Reworded 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Probably would flow better if it was a single sentence with a full stop, and then we go to the Guardian source.
The Guardian praises her intelligence.

Reworded 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Following this, the paragraph moves to discussing Ada's status as a femme fatale / Dragon Lady.

It's stated that Ada is a femme fatale, which Polygon and The Escapist approved of.
1. Andrei Nae's thoughts on the topic are discussed in reference to her status as an Asian woman.
The comments from Play editor Gavin Mackenzie don't really match up to the previous ones about her being a femme fatale. The fact that they're part of the same sentence with the previous ones by Chan makes them stand out like a sore thumb. The fact that the immediate next sentence is also about Ada's sexuality does that even more. Honestly, I don't see how his comments add anything to the article. And in my opinion, they don't even make much sense. How is her being a "bitch" in RE4 in any way related to her apparent death in RE2?

Fair enough. It was taken in the listicle content article anyway. I removed it 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Same goes for Mike Wehner's comments at the end of the paragraph. They have nothing to do with the discussion of Ada's sexuality.

Removed 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"improve female gamers' gaming experiences" to "improve the gaming experiences of female gamers". Partly so that "gaming" and "gamers'" aren't next to each other.

Reworded 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Although the second paragraph also discusses Ada's sexuality, particularly with the male gaze as the intro states, I wanted to focus on paragraph #1 only. Although the paragraph brings up that Ada has gotten positive reviews from critics, it's doesn't really bring up why exactly she has been well-received. According to The Guardian, it is because of her intelligence, but the paragraph then moves on to discussing her sexuality. And ignoring the comments by Mackenzie and Wehner for a second, it doesn't really seem that most of the comments here are positive ones. I mean, Lara Crigger's comments are positive, but while Chan does state that Ada's "characterization complimented Resident Evil 4's 'schlocky action-movie energy'", only a few sentences down, it's stated that Chan didn't like how this characterization plays into the Orientalist stereotype of the Dragon Lady.

I reworded it per above comment also.

As for Jennings, her being "dissapointed with the games' complete whitewashing of her Chinese heritage" is something that falls more in like with racial studies than gender studies; although given that the Dragon Lady archetype which is discussed here is about Asian women, Ada's gender and race are often heavily connected in discussions of her. More importantly, given the fact that Jennings specifically brings up the female gaze in her paper, I wonder if it would be more appropriate to place it in the second paragraph?

Moved at 2nd paragraph. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reception - Paragraph #2

Now, let's get to Paragraph #2. I want to paraphrase this by saying that I'm not an expert on exactly what the male gaze is. I think it's more about how a female character dresses and how much skin she's showing - how sexualized she is - as well as how the camera focuses on her for male appeal.

It starts of well by discussing how Ada has "repeatedly been brought into broader analyses of the male gaze in video games".

Reworded a bit tk "sexualized". 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"she defies patriarchal conventions in a way that Nae compared her role to Ashley Graham's". What exactly does this mean? How did Nae compare Ada's role in Resident Evil 4 to Ashley's? Did he state that while Ada defies patriarchal conventions by not needing Leon's help, Ashley conforms to them by being a damsel in distress that needs his help? Because if that's the case, then Nae probably didn't "compare" Ada to Ashley, so much as "contrast" one from the other.

TBH, this is the hardest part to write since a lot of reviewers has issues with this. It was written lime this at the book (below):

The not-yet hypermasculinity of Leon S. Kennedy is also reflected in the game’s scripted narrative whose approach to gender is indebted to noir cinema. The game’s two main female characters, Ashley Graham and Ada Wong correspond to the submissive woman-femme fatale character couple. While Leon’s authority over Ashley is never contested as she obeys him throughout the entire game, Ada Wong is the femme fatale whose disobedience of patriarchy demands regulation. However, contrary to the conventions of noir cinema and in synch with Leon S. Kennedy’s incomplete hypermasculinity, Ada remains outside the ambit of the male protagonist’s authority. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Also, given that the section up to now had been about the male gaze and Ada's body/outfit, it seems strange to go on talk about her role in the game in terms of her gender.

Moved to 1st paragraph. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Anita Sarkeesian, did she criticize all of Ada's costumes, or just the one from RE4? Because if that's the case, it seems that this section has a recurring theme. Ada's qipao dress from Resident Evil 4, and how it was very sexualized.
1. Relating to this, if Sarkeesian and her views on Ada's outfit are spelled out, I think it would help this section if the same thing happened with the sources from the sentence that ends with "holding that her appearance was intended to appeal to male audiences". Point out exactly who said what. The sentence itself doesn't necessarily have to change, but you could add what each one said about her qipao dress.

I see. I did merged it now. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The section about Esther MacCallum-Stewart is fine, although given that the paragraph as a whole seems to be about Ada's dress, I would change a few things. Maybe have it as "Conversely, digital media scholar Esther MacCallum-Stewart, who stated that Resident Evil's female characters possess unique qualities making them viable choices for players to select over their male counterparts, argued that their alternate combat attire helped avoid criticism of pandering to the male gaze".

