Wikipedia:Peer review/John Barbirolli/archive1

John Barbirolli

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I should like to get it up to at least Good Article standard, and have now gone about as far with it as I feel able without the views and suggestions of other interested Wikipedians. One kind contributor has gone through it informally for me, and input from others would now be greatly welcomed.

Thanks, Tim riley (talk) 12:58, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Jonyungk comments

Overall, this is a well done article that reads clearly and presents its subject in an objective and comprehensive light, and I would eventually like to see it grace FAC. The points that I have are minor and, in at least one case, may be subjective.

• At the beginning of the article, you mention the names of operas without mentioning they are operas or, in one case, mentioning the composer ("his 1967 Madama Butterfly" instead of "his 1967 recording of Puccini's opera Madama Butterfly" in the lead section). Although this practice allows the prose to read more cleanly, what do I do if I don't know the works being mentioned and am not familiar to opera? (Use the link, some might argue.) I realize this is a subjective point, and my bringing it up might have some argue that there are limits to spoon feeding people information, but articles are supposed to be autonomous and readers not familiar with classical music should be taken into consideration.

Point taken. I've added "Puccini" before "Butterfly", and made sure "opera" is mentioned in close proximity to any operatic title.

Early Years

• Should "pit" in the opening paragraph be "orchestra pit"?

I've changed this to "orchestra" tout court.

• The following year, he won a scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, which he attended from 1912 to 1916, studying harmony, counterpoint and theory under Dr J B McEwen, and the cello with Herbert Walenn.[7] Should the last part of this sentence read "... and cello with ..."?

This is a difference of UK and U.S. usage. UK idiom calls for the definite article.

• During World War I, though too young to serve at the front, he became a lance-corporal in the Suffolk Regiment.[7] This is the beginning of a new paragraph, so "Barbirolli" instead of "he"?

Done

• Same with While in the army, he adopted the anglicised form of his first name for the sake of simplicity ...

Done

• ... under the baton of Elgar ... Sounds a little stilted. Would this read better as "under Elgar's baton" or "under the composer's baton"?

Done

First conducting posts

• Barbirolli had never conducted a chorus or a large orchestra, but felt confident that he could cope,[10]... Isn't "he could cope" a little informal for an encyclopedia?

Right-ho. I've changed it to "...but had the confidence to accept."

• In 1927, deputising at short notice for Sir Thomas Beecham, he conducted the London Symphony Orchestra in a performance of Elgar's Symphony No. 2, winning praise from the composer and from Pablo Casals, whom Barbirolli had accompanied in Haydn's D major cello concerto at the same concert.[7][24] A little convoluted as one sentence. Would it be better split into two?

Done.

• Although he later came to love Maher's music, in the 1930s he thought it sounded thin.[27] We've had a lot of "he"s since the beginning of this paragraph. How about "Although Barbirolli later came to love ..."?

Done

• In 1933 he was invited to become conductor of the Scottish Orchestra. New paragraph, so "Barbirolli" instead of "he".

Done

• Barbirolli remained with the Scottish Orchestra for three seasons ... I know it's not incorrect grammatically, but "for three" sounds odd, as though you have two numbers next to each other. Do you really need "for"?

I think this is another case of U.S. -v- UK usage. To an English eye "remained with the Scottish Orchestra three seasons" would seem strange' I'd say.

• Notwithstanding the favourable opinions, it caused a sensation in 1936 when it was announced that he had been invited to conduct the New York Philharmonic Orchestra in succession to Arturo Toscanini.[1] Two points. First, the phrasing sounds a little awkward—maybe the use of passive tense. Second, why did Barbirolli's invitation cause a sensation? A brief explanation would be good here.

Yes indeed. I've redrafted as you suggest. A decided improvement.

New York Philharmonic

• He also performed Serge Koussevitzky's Double Bass Concerto. Was Barbirolli the soloist? Coming as this sentence does right after the works he conducted, it's a little confusing. Maybe "He also appeared as soloist in ..."

Mea culpa! How blind one is to ambiguities in one's own prose. JB conducted. I have redrafted accordingly.

• He gave the world premières of Walton's second Façade Suite,[32] and Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and Violin Concerto, and introduced pieces by Jacques Ibert, Eugene Goossens, and Arthur Bliss and by many American composers including Samuel Barber, Deems Taylor and Daniel Gregory Mason. This sentence feels a little long and rangy with all the "and"s. What about using a semi-colon and a different modifier: "He gave the world premières of Walton's second Façade Suite,[32] and Britten's Sinfonia da Requiem and Violin Concerto; he also introduced pieces by Jacques Ibert, Eugene Goossens, and Arthur Bliss as well as works by many American composers including Samuel Barber, Deems Taylor and Daniel Gregory Mason."

