Wikipedia:Peer review/Amazing Grace/archive1

Amazing Grace

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Gracious. The most popular and well-known composition in the English-speaking world. I have no business writing about something that means so much to so many people. But here it is in Wikipedia. I think it thoroughly deserves an FA. I would appreciate any assistance getting it there. Thanks, Moni3 (talk) 14:36, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

"The most popular and well-known composition in the English-speaking world" - actually, I'd say Happy Birthday to You is. Majorly talk 23:11, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, there. Is this wording in the article now? ...one of the most recognized songs in the English-speaking world is, which is, of course, different than what you posted and is supported by citations. --Moni3 (talk) 23:23, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

No, it's what you wrote above :-) Majorly talk 23:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Well...sha...ff...read the article! --Moni3 (talk) 23:39, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

At FAC I often check 1c/2c. At FAC we demand consistency and correctness. You appear to have a good spread of resouces of all kinds.

Your Bibliography lacks locations for rather obscure presses. Supplying locations for presses helps Reliable Source and Highest Quality Reliable Source verification occur faster, or, people actually to buy the referenced works.

"p." is not the usual shortened plural of pages. "pp." is. Consider when making reference in your short citations to multiple pages that you use "pp."

"(Summer 1990)" is not a date reference, its a journal issue name. The year is "1990" the issue is "Summer", ie volume 72 issue (3 - Summer).

Your bibliography cites multiple authors as so "Brown, Tony; Kutner, Jon; Warwick, Neil" your short cites as "Noll and Blumhofer" but Brown and others is cited as "Brown" !!! consistency please.

Your short cites of Noll and Blumhofer (eds) is inexcusable. If its an edited collection then there are works in the edited collection not by the editors. Specify the chapter title in the short cites and the chapter authors. if its the introduction, then the chapter title is "Introduction" unless its a titled introduction, and the authors should be specified separately to the editors and the book contained in. Additionally, please check if any of the other anthologies or collections cite the introduction, or a subchapter, not by the author / editor of the whole work. Fifelfoo (talk) 11:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Yay, a serious song coming towards FAC! I am a citation pedant. Fifelfoo (talk) 11:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Awadewit (talk · contribs)

When I was done reading this article, I felt that I had learned about a lot of topics related to "Amazing Grace", but I had to go back and check to see what I had learned about "Amazing Grace" itself. I feel like the hymn itself is a bit lost in the historical context. Now, I am all for context - you know that - but I feel that this article is so weighed down with explanations about the author, musical styles, and religious history and, at times, the hymn itself is lost. Here are my suggestions for how to bring the hymn into higher relief in the article:

• This article is 42kB, which is already on the long side. I think that it should be reduced in size. Remember that the average reader is going to get bogged down in such a long article. User:Qp10qp and I managed to write a biography of Mary Shelley and an analysis of her works in 53 kB, so I know you can cut this down!

• I think the section on Newton is much too long - I would suggest cutting it down to about two or three paragraphs, focusing on his conversion (I noted that the section is even titled "John Newton's conversion"). It is apparently his conversion that is important for his view of grace, for example. I don't think you need to discuss his early life, relationship with Polly, Shaftesbury, etc. None of that returns later in the article, like his conversion does. I noticed in your response to Finn Froding on the talk page that one reason for including this material was that the sources mentioned it, but, of course, those are different genres. Chapters in books are much longer and have a different scope than encyclopedia entries. Sometimes we have to choose to exclude information because it is not within the scope of an encyclopedia article - and this is a matter of judgment.

• I'm not entirely convinced that the history of the Second Great Awakening is necessary, particularly since the religious history behind the great hymn-writing of the late eighteenth century is not included in this article. There is a reason that there were a lot of hymns being written at the end of the 18th century, that Charles Wesley was writing many of them, and that the Countess of Huntingdon reprinted a hymnal - Methodism was being born. :) Anyway, since none of that is mentioned, I'm not sure we need a whole paragraph of history regarding the Great Awakening - a couple of sentences should do.

• The section on "Shape note singing" is interesting, but seems a bit of a tangent. I would reduce this and integrate it somewhere else.

• The "African American spiritual music" section is fascinating, but too detailed for this article. I would suggest cutting many of the details from the last paragraph, for example.

• The section on "Popular use" focuses too much on Star Trek.

• The last three paragraphs of "Modern interpretations" seem unnecessary - none of these explanations really explain why the song is iconic.

