Wikipedia:Peer review/Edward Thomas Daniell/archive1

Edward Thomas Daniell

The article was a FAC, submitted without having a peer review beforehand, so I've listed it for peer review to help prepare it again for FAC. Some specific comments to help the quality of the prose would be gratefully received. As one editor noted during the FAC process, I'm in need of "a skilled copy-editor to help you past the final post".

Thanks, Amitchell125 (talk) 19:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Amitchell, glad to see your not discouraged and working towards FAC round II. Wil keep an eye here and on the article; comments to follow. Ceoil (talk) 00:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I am watching as well, and will be happy to lend a hand (I can look at every other issue, but I am not a good copyeditor :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:41, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia

This sentence provides a sample of some of the issues raised:

• Norwich was the first English city outside London which had the right conditions to create a provincial art movement, with more local-born artists than any subsequently-formed schools elsewhere, and theatrical, artistic, philosophical and musical cultures that were cross-fertilised in a way that was unique outside London.

Others have better prose than I, but how about something like:

• Norwich was the first English city outside London which had the right conditions for a provincial art movement. It had more locally born artists than any later school, and its theatrical, artistic, philosophical and musical cultures were cross-fertilised in a way that was unique outside London.

But don't take my word for it :) One good place to get prose and copyediting ideas is User:Tony1's exercises.

Gone with your suggestion, and started on the exercises but it's the hottest day of the year today, so will continue with your excellent suggestion when it's not 37 degrees. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:16, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Have a check for MOS:LQ throughout, for example:

• Roberts wrote, "Poor Daniell, like Wilkie, went to Syria after me, but neither returned. Had Daniell returned to England, I have reason to know, from Turner's own mouth, he would have been entrusted with his law affairs".

Article now checked. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

There are still several I am unsure of, for example, Daniell wrote to Turner, "I have had a very beautiful drawing made of it, and I mean to etch it the size of the drawing". And others. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:38, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Can I suggest that the correct style is agreed upon between you all? It's hard work making changes that someone else says are incorrect... apologies for sounding peeved. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC).

’

As you are the one with the sources, you are the one who knows if MOS:LQ is being properly applied. If someone else is telling you contradictory information, pls give me an idea where ... as in, an edit summary or a timestamp on this page ...and I can add further info. If you are unclear about what MOS:LQ wants, please explain what you need to know. I do not know how else to answer as I do not know who is giving you different information or where. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Got it (these should be correct now). Thanks for your patience, SandyGeorgia. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Unclear why this is italicized:

• "to Mr. Daniell to see Roberts's drawings of Egypt & Palestine, etc.".

Not sure either, italics now removed. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Have a look at WP:MOSNUM, unsure why this is twenty-four rather than 24, but not a big deal ... stylistic ...

• and twenty-four copies of the book were made ...

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

His water colours did not select a palette:

• Usually selecting a limited palette, his watercolours had a distinctive style that was influenced by Crome,

Sentence amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:25, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Should colon be a semi-colon? The word influenced twice in same paragraph,,also,work, work, vary wording.

Both issues addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:19, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• His etchings demonstrate his great skill in the use of drypoint: his surviving sketches may have been preparatory work for future works.

Second paragraph of lead has eight uses of “he” ... I should bow out because Ceoil will get all of this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:12, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for all your comments, SandyGeorgia, which I've finished working through. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Please ping me when Ceoil is done and I will look in again ... stay cool! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• There is a mixture of different kinds of WP:DASHes ... Wikipedia uses either unspaced WP:EMDASHes or spaced WP:ENDASHes in text, consistency needed, one or the other, and it is OK to adjust these in direct quotes. ENDAshes on date and page ranges ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:02, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Fixed, using Template:Spaced en dash, Template:En dash and Template:Em dash. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:03, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

