Wikipedia:Peer review/Joe Lillard/archive1

Joe Lillard

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I want this article on a 1930s American football player to become a GA and would like to know what work it needs to meet the standards before nominating it. Prose comments and concerns about the reader's ability to understand the article are what I'm looking for in particular. I'll act on any comments that are given, and I would greatly appreciate them.

Thanks, Giants2008 (Talk) 16:21, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Sarastro
I'll review this over the next couple of days, and may do a little copy-editing if I get a chance. Just a few comments on the lead to begin with. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:00, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Lead

• "Along with Ray Kemp, Lillard was the last African American to play in the NFL until Kenny Washington and Woody Strode joined the Los Angeles Rams in 1946": Not sure the emphasis is right here. Maybe "Lillard was the last African American, along with Ray Kemp, to play in the NFL until 1946, when Kenny Washington and Woody Strode joined the Los Angeles Rams."
• "Nicknamed "The Midnight Express" by the media, he was responsible for almost half of the Cardinals' points in 1933.": I don't think these two parts of the sentence really fit together.
• "An orphan early in his life…": Unless he stopped being an orphan in later life (!), maybe "An orphan from an early age…"
• "attended Mason City High School before moving on to the University of Oregon"
• "before being ruled ineligible by the Pacific Coast Conference (PCC)": Maybe "before he was ruled…". And why was he ruled ineligible?
• "where his playing time declined late in the season": Declined not quite the right word. Maybe "but played less frequently towards the end of the season."
• "that featured a punt return": Link? A bit jargony compared to the rest of the lead.
• "However, he was ejected from two games that season for becoming involved in fights, and he was often baited into fighting by white opponents.": Maybe "However, he was ejected from two games that season for fighting, into which he was often baited by white opponents". Presumably there was a racial element here, which may be worth making explicit.
• "an unofficial color line": Never heard the expression color line before.
• "who he spent three years with": I always prefer "with whom he spent three seasons".
• "he became an appliance store employee before dying in 1978": Sounds like he got the job on his deathbed! Maybe "and died in 1978" or just have a short concluding sentence "He died in 1978". Sarastro1 (talk) 23:00, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
  • The first batch of comments you provided should be all done, except that I need to go and check the source for the baiting sentence to see if I can add something on the racial component. Thanks much. Giants2008 (Talk) 15:24, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Early life

• "his father had previously relocated": Are we being delicate here? Maybe better to say that his father left, and give a date if possible.
• The very next sentence says "after being orphaned", so had his father died as well? Or is this just because his father was not around, in which case I'm not sure orphaned is accurate.

College career

• "played for the school's freshman team in 1930. The following year, he appeared in two games for the varsity team": I'm assuming this was football, but given his ability in different sports, maybe worth making that clear.
• "but for driving the team": Just checking; driving as in transporting?
• "Before Oregon's next game, against Washington, Lillard was briefly suspended by the PCC, as he had reportedly played semi-professional baseball for the Gilkerson Colored Giants": Presumably this broke some kind of all-amateur rule from the time, but this should be explained as modern readers may not understand this idea. Also, maybe reword as "Suspected of breaking [whatever rule] by playing semi-professional baseball for the Gilkerson Colored Giants, Lillard was briefly suspended by the PCC before Oregon's next game." (The Washington thing is a distraction from the main point of this sentence; the later detail on the game could establish that it was their next game)
• "The decision was overturned, as the original protest had taken place too close to an intraconference game.": What is the significance of this?
• "Before Oregon's next game against USC, Lillard was ruled ineligible by the Pacific Coast Conference as a result of playing with the Gilkerson baseball team": Why?
• "offensive production": Jargony?
• "Lillard dropped out of the university afterward": Just checking: in BrEng, this should be afterwards.
• Why did he drop out?

