Wikipedia:Peer review/History of Chincoteague, Virginia/archive1

History of Chincoteague, Virginia

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because… I'm planning to bring this to FAC when my current nomination clears and would appreciate comments. Enjoy.

Thanks, Wehwalt (talk) 20:49, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

• Lead
  • A superb image of the pony swim! I suppose it's out of the question to have it any bigger?

Happily, and I will hide behind you when people complain. Do you have any views on whether a bit of the right side and the top can be safely cut, or leave well enough alone?--Wehwalt (talk) 01:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd definitely leave it uncropped. Marvellous stuff! Tim riley (talk) 10:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• • "They are not known to have lived there, as the island lacked suitable soil for their agriculture" – the construction of this sentence slightly bothers me. I think perhaps replacing the comma and "as" with a colon would make it work better.

I think the two parts are related enough a semicolon will work.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• Setting and pre-European use
  • I may be alone in this, but from the moment I began reading the page, I was itching to get to the bit – which I knew would be there – about the origin of the name of the island. I wonder if you could find it in your heart to slip in a short sentence in the lead for the benefit of any other readers who may be afflicted with my obsession with derivations? Quite understand if not.
    • And now added, I see. Thank you, sir. You've made an old man very happy. Tim riley (talk) 15:06, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Hardly old, I am sure. But thank you.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• Antebellum period (1776–1860) – the phrase "Antebellum period" meant nothing to me. Is it in common use in US histories? Its import is easily worked out from the dates, I admit. I just mention the point, as a furriner.

It's a pretty standard historical term used uniquely with respect to the American Civil War, Antebellum period (probably not worth a link) . The years will make sure those alien to Our Shores will still get the benefit of the meaning of the caption. Since there was a fair amount of matter on the Civil War and its aftermath, it seemed a logical place to break.

• • "to harvest the bounty of the sea" – rather purple prose, perhaps, unless it's an indirect quote

Toned down.

• • "The first post office arrived" – do post offices arrive? (Shades of Dorothy's house in Wizard of Oz.)

Only if you have an influential congressman ...--Wehwalt (talk) 20:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Tweaked.

• Civil War and after
  • "In 1876, art student Howard Pyle..." – pony penning is mentioned twice in this sentence; I think I'd make the second one just "penning".

Played around with that and neighboring articles. Just not many good synonyms.

• Causeway and carnivals
  • "Whealton submitted the winning bid to build the causeway as well as gaining the charter for his company" – I struggle with this. You say the charter was to build the causeway: where does the additional winning bid fit in?

I've clarified. The charter was really to operate it. So he would get the profits from building it plus the profits from running it.

• • "have occurred every year since" – I often bleat on about policing such open-ended assertions. Are you confident that this statement has a decently reliable chance of remaining true for the foreseeable future?

It's the biggest event on the island, although I've never been to it (allergic to mobs). If it was cancelled, it would be major news, and the Chincoteague article would be edited, and I daresay this one as well. It's the moneymaker for the fire department (which appears very well funded, from my observation) and the hotels charge premium prices. It's not going anywhere.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

• • "the causeway was purchased by the state and the toll removed" – first we've heard of a toll. Do we know what Whealton and his company charged?

I haven't been able to find this out from the usual sources and google, still looking.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

In the meantime, as part of the above matter re Whealton, I've made it clearer from the start this was to be a toll road. If the traffic is not aggravating (usually it is not), it is a very pleasant drive, incidentally.

• Misty and tourism (1946–present)
  • "The bridge to Assateague is at the east end of Maddox Boulevard … Many souvenir shops and other tourist enterprises were built along it." – Along the Boulevard, I assume, but am perfectly prepared to be told they were along the bridge, à la old London Bridge or the Rialto.

No, though the old bridge seems to serve as a fishing pier today. The Chincoteague Museum (where I took those oyster container shots) is the nearest establishment to the bridge, with the McDonald's in a prime position. Clarified

• • "it featured in an answer and question on the game show, Jeopardy" – I'm sure this makes perfect sense to those who know the show, but to the uninitiated, answer before question looks damn' odd.

