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Archie MacLaren

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I am aiming to take it to FAC. MacLaren was an interesting and rather stormy former England cricket captain. As usual, I'm looking for accessibility to non-cricketers, padding and over detailing (as usual, I'm worried about the length), and general prose issues. All comments appreciated.

Thanks, Sarastro1 (talk) 21:00, 12 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Crisco 1492

  • Opinions were divided over his captaincy, but he was a deep thinker on the game and critics believed him to be tactically advanced. However, his pessimism, clashes with the selectors and inability to get the best out of his players led most commentators to rate him a poor leader. - but... however.
  • regular first-class cricket - meaning not clear
  • It would work just as well to say "ceased to play first-class cricket regularly", but to me it sounds better as it is. It this an Engvar thing? I'll change it if it's a big issue, but would prefer to leave it. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:51, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • MacLaren was born - the second son born... - repetition
  • financial difficulties prevented any other family members attending the school. - how could they afford paying the bowlers then?
  • I think this is relative. The family were not exactly impoverished, I don't think, if they could send three sons to Harrow. Also, professional bowlers were paid a pittance, and had some responsibility to bowl at club members in the nets. I suspect that they would not have been paid a lot, or for long, and that this was well within the means of MacLaren senior. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:51, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • his promotion to the school first eleven. - School or school's?
  • But wet weather - At the beginning of a sentence?
  • in the school first team in 1888 and 1889 before a knee injury forced him out of the team in 1890. - team/team
  • Was it odd that MacLaren was an amateur but not of a rich family or noble background?
  • Not really. Noble families tended to be few and far between at this stage, and while many amateurs before WW1 were independently wealthy and could afford to play cricket, many of them struggled to make ends meet while playing cricket, and several dropped out from time to time to work. And relatively poor amateurs weren't uncommon. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:51, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • That article isn't the finest, so take it with a pinch of salt, especially for this period. I could name plenty of amateurs in similar positions, including C. B. Fry, the captain of England in 1912, and Ranjitsinhji an Indian "Prince" (albeit a fake, broke and largely fraudulent one). Sarastro1 (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • But MacLaren's financial constraints - again
  • During the winter of 1892–93, MacLaren studied cotton manufacture in New Orleans; - this seems to come out of left field
  • It does in the source too, where there is no explanation. Speculating, maybe his father wanted him to go into his business. But I can add nothing more here that is sourced. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:51, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • in a region or group (such as professional cricketers) - so amateurs can't be in a representative match ?
  • lots of use of the word "prestigious"
  • before dropping out of the side. - possibly unclear to non-cricket fans
  • But his successful leadership - ...
  • although MacLaren was caught from first ball of the match, to become the first person dismissed by the first ball of a Test. - repetition of first. Also, first person ever?
  • If you don't mind "but" at the beginning of a sentence, alright. However, I'm concerned that there are more than a few such uses (I see two already in #Test debut)
  • £100 advance - Value in today's pounds?
  • He impressed more in the lesser matches, - impressed whom? or do you mean he performed better?
  • his lack of cricket. - Assume you mean lack of playing cricket. Is this acceptable in BrE?
  • they looked like losing. - Perhaps "They seemed likely to lose"? Don't think "look like" is quite formal.
  • He batted effectively for the rest of the season, finishing with 713 runs for Lancashire at 54.85; his batting was praised but his absences may have prevented the team from winning the Championship; they finished second. - Three semi-colons?
  • I also get carried away with semi colons. Fixed. 20:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
  • The wedding attracted media attention and was well-attended. - Glad to see we're not tiptoeing around his wife like last time. Do the sources give attendance figures?
  • scored a century in difficult batting conditions - any idea what kind of conditions? Wet?
  • drawn with England in a dominant position. - Wouldn't a draw be both at the same score? How could England be dominant?
  • I've added a link to draw, but a draw in cricket is not the same as a tie. A game is drawn when time runs out, so a team could be hundreds of runs behind with the last batsmen at the wicket, and if time runs out it is a draw. Therefore, a team can be very dominant. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • With the bat, MacLaren's only score over fifty was that in the second Test, and he finished the series with 164 runs at 32.80. - Why do you include "With the bat," here?
  • Distinction between bowling and throwing possibly not clear for non-Cricket fans and those who do not click articles
  • Hmm. I'm reluctant to go into too much detail here, as it is tangential to MacLaren, but needs including as he was a lone voice defending Mold. I'd prefer to leave it. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • another Ashes - ? You don't mention Ashes anywhere earlier except in the lede. Also, Ashes should be linked.
  • summoned Sydney Barnes from Manchester to play instead of either. - Thought they couldn't stand each other. Also, why do you include his first name?
  • the toss - Link?
  • Is the 1902 Ashes series worth its own article? Sounds like there are lots of references available.

Skipping ahead...

