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Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to eventually submit it to FAC and to minimize any editorial problems with this article at this stage. Though it has gone through a tremendous amount of work already and is approaching FA quality, I am concerned especially about any questions regrading the Alma problem. A major source for this article is R-K's autobiography, which though excellent is not without its flaws, and no modern in-depth biography of R-K apparently exists in English. While secondary sources include both the 1980 and 2001 versions of the New Grove, they are limited in terms of the depth of information they offer. The question then becomes, can this article realistically approach FA quality with the sources at hand? This, among other things, is something I hope other editors can answer as they review this article.

Thanks, Jonyungk (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Nikkimaria

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 Doing...

  • Given the length of the TOC, I would argue for merging some of the subsections together where possible
  • The last sections are out of order: Bibliography should follow References. Furthermore, IIRC convention dictates that a section titled "Bibliography" in a biography referred to works by the subject of the article, not about them
  • The prose could be tightened up considerably. There are some redundant words, and some areas lack the clarity of writing required for FA
  • FA requires alt text for all images
  • Images need some work in order to verify licensing tags. For example, the lead image claims PD-old, which requires that 70 years must have passed since the death of the author. Since the portrait date and the author are not listed, this cannot be verified (and though unlikely, it is possible that copyright still remains). Similar problems exist for other unsourced (or uploader-as-source) images. Also, look here for details on the PD-art tag, which is used for a couple of the images in the article. My spam filter blocks the source link for File:Belayev by Repin.jpg - are you sure it's right? Permission links on Nikolai_Rimsky-Korsakov_-_Bumblebee.ogg‎ are broken.
  • Referencing format could be more consistent. Also, why do some references have parentheses around them?
    • The New Grove references use parentheses because two different versions are being used, published in 1980 and 2001. Therefore, the publishing date appears in parentheses to indicate which version is being used. I am a litttle puzzled by your comment about consistent referencing, as the use of references is otherwise consistent throughout the article. Could you please elaborate? Jonyungk (talk) 22:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • In regards to the parentheses, I'm looking at Notes 92 and 93, which are entirely enclosed and aren't New Grove. As for consistent referencing, some notes use ndashes for page ranges while others use mdashes, there are extra punctuation marks in some and marks missing in others. Some references lack ISBNs, and the format is not constant (some use commas after authors while others use periods, etc).

Comments from Awadewit

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I'm greatly enjoying reviewing this article - it is already of a very high quality. My first comments are about the images, as they need some serious attention. I will move on to other issues in a bit.