There was still a mixture of some endashes and some emdashes, I corrected. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:02, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi @SandyGeorgia:, Aza24 was still unsatisfied with the dashes, so they got amended still further, but please feel free to tell me to revert if you think they are now incorrect. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:28, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Will look again, is there an edit summary that indicates where I can find the changes? A bunch of these that were right before are now wrong. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:54, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I made the changes here, where quotes included complete sentences, e.g. at St. George's, Hanover Square. I wish you would come and give me some assistance.". Amitchell125 (talk) 10:16, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Don’t start a sentence with a number. Unsure what “in the main” means, or I would recast the sentence myself ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:02, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, best I can tell, dashes are settled now to one style (EMDASH), but MOS:LQ needs to be reviewed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:09, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorted (see above). Amitchell125 (talk) 21:22, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

• 200 inscriptions were copied by the expedition, in the main by Daniell.

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:35, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Could these be put in order? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:08, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• Earle Daniell was by 1806 an officer in the 12th Dragoons and in 1802 his sister Anne had married John Holmes in Norfolk.[18][19] She died in child birth in May 1805.[20]

• Anne married John Holmes in Norfolk in 1802 and died in childbirth in 1805. Her brother Earle was an officer in the 12th Dragoons by 1806.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:23, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Continuing

• The heading "Life" seems odd, but I am at a loss as to how to fix that. The organization around that heading seems odd ... for example "Church career" would seem to be part of career, and Friends and associates would seem to be part of Life, so the heading just seems odd. Ceoil might advise other painters bios for comparison?

Most of the FA fine artists do have a 'Life' section, with a 'Works' section further down (or 'Art', 'Works', 'Style and Works', etc), so I'll amend the title 'Artistic career' ('career' is wrong for him). 'Friends and associates' could be moved to follow on from 'Career in the Church', but I'm not sure it would fit well there Amitchell125 (talk) 20:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:NOTCATALOG, citing prices to auctioneers breaches our not price policy; we only include prices if they receive significant coverage in secondary sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:31, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Prices are only interesting as a measure of the artist's standing in the art market. Unless we are trying to convey a pattern of appreciation (or decline) a once off mention (brought back to today's money) at first instant is enough). Ceoil (talk) 00:19, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Prices removed, but now the information about auctioned works looks wrong too, so that's gone too. I wasn't convinced about it being there in the first place. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:03, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure how he should handle this per MOS: (oil on canvas, ?1839). Defer to User:Ceoil.

Its a very commons issue in art history. The favoured construct is per Portrait of a Man (Self Portrait?) Ceoil (talk) 00:50, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 07:15, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

How do we typically handle citation of the dates of artwork? The dates in the images are not cited ... again, defer to User:Ceoil who would know better than I.

Frankly we don't generally cite image captions, which generally follow follow the format of xxx artist, artwork, c. year, museum/gallery. Its typically taken as given as easily retrievable on the internet, and for an FA will be contained in the commons description. But it is an easy opp to provide a link back to the webpage of the holding entity, especially if they have bothered to have something to say about the work. Ceoil (talk) 00:34, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Information verifying the dates all now in commons, so refs in captions now moved where they were used to verify dates. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:38, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

" ... was an English landscape painter and etcher best known for his drawings made during an expedition to the Middle East" ... "best known" is a thing that has taken hold in Wikipedia leads, and is rarely cited or citeable ... if not cited, could we just leave off the "best?

Agreed, done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:44, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

" ... including at the coast of Lycia ... " would it be intrusive in the lead to say "the coast of Lycia, part of modern-day Turkey" so readers don't have to click to discover where it is? I don't see that stated anywhere in the article, and we shouldn't expect all readers to be familiar.

Happy with that, done. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

"He normally used a small number of colours, such as sepia, ultramarine, brown pink and gamboge, for his watercolour paintings, whose distinctive style was formed in part by Crome, J. M. W. Turner and John Sell Cotman." This is very awkward. Please have Ceoil look at it because I can't pretend to repair. Troubled by "whose" not referring to a person in the sentence, and paintings style was formed? Something isn't working.

