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André Messager

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Previous peer review
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Eight years ago, I am nonplussed to see (eheu fugaces!), I took Messager to peer review and thence to GA and there he has remained. Looking at the article again I think it may possibly have the potential for FA, and I am inviting comments with that in view. As ever, comments on prose, pictures, sourcing, balance, areas for improvement, and anything else will be gratefully received. Tim riley talk 19:53, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll look in on this as soon as I can. First thing: There are so many images that they pinch the text between them. Do we really need the one of his childhood home? Or do you want to see which ones the FA reviewers kill and then redistribute the remaining ones? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:46, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

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Here's my first batch, remainder to follow as soon as I can. Scraping the barrel bottom to come up with these.

  • I'm not a big fan of one-sentence paragraphs in the lede. It doesn't seem to be justified here.
  • The date of his birth is unsourced.
  • Indeed. This has puzzled me for ages. A ref for d.o.bs falls down the hole between the lead and the text: we don't put refs in the lead if they can be avoided, but we don't seem to put d.o.bs (with ref) in the main text. If either I'd prefer to do the latter: what think you? Tim riley talk 19:46, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1878, Fauré and Messager travelled to Cologne to see Wagner's Das Rheingold and Die Walküre, and later to Munich for the complete Ring cycle, Die Meistersinger and Tannhäuser and to Bayreuth for Die Meistersinger and Parsifal.[7]" I did not think Parsifal premiered until 1882, which I suppose is later, but perhaps the timeframe should be more clearly stated.
  • "Le Bourgeois de Calais" leaving aside what is within quotation marks, you are inconsistent on capitalisation of this work.
  • " including Nellie Melba and Enrico Caruso.[5][2]" refs in wrong order.
  • "In his late operettas," should this be "later"?
  • There is an unofficial convention that in Life and Works articles (which are sort of two different articles in one) it is helpful and OK to allow one extra dup link at first mention of key terms in the Works section. I've got away with this for years, and when it's come up at FAC it has been nodded through. Tim riley talk 19:39, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It baffles me why the convention for tables is to link every mention of another article in a table, but it certainly seems so, and I have linked Albert Carré et al thus. I am going to link the titles today. Tim riley talk 07:14, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you v. much for these comments: all very much to the point. Looking forward to more when you are ready, but no hurry, of course. Tim riley talk 19:46, 18 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not much more.
  • In the 1890s section: can anything be said as to why the sources deem La Basoche so important? We are told that they do (at some length) but the reasons seem absent.
  • "The piece became and has remained the composer's most performed musical theatre piece." Piece/piece
Well crafted like the works of its subject, I'm sure it will do quite well when public performances begin at FAC.--08:44, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Wehwalt. A box at the first night of the FAC will be at your disposal (unless Messager is conducting Walküre in which case you'll be busy onstage). Tim riley talk 18:51, 22 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Brianboulton