  • a tactic which often divides critics, - Sure, maybe until now, but the rest of the paragraph is in the past tense.
  • Images
  • Potential problem here. Some digging reveals that E Hawkins was not the photographer, but the name of the company, named after the late proprietor. I suspect that the photograph would have been registered with the photographer's name, but that is not available and is likely unrecorded anymore. The copyright owner would have been the proprietor, and I'm not too sure who it was at that date. It was probably a George Thatcher, who was born in 1839, so in this case it would certainly be PD-70; although I cannot trace a death date, I think we can safely say he died before 1943. The other possibility as proprietor was "Miss Clara Wivil", who died in 1932, if this site can be trusted (and it is backed up by the National Archives and Ancestry.com if you dig deeply enough. But I cannot find when the ownership switched from one to the other; it was Thatcher in 1895, around the time of this photograph according to this. In either case, we are Ok for PD-70, but how do we show this? Sarastro1 (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can't think of anything short of actually putting that down in writing. Or, last I checked, in the UK a copyright where only a company is credited was considered anonymous in terms of duration, so PD-anon-1923 might work. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:51, 14 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Otherwise quite good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Duplicate links: No-balled (#Full-time cricketer), George Hirst (#Ashes series of 1902), Neville Cardus (#Replacement as England captain), Colin Blythe (#Return as England captain), Bill Ponsford (#Coach and senior figure), batting crease (#Style and technique)
  • strong bowling available. - or strong bowlers available?
  • F. S. Jackson - You refer to him as Stanley above. Confusing.
  • and he travelled to India with him during the winter of 1904–05. - Since we have two different men in this sentence, this clause may be confusing.
  • the negative tactics - Huh?
  • he later clashed with committee members unhappy with his decision to use the money to buy a motor car. - Subject of the preceding sentence was "Lancashire". Suggest ", who..."
  • "his ridiculous private secretary" - Hmm... not as barbed as Tim's quotes below, but when one gets the legal system to comment like this one must be doing something devilishly well.
  • second innings. In the second innings - ...
  • MacLaren kept him bowling for a long period until he tired and was easily punished by the batsmen. - Who was punished, MacLaren or Carr?
  • The World of Cricket - Notable enough for a redlink?
  • Lionel Robinson's team - Who's he?
  • Eastbourne Cricket Club - Notable enough for a redlink?
  • Eastbourne Cricket Club invited him to captain a team named "An England XI" against the tourists following the conclusion of the Tests; he was dismissed by critics when he claimed that he could beat the Australian team; prior to the game, the Australians were undefeated on the tour and had won 22 of their 36 games. - Semicolons abound.
  • Be careful of repeating "Lancashire" too much.
  • —including an unpaid champagne bill at Old Trafford Cricket Ground in 1923— - Why does this warrant special mention?
  • In the 1940s, his health began to fail. He was hurt in a car crash and then contracted cancer. - How hurt? Any more details? Cripes, talk about going out with a mewl. Not a pretty fate. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:22, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]



Comments from Tim riley
  • Lead
  • Early life
  • Lancashire cricketer
    • "In the absence of other amateurs…" – I think you need a footnote here explaining that the captaincy was always reserved for amateurs.
    • "accidentally standing on his own wicket" – I'd be inclined to omit the adverb from the piping, and have this as "accidentally standing on his own wicket". (I suppose it's absolutely out of the question to say, "He didn't quite get his leg over"?)
  • Appointment and start of captaincy
    • "MacLaren replaced W. G. Grace" – would it be too much of a digression to say why Grace stood down?
      • I had this in and took it out again as it seemed a digression. It is a good story, but I think it may be a better story about CB Fry than MacLaren. I'll ponder a little more. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:31, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Replacement as England captain
  • Return as England captain

That's my lot. A most enjoyable and instructive article, as we have come to expect from Sarastro in diesen heil'gen Hallen.

Ha, that made me chuckle! And thanks for the comments and kind words. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:31, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PS: I said I knew a couple of nice things about MacLaren:

  1. This is George Lyttelton in 1957: "It is disillusioning to one with my youthful loyalties to realise that the majestic MacLaren, with his 'superb crease-side manner', was an extremely stupid, prejudiced and pig-headed man, even in cricket matters. Plum always says he had the worst fault of a captain, viz. pessimism about his team, expressed in their presence: 'Just look what they’ve given me—half of them creaking with old age, George Hirst fat as butter' etc etc. But let us remember that when Wainwright gave him a long-hop to leg to get his century off in a Gents and Players, he kicked it away and sternly ordered him to bowl his best." (The phrase about MacLaren's "superb crease-side manner" is from James Agate's Ego 9, attributing the phrase to C B Fry.)
  2. MacLaren had the modesty to say, comparing himself with Victor Trumper, "I was supposed to be a batsman in the Grand Manner. Compared to Victor, I was as a cab-horse to a Derby winner." Quoted in Vernon Scanell, Sporting Literature—An Anthology (1987), p. 254 – Tim riley (talk) 15:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • To be honest, despite his less-than-great reputation, and the fact that I was prepared to dislike him, I can't help liking Old Archie, somehow. I like that Trumper quote. I might have to add it somewhere. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:34, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: This is the first half of my observations and suggestions concerning this article. I have been making minor corrections/amendments as I have gone along:

