Wikipedia:Peer review/Indonesia/archive3

Another peer review for the article. We feel that significant improvements have been made, although one crucial picture is still needed. The objective is still the same with the previous review, that we'd like to get FA promotion. The only difference is that the article now has received GA status. Thank you in advance. Imo eng 05:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re:"With a democratically elected parliament and president, Indonesia is considered the world's third largest democracy (after India and the United States)". Though that seems a fairly innocuous statement. I don't agree with having subjective statements about democracy in the lead of a nation article and I've been here many times before on other articles. Democracy is incommensurable, there are numerous forms and whether one is more democratic than another is a subjective analysis, the idea that one system is "a democracy" is not a neutral encyclopedic statement. All systems believe that they are democratic. It is more accurate and neutral to say that "Indonesia is a liberal democracy with an elected parliament and president" and leave it at that. Some people consider India, the United States and Indonesia to be "democracies", some people do not. Political scientists may describe them as liberal democracies or polyarchies, but not democracies. I recommend that be excised as an unwitting POV statement.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 05:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, i agree that in the lead it could be problematic. How about moving it down to the government section where the last 10 years of reforms are discussed, and re-word it to something like "Often said to be the world's..." or words to that effect? Merbabu 05:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Merbabu. That would be a good idea in my view. The "world's third largest democracy.." statement and similar seem to me to be shorthand media phrases rather than encyclopedic descriptions of political systems. I'm not adverse to "Indonesia is a liberal democracy with an elected parliament and president" being in the lead though. Even if Indonesia seems no more "liberal" and "democratic" than a medieval kingdom at times. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 05:57, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm now thinking about not having it at all. I agree it is really just a media phrase. lol - I'd say that the description of medieval is equally one-dimensional. ;-) But that's the problem with describing Indonesia - conventional definitions usually fail. thanks for the good input - i'd say the whole "worlds 3rd largest" thing is about to get the chop, but will wait for others.Merbabu 06:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source for the "Catholicism was first brought to Indonesia by early Portuguese.." paragraph? I know these general articles are a real pain to source but it would be necessary for the article to progress.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 06:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, can be found. I have a few Indonesian history books on hand - that have already been used in the article. How many refs do you want? he he. --Merbabu 06:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way Zleitzen, and others, please put the "citation needed" tags where needed. So it's easier, though more painful, to improve the article int terms of references. Thanks - Imo eng 06:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Will do.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 06:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at Cameroon, a featured article candidate, and Japan, a recent featured article to gauge any last minute formatting issues. I don't have a great eye for them and I can't see anything glaring, but it might be the case that the odd reference format and section layout needs tweaking. Also, take a look at the arguments made during the nomination process of those articles to see if there is anything you need to remedy.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 06:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's a very nice article, so congratulations. I've made a few copy-edits to the lede, and I'll finish off the rest of the article later today. Fine work! Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 07:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, we appreciate it. Imo eng 07:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've finished the copy-editing. Note to whoever wrote most of that: commas are not evil. The article seemed to suffer from a lack of them :) Please check this edit: the original was saying that the Constitution was amended four times in 1999, and 4 times in 2000, and 4 times in 2001, etc. I changed that so that the text now means what I think it was meant to mean in the first place, but am I wrong?

The one other recommendation I might make is to either reference, or cut, the last sentence of the lede. It looks rather like the proverbial worm that's been chopped in half by a spade, hanging off the end, unreferenced, looking very sad. I'd either cite that or cut it: at the moment it looks a bit too much like something you might find in a Daily Telegraph editorial. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 13:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I still haven't checked this for redundancy, per User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a. I guess that's next...Moreschi ^Talk 13:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re the last sentence, one could easily reference both halfs of that sentence, but I don't know about the combined point. I actually added that in the last few days. Poverty seems to be to be the overiding tragedy of Indonesia. As for Criterion 1a, i once checked the whole article closely, and improved it. A second exacting eye would also be most helpful. --Merbabu 13:36, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've marked a couple of unsourced statements in the history section. In this same section the sentence "Led by Major General Suharto, a violent anti-communist purge centered mainly in Java and Bali" seems to be incomplete. Changing "a" for "the" might be enough. As for the article as a whole, its quite long (90+k). It might be useful to condense some sections. IMHO, the Demographics section is way too long. For instance religion could be reduced to just the first paragraph, the rest (dealing with religious history) would be better left to the Religion in Indonesia article. Otherwise, it looks ok. --Victor12 19:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I filled in one citation tag and tinkered with the coup/communist coup section (i placed more citation tags which I will fill in those today or tomorrow). There are further tags that I should be able to deal with then as well.
Regarding trimming down the article, it's not overly excessive in comparison to FA countries (and it's not the longest). It is also one of the most highly referenced articles which would contribute to the kb figure you've cited. HOwever, I certainly agree there are quite a few areas (including 'religion') where 'fat' can be trimmed. I've started this process as reported in Talk:Indonesia and there are more areas that can be targetted - hopefully this can be done through better writing, rather than removing info. Many thanks for your useful comments. Merbabu 04:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've now chopped the 'Religion' section down by half, and the 'ethnic groups' a fair bit too. Merbabu 14:03, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, Ruhrfisch 03:33, 7 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]