Wikipedia:Peer review/Keith Moon/archive1

Keith Moon

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
Keith Moon got to GA status in April, and it was remarked at the GA review that the article was a prime featured article candidate when the time was right. With that in mind, I'm putting it up for a peer review to make sure it has the best chance of getting through. Every source that I think has any possibility of being suspicious has been tagged, and I believe most can be replaced. Some editors have been continuously copyediting and generally improving the prose since it passed the GA review. What have we got left to do to get it to FAC?

Thanks, Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:11, 28 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review from Cliftonian

This looks to be a very good article on one of my personal favourites (though I still prefer Bonham). I'll make comments as I read through. I've done a few copy-edits, feel free to revert these if you don't like

Lead

We mention in the first paragraph his unique drumming style and the fact that it attracts praise, but we don't actually say what this style is. Just one or two words would do here I think

Done. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We say in the infobox and the body that Wembley is in Middlesex but in the lead we say it's in London. I am aware of the situation regarding ceremonial and modern counties in England etc and so know why there is ambiguity here. Perhaps we can comprise on "Wembley, Middlesex, a north-western suburb of London" or something like that

I'm going to go with "Wembley, London" because that's what's in reliable sources - try a google books search for "Keith Moon Wembley London" versus "Keith Moon Wembley Middlesex"! Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:59, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

"in Central Middlesex Hospital"—shouldn't this be "at Central Middlesex Hospital"?

Done Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Do we really need to mention that his father Alfred was nicknamed "Alf"?

It appears in sources - [1] [2] Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe mention what The Goon Show was.

Added "radio series" Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 07:40, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"one thing that could hold his attention was music". We've just said the Goons could hold his attention

Replaced with "and for music". We know he was interested in music but no more

"Moon failed his eleven plus exam and went to Alperton Secondary Modern School" Did failing the 11-plus cause him to go to Alperton? This wording could imply that.

I've expanded on this a bit, mainly for the benefit of non British readers who don't understand what the tripartite system was. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 07:40, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"but traded his position to be a drummer" Do we know how long it took him to switch bugling for drumming?

I don't think it's in any source, other than he quickly switched to drums. I'll keep looking. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"in Easter 1961" shouldn't that be "at Easter 1961"? or even "around Easter 1961"? Maybe mention he was only 14 at the time.

Changed to "around Easter 1961" 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

"which led to a job repairing radios. This enabled him to buy his first drum kit" The job itself didn't, the money he earned from it did. Maybe alter this slightly to "Money saved from this salary enabled him ..." or something

Changed to "he used money from his job". Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 07:40, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Career—Early years

"Moon's favourite musicians were jazz artists, particularly the flamboyant style of Gene Krupa" This wording impies that Krupa's style was itself a jazz artist.

Reworded Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"As well as drumming, Moon was interested in singing, particularly with backing vocals that involved a light-sounding falsetto and the vocal styling of Motown soul music" I think we need to remove the word "with" before "backing vocals"

Copyedited this down a bit Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have "the Beach Boys" but "The Who", "The Beachcombers" etc. Shouldn't it be "The Beach Boys"?

Fixed. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"he auditioned for The Who, replacing Doug Sandom" should probably be "hoping to replace Doug Sandom"

According to Fletcher, Sandom had already left by the time Moon arrived. Reworded this accordingly.

Career—The Who

"commonly heard" maybe "commonly recounted"

I've gone with "commonly cited"

"when asked how he joined the band" should probably be "when asked how he had joined the band"

Done Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"His style of playing affected the musical structure" Whose? It isn't clear from the last sentence we are talking about Moon.

Reworded this bit. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:48, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Antics like these earned him the nicknames "Moon the Loon" and "Mad Moon"." We need a source here

Can't find "Mad Moon" but you can certainly have a source for "Moon the Loon". Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have "The Beach Boys" here again

I think this has been fixed

Other work

"session man The Who's Nicky Hopkins" what?

This wasn't in the version that passed GA - Jb423 (talk · contribs) added this here. Not sure whether it's good faith or vandlism (the user has a track record of leaving personal attacks on user talk pages), but in any case it's wrong. I've replaced with "pianist Nicky Hopkins". Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:05, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Page remembered Moon's odd expression and later adopted it as the name of a new band" But we've just said in the last sentence that it might have been Entwistle who said it?

Replaced with "the" Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Smash Your Head Against the Wall should be in italics

Fixed Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"claiming it helped distance the album from the familiar sound of The Who". "claiming" is an odd word to use here, maybe "writing" or "opining"

I've gone with "saying" - important thing here is to state it's just one man's opinion. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Destructive behaviour

The two big quote boxes here are kind of intrusive and distracting. I think the stories would be better integrated into the text itself.