Good. Done.

• Barbirolli had also to cope with "a rough press campaign ... Would "Barbirolli also had to cope" sound a little smoother?

It would indeed. Done.

• Downes, and the critic and part-time composer Virgil Thompson ..." I'd drop "part-time"—either you are or are nor a composer. You could even say, "... and the composer Virgil Thompson ..."

Drat! Caught in the act! I was hoping to smuggle in a dig at Thompson, though I didn't think I'd get away with it. I have redrafted as suggested.

• His first reason for leaving New York ... New paragraph, so "Barbirolli's".

Done

• Link or redlink "Petrillo" and use his first name in brackets.

When adding this quote I wondered whether to replace the phrase in question with elliptical dots, and on reflection I think it would be better to do so, thus avoiding a link of – at best – tangential relevance. I don't think the dots spoil the flow of the quotation.

• The second reason ... It's been a long time since mention his first reason. What about "His second reason for leaving New York", or, if this seems too redundant, "His second reason"?

Indeed. Done.

• The orchestra was in danger of extinction,... You mention why later, but would a brief reference here be good?

It would. Done.

Hallé Orchestra

• Barbirolli's plane landed safely: Howard's was shot down.[10] Semi-colon instead of colon.

Quite right! Done.

• This is just a side note, but is there any mention of the Hallé's recording of Bax's Third Symphony, recorded during the orchestra's first years with Barbirolli? If I remember correctly, this was considered a benchmark recording of the work, as well as its first, so maybe a brief mention of it with review comments, if available, would fit here.

I'll look into this. Mention of Bax reminds me that I am fairly sure I have read that there is at least one Bax piece dedicated to JB. I'll enquire further into this.

The discography at the back of Michael Kennedy's biography shows (p. 362) that the Bax 3 was JB's first recording with the Hallé, made on 31 December 1943. I've added to the article.

• Barbirolli received invitations to take up ... The chronology of this paragraph is confusing, which makes the prose hard to follow. What about moving the mention of the Royal Opera house to the second sentence of the paragraph, so that the section reads like this: "Barbirolli received invitations to take up more prestigious and lucrative conductorships.[4] In the early 1950s he had appeared occasionally in opera houses, conducting Turandot, Aida, Orfeo ed Euridice, Tristan and Isolde, La bohème and Madama Butterfly at the Royal Opera House, 1951–53.[37] The head of the Royal Opera House, David Webster, wanted him to become the musical director there, but Barbirolli declined to be deflected from the Hallé.[38] His biographer Charles Reid wrote, "His Manchester kingdom is a kingdom indeed. He is not manacled or chivied in his choice of programmes. Broadly speaking he conducts only what he loves ... His kingdom approximates to a conductor's paradise." Nevertheless, in 1958, after building the orchestra up and touring continually, conducting up to 75 concerts a year, he arranged a less onerous schedule, allowing him more time to appear as a guest conductor with other orchestras.[36] At this time Barbirolli worked at the Vienna Staatsoper[2] and the Rome Opera House, where he conducted Aida in 1969.[39] In 1960 he accepted an invitation to succeed Leopold Stokowski as chief conductor of the Houston Symphony in Texas, a post he held until 1967, conducting an annual total of 12 weeks there in early spring and late autumn between Hallé engagements.[40] Also in 1961 he began a regular association with the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, which lasted for the rest of his life.[36]"

Thank you for this. It is a definite improvement, which I have gratefully adopted.

• In 1968, after twenty-five years with the Hallé, Barbirolli was appointed Conductor Laureate for life.[1] Isn't Conductor Laureate a lifetime position? Sounds redundant.

I'm not sure, but have pruned anyway, as the shorter version stands happily on its own.

Repertoire and recordings

• Extra points for the cool composite image of composers at the head of this section, and for the one of artists below that.

Thank you very much! I stole the idea from your Tchaikovsky articles. At your service if I can be of help with any such in the future.

• His repertoire was not as wide ... New paragraph: "Barbirolli's".

Done.

• Many of Barbirolli's pre-war recordings for HMV were concertos. Do you mean "were of concertos"?

Indeed. Done.

Honours, awards and legacy

• This section reads well. No further comments.

Family

• His second marriage from 1939 to his death was ... A minor point: You use commas to bracket the dates in Barbirolli's first marriage ("... marriage, in 1931, was ...") but not with the second marriage. It would be nice to be consistent.

This was left from a previous editor's contribution, which I failed to proof-read carefully enough. Thank you for spotting it.

• Was Barbirolli's first marriage in 1931 or 1932? The New Grove lists it as 1932; you have 1931.

