Wikipedia:Peer review/Namantar Shahid Smarak/archive1

Namantar Shahid Smarak

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I know the article could be better, but I'm not sure what to do.

Thanks, SchreiberBike talk 00:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Shudde:

• I'm completely unfamiliar with the subject of this article, and I have read the first few sentences a few times now, and am still completely confused as to what the subject is! My advice is give the first couple of sentences a rewrite so that after reading the first sentence, someone such as myself (who is completely unfamiliar with the subject) knows what it is about, and why it is notable.
• Once that is done, consider giving some more context to much of what you have written. For example:
  • "In response to the Maharashtra Legislature's renaming of Marathwada University decision in 1978, there was a giant backlash." -- why was there is backlash? What for? Why was the University renamed in the first place?
  • "The Dalit community was under siege for two years." -- before or after the renaming? What does this have to do with the previous sentence?
  • "Anti-Dalit pogroms included murders, torture, rapes, burning of colonies, poisoning of wells, property damage, boycotts and lockouts." - when were these progroms? Why did they take place? What do they have to do with the memorial?
• Who is B. R. Ambedkar? This should probably be established early in the lead. Why is he important and why did so many want the university named after him?

I'm not sure what else to say. Clearly this article is on a notable topic, but I did struggle to understand the exact reason for the memorial (clearly there is a good reason, I'm just not sure what it is). Hopefully my comments are helpful. -- Shudde ^talk 04:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

@Shudde and Bhooshannpy: Your feedback is great. Here's a fresh draft of an introductory paragraph. The information removed from the existing first two paragraphs could be moved further down in the article.

The Namantar Shahid Smarak is a large memorial sculpture dedicated to those who died in the Namantar Andolan. The Namantar Andolan was a movement in India by Dalits (formerly known as Untouchables) who wanted to rename a university in honour of a leading Dalit, B. R. Ambedkar. The movement was vigorously opposed by the Hindu community. During 16 years of struggle, there were murders, torture, rapes, burning of colonies, poisoning of wells, property damage, boycotts and lockouts. In 2013, 19 years after the movement’s success, the Nagpur Municipal Corporation erected this monument in memory of the valour and the sacrifice of Dalit martyrs.

I look forward to further feedback from Shudde, Bhooshannpy and anyone else who can help. SchreiberBike talk 21:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Looks good to me. A big improvement. This definitely makes a good start, and could be expanded on in the article proper. As for the the main article. The first thing I would have is a Namantar Andolan section. Using {{Main}} and just summarising Namantar Andolan (this article could use a better WP:LEAD by the way) in a paragraph or two. If you do this, then someone like me should have a good idea what the movement is, why it would need a memorial etc. The next section would be on the memorial itself: when was it proposed, what it was exactly meant to commemorate, who commissioned it. The last section would be on the memorial: who created it, what exactly it is (a description) -- you've already got some information on this: "The memorial has 27 sculptures of Bhim Sainiks who died during the pogroms[1] and they are shown in the act of their struggle. The memorial also has a monolith to pay homage to the martyrs. Along with the monument, there is a mini-theater for plays and discussions." -- but it could be expanded. That would give you three sections, and hopefully cover the topic adequately. Hope this helps. -- Shudde ^talk 09:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

@Shudde and Bhooshannpy:I tried summarizing the Namantar Andolan, but found that I couldn't get it shorter than three paragraphs. I need to explain what it means to be a Dalit, the significance of B. R. Abedkar and then give an outline of the movement. The following would come after a Background heading.

The Dalits of India had been on the bottom of the Indian caste system for millennia. In Hinduism, there are four castes and the Dalits were below the lowest of them. Dalits were considered polluted and this pollution was considered contagious. They worked in jobs which were considered ritually impure, they were not allowed to enter Hindu temples, they had to draw their water from separate wells and they had to live outside of villages.

In the early 20th century, one of the first Dalits to earn a college education was B. R. Ambedkar. Fighting discrimination, he attended Elphinstone College in Bombay, earned a master’s degree from Columbia University in the United States and then earned a doctoral degree from the London School of Economics. As part of the movement surrounding the independence of India from Britain, major social changes took place and Dr. B. R. Ambedkar was appointed to lead the committee to draft a new constitution for India. He proposed, and the new country passed into law, a wide range of civil liberties for individual citizens, including the legal abolition of untouchability.