Edited now as this wording; Amitchell can you pls confirm its as intended. Ceoil (talk) 00:25, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Looks good now, thanks. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:49, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

"His etchings demonstrate great skill in the use of drypoint: his surviving sketches may have been made in preparation for future works." I can't understand why these two thoughts are connected with a colon. Is that something I don't know about art, that has to do with drypoint? Should I be ignored, or does that need clarification for the non-artist? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:53, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Lead section amended accordingly, also text clarified as it was the etches that were printed by Ninham, and the drawings that might have been preparatory work. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:57, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Only catching up, but "demonstrate great skill" seems to undersell, as if to indicate an above average journeyman, only. Is there a more exuberant source? Agree colon should go. Preparation suggests studies for specific works, where as what I assume here is that these early works helped him develop his talents for more mature and accomplished etchings. Ceoil (talk) 00:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorted, please feel to amend or comment. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:52, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

From letters to John Linnell it is evident that he was short of money, and might account for his decision to enter the Church

Grammar? Something missing! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:28, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

taking rooms at 77, Park Street, close

Is the comma after 77 intended? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:14, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

In the UK, yes (also, see MOS:GEOCOMMA)). Amitchell125 (talk) 09:33, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

How come other UK addresses are not same? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:02, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Dodged the issue by not having street numbers (they can be a source of confusion, as most numbers from that time have since been changed). Amitchell125 (talk) 18:56, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

In a 1835 letter

In an 1835 letter ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:16, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Sentence amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:37, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

His biography James Hamilton writes that he ...

?? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:40, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

The wealthy Englishman of his day often toured Europe;

Englishmen ?

I've taken out this part of the sentence, as it doesn't contribute much to the section. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:46, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so far, I am just bouncing around, but finding things everywhere. I am becoming concerned that either I do not know enough about British English, or a copy edit is still needed. If it is BrEng and the problem is me, pls let me know, and I will continue bumbling around. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

No, the problem is generally me, I'll let you know if you bump up against BrEn. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:50, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Amitchell, it might be useful at this point to print the article and go through it with a biro/pen. Its generally much easier to spot stuff when its on a page rather than a screen. Ceoil (talk) 19:17, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Good idea. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Copy edited down to the end of Early life and education, tbc. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2020 (UTC)Ceoil (talk) 20:43, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I might give a once over for over-use of commas when you are done. Ceoil (talk) 20:43, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

To note, i never review on technical, correct grammar and stuff, its always about flow, readability, engagability, internal consistency, and stuff. Ceoil (talk) 03:48, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

So I should keep doing what I was doing? I feared it was “just me ;) Please post to my talk when both of you are done and I will start at the top again ... busy elsewhere with the usual WPMED drama ... best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes ok. We are both combing through for issues similar to those you raised, and yes will let you know when done. Ceoil (talk) 13:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ceoil and SandyGeorgia: fyi I've now finished copy editing the article after printing it out, hopefully the things I spotted will have made a difference! Amitchell125 (talk) 19:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Continuing 2

This opinion in the lead might get called at FAC as needing attribution and citation; I searched the body and found the justification in the Etchings section, but unsure how this will be viewed at FAC-- Ceoil will know better. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:55, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

• As an etcher he was unsurpassed by the other Norwich artists ...

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

This is convoluted, reads as if the relationships had different styles, perhaps you can repair it by making two sentences. Take care to make sure it is clear what your clauses are referring back to.

• Edward Daniell was associated with the Norwich School of painters, a group of artists connected by geographical location and their depictions of Norfolk landscapes, as well as by personal and professional relationships, but who had very different artistic styles.

