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Hi-5 (Australian band)

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Previous peer review

Hi editors. This article has endured a long process, like many do. I am hoping to get this to Featured Article status, but my main problem is low levels of response to Peer Reviews and Featured Article nominations, including the third nomination in September which received no comments. Its second FA nomination had a bit of support behind it so I am still remaining hopeful. I think the Peer Review space will be a good way to receive comments and make sure the article is up to standard before progressing.

This article is about the Australian children's musical group Hi-5 - they once rivalled The Wiggles in popularity, but as of this year, the band is inactive, ending a 20 year run. The page reached Good Article status in 2016, and has since failed three Featured Article reviews. It has also undergone a Peer Review and I feel major issues have been addressed. I have been working on improving this page over the past five years. I am willing to put in the work to improve this article and am happy to make any adjustments. Thank you for taking the time to look at this page. Below, I am notifying some other editors who have previously been involved with reviews.

@Aoba47: @Casliber: @Dweller: @HĐ: Thank you to these editors for supporting the FA nomination in 2019. Hopefully you will lend your support to the promotion again.
@Nick-D: You were involved with the FA nomination and the Peer Review in 2019 and helped me to provide balanced views in the article. I would appreciate your continued feedback.
@Shaidar cuebiyar: Your assistance in helping this page to become a Good Article in 2016 was invaluable.
@Aircorn: Your support of Hi-5 (Australian TV series) in 2017 was indispensable. I would be grateful for further guidance.

I am looking forward to any support or feedback from any of these former supporters. Thank you in advance. SatDis (talk) 21:20, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: when you close this peer review, please be sure to remove it from Template:FAC peer review sidebar. If FA regulars have to do all the maintenance, they may stop following that very useful sidebar :) Good luck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:49, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aoba47

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I am putting this up as a placeholder. I am currently helping with your FAC and wrapping another person's peer review so apologies in advance for the delay in my comments. If I have not returned to this by the end of next week (i.e. next Saturday), then please ping me as a reminder. Aoba47 (talk) 01:22, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • This part, their final performance was in November 2019, needs a citation.
  • I can not verify that this was their final performance, however, I have verified that they did perform at that time. Should the line be removed? This relates to your point below. There is no information about the group disbanding, aside from the 2018 article here https://tvtonight.com.au/2018/09/hi-5-closes-production-office-new-cast-expected.html . The end of the group was rather abrupt so I've tried my best to relay the information.
  • I am uncertain so I would ideally like to get other editors' opinions. It does seem abrupt to me, and I am concerned that you are not certain if the group has officially ended or not. I would do your best to find any new articles about the current status of the group. It seems odd to me that not even a press release or announcement was put out at some time. The article reads like they definitely broke up (past tense and all), but there seems to be more uncertainty here. I could see this being an issue for a FAC, but it is not an insurmountable obstacle. I do not really have a clear answer here so hopefully other editors can jump in and be better than me. Aoba47 (talk) 05:03, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part, Minister for Communications Mitch Fifield jokingly, I'd remove the link for "jokingly" because there are three links in a row so it starts looking like a sea of blue. Plus, I think a majority, if not all, readers know what a tongue-in-cheek joke is.
  • Fixed.
  • Is there any more information about the group breaking up/ending in 2019? Right now, it just seems like the group abruptly ended so further background information would be nice.
  • The "Philanthropy" and "International versions" subsections seem quite short. I know that it is discouraged to use such short, one-paragraph sections because it can make the prose choppy.
  • I have removed the subheadings so that these paragraphs are now part of the "Brand and finances" section.
  • I do not think "some" is needed in this sentence: The newer line-ups of the group received some criticism.
  • Fixed.
  • I do not think the "Carols by Candlelight" subsection title is needed in the "Tours" section because there are no other subsections. This section seems rather strange because it only talks about their Carols by Candlelight performances and not their actual tours. I am confused by this.
  • A bit of background behind this - there used to be a list of their tours, but it was removed due to perception as not relevant to the article. I have currently removed the "Carols" subtitle, but do you think the whole section should be removed? I would not mind this.
  • I know that featured lists for awards have largely abandoned the multiple, smaller tables in favor of a larger table. See List of awards and nominations received by Lady Gaga to see what I mean. I would adapt the "Awards and nominations" section to follow the change in how this is being presented on Wikipedia.
  • Thanks for the great suggestion. I have taken this on and updated the awards table.
  • Make sure citations are put in numeric order. For instances, the citations for this part, enabling him to use his experience as a father to write appropriate songs for children, are out of order. I think most of the citations are in order, but it is worth double-checking.
  • Fixed. Please let me know if you find any more.
  • For this part, He was later succeeded by Chris White., I would add a time since "later" is rather nebulous.
  • I used "later" here because it's unverifiable when he joined the group. Should I remove "later"?
  • For this part, premiering on pay-TV channel Nick Jr. in Australia and also airing on Disney Junior in Asia, I would bundle the four citations used here. They are only used in this instance and bundling it would avoid having so many citations at the end of a sentence.
  • Thanks, fixed. Could you please check this one for how I've formatted?
  • Carols by Candlelight is linked twice. I'd double-check the article for other duplicate links just in case.
  • Fixed.