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I see I contributed to the earlier peer review, eight years ago – in fact, I was pretty much the only reviewer. The article then had about 3,600 words; it now touches 6,000, so is a different proposition altogether – something that those nameless idiots who argue that FAC is just "chrome polishing" of GAs ought perhaps to consider. It will be like reading an entirely fresh article, and I will do with pleasure, but I'll wait for Wehwalt to complete his review – two concurrent active reviews can be messy. Brianboulton (talk) 15:43, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I shall await with keen anticipation. Tim riley talk 18:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Brianboulton: the floor is yours, Monsieur, at such time as you are free and inclined. No hurry at all. Tim riley talk 17:37, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just a few comments
  • The two sentences recording the illness and demise of Edith should perhaps not be tacked on to a paragraph recording the theatrical fortunes of La Basoche.
  • "According to the Oxford Companion, Messager and Hope Temple separated (doesn't say when). Worth a mention?
    • It would be, but I cannot find any source that says when. Another source says that the marriage did not last long, but gives no timescale or details. It may or may not be significant that in his Who's Who entry Messager edits Edith out altogether, but mentions Hope as his wife. If I can find a definite date I'll add it. Tim riley talk 07:54, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You refer both to "the Ring cycle" (wikilinked) and Der Ring des Nibelungen (unlinked). Some may not know that these refer to the same work.
  • Saying "being too old for active service" in the First World War seems a little unnecessary for someone born in 1853!
  • " At the Opéra, he was the conductor for Tristan und Isolde on the 100th anniversary of Wagner's birth". Either this sentence is chronologically misplaced, or they were a little late with the celebrations – Wagner was born in 1813.
  • The year of Fauré's death is not clear.
  • You mention his "Ah que ne parliez-vous?" without saying what this was. Song? Aria?
  • Les p'tites Michu is linked several times. Also, what is a "Michu"?
  • Is "tres classique" missing an accent?
  • I wonder about the need or purpose of Notes 18 and 19, written in French. They won't mean much to most readers.
    • Where I have quoted someone else's published translation I have not quoted the original French, but where, as here, I have translated it myself I think I need to have the original in the notes so that any Francophones can satisfy themselves that I have translated faithfully. I have asked two native French speakers to have a look at the article, and if they do, and issue the all-clear, I may delete the two French notes. Tim riley talk 07:54, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Later: cf in the 1890s stage works section: "Février in his André Messager: Mon Maître, Mon Ami calls it "the last of the great nineteenth-century French comic operas" ("le dernier des grands opéras-comique français du XIX siècle")" – a Riley translation that may be queried: should I have translated "opéra comique" as "comic opera" or left it in French? Tim riley talk 08:27, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Later again: both French quotes now removed from notes, the article having now had the benefit of a review by an expert French-speaker. Tim riley talk 16:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I can drag up. Congratulations on putting together the most comprehensive account of Messager's life that I can recall - many works ignore him altogether. (I thought he might be remembered for that moustache alone.) Brianboulton (talk) 21:57, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm greatly obliged for these points: all dealt with as detailed above. Thank you very much, BB. (It is a good moustache, isn't it? I have no evidence that Messager and Fauré engaged in friendly competition, but either of them would have beaten Sir E. Elgar, and left Sir A. Boult trailing.) Tim riley talk 07:54, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
...but would lose in the play-offs to Professor J. Edwards MA. Brianboulton (talk) 09:36, 27 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ssilvers

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  • I have given the article a copyedit/proofreading and made various minor changes. I see no structural problems, except for the crowding of images that I mentioned above. It seems to be quite comprehensive, now, and written with Tim's usual flair. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:47, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Good. Thank you for recent (and past) input on this article, Ss. Tim riley talk 18:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • New thought: Under the songs list at the bottom, date ranges are given. Some say 1890-1922, but you changed the text to indicate that all were finished by 1911. Would you please reconcile? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:43, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Those are the Sylvestre settings. I have no better dates for non-Sylvestre songs, taken from Wagstaff and Lamb in Grove, but I'll double check in Wagstaff's book when I'm next at the BL. Tim riley talk 20:02, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And now done. Dates for each song now added. Tim riley talk 18:08, 26 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You link opérette to operetta, rather than the genre opérette. If you mean "operetta" in the broader sense, would it be better to use the English word? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • One can become seriously unhinged grappling with the terminology used by English writers about French light operatic works. Some anglicise, some don't. But I think linking to "opérette" is a good idea, and will adopt it. Thank you. Tim riley talk 09:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • You should review each instance of "operetta" and "comic opera" in the article. Often, they seem to be used interchangeably with "operas comique" and "opérette". See if you are satisfied that the article uses the term that you mean to use in each case. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:21, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done. The problem of course is that all opérettes are operettas but not all operettas are opérettes. I have left Monsieur Beaucaire as an operetta and made all the other lighter Messager pieces opérettes. (And that's before we get into the arcane mysteries of where opérette ends and opéra-comique begins.) Tim riley talk 06:45, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you specify the year of the stock market crash that ruined his family? -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:12, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think it was a crash: I have amended my phrasing after the comment from Cg2p0B0u8m, below. The source leads one to think it was disastrous stock market speculation ("des spéculations boursières désastreuses") by Messager senior rather than a national calamity. The year is not given in the sources I have to hand. I think it is in Duteurtre, which I can order again at the BL if wanted. There was a Bourse crash, but not till 1882. Given the sequence of events – Messager started at the Niedermeyer school in 1871 – the family's fortunes may have gone phut in 1869 or thereabouts when Messager was about 15. (Otherwise they could have enrolled him with Niedermeyer earlier: Fauré joined aged nine.) Tim riley talk 09:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SC