Sentence recast. Quite happy with this version (take 51 or 52). Amitchell125 (talk) 21:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

This could benefit from being split, I suggest ... but don't take my word for it, 'cuz prose is not my strength :)

• Not all of the members of the Norwich School were members of the Society,[11] which held regular exhibitions and had an organised structure, showing works annually until 1825 and again from 1828 until it was dissolved in 1833.[12]
  • The Society held regular exhibitions and had an organised structure, showing works annually until 1825 and again from 1828 until it was dissolved in 1833.[12] Not all of the members of the Norwich School were members.[11]

Yes it looks better as you've suggested, so done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:24, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Ditto, split before Other centres ...

• At the end of the seventeenth century, other schools of painting had begun to form, associated with artists such as Francis Towne at Exeter and John Malchair at Oxford, and other centres of population outside London were creating art societies, whose artists and drawing masters influenced their pupils.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:26, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Personal preference, I would use an emdash here, indicating a stronger break in the sentence.

• was remarkable in acting in its artists' interests for thirty years—longer than for any other similar group.[15]

Agreed, done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Here, you are using grammar school as a common noun, while linking to the proper noun. Either adjust the capitalization, or better, just link to the real thing:

• was educated at the Grammar School,

I've amended the link, but I understand in those days Norwich School was called the Grammar School. Please revert if you think the sentence is best left as it was. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Some of these may be personal preference; all-in-all, I think you are ready to return to FAC to see what others have to say. The article is prepared enough to my satisfaction. Good luck !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:55, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Ceoil

• Daniell later employed a looser style, towards that of Andrew Geddes and other Scottish etchers, whose work he had probably seen while in Scotland in the summer of 1831. - Hmm, did he see them or not, or should it be "first saw" while in Scotland in the summer of 1831

Andrew Moore states Daniell "almost certainly saw" the work of Geddes and his fellow Scottish etchers, which imo means there's no record Daniell did, and I expect Moore looked hard for evidence. Searle writes that D "obviously acquainted himself with the work of the Scottish etchers, notably Andrew Geddes" (without saying why it was obvious). I've amended the paragraph to reflect Moore's words. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• His later works excel in the use of drypoint. - "excel" is not a good word for wiki, or anywhere. Maybe "are accomplished in their use of".

Sources emphasise his skill at drypoint, and imo "accomplished" is too weak, so I've gone for "outstanding" (Moore—"he excelled in the use of drypoint"; Thistlethwaite—"in his own large drypoints and his later delicate Norfolk landscapes, he is supremely independent and for his time unique"; Searle—"(he) surpasses the other Norwich etchers in his use of the burr of dry-point"). Amitchell125 (talk) 18:59, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• obtained valuable subject material also not great phrasing; 'valuable' especially is vague on this context

Fixed, obtained and valuable both now gone. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:09, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Spratt and Forbes left the city before Daniell, who left overland after meeting the Pasha - use the word "left" in two consecutive clauses

Fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:14, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• an untitled work now held in the British Museum

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:27, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Severis stated that - "wrote that"; states is v formal, and also alliterative

Sorted, and taken out 'stated' a couple of other times. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:22, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• At Adalia, as Purdie helped him to return to good health,[63] Daniell wrote letters to his friends - "return to good health" might be "recover his health", dont like "as Purdie"; construction is overall jarring.

Should be OK now. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Daniell's watercolours of landscapes seen during his tour of Switzerland - 'from' not 'seen during'

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:39, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Frederick Beecheno,[69] wrote in 1889 - no need for punctuation here [trivial]

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:41, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• A memorial was placed near his tomb in Antalya, "by his affectionate and grieving relatives" - would also remove the comma [trivial]

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• and used the opportunity to study him prior to painting his portrait from memory - wot, "study him"? Maybe better is to "complete studies" or make "preparatory studies"

I've redone the story about Linnell's portrait of Turner, based on Hamilton's account. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Daniell criticised them and forced them to justify their action, and was quoted to say... ...that said "action" doesn't seem right

Agreed, I've rephrased the paragraph. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Daniell's watercolours of landscapes seen during his tour of Switzerland (and during his travels in the Middle East) approach Turner's romantic works in their style. - Each of the paras in this ". M. W. Turner" section beginS with "Daniell...." which makes for boring reading; 'seen during' is wrong and hopeless vague here; why is the visit to the Middle East in brackets

