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Pierre Monteux

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
Monteux was a great conductor, who, perhaps because he was not flamboyant or publicity seeking, is not as well known to posterity as he might be. Cg2p0B0u8m and I have been working on this article for some considerable time, and we think it is now ready for peer review with the aim of taking it to FAC after that. All comments gratefully received, on prose, balance, neutrality, length and anything else. – Tim riley (talk) 12:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image comments
File:Pierre Monteux, Conductor of the Ballets Russes (c1911-1914) - Gallica (cropped, BW).jpg - Needs a US PD tag ({{PD-1923}} will work, or {{PD-anon-1923}}) and one for anonymous works ({{PD-France}} or {{Anonymous-EU}} will do).
File:Georges Enesco & Alfred Cortot 1930.jpg needs a reason why it is PD in the US. Not sure if it is.
File:Saint-Saens-organ.jpg is PD in France (anonymous works published more than 70 years ago) and can be safely transferred to Commons. Templates as above.
File:Stravinsky-Nijinsky-Petrouchka.jpg looks fine, although finding out when Bert died would be necessary for transferring the file to Commons.
File:Jeux-1913.jpg can be safely transferred to Commons, with {{PD-UK-unknown}} showing it is PD in Britain
File:Le Sacre du printemps by Roerich 02.jpg - For some reason I can't access the source images. You should double check that this one was indeed published in 1910.
File:Farrar-Homer-Martinelli-Caruso.jpg may be PD as well, if there is no Author information.
File:Monteux-family.jpg looks fine, can be transferred to Commons.
File:Salle-Pleyel-P1000321.jpg needs a copyright tag for the building, as France does not have freedom of panorama. Is the architect's name available? That would help immensely.
File:Pierre Monteux 1933 (2).jpg this one also needs a US PD tag, although I don't think it is PD in the US. It would have fallen afoul of the URAA
File:Pierre Monteux with wife and daughter 1933.jpg this one also needs a US PD tag, although I don't think it is PD in the US. It would have fallen afoul of the URAA
File:Rimsky-Korsakov. Scheherazade, Symphonic Suite, Op. 35 - 01 The Sea And Sinbads Ship.ogg comes across as an invalid ogg file. Does it work for you?
Strange! It works perfectly if I use Firefox, but not if I use Internet Explorer. I have run across this phenomenon before, but don't know what, if anything, I can do about it. Tim riley (talk) 08:59, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Those are my image comments. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for these. I'll follow up and deal accordingly. Tim riley (talk) 08:54, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prose comments:
Lede
Early life
  • Should probably have his date of birth in the first paragraph.
  • "née Brisac" - Would this being in parentheses be better?
  • Henri and Paul - Notable enough for a redlink?
  • Franck's Symphony - Is it Franck's Symphony, Franck's Symphony, or Franck's Symphony
  • Perhaps a quick descriptor on what the Folies Bergère was?
  • "Monteux recalled Brahms's remark, "It takes the French to play my music properly. The Germans all play it much too heavily."" - Is this pertinent to the article at hand?
  • "Years later, in his seventies, Monteux deputised with the Budapest Quartet without rehearsal or score; asked by Erik Smith if he could write out the parts of the seventeen Beethoven quartets, he replied, "You know, I cannot forget them."" - I'm not sure I see how this relates... mind you, I'm certainly not well-versed on classical composers, so it could be something blatantly obvious that I'm missing.
    • Cg2p0B0u8m – you mentioned this on your talk page. Perhaps you'd add your thoughts here. Tim riley (talk) 11:39, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • The sentence about Beethoven string quartets illustrates (1) his remarkable musical memory (2) the degree in which he was immersed in the classical quartet repertoire in his early years (3) an important part of his formative musical experience.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 16:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Neither the bride's family nor the groom's approved of the marriage. " - "Neither family approved of the marriage."
  • "There were a son and daughter of the marriage." - Why not something like "Monteux and his wife later had a son and daughter."
