Wikipedia:Peer review/Rossa Matilda Richter/archive1

Rossa Matilda Richter

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I've done quite a bit of work to this page over the last couple weeks. It's currently at GAN, but I'd like to continue to improve it after that for possible FAC (unless more experienced editors advise against it), hence adding it here as well. The reason is that, after reviewing a whole lot of sources, I feel like at this point, this article has the potential to be the best overall biography of the subject out there.

It's unlike most other topics I've worked on in that few of the sources are recent. Many or most are from the late 1800s and early 1900s. I've found quite a few, and there are going to be more if I gain access to other archives, but the additional sources I'm finding are increasingly redundant such that I think it only makes sense to look for more in order to hunt down missing biographical details.

About those biographical details. The most glaring omission is that I've not been able to track down an obituary or even a cause of death. Just the year. Details are increasingly sketchy after a major accident ended her career.

A particular question I have is how best to handle the "Image and legacy" section. I had previously had a series of sections akin to "career," a section about her many accidents, and this section. I've since folded accidents into the rest of the narrative, since it just seemed like better writing. "Image and legacy" is a little clumsy there at the end, but I worry that adding the more recent scholarship involving her (that which generally takes a feminist perspective, for example), into the rest of the article, may be more awkward. Anyway, looking forward to feedback about this or anything else. Thanks. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:58, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Review from Harrias ^talk

I'll do a more detailed review later, but I've found a couple of sources that might help with some more information:
- The Philadelphia Inquirer, 14 May 1905, Page 34 provides some detail on her recovery from her broken back.
- Daily Mirror, 11 February 1938, Page 3 gives her date of death as 8 December 1937, at Camberwell House, Peckham. Harrias ^talk 09:57, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Harrias: Thanks for these. I'm waiting for my newspapers.com subscription to be approved via TWL, but don't have any way of accessing the second (my library's archives for the Daily Mirror just go back to 1995). Does it have a similar clipping feature or do you think you could send it to me WP:RX-style? Going through the first link now. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:32, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - I think I can save a PDF or JPG and then email you it - let me have a go. Harrias ^talk 17:36, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Eugh, the Wikipedia email function doesn't allow attachments. Any chance you can email me, and then I can reply with the attachment? Harrias ^talk 17:39, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      - @Harrias: Done thanks. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:34, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      - Got it, added to article. Thanks again. An interesting detail is that it says she died at Camberwell House in Peckham, which looks to have been a mental hospital. Presumably because she had been affected by dementia of some sort? Unclear. Left the speculation out of the article, of course. Also, what an odd story to publish. It seems to be based on the unusual wording of the bequest? Anyway, thanks. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:46, 19 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Harrias: Thanks again for the sources. Just checking in to see if you still planned to do a review? No rush -- just determining if I should add it to the manually listed backlog. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 23:49, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, sorry, been a bit hectic. Harrias ^talk 10:50, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - No problem at all. Just wanted to confirm. I was primarily thinking about PR on the possible route to FAC, and who knows how long it'll sit in the GAN queue anyway, before that process can even start. :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:39, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

First thoughts are that the lead is a bit short for an article this long. I'd expect it to be roughly double the current length, but see what feels right with a bit more information.

Expanded it a bit. Still feels like it could be improved. Will revisit later, at the end of the PR process. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Interestingly, and it's a primary source, so we can't use it, but birth records on ancestry list her date of birth as 7 April 1860 in Lambeth, London. I have used sources from Ancestry before at FA, but that was in 2011, and I don't know how it would go down now. It'd be nice to find a reliable secondary source with the information, but it seems unlikely. I assume that they lied about her age to make it seem more impressive. Her older sister was called Henrietta.

Could you link to where you see that on ancestry.com? I'm searching the "historical records and person search" and I'm not seeing it come up. My sense is that if it's a primary source collected on ancestry.com, it might be ok to use, but not if it's user-generated content. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This one, I think. [1]. I'm not logged in on this computer, so it's hard to be sure. Harrias ^talk 11:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. Yeah, it looks like membership is required to see it. :/ — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:35, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Short, particularly one sentence, paragraphs are frowned upon, particularly for Featured articles; try to roll some of these together where logical.