Professional American football career

• "Lillard participated in a professional all-star game on November 26, 1931": This suggests he was a star, which seems surprising as he had only played 2 college games.
• "Lillard's performance was praised by the Chicago Defender": Maybe "in" rather than "by", but an author would be better if known.
• "Lillard's playing time declined": Does this mean that he played less minutes in a game (which I would guess from the phrasing), and if so, why? Or does it just mean, as stated in the following sentence, that he was not picked as often?
• "Rushing yards": Link? (or you could explain it in full! Maybe not...)
• "pass completions in 28 tries": More links needed I think.
• "Lillard was a backup in 1933, although he was one of the Cardinals' leading players.": Do we need "a"? And this is ambiguous. Was he a leading player because of his performance on his rare appearances? Or is this saying that even though he was a leading player, he was not picked?
• "The Cardinals' third game of the season, against the Cincinnati Reds, saw..." I'm not a fan of that "saw" construction.
• "After the kick, Lillard was punched by Cincinnati guard Lester Caywood; he responded with a punch to Caywood's head, and was thrown out of the game": Was Caywood? Worth making explicit either way.
• Punt/punt return is linked in the lead, but not main body. Not sure if that is deliberate or not.
• "During his time in the NFL, Lillard was frequently baited into fighting by opposing white players": Specifying the players' race suggests that there was a racial element, and this is worth making explicit if possible.
• "During the latter part of the 1932 season, "Lillard's teammates had stopped blocking for him," according to Coyle.": I'm not sure I follow this.
• Sort of related, how did his team's fans and players react to him as a black player?
• "he ran for 494 yards in 171 rushing attempts": Getting a bit jargony here; I have an image of the poor guy just running up and down non-stop!
• "The Cardinals' decision was criticized as racially motivated by African American publications.": I think the focus is lost a bit here. Maybe move his career stats to the end of the paragraph after the implications of his release.

Other sports

• "did not record a decision": Although decision is linked, this is still a bit jargony.

Later life

• "Lillard had a stroke and was afflicted with agnosia as a result": When?
• Legacy seems a little light. Has no-one commented on his significance? Had other black players appeared before 1933, or was he the first? Anything worth adding on the color line?

General

• Possibly unavoidable, but this seems a little stats heavy, with little on critical reception or on personal incidents or flavour. What made him tick? How did he feel about the color line? How did other players rate him? How good was he? Would he have made a big name for himself had he been allowed to play on? How much was the end of his career about him and how much about his colour? Anything that could make it less number-driven would be good, but I appreciate this may not be possible. And maybe a bit more on the race issues would add some context and background. Otherwise, looking good and solid. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Took me longer than I would have liked, but I finally got around to addressing as many of the points raised above as I could. There are a few things I couldn't do well, which are the following:
    • I never found anything to support that the baiting was racially motivated, even though it seems obvious to me. It's probably one of those things that is an unstated assumption which becomes OR if it becomes inserted. I'll keep an eye out for any new sources that make things clearer.
    • For the driving comment, it does mean transportation.
    • The amateurism rules are now somewhat explained, to the extent that the sources make possible. They unfortunately give minimal descriptions of the rules themselves.
    • For "Lillard was a backup", the "a" is needed for the grammar to be correct.
    • Not too much exists on what fellow players and fans thought of him, although I was at least able to source the fact that we don't know how his teammates handled his presence.
    • While I was able to add some background on how many black players were in the NFL before Lillard joined the league, there wasn't much that could be added in the way of flavor, other than a couple of skill-related sentences. It seems that Lillard is a mostly forgotten figure, and there aren't too many sources with details on his life. Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to review this article. It is much stronger because of your efforts. Giants2008 (Talk) 15:31, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Drive-by comment It's great to see articles like this improved to a high standard. You might consider adding a little more context on the history of race in NFL. Specifically, I think it's worth discussing the gentleman's agreement spearheaded by Redskins owner George Preston Marshall that kept black players out of the league until the late 1940s. I can provide some sources on this if you need them. I'm not talking about creating a new section or anything; just a sentence or two would do it. --Batard0 (talk) 09:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I added a couple of sentences on this, thanks to a source that Batard provided to me. Thanks again for that. Giants2008 (Talk) 12:48, 22 October 2012 (UTC)