  • "During these years he also belonged to a group which toured with the Casadesus family of musicians and Alfredo Casella on the piano, playing ancient pieces allegedly found in libraries by one of the Casadesus, who in the end confessed to having written the music himself." - This should most definitely be split.
    • Cg2p0B0u8m – I think you added this. Do we know if Monteux knew of the deception? If not I wonder if it should remain in here?
      • I was trying to broaden our coverage of the first 38 years of his life… this illustrates (a) others famous musicians with whom he was in close contact and (b) the types of musical activity he was in. I agree it appears a bit rambling.
  • "Monteux was successful in the competition for the chair of first viola of the Concerts Colonne," - Why not "Monteux was chosen for the chair of first viola of the Concerts Colonne," or something more succinct?
  • "Colonne had known Berlioz; Monteux marked his scores with notes based on the composer's intentions. These scores were stolen from his Paris apartment by the Nazis in the Second World War and lost" - This footnote should not be in the reference section (check your formatting).
  • "where he continued to play from time to time for several years" - "where he played occasionally over several years" or something similar, perhaps?
First conducting posts
  • "the player engaged for the important and difficult organ part" - Any idea who?
  • grandes écoles - a bit of clarification on this classification would be nice... sounds interesting.
  • "he was physically quite unsuited to soldiering." - Is quite necessary here?
  • "under whose baton he had played," - Sounds whimsical. Why not "under whom he had played,"
    • Agreed.
Ballets Russe
The Rite of Spring
  • "It is not clear how much Monteux ever came to love the score." - Love, like, or enjoy here?
    • Point taken, but "love" is right I think, as in "music lovers". I'm inclined to see how it fares at FAC.
  • "Leading up to the 1913 London performances, Diaghilev's authority was challenged when Monteux declared that he was the composer's representative in matters related to Rite of Spring." - Should we use the active voice here, like "Leading up to the 1913 London performances, Monteux challenged Diaghilev's authority by declaring that he was the composer's representative in matters related to Rite of Spring."?
  • Valses Nobles et Sentimentales - italics?
The Met and Boston
  • "The tour took in fifty-four cities in the US and Canada. " - Are you missing a word after "took"?
  • "Monteux refused to conduct Nijinsky's new ballet Till Eulenspiegel as the music was by a German – Strauss, so a conductor had to engaged for those performances." - I think Strauss should be surrounded by either two dashes or two commas, not one and one.
  • "At the Met (as the Metropolitan Opera was and is often called)" - Why not move the parenthetical above and have "French repertoire at the Metropolitan Opera, or Met,..."
  • Petrushka, in a new production by, and starring, Adolph Bolm, in an unusual opera-ballet double bill with La traviata. - This feels like jamming too much information in a single sentence, especially with the other debuts before this. Perhaps a split, like "... Petrushka; the latter was a new production (written?) by and starring Adolph Bolm that was presented in an unusual opera-ballet double bill with La traviata." or something similar.
Amsterdam
  • ("Ve vill make some changements", as an English player quoted him) - Is this necessary?
    • Not strictly, but I think it gives a splendid flavour of Mengelberg. By contrast, the idea of Monteux's making some changements is unthinkable.
  • While in Amsterdam Monteux conducted operas, including Pelléas et Mélisande, its Dutch premiere, Carmen, The Tales of Hoffmann, a Lully and Ravel double bill of Acis et Galatée and L'heure espagnole, Gluck's Iphigénie en Tauride (also brought to the Paris Opéra) and Verdi's Falstaff. - I think this needs some semi-colons instead of commas in some places. Also, don't think Carmen has been linked yet.
  • The OSP bit seems a little confused, with Monteaux appointed in the opening sentence and again below. This is probably to explain the background a bit, but it feels like wandering.
    • I see what you mean, and will see if I can devise any better wording. Cg2p0B0u8m, any thoughts on this?
General
  • Should image captions have (l) or (left) in them?