• Two factual inaccuracies that I noticed:

• They also began writing lessons for children, long before the concept of Sunday School. - This isn't true. Your source may say it, but I can find you a whole bunch on the history of the Sunday School, if you would like. :) (Just thought such a blatant falsehood shouldn't be in the article.)

• Several prolific hymn writers were at their most productive at this time, including Isaac Watts—whose hymns Newton had grown up hearing[33]—and Charles Wesley, with whom Newton was familiar - Watts was not as his most productive during this time - he was dead. That's why Newton grew up hearing his hymns.

• Many of the religious concepts, such as faith, sin, grace, Jesus, and salvation, are not linked in the article. Don't assume people know what these mean within a Protestant context!

I hope this helpful! Awadewit (talk) 17:57, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I'm going to take this on a little bit slower than what it took me to write the article, for personal reasons.

• Amount of article dedicated to Newton: There are several issues related to the decision to include a basic biography of Newton. The first is weight. It's not that the sources merely "mention" Newton's life, they dedicate a significant amount of space and weight to it. The most comprehensive source is Steve Turner's book. Of 223 pages of prose, 108 address Newton's life. Turner writes in the introduction "I felt that there could be no real understanding of 'Amazing Grace' without an understanding of Newton's life..." Joan Baez, Arlo Guthrie, and Judy Collins have stated that they are drawn to performing the song and a significant source of its transformative power comes from the story of Newton's life. The U.S. Library of Congress page dedicated to the creation of the hymn is about Newton's life (Turner is the major source for this). A source I used primarily for modern theological interpretations of the hymn, Finding God in the Story of Amazing Grace is delivered through an intimate telling of Newton's life. A third of Amazing Grace: Our Spiritual National Anthem, while light reading appropriate for a coffee table sort of purpose--but nonetheless having a valid view on its modern and popular interpretations--is dedicated to Newton's life. Half the entry in The Book of Hymns is about Newton. The first two pages of a 13-page chapter in Sing Them Over Again to Me is about Newton. These are only the sources I have found and there are more that seem to be available though they may take a little work to find.
• The second issue is how the sources interpret the lyrics. Turner, Newton biographer Jonathan Aitken, and Finding God in the Story of Amazing Grace frame the interpretation of the lyrics of "Amazing Grace" in the context of Newton's life. "The hour I first believed", the "many dangers, toils, and snares", "lost/found and blind/see" and specifically and repeatedly "wretch" and "grace" are discussed using Newton's life experiences. His frequent brushes with death, his love for (and some sources argue, being saved by) Polly, the nadir of his negative experiences as a slave in Sierra Leone, and his experiences slave trading are significant parts of the interpretation of the lyrics and misinterpretation as well. The third issue is the legends that surround the song. See Snopes' article on the conflicting stories. Bruce Hindmarsh writes that the way his life is portrayed in hymnals that "it is made to appear as though Newton was wiping the brine from his forehead as he wrote the hymn..."
• I tried to find an FA on a poem or song that rivaled the construction and impact of this one, but none really fit that bill. This is an autobiographical poem that is also a sermon. It is admittedly one of many Newton included in Olney Hymns that address grace and conversion, but something in the spiritual crises of American history propelled this poem and the musical accompaniment to a phenomenon. For these reasons, I do not agree that Newton's life should be cut. Turner, and another go into quite a bit of detail about Newton's life after he left Olney and his work with Wilberforce. However, I think this can be made stronger with a few options: a helpful editor took the first sentence of the article--the one about the Dictionary of American Hymnology--and put it into its own section but has not returned. I can turn that one sentence into a paragraph with some of the information I included here. The weakest part of the article, in my opinion, is the Modern interpretations section, and I think that could be streamlined and made stronger as well, with ties directly to specific parts of Newton's life. As the popularity of the song has grown, the article now states that it has been used for a variety of purposes and its lyrics changed to conform to a new collective idea of what the self is and how it relates to a more humanistic approach to what grace and redemption means.
• I'm finding it difficult, so I'm asking for some advice here, in how to address the ubiquitous nature of the song as an illustrative tool for various folk music styles. The last paragraph of the African American section does not address the song directly, but I think I need to connect it to how it was recorded later. Aretha Franklin's version of the song was long meter illustrated: it lasts more than 10 minutes as opposed to the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards' version, which is just under 3 minutes. Mentions of African American spirituals and shape note singing are irrevocably linked with "Amazing Grace" and for some reason, I'm not expressing these connections adequately.
• FWIW in relation to Isaac Watts, I meant time=era of hymn writing not year or lifetime. I'll clarify that.
• Otherwise, I'll take a look at what I think I can fix and improve. --Moni3 (talk) 16:45, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi Moni, I'm leaving some hurriedly written comments on the lead. I've spent all of ten minutes, so they are not profound. Keep the bucketfull of salt nearby. I'll keep adding stuff as and when I find time. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I'll do a sentence by sentence read of the lead (because that is important), and then offer more general comments on the remaining sections. If you have an questions, please ask; otherwise, you don't need to either thank me for adopting a suggestion or explain yourself for rejecting it. :) In fact, I already disagree with some of my own points of last night; so, be advised that this review may rock back and forth a little before it settles down. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Fowler and Fowler comments

