Wikipedia:Peer review/Maynard James Keenan/archive1

Maynard James Keenan

This peer review discussion has been closed.

I've listed this article for peer review because we (Wikiproject Tool) would like to bring this article to Featured status. In about three weeks, we've greatly expanded the article, which had four references. It's been totally restructured, a great deal of information added and now has 70 references.

Thanks, Lara❤Love 05:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC) Relisted. Lara❤Love 05:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

dihydrogen monoxide

Not in mood for prose now...but some other things that I can see.

• Perhaps split lead's 2nd para into one on music career and one on other stuff

  Hmm. It's in chronological order now. I don't know. I'll talk to others about it. Someone else wrote that lead.

• Is toolshed.down.net a reliable source? Appears a few times (aka. The Tool Page.)

  It's the official fan page, acceptable usage for the FA Tool (band). Transcriptions are from print magazines.

• What about SeaOfTranqulity.org?

  Formerly a print magazine, acceptable usage for the FA Genesis (band).

  Might wanna just use the magazine's title then. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 00:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• SundayObserver.ik

  Hmm. Produced by Lake House Copyright © 2006 The Associated Newspapers of Ceylon Ltd. No good?

  I'm not buying it, but I may be wrong... dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 00:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• Ref 20 needs dates wlinked

  How do I format that?

  [1]. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 00:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• Some refs use All Music Guide, some Allmusic. Be consistent
• Is it necessary to say "(fee required)"? I'm not sure...

  I think this is customary, so people who know they're not going to pay don't waste their time.

• cdicarlo.com RS?

  Damn, I thought there was an interview exemption on RS. I'll have to look deeper into that. Noticed it's dead tho, so for myself: [2].

  They've been a lot more strict on RS of late, and there isn't an interview exemption. :( dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 00:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• Ref 74; what's the publisher?

Yeah, might do some prose stuff later if you want me to. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 09:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Any help is welcome. I struck those things I fixed, commented on others. I'll look into those unresolved. Much appreciation. If you have time to look at the prose, that'd be great. Lara❤Love 16:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll try and get to prose at some stage before the FAC (but don't wait for me if you're feeling confident). dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 00:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, the prose is mostly teh shiz. And that's good. I'd support at FAC. But since I'm here.

• Infobox: is Puscifer.com his *official* (#1) website?
• "after a few airings" - ambiguous weasel wording? Or do I just suck?
• Tell you what, if I listen to Tool, you listen to Powderfinger
• "Keenan performing with Tool at Ruisrock 2006." - this image would probably work better a bit lower, where you talk about the 2006 album
• Billboard (eg. Billboard 200) must always be in italics
• The quote in the A Perfect Circle section talks about Tool...? (nice quote though)
• 1st EL isn't necessary, is it?
• And is the 2nd?

dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 03:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

Hey Lara, nice article, my comments...

• Rock music is linked twice in the lead.
• Two dead links when I checked this.

  zOMG, what a cool tool! Goes to add to cool tool list...

• Ref [1] is used four times in a row in the space of one and a bit paras, a little over the top?

  Someone fact tag bombed it at one point. I agree with you and have trimmed to once per para.

• "During the 1980s, Keenan played bass guitar for TexA.N.S. and sang for Children of the Anachronistic Dynasty, both independent bands." isn't cited.
• Caption for the image in the Comedy section is a little long...!

Not much more to add at this point, perhaps it's time for FAC? The Rambling Man (talk) 15:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, TRM. FAC is next week! I'm excited! This will be the first article I've written a good portion of that I'll be taking for FA. Lara❤Love 16:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Casliber

Moved from Talk:Maynard James Keenan

Righty-ho then, let's get to it.....Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• When Keenan was eleven, his mother suffered a paralyzing cerebral aneurysm[1] which would later serve as the inspiration for many of his creative works. - rather than using "paralyzing" as an adjective, which sounds odd to me, I'd recommend: "When Keenan was eleven, his mother suffered a cerebral aneurysm which left her paralyzed (extent and duration can be clarified here); this would later serve as the inspiration for many of his creative works."

• In the Early life section, I'd probably rephrase as follows:

"James Keenan was born in Ravenna, Ohio on April 17, 1964, the only child of Baptist parents (insert names of parents, and dads occupation, here). His parents divorced in 1973 and his father subsequently moved to Michigan. Keenan would only see him about once per year over the next twelve years, .[1] His mother (length of time afterwards?) remarried (who? occupation?). However, his new step-family (father?) was intolerant and abusive. (this really needs to be clarified/embellished/explained)

We don't have his father's name. We also don't know how long between his father leaving and his mother remarrying, who she married or what he did occupationally. Maynard is not very open about anything in his life, particularly his childhood. It's not something he likes to talk about. What little we do know is that he was abused by his stepfather and he has referred to him as "intolerant". I'll look back over the sources, but IIRC, Maynard drew a simple picture using the descriptive words we've used in the article. This will be for tomorrow, however, as it's 3:11am right now. Lara❤Love 07:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• I linked sobriquet as I was not familiar with the word, then thought, does it actually add anything not conveyed by the much plainer "nickname"?