    • I don't think the MoS specifies. My usual rule is to prefer any form with the fewer characters, but I don't feel strongly on the matter.
  • Note that ellipses should use ... and not a hardcoded ellipses character.

I am most grateful for this very thorough review. I'll go through the points with my co-nominator. We'll be busy for quite a while! Tim riley (talk) 10:35, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

San Francisco and the Monteux School
Last years
  • "orchestra of Radiotelevisione italiana" - Is this the common term, or is it more common to see "Radiotelevisione italiana orchestra"?
    • I should say the former is more idiomatic. Tim riley (talk) 11:39, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • (moved here to avoid duplication) Which RAI orchestra? There were four at the time (Turin, Rome, Naples and Milan). Presumably, this would have been the Milan one, the Orchestra Sinfonica di Milano della Rai. Unfortunately, the disbanded RAI orchestras haven't got Wikipedia articles yet. I'd suggest rephrasing this clause, using RAI rather than the formal but little used Radiotelevisione italiana, perhaps accompanied by an explanatory phrase such as "the Italian broadcasting company/service".
  • Date of death should probably be in the body of the article (after all, the lede just summarises the article)
Personal life
Alright, I plan on tackling the musical section tomorrow. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:12, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Recordings
  • "It is also possible that Monteux played in the Colonne Orchestra's 20 early cylinders recorded around 1906-7" - Is "early cylinders the name of the work? If so, perhaps "It is also possible that Monteux played in the Colonne Orchestra's 20 early cylinders, recorded around 1906-7"

Once again, thank you so much for these suggestions. I'll go into a huddle with my co-nom and work out what we are going to do about them. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note to Cg2p0B0u8m: Would you care to review the comments and my replies above, adding your own comments where you wish? I'll then action the outstanding points. Tim riley (talk) 11:39, 6 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Next steps: addressing these, before going on to Wehwalt's, below. Tim riley (talk) 19:06, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good! I think we are there or thereabouts on the above. I'll set to work on the amendments. Then on to Wehwalt's suggestions, below. Tim riley (talk) 12:25, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Wehwalt
Lede
  • I would add a second sentence to the first paragraph stating what Monteux is best known for. My opinion is that the first paragraph of this lede generally should not be that short.
" and the viola privately with Benjamin Godard. After working as a violist," To mention a viola is of course necessary, but as both words orbit close by the violin, can these two not be combined into one by using some such construction as "which he played"? Perhaps by having the sentence break between the violin and viola.
  • " Among the composers whose concert works he premiered " Since you earlier specified that certain premieres took place in Paris, readers may assume that all of these happened in London.
  • "but he nevertheless made a substantial number of records ranging as widely as his concert repertoire, from Bach to the premieres he conducted, and including all the Beethoven symphonies" This part of the sentence could use a bit of work for clarity.
  • "Hancock County, Maine" People are more likely to have heard of a name of a town than a county in the US. It doesn't have the same association as in the UK.
Early years
  • You dance around the point but do not actually say if Monteux and his immediate family were Jewish. Also, "Sephardi Jews", in my experience "Sephardic" is more common.
  • "The young Monteux" I would re-establish that you are talking about Pierre.
  • " Folies Bergère" You mention it twice in quick succession, ending consecutive sentences. I suggest that you combine with a semicolon and use only once.
  • "he played many concerts with the Quartet, " In view of the fact that it's bracketed by others of its breed, omitting "Quartet" in favour of some other word.
  • "inter-religious marriage; furthermore both families thought the couple too young to marry.[10] There were a son and daughter of the marriage" Perhaps one of the marriages could make way for "union" or similar? Also, is "mixed marriage" a term outside the US?
  • "During these years " What years? The years of his marriage? You haven't framed what years those were for us.
  • "playing ancient pieces allegedly found in libraries by one of the Casadesus, who in the end confessed to having written the music himself." A bit awkward; if they were composed by on eof the Casadesus, then they weren't ancient. Suggest rephrase.