Images need a lot of work
Image now linked to the HTML page. Jonyungk (talk) 00:22, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Nadezhda Purgold.jpg - The image description page needs the following information: date, source, and author of the original image.
    • I have contacted the uploader of this file. Jonyungk (talk) 01:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • *Question: Is File:Franz Xaver Winterhalter Portrait of Madame Barbe de Rimsky-Korsakov.jpg a portrait of the composer's wife, as is claimed in a couple of websites? It's a wonderful portrait, but two things about it bother me. First, the portrait was painted in 1864, and Nadezhda Purgold did not become Madame Rimsky-Korsakov until 1872. Second, since Nadezhda Purgold was born in 1848, this must have been one very attractive 14-year-old sitting for the portrait. In short, as much as I'm tempted to replace File:Nadezhda Purgold.jpg with this one, the dates just don't add up. If I am wrong and this is actually Nadezhda Purgold in the portrait, I'll make the switch. Second opinions, please. Jonyungk (talk) 12:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have chagned the licensing of this photo to non-free use and given a rationale in the file info for doing so. It illustrates the subject in quesiton (Nadezhda Rimskaya-Korsakova) and is unrepeatable (i.e. a free image could not be created to replace it) on the English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation. Therefore, it qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law and can be used. Jonyungk (talk) 21:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Will add more later. Awadewit (talk) 05:43, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A small point - while removing the images from this article will clearly remove any image problems, it might be nice to try and improve the information on these images so that they can be used. Since you have access to R-K sources, you might be able to find information about them. Thanks! Awadewit (talk) 02:36, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You write that there is "no modern in-depth biography" of R-K in English - is there in Russian? Is there any possibility of working with a Russian-speaking editor to see if anything significant has been missed?
    • The only in-depth biography in Russian that I know about is the multi-volume version by R-K's son, which is now quite old; I would also question the veracity of the author, consisdering it is a member of the R-K family. Working with a Russian-speaking editor is a good question. I do not know any, but would not shy away from the suggestion for that reason. Jonyungk (talk) 06:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree that an old biography written by his son is far from ideal - I'm really surprised there isn't something better. I'm happy to hear there isn't some stellar biography in Russian that hasn't been consulted, however! The featured article criteria require that a "thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic" be included in the article. Clearly, it would be good to have information from the son's biography, but I'm wondering how necessary that is. It will be good to have other people weigh in on this question. Awadewit (talk) 01:32, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What kinds of research have you done? I read about your concerns regarding sources above. I'm curious if someone with access to a good music library might be able to help you or if we are at the end of the sources? Do we need to contact a musicologist? I'm at a very good music school and might be able to help out.
    • Other than R-K's autobiography, my research has included both New Groves, Brown (the multi-volume Tchaikovsky biography) Figes, Maes, and Taruskin. Unless something pops up, we may be out of sources, which has been part of my concern with this article; there simply may not be the wealth of information for R-K that is available for Tchaikovsky. Contacting a musicologist may not be a bad idea, provided there is more information available. I'm open to suggestions. Jonyungk (talk) 06:36, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • FAs don't require that a lot of information exist, only that the article represent what is available (that is why we can have FAs on TV episodes, for example). Also, I don't see that many books about R-K's music in my school library, but I do see a lot about Russian music and during that time. I'm not really sure how many sources are necessary to cover R-K's music. (Brianboulton might be a better person to ask.) The little I know about R-K is covered in this article, but I only have a passing familiarity with his music, so I'm not a very good judge. Awadewit (talk) 01:32, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Will add more later. Awadewit (talk) 05:49, 5 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Of the material sourced to the autobiography, here are the statements I would like to see some additional sourcing for or an acknowledgment in the article that the information is from R-K's autobiography:
  • Mikhaíl Azanchevsky, who had taken over that year as director,[15] had wanted new blood to freshen up teaching in those subjects
  • The other members of the Five showed little enthusiasm for the symphony, less still for the quartet
