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Dan Leno

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because of the extensive work I have undertaken in the last few weeks and I now feel confident the article meets GA criteria. This will be my second GAC and one that I have thoroughly enjoyed working on. I would like to take this to FAC in the next few months, depending on how well it does here. Please be as critical as you like as this will not only help the article, but will also help me as an editor in the future. Many thanks! -- Cassianto (talk) 10:44, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
  • The article looks like it's in pretty good shape to begin with, so that will make this more fun. I'm not an expert with the FA criteria, so you should probably get advice/copyediting from someone else, as well. I'll see what I can do though.
  • Links: No dabs, subscription sources (such as the ODNB) should be noted as such. The WP:REPEATLINK script I use is showing Pantomime, Max Beerbohm, and Grand Order of Water Rats repeated one too many times.
  • The auto-peer review link is highlighting "Many considered Leno and Albert Chevalier to be Britain's two leading comic music hall singers of the late 19th century." You should note who the "Many" are who considered that.
  • I ran a couple scripts on the page, hopefully there are no problems with the changes.
  • The ISBNs look like they need formatting. I think they should be consistent at 10 or 13 digits with consistent hyphen use.
  • ISBN's replaced with OCLCs complete with link. -- Cassianto (talk)
Cassianto, you should *not* replace ISBNs with OCLCs. ISBNs are better. OCLCs should only be used for books where ISBNs do not exist. But several of the ISBNs look wrong - they should all be 10 digits, or they should all be 13 digits. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:32, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have had another go. Some do not exist, despite extensive research on the internet and at the British Library this morning. So, as suggested, these will have to have OCLC number's added instead. I will continue on the further reading section later. Cassianto (talk) 11:28, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You might want to think about trying to work some of the Further reading section into use as references, at FAC they might bring that up as a comprehensiveness issue.
Cassianto this is a good thought. Feel free to e-mail me if you want to discuss this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suggest noting in the lead that the GOWR was a entertainment industry charity and brotherhood or something.
  • "Born in Marylebone, London, he began to entertain as a child." Might want to avoid starting the paragraph with a pronoun.
  • That's understood. Replaced.
  • "He was the youngest of six children, including two brothers, John (1851–1893) and Henry and an elder sister Frances." Might want to take a stab at rephrasing this, see if you can smooth it out a bit. Cassianto (talk),
  • "The word "Irish" was suggested by his stepfather, William, who thought that it would ensure greater success." Do we know why he thought that?
  • ""Patrick" was chosen so that Leno could earn a separate fee, 23 shillings per performance plus living expenses." Why did that name allow him to earn a separate fee?
  • "The same year, the Lenos appeared in Belfast at the same time as Charles Dickens, who was giving lectures in local schools, and who encouraged the young Leno." Did he speak with Dickens personally or was it that he heard Dickens say something encouraging during a lecture?
  • "In October 1884, the Lenos gave up the lease on the theatre." Do we know why they did this?
  • "In 1885, now married, he and Lydia moved to London where he gained new success with a solo act that featured comedy patter, dancing and song." Do we know when they married?
  • "On the night of his London debut, he appeared in three music halls: the Foresters' Music Hall in Mile End, Middlesex Music Hall in Drury Lane and Gatti's-in-the-Road, where he earned £5 a week." Was this what he earned from all three or just the last one?
  • "included Collins Music Hall in Islington," I suggest linking Islington here.
  • You start consecutive sentences "Though..." and "Although..." in the 1880s section. Might want to vary that up a bit.
  • I made some copyedits, feel free to revert if you don't think they're improvements. (Also, keep in mind that British English doesn't come naturally to me.)
  • "Like his alcoholic father and stepfather, Leno began to drink heavily, and by 1901 he had became an alcoholic." Do we know what kind of drinks he preferred?
  • Try to be consistent in serial comma use/non-use, i.e. "a police officer, a Spanish bandit, a fireman, and a hairdresser." vs "including "The Detective", "My Old Man", "Chimney on Fire", "The Fasting Man", "The Jap", "All Through A Little Piece of Bacon" and "The Detective Camera"."
Fixed now. I eliminated the serial comma. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... which he performed at London's Surrey Theatre in 1886, having been spotted singing "Going to Buy Milk" by the Surrey Theatre manager, George Conquest." Could the cause and effect here be spelled out a little better?
  • "which had the improbable title" What made the title improbable?
swapped improbable to unique, as I bet there was no other performance with that kind of title! Cassianto (talk) 19:19, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His performances proved popular with audiences..." This is the same starting a paragraph with a pronoun thing I mentioned above, use your best judgment here.
changed to noun. Cassianto (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "because he disagreed with the hiring of music hall performers to take on acting roles." Is there a good way to tighten this up?
I have re-worded slightly. -- Cassianto (talk) 16:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "pantomimes, running until 28 March 1902." How long did it run total?