  • "Berlioz". First mention, should be linked. Additionally, passage somewhat cryptic, though the footnote does help.
Ballets Russes
  • "he insisted that Monteux should conduct the premiere." suggest delete "should"
  • " In the middle of the tour Monteux was briefly summoned back to Paris by the Concerts Colonne, leaving his deputy, Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht, in temporary charge at the Ballets Russes.[34] The Colonne orchestra had a contractual right to recall Monteux, who remained its assistant conductor." Hm, perhaps "In the middle of the tour Monteux was briefly summoned back to Paris by the Concerts Colonne, which had the contractual right to recall him as its assistant conductor, leaving his deputy, Désiré-Émile Inghelbrecht, in charge of the Ballets Russes."
The Met and Boston
  • "Monteux was called up for military service" Judging by his first service, the scraping of the barrel bottom indeed. Perhaps "again called up"?
  • Is it possible to say how two years in the trenches affected him?
  • On balance, I would give the double bill of Petrushka and La traviata its own sentence.
  • "from German backgrounds" possibly "with German backgrounds"? Or "of German heritage" if the source will stretch?
  • You should probably mention that Ansermet was the initial musical director. You do imply it, but it had me looking backwards.
San Francisco
  • SFS or SFSO? You use both.
  • Can some mention be given to WWII, which I believe was going on at some point?
1950s
  • "He returned annually" Monteux
  • Any connection between Monteux's return to the Met and Rudolf Bing's ascent there?
London
  • " Neville Marriner" FYI you previously link and describe as "Sir Neville Marriner". Perhaps this time, change to "his former student Marriner, who was by then (whatever he was)"
Music
  • For the final sentence of the article, it seems odd that this is a sentence about audio recordings in a paragraph about videos.
  • Is the see also really necessary? It's in the text?
That's all I have. A good read as always.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for these points. I'll go into conference with my co-nominator and agree what we are going to do about each of them. Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: Sorry for the delay in getting to this, but "events, dear boy, events...". Here are a few initial points, none of much substance:-

Lead
  • I echo Wehwalt's concern about single-sentence opening paragraphs, which often introduce the subject rather weakly. You need a second sentence which draws attention to the subject's main claims to notability. In this case, perhaps something along the lines of: "In the course of his career he premiered many important works, including..."
  • "He then served in the French army for two years, and in 1916 conducted the Ballets Russes on a North American tour." The two clauses are too diverse in subject material to be joined by an "and" - events separated by over 20 years.
Early years
  • "He attended the world premiere of Franck's Symphony." Perhaps give the date. Personally I would say "Cesar Franck", and separate the links on the composer and the work.
  • "given to the composer" → "given before the composer" ?
  • "Although only eighteen..." → "at the age of eighteen" ?
  • Paragraph beginning: "During these years he also..." Needs name, not pronoun.
  • "one of the Casadesus" doesn't work; it's like saying "one of the Menhuin".
First conducting posts
  • Is it right to refer to his conducting of the Saint-Saens as a "conducting engagement"? He certainly wasn't intended for this job initially.
  • "called up for compulsory military service." I would have thought that "called up" implied "compulsory"
  • Suggested clarification: "As a graduate of the Conservatoire, one of France's grandes écoles, he was..."
  • It is possible to adjust the brightness and contrast on the Saint-Saens image, so that the old boy appears with better definition. I have tried this and I think it worked - why not have a go?
Ballets Russes
  • Mention Weber as composer of Le Spectre de la Rose?

More soon. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, as ever. Please don't rush to finish your comments. My fellow conspirator and I have loads to be getting on with (supra). Tim riley (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'll wait till you've dealt with the earlier comments, so I don't bore you by repeating points already made. Brianboulton (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A most practical suggestion. I'll knock on your talk page when we have got our party line sorted out. I take grave exception to the suggestion that you could ever bore me. Pshaw! (a word I've seen written but have no idea how to pronounce). Tim riley (talk) 20:43, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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