Reworded 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Platz's comments at the end, they seem to be more about Ada's role in the game, rather than her dress. In that regard, it's probably better if the comments by Nae are place there with each other. That way, we don't go from talking about Ada's outfit in RE4, to her role in the game compared to Ashley's, then back to her attire, and then back to her gender.
1. Also, as I said earlier, I'm not an expert on the male gaze. Is Ada defying patriarchal conventions and being gender fluid something that relates to the male gaze? I do think the sources are good and the commentary should stay here. I'm just not sure if this paragraph is the one for it.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 10:37, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Both were placed at 1st paragraph already. Btw PanagiotisZois Many thanks for the review! I do have a problem about the Nae statement but I copylasted what he wrote at the book for you to know. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 12:23, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You have done great work with this article, and thank you for making changes based on my comments. I know I can be a bit annoying with them sometimes... Paragraph 1 looks much better now, and I really think we're starting to see a common theme here. That Ada is a character praised for her strong personality and character traits, who has also gotten praise for (as you say in the lede) being as competent as her male counterparts, and defying gender conventions. I will look over the Nae quote again to try and help you with it (if you want), but I do think the paragraph might be improved from taking everything from "Scholar Andrei Nae..." to "...any other path for character growth" and placing it at the end. That way, the sentence starts by showing that although Ada has gotten mostly praise as a character for her traits and status as a femme fatale, the fact that she is an Asian woman has caused some people to criticize her femme fatale-status as an example of the Orientalist "Dragon Lady" trope. PanagiotisZois (talk) 14:36, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Made some changes you thought here [13]. Nah, you're not "annoying". In fact, you did helped the article improved a lot just like what Aoba said above. So thank you for that. Anyways, if you have energy/time, feel free to make any changes. I apologize that I may suck at rephrasing Nae's quote (I already merged it). Thank you! 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 21:05, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the Nae quote, he brings up that the portrayal of gender in RE4 is heavily influenced by noir cinema. He notes that noir cinema often depicts women as either a "submissive woman" or a "femme fatale"; role that Ashley and Ada fulfil, respectively. According to Nae, Ashley's role as the Submissive Woman throughout the story is never challenged.

Conversely, Ada is a woman that challenges male authority and patriarchal conventions, by virtue of being a femme fatale. However, in contrast to most examples of femmes fatales in noir cinema, who eventually stop challenging male authority and submit to the male hero of the story—in the case of Resident Evil 4, Leon—Ada manages to remain out of the noir hero's control throughout the entirety of the story.

Essentially, Nae once more notes that Ada is a highly independent character, that challenges gender and genre conventions.

I see that although the Nae source remains in the article, this part from his paper is left out. In general, an issue that I've seen with this peer review is that often, you retain a source but remove much of what it says from the article. You shouldn't do that. I understand that you might be worried you're not paraphrasing it well, and I think you've said English isn't your first language. But your English skills, from what I've seen are very good, and just because your paraphrasing of a source may not be as good as it could be (in our subjective viewpoint), doesn't mean you should remove the text. The first paragraph looks really great now. And it starts off pretty strong. "Ada has received positive reviews from critics for her personality traits and defying gender conventions". OK, great. Now HOW does she defy gender conventions and for WHICH personality traits has she been well-received? A few edits ago, you included the comments from both the Guardian and Complex sources in the paragraph. Adding them back in would greatly improve the article and help us readers understand what critics and academics have to say about Ada. I understand I may be asking for a lot here, but I do want the article to be as good as it can be, and I am 100% you have the skills to do it.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 21:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@PanagiotisZois Thanks a lot. I'm more worried about the usage of quotes since 2 editors at FAC disliked and opposed to it. I made some changes again, but I'm not 100% sure if its fine for you. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 13:27, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess overusing quotes can be a problem. But if this becomes an issue in the future, one can simply paraphrase, so I don't think it's a big problem. I made a few more changes to the section. Hopefully the flow of information is better now. PanagiotisZois (talk) 15:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much. Do you got more issues to the article? if not then ill renominate it after few days. Aoba47 was really right that you're an good editor at fixing a lot of issues at reception section and it definitely flows better. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 15:57, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your kind words. You're very sweet. :) Now, one thing I did notice is this. In the (now) third paragraph, you say that "Ada's sexualization has repeatedly been brought into broader analyses of the character in video games". At the end of the sentence, you cite a few sources. However, two of the academic sources - the 2023 Stanton source and the one from 2018 by Gray and others - are never actually used in the article. What did Stanton have to say about the male gaze? Or Gray et al.? I'm not saying you have to use all of them, but as it stands now, only the opinion of two people is discussed in length; Esther MacCallum-Stewart and Stephanie Jennings. At the very least, I do think that, given her notoriety, Anita Sarkeesian's views should be put back in the article.

Also, I looked at one of the [versions] of the article, and was wondering why some of the sources where removed? For example, why was the Inverse source removed? Or the Famitsu and Game Informer ones? Were they unreliable, or did they have nothing useful to add to the article?

Also, looking at the earlier version of the article, I do think it's interesting that Chinese audiences responded negativly to Li's performance in Retribution. Something like that-the receptions to certain actresses and their performance of Ada-could make for an interesting discussion to have in the article. Were those sources removed for being unreliable, or because there weren't any other sources discussing Li's performance, so you thought it wasn't important enough to include? PanagiotisZois (talk) 16:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. First, the Game informer source doesn't have commentary and just included her to the list of best villain. The famitsu source did not mention Ada and it was misleading to include it. Second, Inverse was removed due to the reliability issue at FAC (I had no argument for it + its another listicle source) Third, Stanton source is still cited since she said only that she was designed to attract male audiences. Fourth, Gray et al. has no commentary about Ada and just included her picture, so I thought it would be bad idea to jsut cite her like that. And last is the Kotaku source about Retribution film that you said, it was removed since it is actually about the film instead of an actor according to the previous peer review (I also told Aoba47 about this above). 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 16:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. I see. In that case, I don't think I have any further comments. :) PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:30, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the detailed review and for the help! I'm pretty happy nlw how reception turns out. 🍕Boneless Pizza!🍕 (🔔) 19:48, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]