These are some quick comments I have noticed from a cursory read-through. I hope it is helpful. Aoba47 (talk) 05:58, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am glad that I can be at least some help. The article looks very good. I am not sure how to handle the final performance/disbandment parts because that information may just not be out there and it may be a situation where this group and brand was just quietly shelved. I would try to look up press releases or official announcements if reliable, third-party sources have not covered. I tried my hand at looking, but it doesn't help that the group has a rather generic name and I am unsure if as an American, my search results are different. Aoba47 (talk) 05:03, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks again @Aoba47:. Yes, it is a case of the brand slowly winding down and then being quietly shelved. I'm afraid there definitely was no press release and there probably won't be in the future. I see it as the brand being inactive for the whole of this year on social media and in performances, etc. Now in general media people make references such as "do you remember Hi-5?". The rights are still held by the company in Asia so it's not impossible that one day they'd try and revive the brand. I'll let other editors share their thoughts but thanks for your help. SatDis (talk) 05:17, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SandyGeorgia

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  • Why the reverse order in citations here? pp. 42, 41.
  • Fixed.
  • On non-English-language citations, pls use the parameter in the citation template to provide a translation to benefit English readers, eg: trans-title= The history of Hi-5 for Hi-5 Latino (15 October 2014). La historia de Hi-5 (in Spanish).
  • Fixed.
  • Could you please elaborate? Does this mean the video should not be cited?
  • @SandyGeorgia: Can I elaborate on this source quickly? So... it's a video on YouTube of a TV special from the early 2000s promoting a tour, uploaded by one of the cast members. The creator is interviewed and she answers a question, which I am referencing. The video is only cited once, after this sentence, The name of the group was derived from the high five gesture.. So are you saying it should be posted by the group itself? Any ideas on who I can ask about this? SatDis (talk) 23:44, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem with a situation like this is not whether it is an adequate citation for the text; it is a copyright concern. Youtube identifies official channels, where the person has (theoretically) the right to release the video. We need to know that the cast member has the right to release the video to Youtube; otherwise, per WP:EL we should never link to it per copyvio. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:47, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for clarifying @SandyGeorgia:. I doubt the cast member held the copyright for the video, as it's just a VHS recording - funnily enough, the YouTube video is now unlisted. Luckily it's just the one citation, and I think I can remove the entire claim to avoid the issue. Thanks. Btw, there is one more suggestion of yours - I am currently re-writing the "Reception" section and then I will ping. Thanks so much for your feedback. SatDis (talk) 23:55, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • See MOS:DATERANGE. In the Members section, you switch mid-stream, but should generally use all four digits unless in a table. And why is the text being "smalled" there?
  • Wow, thanks for specifying this. I was told to do that in the Good Article review. I have extended all of the digits and removed the small text.
  • I am unsure if the timeline meets ACCESSIBILITY, because we should not use only color to convey information.
  • Could you please provide some details — or an example — to show how the timeline can be improved?
  • Have changed "," to "", - hopefully this works.
  • Why not place the citation for each piece after the punctuation for each piece for easier verification? Celebrate was accredited as gold, while Jump and Jive with Hi-5, Boom Boom Beat and It's a Hi-5 Christmas went platinum, and It's a Party received double platinum status.[22][23][24] Ditto here, what is citing what and why three citations? In 2014, a Latin American group was created, followed by a local version for the Philippines in 2015, and the introduction of an Indonesian group in 2017.[136][137][138] More WP:CITATION OVERKILL here: He had previously worked with Harris as a composer on Bananas in Pyjamas; and had individually worked in Australian theatre.[111][114][115][116] He was originally approached by the creators with the task of writing top ten songs for an age range of 2–6; enabling him to use his experience as a father to write appropriate songs for children.[7][111][116] And here ... In February 2009, Lauren Brant, Fely Irvine and Tim Maddren were announced to be joining Nicholson and Burgess, forming the line-up referred to by commentators as the "new generation".[62][63][64]
  • Have changed this.
Prose samples