Agreed. The second one is duplicated in the prose, and copies a little bit too much directly from Fletcher's source to the extent it's a borderline copyvio. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 10:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"a local drummer in the audience" But Halpin was from Iowa, from California. Maybe "an American drummer in the audience"

"A drummer in the audience" will do. Halpin is only relevant in the context of Moon's life of being an emergency dep. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:12, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life and relationships

I think the quote box under "Friends" would be better in the text itself

To be honest, this is a caption looking for a picture. I'd quite like to have a montage of this, this, this, this and / or this, but none of them are free images so it can't happen. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:39, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Death

Make clear that this is in London

Done Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"NOT TO BE TAKEN AWAY" this should be in smallcaps

Looks like somebody else did this. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"with the digestion of six being sufficient to cause his death, and the other 26 of which were still undissolved when he died" maybe "with the digestion of six being sufficient to cause his death; the other 26 were still undissolved when he died"

Fixed Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Small Faces/Faces drummer Kenney Jones became an official member of The Who" When?

November 1978 (and sourced) Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"joined the live band as an unofficial member." no source. Also when?

Sourced. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Jones left The Who following their performance at Live Aid and drummer Simon Phillips toured with the band in 1989 as an unofficial member. Today, the Who's drummer is Zak Starkey, son of Ringo Starr. Starkey learned to drum from Moon, whom he called "Uncle Keith"." No source for any of this

How did that last one slip past the GA review? Sourced (and some of it was factually incorrect according to the sources)!

Referencing

I am not sure about some of the sources here; particularly WhoTabs, Mess and noise, Modculture, Contact music

Couldn't agree more about Mess and noise, which is why I tagged it as {{better source}}. I left it because I assumed it can be replaced with Fletcher's book
Contact music has a few appearances in WP:RSN and as far as I can tell is a news aggregator of other sites and the consensus is "proceed with caution". I have found the same anecdote in an online edition of New Musical Express and used that, though the quotations were wrong.
In my view, the modculture article is a primary source, that provides a few additional quotes and anecdotes from Dougal Butler. A substantial chunk of the article's content is also found in more reliable sources (see Butler's own article for a wider range of sources on this subject), so I could perhaps make a convincing argument for Butler being an expert on Moon, the article only citing himself and a dead person, and hence coming under the "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter" proviso of WP:SPS. What do you think?
WhoTabs is an awkward one. If I recall correctly, we let it pass an an "expert" source at the GA review, but both of us remarked it would probably fail at FAC. It's the only decent source I can find for technical information on Moon's drumkits. I think our options are to find better sources (back issues of NME or Melody Maker from the 1960s would be suitable), or conclude that the spec of Moon's 1966 Premier double-bass kit just isn't that important in the field of all human knowledge. I'll get back to you. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 08:52, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Some references need formatting work (for example New Musical Express is a work, not a publisher)

I left a number of these until now, hoping most of not all could be ultimately converted to {{sfn}} or {{sfnp}}, but I don't think that's practical. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 08:54, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ending the article

I think a good way to end the article might be to move the London 2012 story to the end of the "Legacy" section.

Possibly - though possibly a better way is to pull a quote out of another news article talking about his blue plaque and why he deserves one. I'd rather the article ended by saying how people still remember his life even today, rather than a dark (if humourous) reminder that he's dead. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 08:52, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I hope all these help on the way, and well done again so far. —Cliftonian (talk) 07:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm a little busy over the weekend, but I'll do what I can. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 08:52, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry it took me a while to come back. Most of the above looks good, there are just some places throughout the article where we need citations (look for ends of paragraphs with no references). —Cliftonian (talk) 05:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've tagged those with {{cn}}, or found good sources. I think all of them can be easily cited to Fletcher, but I don't know where my copy has gone. As soon as I can dig it out, I can fix that. References also need a general going over. I'll leave the PR open for a while longer to see if anyone else wants to comment. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:27, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Update

I think I've done everything I want to do with this now. Every paragraph is sourced, all sources have been checked and justified, news sources should be cited correctly and I've copyedited everything again. I'll leave it open for a few more days, but if nobody else makes any more edits in that timeframe, I'm going to look about closing the review down and taking it to FAC. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:15, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll help out at FAC as well. Well done so far —Cliftonian (talk) 11:24, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By "help out", do you mean be a co-nom or do you just want to chip in for comments. I've ordered new copies of Marsh and Fletcher's books as the copies I used to get to GA might have been accidentally left somewhere and now stuck in someone's lost property. :-/ Still, it was only 7 quid. I think I will need to call on them during the FA review. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 17:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I meant just chip in; I don't feel I've really contributed enough to justify a co-nom but if you want me to help out that way I am happy to do so. Good luck in getting new copies of the books—this stuff happens sometimes. I was dumb enough to lend a Rhodesian book to a friend here in the army to read while he spent a week confined to barracks, and it inevitably somehow went missing during that week. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:46, 12 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]