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I struggled to find much to complain about with this one, and had to read through several times in order to scrape up the following rather trivial nit-picking:

  • "earning a living as a church organist became very acceptable." The "very acceptable" feels a bit forced to me, but I won't push the point if you're happy with it
  • You're a bit inconsistent with commas after dates, so in para 3, by way of example, "In 1874 Messager" is followed by "In 1876, he won": I think removing would be a better idea than adding
  • "the Eden Théâtre, a new 3,000 capacity theatre": So the Eden Théâtre is a theatre?
  • Should it be "Madrigal", rather than "Madrigal"? (I'm unsure on practice, but I wouldn't normally think about linking the punctuation – and I see "Danny Boy" lower down).
  • "fire hazard by the police authorities": "by the police" or "by the authorities" would be fine
  • 'with "a boring historical plot, bad lyrics, and a banal score"[31]' – says who?
  • You have US and U.S.
  • FN20 should start with a capital C

Nicely put together. Even though I have not heard of M Messager before, I have a decent enough picture of him from this piece. Please let me know if/when/should you go to FAC. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 13:20, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

All dealt with except the first point. I'm trying to emphasise that though the family were against a musical career when they were well off, they changed their tune after the financial crash, and a steady income for young André as a respectable church organist suddenly seemed a good idea. I'll happily consider suggestions for improving the phrasing of this point. Many thanks, SchroCat. Your eagle eye is much appreciated. Tim riley talk 12:09, 25 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I'm leaving the review open as there is the prospect of further input from an editor whose views on this topic I'd much like to have. Tim riley talk 16:22, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