I'm inclined to let it stand. The link to the game show will suffice, I think.

• • "less expensive accommodations" – accommodations plural?

Changed to "property".

• • "most of the oyster-shucking houses closing in the 1980s" – but you've told us earlier that the oyster trade went phut in the 1950s.

Well, it did, but the oyster shucking houses continued as best they could (I guess processing for the cans you saw). According to Mariner, they were importing raw oysters from the West Coast to keep going. Plus apparently the name "Chincoteague oyster" still had cachet and so they would import out-of-state oysters, let them rest briefly in Chincoteague waters, and then sell them, especially in local restaurants. Tourists, you know. Quite a place these islanders live on. And to think, the oyster was once their world.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Delicious! (Always look to the talk pages to find Wikipedia's best lines.) Tim riley (talk) 11:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• • "In 1989, the town expanded to annex…" – this bothered me in the lead and bothers me here. Presumably some higher authority than the town council's was needed for this annexation. I think we need a few words on who was consulted and who approved the action. (It is, I don't doubt, perfectly possible that this will be immediately clear to American readers, but it looks odd to an English eye.)

I can tell you, but it's twenty years as a Virginia attorney that is giving me the answer, the source does not say. The Town of Chincoteague sued Accomack County seeking to annex unincorporated land in its county, and a three judge panel decided, as is usual, that the annexation should proceed. I do not actually have a source for that, so would probably have to ring the Accomack County Circuit Court and see if they are willing to give me details over the phone from their computer. There is an interesting article about it here, but I am much more likely to be interested in it than you, shop talk and all that.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

There's a bit more in the source. I'll clarify.

If anyone else raises the point it might be worth some more rummaging in the archives, but for myself I rest content with the above - thank you. Tim riley (talk) 11:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I loved this article. Your demure juxtaposition of the twin horrors of a nudist beach and a McDonald's made me chortle, and I smiled admiringly at the elegance of "uninterested in shooting the wildlife except with cameras". – Tim riley (talk) 16:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I am delighted that you did. Chincoteague is a nice place, and if you are not there on the weekend, relatively quiet even in summer (not counting the pony days).--Wehwalt (talk) 21:18, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I've done or responded to all of the above I think. Thank you for the review and the kind words. I think the ponies will help at FAC. Herd instinct.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments from TCO

"Feedback is a gift". Here's a couple pennies. Do the article however you like, just saying what might help the reader.

1. First sentence is too long and has some low value words. Don't confuse us with mentioning town and island both (of same name) and then we wonder why one is not blue linked. Just say "island town". (we can get into the nuances of town and island later but don't hurt your first sentence which otherwise evokes romantic images of Indians and gets the story moving. Cut United States also.

I will tweak it but if I don't use US, I get accused of parochialism by international reviewers.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

2. The geography is interesting but confusing and not well shown in your diagrams (and a fair amount of discussion touches on it). The whole Assateague versus Chincoteague. Maryland/Virginia border, Eastern Shore, town with the rail line, etcetra). I actually used Google Images to find reasonable maps to orient myself. The 1916 map is useless (even if you improve nothing, the article is better by just cutting it). The Virginia map, why do we need to see all the counties of Virginia? (also would prefer a better indicator than the red dot, but this is a nit). The detailed map of Chincoteague is actually too blown up to really orient yourself...at a minimum need something to show the relation to the shore and to Assateague: [1]

I recropped the source. How is it now? I realize it would be nice to have an image showing Franklin City and Greenbackville and all that. Who is good at making PD maps these days.

3. The infobox has a lot of almanac information that is about the current town (as if the article was for the town, not history of it). This is really an article that would be better sans infobox. (You can still have two images without an infobox, just get a collage created.)

Really only one, and I think making it big is justifiable. I've axed the infobox.