I suggest an independent copyedit by someone unfamiliar with the topic for a new set of eyes. (My general advice as a former what-they-now-call-Coordinators at FAC can be found at User:SandyGeorgia/Achieving excellence through featured content. Please pay particular attention there to Tony1's writing exercises.) The prose is a bit rough still ... samples only from one section only:

  • In February 2009, Lauren Brant, Fely Irvine and Tim Maddren were announced to be joining Nicholson and Burgess, forming the line-up referred to by commentators as the "new generation". were announced to be joining is awkward
  • Fixed.
  • Of the large membership change, Burgess described it as a difficult period of transition, generating uncertainty over the band's future. --> Burgess described the change as a difficult period of transition that led to uncertainty over the band's future.
  • Fixed.
  • Redundancy ... The new-look group ... The new line-up
  • Removed.
  • WP:RECEPTION could be most helpful here; I suggest rewriting that section to the essay.

The prose is not yet near FA standard, but you have a very good start here! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: Thanks very much for the comments, I will get to the suggestions soon. Is there a list of editors I can ask for an independent copyedit? SatDis (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You could try the WP:GOCE, but results there are iffy, and not always up to FA standards. You will be better served to follow the advice in my essay (linked above); that is, get involved at FAC and FAR, and get to know the good copyeditors. Build collaborative partnerships of people you can work with. Even the most experienced FA writers have to have wikifriends that pour over their articles. Good luck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:31, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@SandyGeorgia: Thanks for the comments. I have taken on board suggestions and left some replies above. Some things I will need further clarification on are the timeline, and I will have a go at rewriting the Reception section. Most of this was written many years ago, and I think I have matured in my writing since then. I have been involved with the FA review process (one of my articles is currently under review), so I do have a few editors I can collaborate with. I will also put the article up for a copyedit, and hopefully that will help. Looking forward to your reply. Thanks. SatDis (talk) 12:03, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure ...

  • MOS:COLOR says to take care that color is not the only method for conveying information. The timeline in the Members section cannot be deciphered without the color legend. It would need to be redone to some other method of conveying the information. I wish I could think of an article that has a timeline that works without color, but none comes to mind. I am also unsure if those colors are good for contrast (see the page I linked at MOS:COLOR). But for example, here, color is used in the chart, but along with a Letter code for the visually impaired. What is really needed here is to poke around in other articles to find a timeline that works without only using color. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SandyGeorgia: Hi again, I have had a go at rewording the Reception section. I used the WP:RECEPTION page for some inspiration. My main focus was varying the sentence rhythm, and not just listing "reporters said" followed by quotes. I have tried to reduce direct quotations as well. Hopefully this makes for a smoother, more concise section to read. I also shuffled the structure into three clear paragraphs - 1, financial success and accreditations; 2, positive reviews from press; and 3, negative reception. Please let me know how it looks now. Thanks! SatDis (talk) 01:33, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On my list ... please ping me if I forget, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just another question - I have tried to archive this url [1] and have got the archive here [2], but the archived site doesn't bring up the article's text... or sometimes it doesn't load properly. What is the protocol here? I'm archiving all of the citations and don't want one to get left behind. SatDis (talk) 05:58, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have never archived a URL and have no idea ... wish I could help ... maybe Aoba47 knows? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:03, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is an odd problem. It looks like people have tried to archive this link multiple times in the past, and now of them are working properly. I tried to archive a different article from the same website to see what would happen, and it only brings up the header so I am wondering if it is something to do with the website itself? It may be best to just leave this one unarchived. There are a few cases where the website archive simply does not work (or even accept) certain websites. Aoba47 (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps they have installed a robot which prevents archive.org from archiving; thanks, Aoba47. SatDis, I will get back to this after I finish up a number of other pressing things on my talk page, but I read through some parts last night and have much to add, so don't give up on waiting for me ... still on my list :0 I do think that calling in GOCE for a copyedit might be productive. More later, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:13, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
SG continuing
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I like to start over, on the assumption that lots has changed since I last looked:

  • Image layout is not optimal, as there is some MOS:SANDWICH and images frequently crossing sections, which doesn't make things easy on screen readers. Maybe you can juggle the around.
  • I gather the Timeline has been resolved per the feedback from RexxS and Graham87
  • Similar to the concern on the Youtube, we have issues using as reliable sources either Instagram or Twitter accounts that aren't marked as official by those entities-- how do we know they are who they say they are? For example, you have a tweet from Stevie Nicholson where you can see the blue check mark by his name, which indicates an account that has been verified as official. [3] But you have several instagram sources that are not marked as official accounts. They don't have the little blue check mark indicating they are who they say they are, so we shouldn't use them as sources.
  • Review MOS:LQ, "opting to recruit younger, cheaper performers." sample.
  • WP:ITALICS, MOS:BADITALICS, why are these italicized? including feature songs of the week and shorter songlets
Prose examples

(I hope GOCE will come through, as I think much can be done) ... a few samples:

  • the word announced is used 13 times ... vary the wording ...
  • Working on this.
  • were the original members. The original members had ... prose needs to be varied
  • Fixed.
  • It was announced in October 2008 that Crawford would be leaving the group at the end of the year to explore other options.[54] A month later, last remaining original member Foley also announced his departure.
"It was announced" passive voice, the source says *she* announced it. This whole thing could be put together in a more interesting way, idea:
  • By November 2008, the remaining original cast members had stated their intent to leave the group. Crawford announced in October that she would be leaving the group at the end of the year to explore other options, and a month later, Foley also announced his departure to focus on his adult music career. In December, Park also announced she would be leaving the group since she had expected only to be a temporary replacement. News.com.au's Confidential reporter alleged that Hi-5's production company had asked Crawford and Foley to leave, and that the producers were "opting to recruit younger, cheaper performers". Neither of them responded to these reports, but Park denied the industry rumours, saying that there had been no pressure for any of them to resign. The departing members gave their final performance at Carols by Candlelight on Christmas Eve in Melbourne.
But don't take my word for it; my prose isn't great :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:28, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Love this paragraph, I have used it!
  • What are regular lyricists? Harriott worked with a group of regular lyricists, He worked regularly with a group of lyricists? He worked with lyricists that regularly worked with Hi-5?
  • Fixed.
  • and by 2015, said she still receives ... as of 2015 she was still receiving, or by 2015 she started receiving ???
  • Fixed.
  • HATE the "saw them" construct whenever I encounter it ... The group's philanthropic efforts saw them join ... but don't know how to fix it ...
  • Simply changed to "included them"
  • Not needed ... Alongside financial earnings, (redundant)
  • Fixed.
  • Passive voice ... It was stated that the band had a teenage ... say who stated it ...
  • Fixed.
  • I like the way you're following RECEPTION to introduce themes, but this could be better worded ... The Australian press considered Hi-5 to constitute quality children's entertainment. --> Critics in the Australian press frequently described the original Hi-5 as quality children's entertainment.

MOS:LQ is backwards everywhere .. this appears to be an entire sentence, so period should be inside quote ... "I think the thing that should most worry parents is the ever-changing ensemble that makes up Hi-5". GOCE peeps will fix this kind of stuff.

  • Fixed.