See what you mean. Section edited. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:04, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• Please feel free to revert any of the direct edits to the page. Will look at sourcing shortly. Ceoil (talk) 02:00, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I see the article has already had a source and image review in the first FAC. I would mention that in the next nom. Great work in last few days, will re look later this evening. Ceoil (talk) 21:20, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Pt II

• Happy with all the changes to here.
• In the lead, "usually selected" isnt quite right...maybe "worked from", and then mention the colours he favoured.

Dickes seems to be alone in describing Daniell's watercolour palette: "These sketches, drawn on half-sheets of buff-toned paper, loosely outlined with a hardish pencil; the local colours indicated with somewhat sloppy washes of sepia, ultramarine, brown pink, and gamboge; the details enforced with a reed pen, in bistre and burnt sienna, and sometimes heightened with white, are always satisfactory and occasionally very charming indeed." (p. 553). Now sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• Would merge the "Family" and "Early life and education" sections.

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• Similarly, should the section "Death" be re-titled as "Later life and death"

Done, but his "later life" covered here was only for five months before his death that.September. Can't think of anything better than 'later life' though. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok, given that, "death" is a better header. Ceoil (talk) 21:50, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• Did he complete his Master of Arts

Thanks for this one, I misread "proceeded M.A. May 25th, 1831"—he didn't start his degree then, it was when he graduated. Amended accordingly. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:52, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• You say that "relatively little is known of Daniell's early life", but the article contains quite a lot, both before and after this claim.

Agreed, phrase now gone. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:55, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• A small gallery of 6 or so works at the end of the page would be nice. Lots to choose from your compiling at List of works by Edward Thomas Daniell

(See comments below). Amitchell125 (talk) 18:04, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• Due to his social class, Daniell remained an amateur artist throughout his life. His private income and social position as a parish priest freed him from having to earn a living from etchings and paintings.[40]. Was it not more due to his parents than social class. Also, surely his private income and social class, and thus not having to graft in full time employment, allowed him to concentrate on etchings and paintings. Re "freed him from having to earn a living from..." usually in art history, when statements like this are made, its in the context of not having to rely on commissioned portraits and other commercial artworks.

Yes, it's who his parents were—his class—that dictated his choice of career. Reading "Daniell's social class precluded him from earning a living as a full-time painter." and "(he was a) gentleman with a private income" (Searle pp. 65-66) and "it was not suitable for young gentlemen to become artists" (Thistlethwaite. p.3), perhaps "Because of his background and access to a private income, Daniell remained an amateur artist throughout his life." could replace the two sentences? Amitchell125 (talk) 22:33, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok. It might a nice bit of context and colour to add the "it was not suitable for young gentlemen to become artists" quote from the book. Ceoil (talk) 12:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, done. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:59, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• Re the Norwich School of painters, a group of artists connected by location, and personal and professional relationships: that doesn't ring through, if there wasn't a similarity in style, they would have only been been grouped by local newspapers, rather than art historians. Ceoil (talk) 07:21, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Working on the reply to this one, but it's easily the trickiest one to answer. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

There is no real agreement about the common style of the artists of the Norwich School. Some experts focus on their landscape paintings, disregarding the variation in style between many of the works:

"(their) paintings ... were in a low-key realist manner inspired by the Norfolk landscape..." (Tate);

"The Norwich artists … consisted almost entirely of landscape painters in oil and watercolour; they concentrated on local scenery and often sketched out of doors". (Oxford Reference)

"...mainly represented by landscape paintings of rural scenes, usually of Norfolk”. (Moore, p. 9)

Others disagree that the artists have much in common at all:

“...(there are) slight formal affinities between some of their works..."; “Despite the stylistic and formal diversity of art produced by Norwich artists, their association and shared experiences of the Norfolk region has been said to endow their works with common aesthetic traits.” (Andrew Hemingway)