4. (+) The horse picture looks great. Very man from Snowy River driving the brumbies.

Indeed.

5. Consider (just consider) to do an initial section "Geography" that is more introductory and explains the formation of the barrier islands along with the current political boundaries. It will make it easier for the reader to follow the rest of the flow. You can have a map down in that section (map that you have had made for the purpose, not just using what you have now) that is displayed large, centered. (For the lead, I think a more "icon like" small map that just shows VA and the location is fine for orientation and then the big horse pic, maybe almost like a species range map in simplicity).

I am wanting to stick with the human history, to ensure it is reasonable in length and scope.

6. Break all the paras that are 200+ words, to improve readability.

69.255.27.249 (talk) 03:32, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Already looks a lot better.208.44.87.91 (talk) 23:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Hmm...I sorta think it needs more work than the other two guys. Why such a long lead (especially second para) for such a small town? I like your minimalist leads on the plays. This reads more like one of those leads where they do too much of the chronology meat of the story.

Also, I advise to have an introductory sentence to explain what the heck Chicoteague is. Will be less tangled than how you have the sentence trying to get the action going along with all the where is Chincoteague details in parentheticals. Like, "Chincoteague is an island town of Virginia's Eastern Shore, famous for wild horses, the Chincoteague ponies. The human history of Chingoteague starts with the Indians. Pocahantas used it as an oyster bar. Bla bla." You can then make the last para more chronologyish.

You have two big sections with no images. Can't you do anything here? Artifacts, paintings, maps (made custom but showing the story, timeline, data chart, etc.?) Think. Or the big oyster jar, can it move up?

The alternation of images is annoying given we get squeezes. I recommend to go to more right side. Also move the locations around within sections a bit more to space them out and get less squeezes.

That depends only on screen size. On one of my deveices it works well enough; on the other (wider screen), although images appear opposite each other, there is a decent amount of text in between and it isn't an issue. We tend to be less worried about images being opposite each other nowadays because of the variety of screen resolutions and the difficulty in ensuring an article is "ideal" on all of them. - SchroCat (talk) 10:00, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

208.44.87.91 (talk) 03:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

TCO, I think you need to work on your approach a bit. Just saying "I sorta think it needs more work than the other two guys" is not calculated to appeal to the experienced FA writer who has gotten positive reviews of the article. Pride of authorship, conformation bias, call it what you will. I know you are the big iconoclast and all that, but surely you can do better than that? Yes, sometimes you have to go into the Big Cheese's office and tell him his pride and joy sucks, but I imagine you would not do so with bluntness where anything else would serve.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

At any rate, I've added a couple of images to have something in the early sections. The alternation of images is usual and is likely to attract adverse comment should we do vary too far from it. I think the length of the lede justified, a "History" article always includes more facts and so calls for a longer lede. I have , however, added some mention of the ponies as suggested, in the opening.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:09, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

TCO's comments here seen and mostly acted upon. I think this article needs to percolate a bit more so it won't be next up at FAC, I'll run two-cent piece which needs to get through because its 150th is next year.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:17, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments by SchroCat

Like TR, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this—very pleasant and enjoyable. Very few bits to pick up on something this well put together, but a couple of queries:

Colonial Chincoteague

• "[ mulatto]": Any reason for the space after the square bracket?

No, that's just a kludge. I want it linked and bracketed and if you put three brackets on either side of a word it won't link. Please feel free to fix.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:26, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Done – took a few attempts with different fixes, but the nowiki tags seem to work. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Well done, thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Misty and tourism

• "Chincoteague supplied few shellfish anymore": this feels a bit awkward to me, but I'm not sure why and I'm not sure how it could be improved! Feel free to ignore if you're happy with it.

It's a change of writing tone. I will play with it. The problem is "anymore".

A very pleasant read indeed—please drop me a note when you go to FAC. Pip pip – SchroCat (talk) 16:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Will do. I enjoyed writing this article. Thank you for reviewing it.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:26, 24 October 2013 (UTC)