Lead;

1. (Sentence) "Amazing Grace" is a Christian hymn written by Anglican clergyman and poet John Newton (1725–1807) and published in 1779."
   1. Should Anglican be linked to the Anglicanism? Might help the reader.
2. (Sentence) "With a message that forgiveness and redemption is possible regardless of the sins people commit and that the soul can be delivered from despair through the mercy of God, "Amazing Grace" is one of the most recognized songs in the English-speaking world."
   1. With a message that forgiveness ...
      1. "With" is a filler word. Something about it is off. Would "Proclaiming a/the message that forgiveness is ..." work? You are the best judge. (I like the overall sentence though.)
3. (Sentence) "He grew up without any particular religious conviction but had several near-death experiences, and his life's path was formed by a variety of twists and coincidences that were often put into motion by his recalcitrant insubordination."
   1. He grew up without any particular religious conviction but had several near-death experiences,
      1. Why the "but?" i.e. why is a near death experience in opposition to lack of religion in childhood. I think I know what you are trying to say, but it needs to be clarified. Something like: He grew up ... conviction, but several near-death experiences in childhood/youth led him to precociously ponder ... (Provided this can be sourced!)
   2. and his life's path
      1. This really should be a new sentence. Not much connection with the previous one.
   3. was formed by a variety of twists and coincidences
      1. There is a mixing of registers here (formal, informal, and formal) in "variety of twists and coincidences." Probably better to stick with one. Eg. "was formed by the twists and turns that", or simply "formed by the contingencies that"
   4. "recalcitrant insubordination"
      1. Insubordination usually is recalcitrant. There is a coherence issue too: insubordination usually requires a boss, and, we as new readers, have little information as yet.
   5. So, all in all, would the following work? "He grew up without any particular religious conviction but several near-death experiences in youth led him to precociously ponder the meaning of life; (in addition,) his life's path was formed by contingencies set into motion by his rebellious nature."
4. (Sentence) "One night a terrible storm battered his vessel so severely that he became frightened enough to call out to God for mercy, a moment that marked the beginning of his spiritual conversion."
   1. One night a terrible storm battered his vessel so severely that he became frightened enough to call out to God for mercy, ... (some repetition here)
      1. Would this be better: One night a storm battered his vessel so severely that he called out to God in fright and begged for mercy, ...
   2. "a moment that marked the beginning of his spiritual conversion"
      1. conversion is a beginning of sorts; perhaps "beginning of his spiritual life" would be better, unless the conversion itself was a lengthy one. Alternatively, if it was a really short one, as they sometimes are, how about "a moment that marked his spiritual conversion?"
5. "His career in slave trading lasted a few years more until he quit going to sea altogether and began to study theology."
   1. This seems to imply that the slave trading career would have continued had he not stopped going to sea.
   2. Also, why "altogether?"
   3. How about, "His career in slave trading ended a few years later when he quit going to sea and began to study theology.
6. "If there was any music accompanying the verses, it is unknown, and it may have been chanted by the congregation without music."
   1. First "it" is the music; second "it," the hymn.
   2. Better (in my view) to say: If there was any music accompanying the verses, it has not survived; indeed the hymn may have been chanted by the congregation without music (Indeed here==there is evidence that)
   3. Also, were the hymns chanted or were they sung a cappella?
7. "It debuted in print in 1779 in Newton and Cowper's Olney Hymns, but settled into relative obscurity in England."
   1. but settled into relative obscurity in England
      1. but fell into relative obscurity ...
8. (Sentence) "In the United States, however, "Amazing Grace" was used extensively during the Second Great Awakening in the early 19th century."
   1. "was used extensively during" ("used" is a little off.)
      1. Would "was adopted extensively" or "embraced widely" work? (Or even "sung widely.")
9. (Sentence) "It has been associated with more than 20 melodies, but in 1835 it was joined to a tune named "New Britain" to which it is most frequently sung today."
   1. "was joined to a tune"
      1. Is "join" a musical term? If not, I wonder if "it was paired with" might work better?
10. (Sentence) "It has had particular influence in folk music, and become an emblematic African American spiritual."
    1. "has had particular influence"
       1. By "particular," do you mean "especial" or "a specific?"
11. (Sentence) ""Amazing Grace" saw a resurgence in popularity in the U.S. during the 1960s and has been recorded numerous times during and since the 20th century, sometimes appearing on popular music charts."
    1. "and has been recorded numerous times during and since the 20th century."
       1. Either "and was recorded numerous times during and since the 20th century" or "and has been recorded numerous times since the early 20th century." (I'm assuming that recordings began in that century's first decade.)
    2. "sometimes appearing on popular music charts."
       1. I guess I would emphasize it: "sometimes even appearing on ..."