I don't think this is an issue if they always started within a couple of days of Christmas. We just need to say "Christmas" pantomime. Cassianto, please confirm. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see, this is probably one of those things that is obvious to Brits that a lot of Americans wouldn't realize. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Mark. I'm an American too. We don't even know what pantomime is, but I think that if anyone has read this far into the article and hasn't read the link for pantomime, then at least the fact that we repeatedly refer to them as Christmas pantomimes ought to clue the readers into the idea that they started on Christmas. Normally, such entertainments only ran six or eight weeks (kind of like the Radio City Christmas Spectactular) Mark, do you think that the point that Leno's pantos were unusually successful is clear enough? -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think the point about it being usually successful is clear now. I was curious because I wasn't sure if they started right before Christmas or if it was a Christmas season thing starting in early December. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Pantomime's here in blighty are not nearly as successful as they were then, but are still considered to be a traditional part of Christmas. Sadly, they now feature non-entity celebrities who are famed for nothing more than a shampoo commercial. They are closely linked to music hall, and as a result burlesque for you guys due to the variety, spontaneity and audience participation. The Leno panto's at Drury Lane were famed, primarily for their austentatios and elaborate productions, and of course for Leno and his co-stars. If you go there today, you are reminded of the panto days as there are plaques, bill posters and photo's and press cuttings on the wall's . The theatre is now owned by Andrew Lloyd-Webber who is always vocally proud of it's history.[1] Hope this helps. -- Cassianto (talk) 17:48, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Very interesting, I'll try to look that up. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Gents, it started on Christmas eve and finished on 28 March 1902. (I hope they had an intermission! :-) ) -- Cassianto (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the excellent comments and copy edits, everyone. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it looks to me like this article is very well-written, not a whole lot of copy edits needed in my view (though there are doubtless some reviewers who could find a few things. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • More Comments/Questions
  • "a further two shows, the musical farce, In Gay Piccadilly! and Mr. Wix of Wickham" Is the second comma needed here?
done Cassianto (talk) 17:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1897, Leno went to America..." Is the name of the ship he traveled on known?
I have access to shipping records but it may be difficult to cite. I have tried to steer clear of such detail as it caused problems at Stanley Holloway's FAC. I will look and ask for cite advice if found Cassianto (talk) 17:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't worry about it, I was just thinking if he sailed on a famous boat it would be nice to note that. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"The Silver Albatross" was the boat. No not famous. I'll leave this. Cassianto (talk) 19:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, he rejected all later offers to tour the United States and Australia." Interesting, I wonder why that was?
elaborated on. Cassianto (talk) 19:27, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... the first paper to bear an individual's name." Does this need to be qualified somehow, or was it really the first paper ever to bear someone's name?
Please double-check the source, but if says "first", I have no reason to doubt it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:29, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Double checked and reworded with slight extension. -- Cassianto (talk),
  • "In 1880, Leno met Sarah Lydia Reynolds (1866–1942), a Birmingham-born comedy singer, while appearing at King Ohmy's Circus of Varieties, Rochdale." Who was appearing at the circus?
Nobody notable. Harry Clayton, Arthur West and Charles Deswart... No me neither!. Cassianto (talk) 19:39, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think the question is: Was it Leno or Lydia (or both) who was appearing at the circus? -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:29, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah got ya! Both. They met there whilst performing. -- Cassianto (talk) 22:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Personal life section you have "They married in 1883" twice.
deleted. Cassianto (talk) 19:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should this be "St. George's Church, Hulme, in Manchester" or "St. George's Church, in Hulme, Manchester"?
done. Cassianto (talk) 19:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Leno owned two acres of land" Should probably add a conversion template here.
  • "where he produced cabbages, potatoes, poultry, butter and eggs, of which he would send dozens as Christmas presents." I assume he sent dozens of eggs, do you think it is clear enough though? Mark Arsten (talk) 17:04, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reworded. Cassianto (talk) 19:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I reworded it again. It doesn't matter how many. Now it just says that he sent gifts. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:29, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Leno began to drink heavily after performances, and by 1901, like his father and stepfather before him, he had become an alcoholic". Do we know when he began to drink heavily after performances?
  • "It was often a result of his diminishing ability to remember his lines and inaudibility in performance." What does "It" refer to here?
specified further. -- Cassianto (talk) 01:05, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You might want to mention in the text where he's buried (it's just in a caption now).
added. Cassianto (talk) 00:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That was great Mark, keep them coming! -- Cassianto (talk) 22:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here's a small issue that I didn't notice before: you might think about trying to vary the words you begin paragraphs with. In the Decline in health and death section you start 4 out of 5 paragraphs with "Leno..." and before that you start 4 out of 5 with "In...". Mark Arsten (talk) 00:38, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think I'm pretty much done with my review, I might find a couple other small things to mention though sooner or later. I think this is solidly at GA quality, and likely on it's way to FA. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank's for an excellent and thorough review Mark. I hope all of your points have been answered to your satisfaction. -- Cassianto (talk) 09:20, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Tim Riley