"The artistic style of each artist within the Norwich School is often very different"; "The Norwich School artists were united through their depiction of local landscape rather than the employment of a particular style" (V&A)

"Etching in Norwich certainly did not fall within any artistic ‘school’, as art historians generally understand that term, and still less can we identify a close family resemblance between the output of its so-called ‘members’. Differences of style and subject matter persisted from start to finish." (Searle, p. 111)

Does this help? Amitchell125 (talk) 12:54, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Lead section edited to reflect your point. Background section next, please feel free to tweak. Amitchell125 (talk) 22:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Background amended slightly. Amitchell125 (talk) 22:29, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. PS the galleries look great. However, are they (or should they) be in chronological order. Ceoil (talk) 12:51, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Good idea, done. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:10, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• What does Daniell indicates the friendship still felt by him towards "his old coadjutor" mean. The sentence seems incomplete. Ceoil (talk) 14:06, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Sentence amended, not sure why it survived looking like that for so long. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:25, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• Would move the Linnell self-portrait out of the Turner section, and into the section above. This is preference only, so ok to ignore.

Agreed, done. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:51, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• Is the sentence re "tree and house sketcher" in the right place - seems tacked on where it is, but worth keeping....may be in "Works and artistic style"

Moved, and it does look better there. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:54, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• Overall, I think the article is in great shape. Would be happy to see it return to FAC, when remaining issues highlighted by Sandy above are resolved. Ceoil (talk) 20:31, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
• The etchings gallery has 8 imgs; on most screens it renders as three per row - can we had a 9th? Ceoil (talk) 23:53, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:44, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

• The "Oils and watercolours" section seems a little lacking in detail on his watercolours, and was left hanging for more. They look most impressive from the four images in the gallery...can you add more info from the sources. Ceoil (talk) 00:22, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Section expanded with the addition of a couple more paragraphs, and images added to make up up multiple of three. Hopefully his watercolours are not left hanging as much... Amitchell125 (talk) 13:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

• Watercolours: Daniell’s watercolours have been praised by art historians. Binyon described them as showing him “at the height of his subject”,[54] and according to Andrew Hemingway, he produced some magnificent drawings. - this is about the watercolours so why are we mentioning his drawings. Should this sentence fragment be move somewhere else. Ceoil (talk) 19:18, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Drawings is confusing,so fixed this issue, but the sources do sometimes refer to his paintings as 'drawings'. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:41, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

• to recover his health is both old fashioned and vague. Ceoil (talk) 04:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Stuck on this one. Could you suggest an alternative? Amitchell125 (talk) 10:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Gone for recuperate. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Aza24

First impressions – Infobox:

• Would change to "London, England" for consistency with "Antalya, Turkey"

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:25, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• For the "notable work" is there really not a couple of works that he's best known for? If not, then I'd still change the "List of works by Edward Thomas Daniell" to "List of works" – seems silly to use the whole name when it's clearly for Daniell

This link was added during the FAC process on July 11 by Buidhe, although other FA artist articles, such as the ones you list, don't have similar linksgo with your suggestion, and see that others think. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:36, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:14, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

General layout:

• It would be nice to see 2–3 more paintings/watercolors/etchings of Daniell's, other painter FAs have many more (El Greco 12–15, Vincent van Gogh 40+, Caspar David Friedrich 12–15 and William Etty 20+) while this one seems to have around 8 at the moment. While I recognize it's a little shorter than some of these examples there's some space in the Turner section and the North Audley Street picture could probably be replaced with a work as well

The table below of all the FA artists in [[Category:FA-Class visual arts articles]] shows the picture is one of inconsistency, for reasons that are unclear to me. I removed the gallery for Daniell after it was pointed out at FAC that there was a lack of accompanying text (so I produced a new article to enable Daniell's work's to get the full 'accompanying text' treatment in the future).