  • Worse still was Anton Rubinstein, a well-known, musically conservative composer who did not agree with the nationalists' music or their philosophy. After Rubinstein heard the quartet, he commented that now Rimsky-Korsakov "might amount to something" as a composer
  • Tchaikovsky continued to support Rimsky-Korsakov morally. He told Rimsky-Korsakov that he fully applauded what Rimsky-Korsakov was doing and admired both his artistic modesty and his strength of character.
  • Within a couple of years, as Tchaikovsky grew in confidence in the relationship, his visits became more frequent.
  • He died in Lyubensk in 1908, and was interred in Tikhvin Cemetery at the Alexander Nevsky Monastery in St. Petersburg. - It's unclear how R-K can discuss his own death and burial.
    • The manuscript for the autobiography was discovered among his papers following his death and edited by his widow before publication. Either she or a subsequent editor could have added it; nevertheless, it is in the autobiography. This is now explained in the sentence in question. Jonyungk (talk) 01:29, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are there any sources that discuss the lack of R-K biographies? It might be nice to tell readers about that. At the beginning of the "Biography" section in the Jane Austen article, for example, we have explained the limitations of the sources. Awadewit (talk) 01:35, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have not come across this personally, but perhaps it should be noted nevertheless. Perhaps the answer will become clear once you have reviewed the prose Jonyungk (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Another option is what I did at Mary Martha Sherwood, which is include this sentence at the top of the "Bibliography": "There is no complete scholarly biography of Sherwood. Most of the biographical details in Cutt, Dawson, Demers and Smith are drawn from Sherwood's own autobiography, which is itself a compilation of her manuscript, some diary entries and some sections added by a later editor." Awadewit (talk) 17:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can you explain more specifically what your concerns are regarding the Alma problem? Awadewit (talk) 01:39, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • My concern was a perceived overreliance on R-K's autobiography as a major source. This potential issue was brought up during the review of the article as part of the Composers project. Lacking an in-depth modern source to counterbalance the autobiography, I was concerned this perception might still be considered the case. Jonyungk (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Using autobiographies is always tricky, but at least you do have other sources. I think that the careful use of attribution is key as is the careful selection of details. My only concern in that area was that a lot of the "inspector of bands" material seemed to be taken from the autobiography. Do the other sources not cover this topic as much? Awadewit (talk) 17:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Will add a few comments on prose next. The prose is very good and does not need very much work, in my opinion. The writing is a pleasure to read and clear. Awadewit (talk) 01:43, 6 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Although the article suggests that Nadezhda played a large role in her husband's compositions and musical development, only one paragraph is devoted to this topic. Is any more information available on this topic? Awadewit (talk) 18:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The information on Nadezhda has been frustratingly limited—she barely gets a mention in R-K's autobiography, and nothing on this subject. The New Grove has been better in mentioning her contributions, so it probably wouldn't hurt to check it once more; hopefully, Frolova-Walker has some new information in the 2001 edition that I may have missed earlier. Otherwise, everything available is in the artiole. Jonyungk (talk) 18:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The New Grove did not have a tremendous amount of new informaiton, but I was able to fill in a couple of details. The paragraph now reads, Nadezhda was to become a musical as well as domestic partner with her husband, much as Clara Schumann had been with her own husband Robert.[37] She was beautiful, capable, strong-willed and far better trained musically than her husband at the time they married,[39]—she had attended the St. Petersburg Conservatory in the mid-1860s, studying piano with Gerke and music theory with Nikolai Zaremba, who also taught Tchaikovsky.[40] Nadezhda proved a fine and most demanding critic of her husband's work; her influence over him in musical matters was strong enough for Balakirev and Stasov to wonder sometimes whether she was leading him astray from their musical preferences.[22] Musicologist Lyle Neff writes that while Nadezhda gave up her own compositional career when she married Rimsky-Korsakov, she "had a considerable influence on the creation of [Rimsky-Korsakov's] first three operas. She travelled with her husband, attended rehearsals and arranged compositions by him and others"[40] for piano four hands, which she played with her husband.[22] "Her last years were dedicated to issuing her husband's posthumous literary and musical legacy, maintaining standards for performance of his works ... and preparing material for a museum in his name."[40]