Overall, looking much better! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:28, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • My image thoughts: sometimes we end up with convoluted layout because editors feel they must put a picture right next to the text that talks about it, when that isn't strictly necessary. You don't have to have the image of the 2007 group members where it is, and by moving it, you have room for better layout on the other images. I will go edit it now to my suggestion, as long as you feel free to revert me if you hate it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:39, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did that, see what you think. Once you have resolved what to do about the non-official Instagram links, I'll run through the prose again. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:28, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
SG continuing 2
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  • No duplicate links, no hyphen/endash issues, dates are good.
  • Non-reliable sources removed.
  • External links and appendices good.
  • No MOS:SANDWICH or MOS:CAPTIONS issues.
  • Table of contents is appropriate, structure looks good.
  • Citation consistency: the citation style uses author last name first, but this one has first name first:
  • Stevie Nicholson [@NicholsonStevie] (23 December 2012). "pumped for carols especially as it is the last for ... Check throughout ... citations look generally consistently formatted, but citation formatting and reliability of sources will be checked closely at FAC.
  • MOS:LQ looks good on a quick glance.
  • Refs need to be put in ascending order, eg, Nicholson returned as a guest performer in December 2018 and November 2019.[144][102] --> 102, 144.
  • Thanks, have fixed all. I have archived all sources as well and checked reliability while going through. Also, I have changed the official website to an archive as it is no longer live. SatDis (talk) 05:46, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Prose
  • No scourge of however, subsequently, in total, overall and that ilk, but the ten uses of also should be checked for redundancy. See exercises at User:Tony1.
  • Have fixed all "announced" and "also". It was an interesting exercise to discover that "also" is almost always redundant!
  • This semi-colon is too abrupt: Kellie Crawford, Kathleen de Leon Jones, Nathan Foley, Tim Harding and Charli Robinson were the founding members. They had all departed the group by the end of 2008; de Leon Jones went on maternity leave in 2006. Maybe something like ...
  • With de Leon Jones going on maternity leave in 2006, by the end of 2008, all of the original members had left the group. (Don't use a big word like departed, when "left" works just fine.)
  • "Later" here is redundant ... it couldn't have happened sooner ... The membership later changed several times. Maybe ... With de Leon Jones going on maternity leave in 2006, by the end of 2008, all of the original members had left, and the group's membership changed several more times after that.
  • Fixed both above.
  • Individually or as part of the group? Members starred in numerous television series, released music albums, and performed on worldwide tours. ... The group starred in numerous ???
  • Have changed to "they collectively" to avoid confusion, I only didn't say "the group" to avoid so many uses of that phrase.
  • Semi-colon after Chart ??? Four of them reached the top 10 on the ARIA Albums Chart, It's a Party (number four, July 2000),
  • Done.
  • Subsequent sentences starting with the same word (by) ... By 2004, the original line-up had received a then-record five consecutive ARIA Music Awards in the same category, Best Children's Album. By that time, they had received three Logie Television Awards for Most Outstanding Children's Program. Perhaps ... By 2004, the original line-up had received a then-record five consecutive ARIA Music Awards in the same category – Best Children's Album – and three Logie Television Awards for Most Outstanding Children's Program.
  • Great idea, have just switched them around to this By 2004, the original line-up had received three Logie Television Awards for Most Outstanding Children's Program, and a then-record five consecutive ARIA Music Awards in the same category, Best Children's Album. so that it doesn't sound like both were a record.
  • These can be two sentences (break where the semi-colon). performers for touring purposes; November 2019 marked their final performance.
  • Done.
  • Australian English maybe ? had multiple layers designed to cater for a wide range of ages in the audience ... to cater to ??
  • Fixed.
  • I don't think you can "outline" a departure ... Foley also outlined his departure to focus on his adult music career ... Foley outlined his plan to leave the group to focus o his adult music career ... ??
  • Fixed. That was my attempt to vary the "announced" - thanks for the suggestion.

These are nitpicks, and I think you're in good enough shape to approach FAC once these are addressed. Perhaps Aoba47 will look in again. Good luck ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:16, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for the ping. SG has already covered a lot of excellent points above. I just have two brief points below:
  • This article says additional filming for the 2018 episodes was halted before the Australian office closed, but Hi-5 (2017 TV series, series 1) says it was halted when the office was closed. Which one is correct? I had looked into this because I thought it was strange for production to be halted before something was closed down.
  • Good pick up. The production was halted first, and then the offices shut down. I have changed the "when" to "before" so they should all be the same now.

Thankyou both @SandyGeorgia: and @Aoba47: for such in-depth looks at the article. I'm feeling proud of it, and I would be so grateful for continued input from both of you when I do put it up for FA Review. I do have a featured list already up for review though, so who should I ask for permission to also put up a FA nom simultaneously? And I'll only do that once all issues are resolved here. I have addressed everything listed above. In regards to the four citations, I have thoroughly gone through and reduced this to a maximum of three to a sentence. Let me know if anything else pops up. SatDis (talk) 05:46, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Featured lists are separate from FAC; no need to get permission. Good luck! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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