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  • Lead, 2nd para - It sounds a bit obvious to say "studied composition with teachers"
  • Early years - In the quote the word "such" sticks out, I assume because in the full translation he has already referred to the form in which the opposition took.
    • That's Wagstaff's translation. What Messager said was, "J'appris, très jeune, le piano. Mais, plus tard, mon désire de devenir compositeur se heurta à bien des oppositions de la part de mon père." I suppose Wagstaff is using "such" in an emphatic rather than a comparative way, as in "Such awful weather today!" But please tweak if you wish. Tim riley talk 13:43, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early years, 2 para - "bank crash" - is this correct ? page 25 of Duteurtre states "des spéculations boursières désastreuses ruinent la famille Messager" which to my ignorance sounds like stocks and shares
  • Early years 3rd para - there is a very short article on the Société des auteurs, compositeurs et éditeurs de musique.... for linking
  • First successes - It would be nice to be clear about the sort of place the Éden-Théâtre was; I have a feeling it was more like the Winter Gardens with an orchestra playing than a real theatre (a sort of musical 19th century Eden project), but very difficult to find references to it.
    • Interesting. I'll have a rummage and see if I can find anything more. Tim riley talk 13:43, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I should say it was more like a music hall or palace of varieties. Various acts appeared there, and though an actor as grand as Coquelin the elder appeared there, I haven't yet run across any reports in the archives of The Era ("from our Brussels correspondent") of any full-length plays being presented there. A transcription of The Era's report on the opening is here if wanted. I don't think I want to add anything about it in the Messager article, though. Tim riley talk 13:45, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • First success 3rd para, end - do you need the word 'published' before vocal score?
  • first success 6th and last para - The title of Le Mari de la reine is translated, but others are not - what is the plan for this article?
    • I have been reluctant to clutter up the text with translations of titles that readers won't need, and have put in Anglicised titles only where I thought they'd be helpful. But now I look at it (what, for instance, is a fauvette?) I haven't been very consistent. I think I'll blitz all translations of titles from the text and perhaps (comments welcome on this) add an English title to all the operas etc in the table in the Works section. Tim riley talk 13:43, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • that seems a good idea - put them in the table and keep the flowing text cleaner.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • Cg2p0B0u8m Well! I've given it my best shot, but a properly idiomatic translation eludes me in some cases. I hope you will be able to find time to tweak those you think need tweaking. I haven't even attempted François les bas-bleus, which literally translated makes no sense in English, as far as I can see. And I am particularly uneasy about my attempts at Les premières armes de Louis XV and La petite fonctionnaire, but please change any you think can be better translated. Tim riley talk 10:11, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          • I added "The Guild" for La Basoche. Would "The Little Official" be better as "The Little Bureaucrat"? Also, should the English titles be in italics? Also, might "François les bas-bleus be translated as something like "Francis of the purple prose"? -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:42, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
            • I am still looking at these, but La fiancée en loterie - should it be The raffled bride? I am still pondering Les premières armes de Louis XV Yes, it has struck me I think 'The First Conquest of Louis XV' might do - the story involves Louis XV, out hunting, climbing over the walls of the Chevreuse Abbey in order to get to know Antoinette, a young noblewoman, and inviting her for crumpets at Versailles the next day and so on. (This synopsis is from the 1888 edition of the Les Annales du Théâtre et de la Musique) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:16, 7 April 2018 (UTC) (although I suspect the % of Messager is no more than Sacha - the original title would have been Doughnuts in Court, I think), and La petite fonctionnaire (bureaucrat is too grand for a post-mistress). Bas-bleus is very tricky to translate - purple prose is quite good. All the others seem fine. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:47, 6 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
              • How about, for La petite fonctionnaire: "The Civil Servant"? -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:42, 6 April 2018 (UTC) Still pondering.... Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:16, 7 April 2018 (UTC) Actually, it's 'petite' which I think is more of a problem, and I think is permissible to translate as 'young' - The young official - although in English there is no way to indicate, as in French, that the official is feminine. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
                • Ah! Following Edwardes' London system of naming musicals ("The Circus Girl", "The Country Girl", "The Girl on the Train", "The Girl from Keyes", etc., how about "The Girl in Uniform"? ... Er, what's the germ of the plot? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:50, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Well, I'd prefer "The Office Girl"; the uniform isn't really there, but I think with Office (fonctionnaire) and Girl (petite) it's pretty close. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:57, 7 April 2018 (UTC) I made a stab at a synopsis on the article ages ago, which should be quite accurate. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:59, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fin de siècle 3rd para - I think it wise to consult a Puccini expert (Budden?) for the source of his opera, I don't think it really correct to say "the first operatic setting of the story by Pierre Loti later set by Puccini"
    • It's a bit like the Old Testament: so-and-so begat thingummy who begat whatshisname: Loti's plot reached Puccini filtered through John Luther Long and David Belasco. I've tweaked the prose to reflect this. Tim riley talk 07:32, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fin de siècle 6th para - "In 1898 Messager's only child": The preface to Février's book opens with these words "Depuis bientôt vingt ans que mon père n'est plus....", and is by Jean Messager... (who also wrote this http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb39645360c)
Done.
  • Fin de siècle 7th para - I think once before I asked for a little more about Pelléas et Mélisande. It really is a significant achievement of Messager, and there's plenty in Gillian Opstad's book on the early Mélisandes (a nice anecdote on p99), as well as in the Cambridge Opera Guide. Although he had to dash off after 2/3 performances (Debussy not being impressed with his replacement), Messager did conduct it again at the Opéra-Comique after the First World War. ++In the Holoman book on the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra (p330) he states "his championing of Pelléas et Mélisande alone would have earned him his place in music history."Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:15, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And now done. Thank you for the pointers, too. Tim riley talk 12:02, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Twentieth century 2nd para - Ravel's L'heure espagnole was not seen at the Opéra until 1921 (and then I think it was Gaubert, not Messager, although he could have conducted some performances) so I think this may not belong here.
    • Wagstaff (p. 24) is unequivocal about this:
"The emphasis as far as repertoire was concerned was on Wagner, whose works the Opéra now happily embraced, after stiff opposition in the previous century. Fauré's Pénélope was also performed there in 1913, and other highlights included Rameau's Hippolyte et Aricie (1908), Ravel's L'heure espagnole and Moussorgsky's Boris Godunov."
He cites Fevrier as the source. I can order Fevrier at the British Library to check if necessary. Tim riley talk 13:43, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Twentieth century last para - I see the Tristan phrase is now cut; according to the Annales, he definitely conducted Mastersingers, Siegfried and Twilight of Gods in 1913 at the Opéra. It is not clear if the three T&I were him.
  • Music - Photo of group of blokes - why not also point out Gustave Lefèvre and Eugène Gigout?
Gigout now mentioned in the caption; I have left poor old Lefèvre out in the cold. Tim riley talk 10:25, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • early stage works 2nd para - I would change the sentence to read: John Lanchbery revised this for Frederick Ashton's version of the ballet, with...
  • 1890s stage works 2nd para - same comment as before about Puccini.
  • Non-stage works and role in French music - Somewhere in here you could quote Debussy, maybe page 112 from Février which is in a chpater all about the friendship of Debussy and Messager. In one he says 'vous avez su éveiller la vie sonore de Pelléas avec une délicatesse tendre.' and in a later letter regrets missing the premiere of a new production of Véronique in London in 1903.
  • Recordings - I think if you include Netrebko you have to mention Persson, Jo, Hendricks and Yoncheva; so maybe best to just leave in the three other women who have at least shown interest in that period / genre. Petibon might be another possibility.
  • Recording - In the last sentence "in 1993 Decca recorded the complete score, in Lanchbery's revised orchestration, with the Orchestra of Welsh National Opera conducted by Richard Bonynge" is wrong - the 1983 Bournemouth recording is the Lanchberry version and I think Bonynyge is close(r) to the original.
  • List of works - Of the twelve tableaux of La montagne enchantée Messager only composed the 3rd and 4th tableaux (of 12) and three other numbers - the rest is all Leroux (see Duteurtre). Le chevalier aux fleurs is 'with Pugno'. Sacha, unfinished is missing. If you are giving poets in full Jean Richepin could have his, Burani and Delair are linkable. Is it too much to assume that the author of Prométhée enchaîné was the same as the translater of Nouveau printemps?
I omitted to reply about the unfinished Sacha. I am not enthusiastic about mentioning it. I suppose one could add in the Life section that he left it incomplete, but I don't know that this information is really very informative. Happy to reconsider if you demur. Tim riley talk 20:35, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Note 11 - In fact these could be anyone's touches... L'Africaine which would have been extremly well-known at the time has an act on a ship and Les Troyens has a song for a home-sick sailor - I don't think Wagner had a patent on these ideas.
  • Note 16 - and, more racily, by Offenbach: L'île de Tulipatan