  • The one sound clip contained in the article is buried in the "References" section - I would suggest featuring this more prominently. We need to take advantage of Wikipedia's multimedia capabilities. Also, is there a possibility of gaining any other clips? Brianboulton and Shoemaker's Holiday have worked on this for other classical music articles - they might be able to help you. Awadewit (talk) 19:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Prose and other small questions
  • However, his initial music lessons were completed with questionable enthusiasm, as he was weak at counting and played poorly - This sentence is not quite clear - was R-K unenthusiastic because he didn't play well?
    • That is also my guess—the sentence was added by another editor as part of an educational project. Is this information really needed? I was bowing to consensus by leaving it in. Jonyungk (talk) 22:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I found a passage in the autobiography that confirms this and have amended the lassage to read, However, his initial music lessons were completed with questionable enthusiasm, partly because of lack of interest but also, he later wrote, because he played "badly, carelessly, and was poor at keeping time".[8] Jonyungk (talk) 00:49, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1856, the 12-year-old Rimsky-Korsakov's poetic love for the ocean could not override realism or his father's inability to pay for anything more prestigious than the Corps of Pages - This is the first we hear of this love for the ocean.
    • Again, this was added by another editor as part of an editorial project and was left in as a bow to consensus. The only other mention of R-K's love for the sea that I have read was Balakirev's giving R-K the task of writing Sadko in hopes that the theme might be fostered by R-K's love for the ocean. Should this sentence be left in or taken out? I noticed that it is also not attributed. Jonyungk (talk) 22:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Again, I have found a passge in the autobiography that backs up R-K's love for the sea, though not the other information, and have amended the passage with this information: Although he started composing his own compositions by age 10, Rimsky preferred literature over music;[9] he later wrote that from his reading as well as the exploits of his brother Voin, a naval officer 22 years Rimsky-Korsakov's senior, he developed a poetic love for the sea "without ever having seen it".[10] It was this passion for the ocean, along with some prompting from Voin, that encouraged the 12-year-old Rimsky-Korsakov to join the Imperial Russian Navy.[9] Jonyungk (talk) 00:49, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • took his passing-out examination in April 1862 - Is it called a "passing-out examination" in the sources? That is a new phrase for me, but I'm unfamiliar with Russian educational terms.
  • After he strove "to crowd in as much counterpoint as possible" into his Third Symphony,[2] he applied his newly acquired knowledge to chamber works in which he adhered strictly to classical models. These included a string sextet, a string quartet in F minor and a quintet for flute, clarinet, horn, bassoon and piano. - Should we have articles, or at least redlinks to articles, about these pieces?
  • Two projects helped Rimsky-Korsakov focus on less academic music-making. The first was the creation of two folk song collections in 1874,[7] which he credited as a great influence on him as a composer.[8] The second project was the editing of Mikhail Glinka's orchestral scores in collaboration with Balakirev and Anatoly Lyadov. - This paragraph seems a little thin - can more be added on what R-K gained from these two experiences?
    • More material hass been added: Two projects helped Rimsky-Korsakov focus on less academic music-making. The first was the creation of two folk song collections in 1874. Approached at Balakirev's suggestion by folk singer Tvorty Filipov,[63] Rimsky-Korsakov transcribed 40 Russian songs for voice and piano from performances by Filippov.[64][65] This collection was followed by a second of 100 songs, many supplied by friends and servants, and others taken from rare and out-of-print collections.[65][66] Rimsky-Korsakov later credited this work as a great influence on him as a composer;[67] it also supplied a vast amount of musical material from which he could draw for future projects, either by direct quotation or as models for composing fakeloric passages.[65] The second project was the editing of Glinka's orchestral scores in collaboration with Balakirev and Anatoly Lyadov.[46] This project was prompted by Glinka's sister, Lyudmila Ivanovna Shestavoka, who wanted to preserve her brother's musical legacy in print, and paid the costs of the project from her own pocket.[68] No project like this had been attempted before in Russian music.[65] Guidelines for scholarly musical editing had to established and agreed upon by all three editors.[65] While Balakirev was in favor of making changes in Glinka's music to "correct" what he saw as compositional flaws, Rimsky-Korsakov favored a less intrusive approach.[65] Eventually, Rimsky-Korsakov prevailed.[65] "Work on Glinka's scores was an unexpected schooling for me," Rimsky-Korsakov later wrote. "Even before this I had known and worshipped his operas; but as editor of the scores in print I had to go through Glinka's style and instrumentation to their last little note.... And this was a beneficent discipline for me, leading me as it did to the path of modern music, after my vicissitudes with coupterpoint and strict style".[69]