Another legacy that I ought to have spotted. The date was 18 June 1932. Very grateful for your picking this up.

• There were no children of either marriage.[4] Should this read "from either marriage"?

This is standard UK obituary-speak (a touch old-fashioned and pompous, but I am in no position to object on those grounds).

Hope these comments help. As mentioned earlier, this is overall a first-rate job. Jonyungk (talk) 23:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

These comments do indeed help – tremendously. I am greatly obliged for them and have acted on them all, except for the ones that are just UK -v- U.S. usage. Very many thanks, Jonyungk. – Tim riley (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: I have struggled a bit during the last week, but here are some comments on the Early years section. I will do my best to add more as soon as I can:-

• Early years
  • Some clarification needed re Barbirolli's schooling. "His education at St Clement Danes Grammar School overlapped, from 1910, with his scholarship at Trinity College of Music". Did he attend the two at the same time? How did he manage that?
    • Kennedy's authorised biography doesn't throw any light on this point (the relevant pages are 26–30) The same author's ODBN article about JB says just, "He was educated at St Clement Danes Grammar School and, at the same time, from 1910, was a scholar at Trinity College of Music." As (i) Barbirolli himself (interview with Alan Blyth in The Gramophone, December 1969 p. 34) said "I left school at 14 — an excellent finishing age, I think, unless you're going into medicine, the Law or the Church," and (ii) all sources are agreed that he was at Trinity College from 1910, I don't think there can be much doubt that he attended both the grammar school and the college between 1910 and 1914 – but no source that I can find explains quite how he managed it.
  • Tiny format point: references should be in sequence, e.g. [1][6] not [6][1]. Check for other instances.
    • Good - thank you: I'll do so.
  • There is a tendency to overuse commas, for example in the sentence: "The following year, he won a scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, which he attended from 1912 to 1916, studying harmony, counterpoint and theory under Dr J B McEwen, and the cello with Herbert Walenn." Personally I would delete the commas after "year" and "1916". I know comma usage is often a matter of personal choice and style, but prose flow is important, and a general comma audit might be worthwhile.
    • Quite so. It's all too easy to overdo the commas, and I'll institute a purge.
  • "and by 1916" → "and in 1916"
    • Not quite the nuance I was aiming at, but I'll change it.
  • The phrase "his regular partner Ethel Bartlett" has a different nuance in 2010...Perhaps she should be called his regular playing partner?
    • Ahem! Quite so.
  • The Ethel Bartlett sentence, incidentally, has three "ands" in it. Needs breaking up, or rephrasing.
    • Good - just the sort of thing one never spots when checking one's own prose. Will do.
  • "During World War I, though too young to serve at the front, Barbirolli became a lance-corporal in the Suffolk Regiment." It would be best to mention, first, that he joined the army. Thus: "During World War I Barbirolli enlisted in the army and, though too young to serve at the front, became a lance-corporal in the Suffolk Regiment." (Also, why was he too young? My grandfather, born 1900, served in France in 1918)
    • First point: will do. Second point: I don't know. The statement is taken from an article in The Gramophone in 1929. I suppose that publication was not and is not an authority on military rules of the First World War. I'll delete the age reference, as it is not crucial to the section of the article.
  • Perhaps "back-desk" is a bit jargonistic for non-musical readers?
    • I wondered that when writing it, but couldn't think of a satisfactory alternative. Would "rank and file" do the job, do you think?

More to come. Brianboulton (talk) 11:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Greatly obliged for what you've added so far, and looking forward to more when you can fit it in. Tim riley (talk) 17:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's the rest:-