artist	images	sandwiching	gallery	mini galleries
Jean Bellette	2	-	-	-
William Etty	36	yes	-	-
Caspar David Friedrich	12	yes	yes	-
Vincent van Gogh	many	-	-	yes
El Greco	many	yes	-	-
El Lissitzky	3	-	yes	-
Stefan Lochner	15	yes	yes	-
James B. Longacre	16	yes	-	yes
Henry Moore	14	yes	yes	-
Robert Peake the Elder	8	yes	yes	-
Benedetto Pistrucci	6	yes	yes	-
Hilda Rix Nicholas	4	-	-	-
Jacob van Ruisdael	15	-	-	-
Tom Thomson	60	-	-	yes
John Michael Wright	13	yes	-	-

As his etchings are the main reason for his notability, I think a mini gallery of etchings with text is the way forward. What do you think? Amitchell125 (talk) 15:28, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I think you were badly advised on the FAC on this one. Would love to see a gallry - go for it. Ceoil (talk) 17:40, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, I think a gallery would be beneficial for an artist where the oeuvre of their work in more notable than any specific one. Would be happy to speak with anyone at FAC that disagrees... and if opposition at FAC worries you, you might consider going the route of Friedrich with a smaller gallery and accompanying text. Aza24 (talk) 19:46, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Two small galleries have now been added. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:16, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Looks great! Aza24 (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I'll get to some more specific comments later Aza24 (talk) 05:03, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• I'll try to be picky since I know this is going back to FAC and that it has already has quite a few editors take a look at it:
• Perhaps it could be included in the background section that the founders of the Norwich School of painters, or at least the Norwich Society of Artists that preceded it were John Crome and Robert Ladbrooke just to seperate them from the crowd. Maybe this could be done by simply changing the line from "The Norwich Society of Artists, which was founded in 1803..." to "The Norwich Society of Artists, which was founded by Crome and Ladbrooke in 1803..."

Sorted. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:39, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• "died in child birth" link to Maternal death?

Probably not, as the article is written with the modern definition in mind and largely ignore the history of the topic before the 21st century. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:43, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Not sure if this is perhaps the Charlotte Street that is mentioned?

I believe it is. Link amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:47, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• I had never heard of [Sic] worth a link maybe

Used the template {{sic}}. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:52, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Link Girtin for sure

Quote amended to remove Girtin as I don't normally link in a quote (MOS:LWQ) and it doesn't matter that the drawing was Girtin's. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:57, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Would the St. Giles' Street link to St Giles', Oxford be correct?

Not the right city! Amitchell125 (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• "and was buried in the nave..." (I guess "is" could make sense since she is presumably still buried there, but "was" is more to the point I think)

Agreed, as the sentence is talking about the act of burying and not where the person now lies. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:04, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• link Nave

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:06, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Perhaps specify Stannard's death on the 7th of December?

Couldn't wait that long... Amitchell125 (talk) 15:08, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Would link Drypoint here in "and influenced his use..."

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:11, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Would link Parish church as well – hmmm reminds me of a link you suggested for some article, can't remember which... ;)

_{Knew that would happen... Amitchell125 (talk) 15:17, 3 August 2020 (UTC)}

• Since I promised I would be picky... make sure you're consistent with using "example". and "example." (right now it's mixed but the majority of them are with the quotation mark inside the period, so I would change them all to that)

• Hmm upon further investigation perhaps this was the use of MOS:LQ? 07:22, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Done, but yes I did refer to MOS:LQ. Each "example." I used was where there were two complete sentences in the quote, so it does look strange to me now. Revert? Amitchell125 (talk) 15:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• I would link Curacy to Curate in the lead and its first use in the text ("That year he was appointed to the curacy...")

Puzzled, as curate is already linked correctly, so why link curacy as well? Amitchell125 (talk) 15:49, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed – not sure how I missed that Aza24 (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• The line "Daniell spent the winter at Xanthos and when Fellows left, remained to make a more thorough..." might work better as "They spent the winter at Xanthos and when Fellows left, Daniell remained to make a more thorough..."