  • Nevertheless, despite the ease at which Rimsky-Korsakov wrote this opera and the rapidity at which he penned the next, The Snow Maiden,[11] he became intermittently paralyzed creatively from 1881 to 1888 - Are there are any speculations about why he couldn't compose much during this period?
  • In 1905, approximately 100 St. Petersburg Conservatory students were expelled for taking part in the February Revolution - A sentence or two explaining the political issues at stake and why Rimsky-Korsakov took the positions he did would be helpful.
    • I have added substantial material to this paragraph. On one hand, I think the new information is relevant; on the other, I am concerned about overdetailing and would appreciate some feedback. In 1905, demonstrations took place at St. Petersburg Conservatory as part of the February Revolution; these, Rimsky-Korsakov wrote, were triggered by similar disturbances at St. Petersburg State University, in which students demanded political reforms and establishment of a constitutional monarchy in Russia.[91] "I was chosen a member of the committee for adjusting differences with agitated pupils," Rimsky-Korsakov recalled; however, almost as soon as the committee had been formed, "[a]ll sorts of measures were recommended to expel the ringleaders, to quarter the police in the Conservatory, to close the Conservatory entirely".[91] A lifelong liberal politically,[92] he wrote that he felt someone had to protect the rights of the students to demonstrate, especially as disputes and wrangling between students and authorities were becoming increasingly violent.[91] In an open letter, Rimsky-Korsakov sided with the students against what he saw as unwarranted interference by Conservatory leadership and the Russian Musical Society.[91] A second letter, this time signed by a number of faculty including Rimsky-Korsakov, demanded the resignation of the head of the Conservatory.[93] Partly as a result of these two letters, Rimsky-Korsakov wrote, approximately 100 Conservatory students were expelled, and Rimsky-Korsakov was removed from his professorship.[94] Not long afterwards, a student production of his opera Kaschei the Immortal was followed not with the scheduled concert but with a political demonstration,[95] which led to a police ban on Rimsky-Korsakov's work.[95] Due in part to widespread press coverage of these events,[96] an immediate wave of outrage to the ban arose throughout Russia and abroad; liberals and intellectuals deluged the composer's residence with letters of sympathy,[97] and even peasants who had not heard a note of Rimsky-Korsakov's music sent small monetary donations.[92] Several faculty members of the St. Petersburg Conservatory resigned in protest, including Glazunov and Lyadov.[98] Eventually, over 300 additional students walked out of the Conservatory in solidarity with Rimsky-Korsakov.[99] By December he had been reinstated under a new director, Glazunov,[96] and would retire from the Conservatory in 1906.[100] However, the political controversy continued with his opera The Golden Cockerel.[99] Its implied criticism of monarchy, Russian imperialism and the Russo-Japanese War gave it little chance of passing the censors.[99] The premiere was delayed until 1909, after Rimsky-Korsakov's death.[99] Even then, it was performed in an adapted version.[99]
  • In the "Compositions" section, could you explain what made his harmonies "radical"?
    • His use of the whole tone scale and the octatonic scale, both of which were considered adventurous by Western classical standards, made his harmonies seem radical. Conversely, the fact R-K was careful about how or when in a composition he used these scales made him seem conservative compared to those who would follow him, such as Igor Stravinsky, even though, in a sense, they would build on R-K's work. Jonyungk (talk) 21:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The purely orchestral works are mainly programmatic in nature, more so if we take at face value Rimsky-Korsakov's comment, "To me, even a folk theme has a programme of sorts." - I think the technical term "programme" needs to be explained here.
    • How about this: The purely orchestral works are mainly programmatic in nature—in other words, the musical content and sequence of events are determined by a story, a painting or some other non-musical source, rather than by abstract rules of musical composition.[3]
  • They show the dual influence of Balakirev and Liszt,[3] and continue the musical ideals espoused by the Five, such as in the use of liturgical themes in the Russian Easter Festival Overture; - What specific influences of Liszt and Balakirev?
    • Balakirev in the use of the whole tone scale and musical orientalism; Liszt likewise for harmonic adventurousness as well as the prevalence of a non-musical stimilus (i.e., a program) to determine musical content and action. Jonyungk (talk) 21:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should more of the compositions in the "Orchestral works" section be linked or redlinked?
  • Could we add Flight of the Bumblebee into the article? I think it is one of R-K's most well-known works (to the general public) and we should probably make mention of it.
  • The last two paragraphs of the "Students" section is interesting but I wonder how necessary it really is.
  • The "Publications" section should list the publication information for the first editions in Russian and English.