Early life
  • I imagine that MacLaren snr wasHonorary treasurer?
  • Repetitions: "cricket", "cricketer", "cricket", in line 3 para 1, and again line 1 para 2.
  • Can we have the year of his first appearance in Eton v Harrow?
  • also ... also" in third paragraph
Lancashire cricketer
  • "But MacLaren's financial constraints kept him at the District Bank". I am struggling with this wording. The "But" should definitely go, and I think "circumstances" would be better than "constraints".
  • The choice of "moderately" successful is odd, since he topped the 1892 avearges, "scored consistently" in 1893 and won representative honours. What would he have needed to do to be called "successful"?
  • The sources are united that he was not as good as everyone expected given his talent. Additionally (and with apologies to Tim!) Lancashire's batting was not amazing in this period. In fact, it was pretty awful so topping the averages was not perhaps the greatest achievement. And the sources call him consistent but he only averaged 25 that season, and in the mid-20s in each of these seasons. Would it be easier to give his batting averages for these seasons? I was trying to avoid just listing averages again, but perhaps it's unavoidable here. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "MacLaren studied cotton manufacture in New Orleans" - on behalf of the bank, perhaps? An explanatory phrase would help.
  • As I indicate above, there is no explanation in the source, and my reading of it is that it was on behalf of his father, as that was his father's business. I'm wondering should we just cut this as it is hardly that relevant. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Test debut
  • "Approached to organise a touring team by the Australian cricket authorities of Victoria and New South Wales..." Unnecessary detail - "Australian cricket authorities" is enough
  • Another "But..." sentence at end first para. I suggest a check through the article for this - it rarely works.
  • "MacLaren faced financial trouble" → "MacLaren was in financial difficulties"
  • The last two sentences are a bit magaziney. I would cut them down to a neutral summary: "On the six-week outward journey MacLaren met (Kathleen) Maud Power, an Australian socialite and the daughter of a horse racing official. They were married on..." (give date)
World record holder
  • Wordcount watch: some superfluities, e.g. "at the first opportunity"; "Somerset had a reasonable team at the time, but"; "he was immediately chosen to play..."; "just 15 runs
Second tour of Australia
  • I suggest rephrasing the opening sentence: "MacLaren's teaching duties meant that in 1897 he again missed the start of the cricket season, and he felt it necessary to resign as Lancashire's captain".
  • The continue: "When he began playing he scored heavily..." etc
Appointment and start of captaincy
  • Although I hesitate to suggest more words, I feel a (very) brief explanation is required (perhaps in a footnote) of the circumstances whereby MacLaren was appointed to the Test captaincy in Grace's place. As I recall, Grace's age (almost 51) was an issue, as was the question of whether MacLaren should return to the team. When it was decided that MacLaren should be in the side, Grace stood down to make way for him. The selectors then made Archie captain, for the reasons which you give.
  • This was in an earlier version of the article, as I mentioned to Tim, but I removed it for reasons of space. But it's an interesting story (although probably a fabrication by C. B. Fry, who liked to embellish his part in affairs) so I've put it in a note. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Full-time cricketer
  • I have grave doubts about the £40 a week claim by "some sources"; that was a very high salary then, and not just "comfortably more than Lancashire's leading professionals", but about ten times what they were paid. £40 a week is what an Admiral or a Major-general was paid in 1900 (source: Whittaker's Almanack). Senior civil servants, e.g. the Assistant Secretary to the Navy, got £1200 a year or less. "Some sources claim" may not be sufficient grounds to introduce the figure. Perhaps: "Surviving records do not indicate his salary, but some sources suggest he was paid comfortably more than Lancashire's leading professionals."
  • "During 1901, MacLaren recruited a team to tour Australia the following winter, having been invited to do so by the Melbourne Cricket Club." Somewhat clumsily phrased; perhaps "MacLaren was invited by the Melbourne Cricket Club to bring a team to Australia during the English winter of 1901–02".
  • "This was the last private England team to tour Australia, with subsequent ones playing under the colours of the MCC." This may not be completely true. It was the last private team to Australia that played first-class matches, but I am sure there have been other private, minor tours to Australia. Maybe worth tweaking the wording a little.