More later. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I know that such detailed analysis can sometime be off-putting, but it is offered with the best of intentions. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:23, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

They're going to want ALT text at FAC, so you should add it now to save time then. Mm40 (talk) 13:59, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Elcobbola (talk · contribs)

I'll focus on the "John Newton's conversion" section, as I found it difficult to read and was often left wondering what the subject of this article actually was. The article, however, gets more focused as it goes on. I appear to have gotten the same impression as Awadewit: there seems to be too much unnecessary information which bulks up the section and distorts focus (I'll try to point out examples below - I'm not touching on everything that seems superfluous). I agree that understanding Newton's life is necessary and relevant to the understanding of Amazing Gracing, but there the extra detail is not germane to Amazing Grace (the sources, of course, are not encyclopedias and do not have WP:SS) and I think it negatively impacts the readability.

Early life

• It would be helpful to put "Wapping" and "London" in closer proximity to one another (e.g. Wapping, London). I've not been to the UK since the mid-90s, so, if I ever even knew this, the break in comprehension prevented the sentence from reading as smoothly as it could.
• Is it necessary to know that Wapping has a connection to sailors/seafaring? Newton's experiences with seafaring are presumably what influence him; why such detail about the incidental location of his birth?
• "She had intended Newton to become a clergyman, but she died of tuberculosis when Newton was six years old" - seems odd to put these two thoughts in the same sentence. Her death didn't change what her intentions had been (but).
• Why aren't date clauses ("In 1725 Newton was...", "In 1742 Newton's...", etc.) set off by commas in this section, while they are in other sections (e.g. "At some point in 1744, after...", "In March 1748, while...")?
• The first sentence of the second paragraph is very good; it would be nice if other paragraphs in this section had that kind of introduction to pull them information together and keep it in focus.
• "as was the custom for adolescent males to begin an apprenticeship in a career" - does this matter? Isn't all that's relevant to the understanding of his background that he served on the ship? Why does the reader need to know the extent to which the reason he got there was common?

Press-ganged

• Why is information about his starting (lack of) and ending rank necessary?
• I thought the meaning of press-gang was common knowledge? It seems to be over-explained ("being forced to join", "had license to take any able-bodied man", "several sailors found him and forced him into the Navy").
• "By remarkable coincidence" - remarkable is editorializing and NPOV/OR (Remarkable to whom? To Moni?)
• Does it matter why he deserted? To understand Newton as germane to Amazing Grace, isn't only the consequence thereof important?
• Does it matter that his captain was happy to be rid of him?

Slave trader

• Does it matter (again, in terms of background to understand Amazing Grace) that the journals are first primary source of the Atlantic slave trade from the perspective of a merchant?
• Why is there such detail about the condition of the slaves? Wouldn't something like "Slaves were bound in iron chains and packed as tightly as possible; Newton alluded to sexual misbehavior with women slaves, interpreted..." be sufficient? Why does it matter that the slaves were "exhausted from their ordeals"?
• Doesn't "openly mock[ly] the captain" imply his "obedience to authority [was] still absent"?
• Does it matter what cargo the Greyhound was carrying?

I think the article would be much stronger if this section identified the key themes in Newton's early life (disobedience, trying circumstances, devotion to Polly, progression of thoughts on faith/religion/etc) and provided succinct description of the related events. Эlcobbola _talk 16:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)