I haven't done a very close WP:MOS review - I will leave that for others - but certainly everything certainly conforms to the basic MOS rules. Awadewit (talk) 19:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments: Sorry to be slow in reviewing this and glad to see it has received som many comments already. I agree this looks quite good, here are some suggestions for improvement.

  • Should his naval career be mentioned in the lead?
  • Distances need to be given in both metric and English units - {{convert}} does this nicely. See for example Rimsky-Korsakov was born at Tikhvin, 200 km east of St. Petersburg, into an aristocratic family with a long line of military and naval service.[4]
  • Some places that have years could use his age too - for example He studied at the School for Mathematical and Navigational Sciences in St. Petersburg and took his final examination in April 1862.[7] (he was about 18).
  • Also could the year be added to the Repin portrait?
  • Mussorgsky is linked twice in just the Early life section
  • Can it be made clearer from the start that R-K is wrioting about himself here? As a teacher at the St. Petersburg Conservatory, Rimsky-Korsakov [wrote that he] soon became "possibly its very best pupil, judging by the quantity and value of the information it gave me!" (emphasis Rimsky-Korsakov).[33]
  • I do not undertsand the part of this after contrapuntal exercises: ... he taught himself from textbooks[34] and followed a strict regimen of contrapuntal exercises, fugues, chorales and a cappella choruses.[22] What was he doing with the fugues etc.? Studying them? Composing new ones? Playing them?
  • Missing word? However, his quest for excellence far exceeded [his?] competence as an instructor and became a search for perfection.[22]
  • Tenses do not agree (should all be past?): As Inspector, Rimsky-Korsakov visited naval bands throughout Russia, supervise the bandmasters and their appointments, review the bands' repertoire, and inspect the quality of their instruments.
  • Should the deaths of M and B be mentioned: He kept busy during this time by editing Mussorgsky's works and completing Borodin's Prince Igor.[56]
  • What year was this? Rimsky-Korsakov became acquainted with capitalist and budding music patron Mitrofan Belyayev (M. P. Belaieff) at the weekly "quartet Fridays" ("Les Vendredis") held at Belyayev's home
  • Missing something? The Russian Symphony Concerts were just one of several avenues through which Belyayev worked to aid Russian composers, and through which Rimsky-Korsakov became associated [with what?].
    • I have amended this passage to read, The Russian Symphony Concerts were just one of several avenues through which Belyayev worked to aid Russian composers, and for which Rimsky-Korsakov wrote that he was asked for advice and guidance. Jonyungk (talk) 17:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • We? The purely orchestral works are mainly programmatic in nature, more so if we take at face value Rimsky-Korsakov's comment, ... how about "if R-K's comment is taken at face value"
  • Glazunov linked twice in close proximity (students and Editing)
  • He was not a member of the Five and the complete orchestration of Alexander Dargomyzhsky's swan song, The Stone Guest.[19]
  • Over all this seems quite good to me. I wonder if a crop of his head from one of the color portraits might not be a better lead image?

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog. I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 20:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)

  • You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, so I looked at the sourcing and referencing with that in mind. I reviewed the article's sources as I would at FAC.
    • My personal preference is that if you use some titles in your shortened footnotes, that you use all of them for consistency.
    • I've read the above about sources, and given that knowledge, what sources you're using are reliable.
Hope this helps. Please note that I don't watchlist Peer Reviews I've done. If you have a question about something, you'll have to drop a note on my talk page to get my attention. (My watchlist is already WAY too long, adding peer reviews would make things much worse.) 16:17, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested review of "The Five" and "February Revolution" material

  • I think that the February Revolution section has just the right level of detail but that the new material on "The Five" might have too much quotation. The two long quotes might need to be shortened, particularly the second one. Awadewit (talk) 23:10, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you for reviewing these sections. in the section on "The Five", the first quote has been shorteend and the second absorbed into the text. I am still concerned about overdetailing in this section but the section itself appears more manageable now. Jonyungk (talk) 01:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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