Mon général, thank you so much for these extremely thorough and precise comments. I am most grateful and shall enjoy working through them over the next few days. Tim riley talk 21:20, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Twentieth century - third para - The paragraph on the OSCC is fine, however there is additional information in the Holoman book on the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra (p331) which would be good to incorporate to illustrate his vision: "Messager's chief legacy to the Société des Concerts lies in his unswerving determination to draw his orchestra out of its isolation in a fading [Paris] neighbourhood and into the international spotlight." Page 332 gives more detail on the tours which resulted. (On p342-4 you may be interested in a bit of a to-do with Fauré over finding a new home for the OSCC.)Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:25, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re Wagner, Augé-Laribé on p55 makes an interesting point; in listing all the companions on Messager's trips to Bayreuth (1886 to see Parsifal and Tristan, 1888 for Parsifal and Mastersingers, 1896 for the Ring), that on these visits "Le futur chef wagnérien recevait la tradition" - so maybe he wasn't conducting them so much in a 'French style'?

PS, If it's of any interest, the final movement of Les Vins de France is entitled Scène de l'ivresse (!)Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:39, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

After this marathon I find the prospect of participating in such a scene decidedly tempting! Tim riley talk 15:57, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have no more to add, but this ; as the second child is mentioned, should we not mention the first? Holoman sets out that Jean is the child of the first marriage, and Madeleine of the second (p330, so you already have the reference). For Sacha - the invaluable site L'encyclopédie multimedia de la comédie musicale théâtrale en France (1918-1944) (http://194.254.96.55/cm/?for=fic&cleoeuvre=310) says that Messager completed about a quarter of the piece before Berthomieu took over. I am happy for you to decide on inclusion. Thanks for your interesting report from the Eden Theatre – yes, so he wasn't exactly principal conductor of the Vienna State Opera. I bet Boulez never had to conduct a band accompanying Madame Quetta and her global running feats. I will look through the translations of work titles tomorrow. Congratulations on this excellent work.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:06, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much indeed for your wonderfully thorough and expert comments. The article is vastly the better for them. Tim riley talk 07:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Closing review

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After an outstandingly thorough and helpful peer review this article is now, we think, ready for FAC and will shortly be appearing there. Warmest thanks to everyone who contributed above, and we hope we may see you again on the FAC page. Tim riley talk 07:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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