I think you have done a splendid job with this article. I particularly like the way you have incorporated the "Personal life" section into the chronological structure in what seems (but I'm quite sure wasn't) a completely effortless way. A few drafting points:

  • I don't remember seeing the names of performers italicised in other music hall articles, and I would think about removing the itals from The Comic Trio (Mr & Mrs Leno and Dan Patrick) In Their Really Funny Entertainments, Songs and Dances and from Dan Leno himself (at the mention of his new stage name in the 1880s section).
Thanks for your kind comments Tim. They have now been swapped from Itals to inverts. I have swapped ALL previous stage names as opposed to just the ones you mention above for consistancy. -- Cassianto (talk) 12:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You should, I think, be consistent about capitalising the definite article in the names of theatres; at present you have, e.g., "The Grand Varieties Theatre" but "the Queen's Theatre", and so on. I'd lower case them if it were my decision (except where they are upper cased within quotations), but whether you prefer "The" or "the", it would be good to be consistent throughout.
fixed. Cassianto (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later career
    • "In 1896, impresario Milton Bode" – this is a tabloid journalese construction, and you have wisely avoided it elsewhere in the article. British style guides counsel against it, and so do I. Adding "the" before "impresario" would transform the prose.
added. -- Cassianto (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd be inclined to put "the King's Jester" in inverted commas rather than in italics, both in the text and in the image caption
changed-- Cassianto (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • References/Sources
    • I don't know whether Hickory Wood is a double-barrelled surname or if Hickory was a given name and Wood the surname. If it is the latter, he should be just "Wood, p. xx" in the references; if it is the former, then he should be "Hickory Wood, J." in the list of books.
See afterthought.-- Cassianto (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ref 90: I imagine "p. x" refers to a page in the preface, but I merely mention it on the off-chance that "x" should be an ordinary number.
changed to 10. -- Cassianto (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Those are the only drafting points that struck me on reading the current version of the article. I have read earlier contributions to this peer review with interest: some very good stuff there, which has benefited the article considerably. – Tim riley (talk) 09:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Afterthought: I see Hickory Wood qualified for a Times obituary (29 August 1913, p. 7), in which it is made clear that his surname was Wood, and Hickory was a given (or to be precise a taken) name. So you have him listed correctly in the "Sources", but should drop the "Hickory" from the various mentions in the "References" section. Tim riley (talk) 10:08, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All references changed to Wood. -- Cassianto (talk) 13:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tim, thanks for your comments. I hope this has been done to your satisfaction. If there is any more let me know. -- Cassianto (talk)|

Looks good to me. If I were reviewing it for GA (which as an occasional contributor to the article I can't, of course) I don't think I'd find much to quibble at. Tim riley (talk) 20:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Yomangani

I haven't had a chance to look through it in detail, but here a few comments picked at random (and ordered randomly). I may add to them later.

  • It's pretty solid, but occasionally you have some short sentences that interrupt the flow and leave the reader with more questions than answers (e.g. "He earned £200 a week". For what? Those two pantomimes? That year? In general?), and some pronouns get a bit overworked when they are detached from the subjects by several intervening sentences.
  • ...where he became known as "The Great Little Leno, the Quintessence of Irish Comedians (meaning performer of comic songs). Something's off there. Presumably there should be quote marks after Comedians and the explanation put into a footnote, but it may be the parentheses are part of the title. I couldn't tell.
  • Mother Goose, the following year's Drury Lane pantomime... This paragraph needs reworking as Mother Goose has already been discussed in the preceding paragraph.
  • These productions included: Jack and the Beanstalk These productions? What are they examples of? Productions in which they appeared in palaquins? Productions in which Leno and Campbell appeared? Productions at Drury Lane? Yomanganitalk 12:07, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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