Done. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:52, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Would link antiquarian but that might just be me

Word removed, as it generally refers to a person, not a kind of discovery. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:55, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Also about the "sic" you use "(sic)" and "[sic]", you should definitely pick one or the other and the latter with "[]" makes the most sense to me

Used {{Not a typo}} for the quote with a pun on Daniel, as it looks better without "[sic]" there. Amitchell125 (talk) 16:02, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Stopped at "Friends and associates", will get through the rest later. The prose has evidently improved since so many of my comments were on wiki-links and such, good work there. Aza24 (talk) 21:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Sorry for taking a second to get back to this, looking through the rest now. Aza24 (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• "Alfred Story, Linnell's first biographer, " ?

Looks fixed. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:49, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

• Looks like Malcolm Salaman has a link

Link added. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:51, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

• "important documentary evidence of the region at the time" ?

Sentence amended. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:53, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

• I feel like I may have read too quickly but really not much to say for the rest of the article, its concise and well written. Anyways let me know when this goes to FAC again and I'll do some spot checks there (it looks like the previous nomination received two source reviews but suggested that the article have spot checks) Aza24 (talk) 22:53, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for your work on this review, Aza24, it's very much appreciated. Amitchell125 (talk) 15:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Passing comments from Hamiltonstone

This looks very well researched, interesting and the prose is quickly improving. Just a couple of things.

• "Daniell was, according to the author Geoffrey Searle, associated more with the "wider circle of Norwich-based artists" and more weakly linked with his contemporary artists because of his social class, artistic connections in London, and travels abroad". I struggled to understand what was being said here. what is meant by a "wider circle of Norwich based artists" - is Searle meaning something wider than the Norwich School? It seems to this lay reader improbable that in a small place with an active School that there could also be such a "wider circle". And when it says "more weakly linked with his contemporary artists", who can this mean? his peers in Norwich? But doesn't that contradict the first half of the sentence? I also think the article needs to be more clear about what is meant by "because of his social class, artistic connections" - as in, it needs to spell out what the class difference was that the article refers to - eg. because of his higher social class; because of his aristocracy? because of his lack of connections to upper class people? What was the nature of that difference? Same with artistic connections - because he had more of them? fewer?

I agree.

No other references to a "wider circle" can be found;

Of the artists who could be identified as his Norwich 'contemporaries', there are reasons why links between them and Daniell might be weak—e.g. after Banham he lived away from Norfolk; many in the school were also based away from Norwich, but sources highlight his strong connections there with Ninham and Stannard (Thistlethwaite p. 1, Searle p. 65);

Daniel was in a higher social class than any other Norwich School, being the son of a baronet and an Oxford graduate (Walpole pp. 156-7), but only Searle says his background affected his associations in Norwich. His artistic influences there included Crome, Cotman, and Stannard, no sources mention that these people treated Daniell any differently from their other pupils/friends.

All this makes the whole sentence a little suspect, so it can go, but any of the above not already mentioned in the article can be added. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• I found it odd that there was a section on friends and associates before we even get to the subject's artistic career, which would seem the most important thing about him. I'd be interested in other editors weighing in on the sequence of the material in the article. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:08, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look, @Hamiltonstone: I can understand how the Friends section might be better placed below than Artistic Career, and I don't see any problem with moving it. I'll give other editors a chance to comment on your point before moving the section. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:27, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm don't have a strong opinion either way but my gut reaction is that having the Friends and associates section closer to the life and career section would make more sense, as the two are related by nature and having it before the art could provide some background into his influences before the art as a result of these influences is explained. Aza24 (talk) 22:59, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

For the record, nor do I really have an strong opinion either way (I see it as sort of an "influences" section), especially given recent edits where the reasons for the dual career are layed out more clearly. If pushed, would retain the current order, but not a deal breaker. Ceoil (talk) 10:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)