The rest will follow in a day or so. Brianboulton (talk) 20:41, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the first lot of comments. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Here's the rest:

Ashes series of 1902
  • You should acknowledge that there was a second Test, even though it only lasted a couple of hours (A.C. MacLaren not out 47)
  • I'm slightly concerned about frequent use of "just" for emphasis (e.g. "just four runs") OK in cricket reporting, but not really encyclopedic.
  • "by one wicket in a close finish" - some tautology there?
Replacement as England captain
  • I much appreciate "Albert Cotter". You could call him "Albert 'Tibby' Cotter" if you want to appease the cricket community. But I would definitely move the title of the Cotter article.
  • Ha! I was thinking of you when I did that one. To be honest, I doubt the cricket community is paying much attention, and is not too bothered even if they have heard of Mr Cotter. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Private secretary to Ranjitsinhji
  • "...he declined to put Middlesex's batsmen under pressure when chasing a small but challenging total to win the game; this may have arisen from his dislike of Lord's and the figures in authority there". Am I understanding this correctly? He effectively threw a game and allowed Middlesex to win, because he disliked Lord's and the cricket authorities there?
  • A little harsh, and the game would probably have been lost anyway. But yes. I wonder how far he took it. Maybe he just went through the motions and the source embellishes this. But he really hated Lord's. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By January 1907" → "In January 1907"
  • I think a word of introduction for Priestly (e.g. "the politician/cricketer") would help readers.
  • In my view there is too much detail about Ranji's finances, and this section could be reduced with benefit
  • The image of MacLaren in 1905 is very poor quality - could be an issue at FAC unless you can clean it up a bit.
Return as England captain
  • "As MacLaren's reputation suffered in the rest of the season, blame began to be apportioned to him, particularly after England heavily lost the game." The chronology of this sentence is muddled; surely the logical sequence is: first he lost the game, then got blamed, then his reputation suffered during the rest of the season.
  • Too much "began": "blame began to be apportioned"; "critics began to question..."; "MacLaren began to excuse his position" – all in the second paragraph
  • "But MacLaren..." ?
  • "a lot of" is not encyclopedic
Final cricket matches
  • "...but MacLaren's input pushed it to the edge". This is too cryptic; what was MacLaren's disastrous input?
  • I imagine there is a w/link for the 1921 Australian touring side.
  • "in addition, he only chose amateurs on the team" – I don't think this was "in addition" to his choices of bowlers and fielders, I think it was a basic decision about the composition of the team.
  • Actually, it was. He specifically only wanted amateurs and no beastly professionals; given that this was 1920s England, it was obviously a huge deal that they won. I've reworked to make this a little more explicit. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Final years
  • Among the miscellany of MacLaren's money-making activities is the information that he "briefly owned a hotel". How could someone so obviously skint and in debt manage to acquire a hotel? Or was he managing it on someone else's behalf?
  • "He was hurt in a car crash and then contracted cancer." I imagine there are dates for the crash, and perhaps for the onset of cancer.
  • Cause of wife's death?
Style and technique
  • In the first few sentences we have "his technique was based on scoring runs safely" and "He scored runs quickly". These statements sem somewhat at odds
  • Not really. He scored from shots which carried little risk, but he did so at a fast pace. Bradman did something similar, and batsmen do it all the time in one-day matches now: scoring at a run a ball but not taking the remotest chance. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "effective ... effective" in the same line
  • Too many "Buts" ("But judgements...", "But Peter Wynne-Thomas...", "But Gibson..."
  • The structure of the prose needs looking at. The sentence about MacLaren's unpopularity shouldn't appear in the middle of a discussion on his merits as a captain. I also think that, since about half of the section is about the captaincy issue, the title "Style and technique" is probably not appropriate.

That's about it. I can't say I ended up liking him – there aren't many redeeming features to set off against what seems like massive arrogance and irresponsibility. One thing in his favour is that he wasn't a cricket establishment man – I suppose we can be grateful for that. Definitely not a villain in the Allen mould. I think the article does him justice; if it were my creation I'd probably not give his seasonal performance figures for every season, but maybe some find those figures helpful. I'll keep an eye open for the FAC. Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all your help. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:16, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 comments –

  • In Early life, the last sentence of the second paragraph will likely be the source of a citation request during the FAC, so you may as well add one now.
  • Second tour of Australia: "did not hear the umpires call and was run out when he left his crease." "umpires" → "umpire's".
  • Full-time cricketer: "Yorkshire's Wilfred Rhodes and George Hirst were not permitted to tour by their captain Lord Hawke. Hawke...". Try not to have the name repeat from the end of one sentence to the start of another like this. Giants2008 (Talk) 00:31, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Private secretary to Ranjitsinhji: Space needed after ref 8 early in the first paragraph of the section.
  • Final cricket matches: Another case of close name repetition in "with the cricket writer J. N. Pentalow. Pentalow...".
  • Note 8: Is the hyphen in "fellow-Gloucestershire" needed? Giants2008 (Talk) 23:32, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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