• Also, did he choose the nickname or did soeone else give it to him?

  I'm about to head to work, so I don't have time to make changes at the moment, but I wanted to say, someone else added this word, but upon reading the article, it is much more appropriate. As it's not just a nickname, but a name that easily serves as his name without being obvious that it's not his real name... the article words it better. I think in this case, wikilinking this word and leaving it in place gives the best description of what that name Maynard is for him. Lara❤Love 20:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• Also, if we're talking bout brilliant prose, I am thinking that Enjoying a family trade of winemaking, sounds a bit clunky, but an alternative doesn't immediately spring to mind. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 18:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It needs to be stated clearly who is characterizing, and what is being characterized, as intolerant and abusive. Though it is sourced, it appears the writer is making the characterization of "intolerant and abusive". Something like "Keenan described his step-father (step-family?) as intolerant and abusive." I don't have access to the article so I do not know for sure who is using that description.

This is something I came across the other night when looking if I could do any copyediting and it startled me. There are several other thoughts I had, but have not acted on yet. I'll probably have to re-read the article again later and give my ideas more thought. daveh4h 20:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

See my response above. Lara❤Love 07:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

indopug

I'm not sure if this article sufficiently distinguishes from an article on Keenan to one on with short overviews of his various projects. The best way to avoid this mistake I think would be to handle his life completely chronologically. The side-effect of not apprroaching his life that way is that what we have here is sales figures and certifications of Tool albums, Grammy-winning songs, the idea behind A Perfect Circle and how Billy Howerdel needs time to discover himself; all information that is more suitable for the respective bands' articles. I mean how is "In 2006, Puscifer would contribute the song "The Undertaker (Renholder Mix)" to the soundtrack of Underworld: Evolution, where "Renholder", (a moniker for Danny Lohner created by the members of A Perfect Circle) is the reversal of "Re: D Lohner"" very relevant to a biographical article related to Maynard James Keenan.

As of now, I don't think this article is ready for FA, due to content/summary issues. Check out Flea for a nice way to approach individual musician articles. indopug (talk) 14:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I started to do this. I wrote down the time line, renamed the section titles and began to move information around, but it's so very confusing that way. Keenan is not like Flea or John Frusciante. His time line is not so simple.

1990 - Formation of Tool

1991 - Opiate

1993 - Undertow, Lollapalooza Bill Hick's performance

1994 - "Prison Sex", Mr. Show

1995 - Devo born

1996 - AEnima, legal battle, hiatus

1997 - RAINN

1999 - Formation of APC

2000 - Mer de Noms

2001 - Tool releases Lateralus

2003 - Puscifer's first soundtrack, APC's Thirteenth Step

2004 - APC release eMOTIVe and later, aMotion

2005 - More soundtrack work from Puscifer, Tool's April Fool's joke, Seattle benefit

2006 - Tool's 10,000 Days

2007 - Puscifer releases V is for Vagina

They all run concurrently, so it's very difficult to run this chronologically and keep it easily distinguishable. It becomes very confusing, like "Okay, wait, which band are we talking about now?" Because it just goes back and forth. Flea and John and other FA bios, they aren't fronting three bands, releasing albums from three different bands in alternating years, etc. This isn't your standard, join band, get pissed a leave, come back, go to rehab, do some solo stuff, come back, etc. So I think, for MJK, this is the best format, just because his career is a bit more complex. I will, however, go through and remove some of the extra non-Maynard fluff, as you noted with the Renholder bit. Sales figures, certifications and awards are in place to detail the success he's experienced in his career. Such inclusions appear to be standard in FA bios. Thank you for your review. :) Lara❤Love 19:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Review by Seegoon

Stuff comes...

• Why does the lead talk about his pre-Tool days so much? I don't know if I'd consider that information necessary in a two paragraph summary of the article.

  The lead is supposed to summarize the whole article. Currently it touches on each main point.

• I hate to admit it, but a lot of the career section seems to be exclusively Tool-related, rather than Keenan-related. The "Prison Sex" information, for instance - how is this related directly to him?

  "Prison Sex" is mentioned because the video focused on child abuse. This is relevant because of Keenan's childhood. What other sentences do you find unnecessary?

• "Known for his dark, intelligent..." - I'd move the quotation mark to before "dark". Don't ask why, but as it currently is, it feels a little awkward.
• Shouldn't "Schism" be wikilinked?

  It wasn't linked because it's in a quote, but I suppose it's appropriate considering it's not linkable elsewhere. Good find.

• "His unique style of singing has been repeatedly seen as influencing..." - "has been cited on numerous occasions"? Something different, anyway.
• "elliptical and controlling..." - "elliptical" is a little bit of an obfuscation. Wink wink.

  I'm not finding an synonym. How is it an obfuscation?

  a. Of or relating to extreme economy of oral or written expression.

  b. Marked by deliberate obscurity of style or expression.

  Was that a joke? I think you just punked me. :p Lara❤Love 19:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Hope this is helpful. Seegoon (talk) 14:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I've corrected some issues and commented on others. Thank you for your review. :) Lara❤Love 19:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)