Wikipedia:Peer review/Chōjū-jinbutsu-giga/archive1

Chōjū-jinbutsu-giga

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Hello, I listed this article for peer review for GA-class as I think that an important piece of art such as this should get to superior quality. I would like to know what could be done for the article to get to this class.

Thank you. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 01:43, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Translate foreign language reference titles to English by using |trans_title in the references. Be sure not to put square brackets in this part as it renders the title weirdly. Extremepro (talk) 08:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Y Done. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 22:29, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd love to see it as a GA. Comments/questions/suggestions follow:

Add alt text to pictures.
- Y Added to the only picture on page. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 19:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Good. Possibly you'd also need alt-text for pictures in the gallery (which should eventually be moved into the article text). bamse (talk) 19:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Oh wow. I totally forgot about the gallery. Let me correct myself on that last statement. :P – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 20:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - The alt text doesn't work in the gallery. :( – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 01:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Did you read this? Missing alt text is not a serious problem, the main focus should be on expanding the article.bamse (talk) 01:57, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are they really sumo wrestling? Was there sumo in 12th/13th century Japan?
- Y It seems that sumo wrestling came around in the 17th century. Changed. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 19:10, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - There are still a couple of "sumo" in the article.bamse (talk) 11:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Wait a sec...if you look in the gallery you can see a fragment from the scrolls that obviously depicts sumo wrestling. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 18:30, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - I see two people dressed like sumo wrestlers wrestling. I don't know if it is sumo or not, that's why I asked how old sumo is. Compared to modern sumo matches, at least a ring is missing. If you want to be safe you could write just "wrestling", though I admit it looks a lot like sumo and is probably an ancient form of sumo.bamse (talk) 19:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"...supposedly the origin of the right to left reading direction in modern manga and novels..." I believe there are older handscrolls which are read from right to left.
- We need a source for that. So far there aren't any. But I do have a source that supports my claim. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 20:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Do you mean this source (from history section)? To be precise, this "source" states only that it is read from right to left in the same way as today's manga. It does not say anything about being the origin of this writing direction. Also, who is Deb Aoki and what makes her blog a RS? Probably there is some useful info in Horizontal and vertical writing in East Asian scripts. bamse (talk) 21:07, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Her blog is a reliable source see here. I must have misread the source. My bad. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 21:40, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Sorry, didn't know her. I am pretty sure (but too lazy to find sources) that right to left writing is much older and possibly connected with the way of writing (with a brush). It might have been imported from China in the 6th century or so. The Chōjū-jinbutsu-giga might be the oldest caricature on emakimono, though there are some other "funny" scrolls (Hungry ghosts scroll, Diseases and Deformities,...) created around the same time. See List of National Treasures of Japan (paintings) for instance.bamse (talk) 11:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        Y Done. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 17:58, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The lead section needs some grammar corrections, but I suggest writing the lead as a summary of the article at the very last. At the moment the second paragraph of the lead is too detailed (Why is only the first scroll mentioned?)
- Yeah, I suggest that too. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 17:59, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The Chōjū-jinbutsu-giga emakimono, belonging to the Kōzan-ji temple in Kyoto, Japan as an ancient cultural property,[2][3] were drawn in the mid-12th century, whereas the third and fourth scrolls date from the 13th century." is confusing: Are the third and fourth scrolls not an "ancient cultural property" or don't they belong to Kōzan-ji?
"...who created a painting a lot like Chōjū-jinbutsu-giga..." Which painting?
- The problem with this is that there is no information that I can find that says the name of the painting. Just one reliable source that states that "there was a similar painting". – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 21:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - OK. I'd be really interested to see it for comparison.bamse (talk) 11:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Could you expand (similar style, similar topic,...?) on the claim that it is the origin of modern manga and anime?
Avoid "you".
- What do you mean by this? – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 22:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Avoid_second-person_pronouns. bamse (talk) 11:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Y Done. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 17:55, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When did such emakimono make "their way into popular culture, with many common people imitating the style."?
"...(currently) unknown event." Is it expected to be known soon or at all?
- Y Done. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 19:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have there been warthog, reindeer in Japan?
- I don't know. All I know is that's what the scroll depicts. Maybe I should change reindeer to just simply deer. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 22:39, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I am not a biologist, but Warthog says: "A warthog is identifiable by the two pairs of tusks protruding from the mouth...". I don't see any tusks in the scroll. Also, I am not sure how well known African fauna was in 12th/13th century Japan. Maybe it is just a Japanese wild boar!? As for the reindeer, I am not sure if reindeers have such pattern (dots). Could be a Japanese Sika Deer!? bamse (talk) 11:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Oh well sorry I'm not too big of an animal expert. Changing. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 18:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Wait a sec. Unless you have a reliable source (i.e. not me), I would be careful and just call it "deer". bamse (talk) 19:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In the description of the scroll be more specific than "animals" (which animals?), for instance: "...a group of animals at a funeral..."
It would be good to have the pictures not at the end in the gallery but next to the description of the scroll(s).
- Y Done. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 19:32, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Better. I'd also remove the "gallery" heading and arrange the pictures with the (to be written) explanations of the four scrolls, i.e., explanation of scroll 1 with pictures of scroll 1, explanation of scroll 2 with pictures of scroll 2,...bamse (talk) 22:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Wait a minute...what the hell? Someone completely disorganized the gallery for no reason. They used to be in order like you're telling me to do. :( I'll fix them tomorrow. Really tired from work today. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 06:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can see foxes and other animals but they are not mentioned in the description.
"...two monkeys holding a box." looks more kike one of the monkeys is carrying a box while the other carries a small package.
There is a scene between the box carrying monkey and the funeral which is not mentioned in the description.
- What scene? I already mentioned everything. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 19:36, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Question: How many animals are involved in the funeral scene? bamse (talk) 22:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"a frog praying to Buddha as the scroll closes", is rather a monkey praying in front of a frog-shaped Buddha statue. Also "Buddha" is redirected to Budai, which needs a reference as it is a non-obvious claim.
- Y Done. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 19:36, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
translation/explanation for what "shinsōbon" is is missing
- Y Done. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 00:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestions for expansion:
- Are there any interpretations regarding the various animals: for instance "monkeys depict such and such character or such and such profession"?
- Are there any views on the purpose and the audience for which the scrolls were created?
- Are there stylistic differences between the scrolls? (If I remember correctly, later scrolls are more rough with thicker lines.)
Add descriptions for the 2nd to 4th scroll including size and scenes depicted.
- You see, they're a problem here. The problem is I don't have any information about the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th scrolls. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 21:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's indeed a problem as one of the GA requirements is completeness (actually B-class requires "mostly complete" already). There are at least some pictures of the other scrolls in the gallery. Do you read Japanese btw? bamse (talk) 11:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When were the copies that are now at Kozan-ji created?
- Please explain a bit better. – J U M P G U R U ^{■ask㋐㋜㋗■} 17:55, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - "The scrolls currently on display at Kōzan-ji are reproductions." Are these reproductions old or recent (late 20th/early 21st century)? If they are old, it might be interesting to mention the year or period they were created. Better explained now?bamse (talk) 18:20, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quite some comments. Hope you are not discouraged. Definitely the article needs quite some expansion as it covers only 1/4 of the scrolls. Apart from that, POV interpretations (warthog, sumo,...) should be either referenced or removed.bamse (talk) 11:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]