• First conducting posts (I have made a few minor tweaks)
  • Turandot is listed, and linked, twice in the list of opera performances. The second mention refers to an English-language performance, but the sentence still reads oddly. It might be possible to get round this by inserting in the list thus: "...Lohengrin, Turandot (with the first performances in English), La bohème..." etc and finishing the sentence on Il trovatore.
    • First mention of Turandot removed. I think the second ref, including "1st perf in English" comment probably sits all right at the end of the list.
  • "He conducted the Royal Philharmonic Society's concert at which Ralph Vaughan Williams was presented with the society's Gold Medal..." Suggest "a Royal Philharmonic Society concert" ("the" suggest that there is only one RPS concert).
    • Indeed. Done.
  • It seems to me that there is a logical paragraph break after the reference to Mahler's music sounding thin. The rest of the paragraph goes better with the final paragraph - I've tried it. See what you think.
    • So it does. Thank you! Done.
  • "full-time permanent" - are both these adjectives necessary? I imagine one would do.
    • I have dithered over this, but have pruned as suggested.
• New York Philharmonic
  • "The management of the orchestra nevertheless renewed Barbirolli's appointment in 1940, but by 1942 he had decided against any further renewal of the contract, if it were offered." Citation necessary.
    • Now expanded and referenced.
  • Link are not normally given in quotes, and I wonder about the need for some of these anyway - Churchill, Northern Ireland, U-boats.
    • Pruned accordingly.
• Halle Orchestra
  • "This had been mutually beneficial in the years of the depression, but spurred by the success of the Hallé's former guest conductor Malcolm Sargent in transforming the Liverpool Philharmonic into a full-time, permanent orchestra, the Hallé board had now resolved that its orchestra must follow suit." I am looking for ways in which this rather long, multi-clause sentence cn be simplified, perhaps split. Suggestion: "This had been mutually beneficial in the years of the depression. However, the Hallé board had now resolved that its orchestra must follow the example of the Liverpool Philharmonic, which had been transformed by the Hallé's former guest conductor Malcolm Sargent into a full-time, permanent orchestra." For consideration.
    • Much better - thank you. Done.
  • Perhaps, rather than "the shared players", you should specify "the Northern Orchestra players"?
    • I've changed it to "the players shared with the BBC".
  • I've not heard the word "trainer" used in this context before (I'm trying to block the image of Barbirolli in a tracksuit blowing a whistle). If this is common usage, fine, but "teacher" seems more appropriate. But anyway, isn't the sentence rather out of the chronology - we've suddenly jumped from Barbirolli's assuming control in the 1940s to the 1960s.
    • JB adored cricket and was deeply knowledgeable about it, but I don't think he donned a tracksuit much, if at all. I have expanded and recast this part of the section, making the inclusion of the RAM sentence more integrated (I hope).
  • "...a tour of the U.S." I think "United States" should be spelt out.
    • I find that my frequent American Wiki-colleague feels quite strongly to the contrary on this point. I have altered the first U.S. to United States, but left the later ones unchanged.
  • "twenty-five years" - other values have been given numerically.
    • Indeed. Thank you. Done.
• Repertoire and recordings
  • There is a tendency in this section to use long verbatim quotations. The second paragraph ends with one from an anonymous contributor to the EMI Classics site. Since the prose is unexceptionable, and can't be attributed, it would be better if this quote was paraphrased. Paragraph 3 ends with an even longer quote, attributed to David Bicknell, but again this should be largely paraphrased, with just the odd memorable wording enclosed in quotes, e.g. the description of Barbirolli as a "treasure".
    • Done.
  • Does the word "prove", immediately before the Kennedy quote, actually belong within the quote? It reads as though it does.
    • Slight problem of syntax here: the original quote reads, "The issue by the Barbirolli Society since his death of transfers to CD of recordings he made in New York proves that the orchestra played superbly for him and that the criticism of him was largely unjustified." I have now embraced the "prove" into my quote even though it was "proves" in the original. Is this within the bounds of transcriber's licence?
  • "U.S." again, full name preferred.
    • As above.
  • "In 1962, EMI records persuaded Barbirolli to return to them." It's not clear when he was actually with them, before this return.
    • HMV is part of EMI, a distinction I omitted to make clear. I have changed to HMV throughout, as that was always the EMI label for which JB recorded.
  • A "Sibelius cycle" is presumably a Sibelius symphony cycle.
    • It is. Done.
• Honours, awards and legacy
  • The inclusion of "legacy" in the heading of this short section is slightly misleading, since one would expect it to deal with Barbirolli's musical legacy rather than bricks and mortar. The musical legacy has been amply dealt with in the earlier sections; I suggest, therefore, you alter the word "legacy" to "memorials".
    • Good point. Done.
  • "...of which Barbirolli was a student" → "at which Barbirolli was a student" (student "of" a discipline, student "at" an institution)
    • Thank you - done.

Final note: "Virgil Thompson" links to a disambiguation page (there were two Virgil Thompsons, apparently).

quandoque dormitat Homerus (though that's Horace, not Virgil) – the chap's name was "Virgil Thomson" not "Virgil Thompson", and the dodgy link was entirely my fault. Now mended.

Also, alt text is required on all images.

Done.

That is it, apart from my bits of copyediting which you should review. In my opinion this has more the stamp of FAC than GA, but please let me know where you decide to send it. Brianboulton (talk) 13:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Excellent stuff! Thank you so much. I'll go through point by point over the weekend. Very much obliged for this. – Tim riley (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Later: all above suggestions reviewed, and (apart from U.S. -v- United States) all acted upon. I am exceedingly grateful for your review – thank you so much. I note what you say about FAC -v- GA and will ponder. – Tim riley (talk) 12:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)