The Dalit community in the state of Maharashtra proposed to rename Marathwada University in honor of B. R. Ambedkar. The chief minister, the legislature, and the university’s leaders approved the change, but a storm of opposition arose from the Hindu community. On 27 July 1978 riots began and the name change was stopped. The riots affected 25,000 Dalits and at least 27 were killed, some by the police. The Namantar Andolan (Name Change Movement) continued for 16 years before the university was renamed Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Marathwada University.

The next paragraphs would actually be about the monument. I'm working just from what I've learned by reading Wikipedia and a few other sources, so I may be missing things that I should know. Thanks for the feedback. SchreiberBike talk 23:46, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Dear Shudde Thank you for raising so many questions.

Dear SchreiberBike sorry for the late reply.

The Namantar Shahid Smarak is a large memorial sculpture dedicated to those who died in the Namantar Andolan. The Namantar Andolan was a movement in India by Dalits (formerly known as Untouchables) who wanted to rename a university in honour of a leading Dalit, B. R. Ambedkar. The movement was vigorously opposed by the Hindu community. During 16 years of struggle, there were murders, torture, rapes, burning of colonies, poisoning of wells, property damage, boycotts and lockouts. In 2013, 19 years after the movement’s success, the Nagpur Municipal Corporation erected this monument in memory of the valour and the sacrifice of Dalit martyrs.

The Dalits of India had been on the bottom of the Indian caste system for millennia. In Hinduism, there are four castes and the Dalits were below the lowest of them. Dalits were considered polluted and this pollution was considered contagious. They worked in jobs which were considered ritually impure, they were not allowed to enter Hindu temples, they had to draw their water from separate wells and they had to live outside of villages.

In the early 20th century, one of the first Dalits to earn a college education was B. R. Ambedkar. Fighting discrimination, he attended Elphinstone College in Bombay, earned a master’s degree from Columbia University in the United States and then earned a doctoral degree from the London School of Economics. As part of the movement surrounding the independence of India from Britain, major social changes took place and Dr. B. R. Ambedkar was appointed to lead the committee to draft a new constitution for India. He proposed, and the new country passed into law, a wide range of civil liberties for individual citizens, including the legal abolition of untouchability.

The Dalit community in the state of Maharashtra proposed to rename Marathwada University in honor of B. R. Ambedkar. The chief minister, the legislature, and the university’s leaders approved the change, but a storm of opposition arose from the Hindu community. On 27 July 1978 riots began and the name change was stopped. The riots affected 25,000 Dalits and at least 27 were killed, some by the police. The Namantar Andolan (Name Change Movement) continued for 16 years before the university was renamed Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Marathwada University.

I believe following addition would make above paragraphs accurate.

• "University was renamed as “Dr Bababasaheb Ambedkar Marhwada University” to pay homage to the work done by Dr Babasaheb Ambedkar for the educational development of the Marahwada region". [citation http://www.bamu.net/history.htm]
• four castes?? varna is right word. Hindusim ----- Varna --- Caste -- subcaste etc.. this is social pyramid.
• The riots affected 25,000 Dalits and at least 27 were killed, some?? by the police. - five by the police.

Many thanks.-----Bhooshan NPY (talk) 20:28, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

@Shudde and Bhooshannpy: I think the first quote from http://www.bamu.net/history.htm would be appropriate in the Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Marathwada University article and might fit well in Namantar Andolan, but since this is just a summary we should go with the simplest language. For "four castes", I linked to Varna (Hinduism), and will add a link to Caste system in India. Specifying that five were killed by police makes sense to me. I've got this set up now in a scratchpad and I'll work on integrating the references into it there.

Are there any other English language or translated Marathi references for the monument? It would be great if we could get some of the information that Shudde suggested ("when was it proposed, what it was exactly meant to commemorate, who commissioned it"). I'd also wonder: How was the design selected? Was there trouble getting the money to pay for it? Who paid for it? Does the artist have anything to say about it? Have there been any negative responses from the Hindu community or the police? Has it suffered any vandalism since it was unveiled? What were the politics of the decision to build it? Is it being well maintained? What kind of events have happened in the mini-theatre or around the monument? I'm full of questions that it would probably be hard to find answers for. Thanks for the ideas. SchreiberBike talk 22:49, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

@Shudde and SchreiberBike:, I have moved our discussion on Article talk page. I think we could link some previous discussion with current discussion. Many thanks.-----Bhooshan NPY (talk) 13:46, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Dear @Shudde:, Do you have any comments now? Many thanks.-----Bhooshan NPY (talk) 10:33, 9 November 2013 (UTC)