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Arthur Sullivan

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.

A quite good biography already, but needs a little more work to get to FA. Any advice towards this end is welcome. =)

Thanks, Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Brianboulton comments: A long and interesting article, of some importance in the history of British music. Because of its length I will review it in parts, and my first set of comments follows.

  • Lead: This needs to be expanded to a summary of the whole article. At present it only really summarises the "Life and career" section.
    • In what sense was Sullivan "English"? Father Irish, mother half-Irish, half Italian. Safer, perhaps, to describe him as "London-born"
      • The "Englishness" was very much emphasised his contemporaries, who really, really wanted an "English" composer of world class. For instance, his tutor Helmore called him (in a letter to The Times just after Sullivan's The Tempest premiéred) the "young English composer, Arthur Seymour Sullivan" [Ainger, p. 41) This attribution of him as English only increased as his career went on; for instance, this New York Times review says that he (and Alfred Cellier) are the "only two living exponents of the purely English school of music" (this is very typical of comments about Sullivan in his lifetime). Henry J. Wood (in the introduction to Henry Walbrook (1922) Gilbert and Sullivan Opera, London, F.V. White & Co, p. 9) writes of the G&S operas that "Nothing could be more English. Nothing could be more loved of the great mass of the English people..." You get the idea - England was determined to count him as one of their own, and he seems to have accepted this. Ain't nationality fun? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Perhaps the 13 orchestral works mentioned could be described as "major" orchestral works.

I'll leave it there for the moment. More will follow. Brianboulton (talk) 22:10, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. We'll keep working on them. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a bit more.

Sorry, this is a short visit, but you've got plenty to be getting on with. Brianboulton (talk) 00:01, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. I think this will stimulate Shoemaker to continue slogging thru Ainger and Jacobs. Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've got the cites as today's project. Also, you know, reading Jacobs, I begin to wonder if we're being a bit too discreet and should cover his scandalous affairs with multiple women a bit more... well... I'll add in some more once we get to that section. =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 05:16, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More review comments

  • Later works
    • "starring Irving and Terry" not relevant to this article
    • First para information requires citing. Citations also required:-
      • Sullivan under pressure from music establishment to write a grand opera
      • Gilbert’s refusal to write a grand opera libretto
      • Modest success of Haddon Hall
      • "Great success" of Merrie Englnd
      • "Miserable failure" of The Beauty Stone
  • Death, honours, and legacy
    • Odd chronology in section title
      • It's the same order in which the information appears in the section. Or am I misunderstanding your comment? -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • I was just pointing out that the honours came before the death. Not suggesting you take action.
    • Cite completion of Emerald Isle by German
    • Cite posthumous performance of Te Deum
  • Romantic life
    • There are no citations at all in the first paragraph
    • "Sullivan had a roving eye" is opinion. The statement that "he always returned to Fanny" needs citing.
    • The rest of the information in this section relating to Sullivan’s sex life, including his marriage proposal, must be cited.
    • "It is undisputed…" is opinion

Further comment: This article started out long, and is getting longer – 500+ words added since I started my review. It is, in fact, two articles: a biography of Sullivan, and a critical assessment of his work. Have you considered splitting it? The biographical article could more or less finish after the Personal life section, leaving the rest as a new article. There is the risk, if the article is kept unified, that readers will be too tired to do justice to the later sections. Please consider this. Brianboulton (talk) 21:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting idea. Is this done for other biographies of writers, musicians, etc? If so, I would be in favor of this. There is really much more to say about Sullivan's life, and as ShoeMaker completes his research, I suspect that the article will only get longer. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I did find one way to shorten the article: The Overtures section works better in Gilbert and Sullivan anyway. I'm not adverse to splitting the article, I'm just not quite sure how best to do it. I'm not adverse to splitting off the reception section, though I worry that noone will read it if we do. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 15:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've been looking at a few music articles to see what they have done. In the Mozart article there is no splitting between biography and assessment. The overall article is a lot shorter than yours, mainly because the assessment sections are relatively brief. The Beethoven article has a separate sub-article for Beethoven's musical style and innovations. It seems to be a matter of choice, but if you want the critical assessment sections to be as detailed as they are at present, running to around 3,000+ words, then splitting should be seriously considered. Both sections of the article are of high quality, and might well read better as independent entities. Brianboulton (talk) 14:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)

  • You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, so I looked at the sourcing and referencing with that in mind. I reviewed the article's sources as I would at FAC.
    • Per the MOS, the use of the graphical curly quotes is frowned on.
    • A number of your website references lack publisher and/or last access dates, which are the bare minimum needed for WP:V.
    • Please don't run the titles/authors/bibliographical data for a weblink all into the weblink title. It's much easier if you put that information out and only link the title of the page.
Hope this helps. Please note that I don't watchlist Peer Reviews I've done. If you have a question about something, you'll have to drop a note on my talk page to get my attention. (My watchlist is already WAY too long, adding peer reviews would make things much worse.) 12:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
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