Did a little combining. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Human cannonball at the Royal Aquarium

"..but born Samuel Wasgate (b. 1855)" Is the birth year of this other person particularly relevant to this article? I'd cut it. In fact, reading on, I think there is generally too much information provided on Farini and his son. Some information is clearly relevant, but I think it strays a bit too far from the subject of the article.

I cut this down a bit. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I will continue with more later: I'm being bugged by my four-year-old to play with her, which is making reviewing a bit tricky! Harrias ^talk 08:47, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just a general note that you flick between UK and US spellings (metres (UK) but theater (US)). Stick to one or the other; as she was English and lived mostly in the UK, I'd favour that. But then, I also live in the UK, so go figure... Harrias ^talk 21:20, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. "metres" was put in by the convert template, not me. Most UK spellings do not come naturally to me, so I would've written meters :). I fixed the "theater"s, but other US-specific spellings aren't going to easily jump out at me so please let me know if you come across others. Regarding conversion, I did have a couple meters-to-feet and a couple feet-to-meters. So I went ahead and changed the latter. I think I used both because it felt odd doing a conversion in order to do a conversion (i.e. some of the sources are American and some are British). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback so far, Harrias. Looking forward to any other thoughts you may have. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 15:38, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Starting in 1970, Farini dressed him.." 1870, clearly.

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"..and became known especially for.." The "especially" seems superfluous, I think this would be better simply as "..and became known for.."

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"..cite Richter was the first human cannonball." This should either be "..cite Richter as the first human cannonball." or "..cite that Richter was the first human cannonball."

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Their cannonball stunts different somewhat.." Should be differed, not different.

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As the Royal Aquarium was never really an actual aquarium (it didn't display fish... go figure...) it would be more correct to use "Aquarium" rather than "aquarium" in the article.

Weird. Did not know that. :) Certainly didn't read anything about fish in any of the sources... :) Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The length of the quotes in the "Richter was featured at the.." paragraph might be a concern at a future FAC, but should be fine for GAN.

Leaving alone for the time being. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"..and notes that she counted.." Noted, rather than notes.

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I assume it's because of the double conversion thing, but "about 27.4 metres" sounds weird. Having it to one decimal place, BUT saying "about" seems contradictory.

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"She also walked the tightrope, increasing the risk by sometimes forgoing the standard balancing pole." Do we know if there was a net below the tightrope? If so, it wouldn't increase the risk, but instead just the difficulty.

I cannot recall reading anything noting there was not a net, so probably safe to presume there was one. Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"She would also run, lie down, stand on one foot, put baskets on her feet, sit on the wire, spin around while holding it with her knees, .." This is a bit bland as a list, I don't know if we can at least make it "She would also perform a variety of tricks on the tightrope, such as..."?

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"..nearly a hundred feet down.." Needs a conversion.

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Accidents and public response

"In response, Robertson invited Cross to be fired out of the cannon himself." While this is only tangential to Richter herself, I feel this could do with some clarification. Do we know if this was in jest, seriousness, or nastiness?

Comes from page 187 of this book. I don't think I saw it anywhere else. Taken at face value, it seems like a real offer; perhaps one he knew wouldn't be taken up. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"out of the cannon himself. to say he Richter's first human cannonball accident..." Something odd going on at the start of this sentence?

Oops. Errant words. Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I assume there are no details of her first accident?

Very little, and little-to-nothing that seems reliable IMO. e.g. conflicting information in showbiz gossip columns, that seemed to be talking about another incident or otherwise seemed shaky at best. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly with the second, my assumption is that she fell through; is that right?

Yes. Updated to say so explicitly. Rotten net. Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Punctuation inside a quote still affects the sentence, so "..be it said, so popular?" and an 1880 issue.." should probably be "..be it said, so popular?" An 1880 issue.."

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"They'd just no right to take away me living aif I loved it." aif? Presumably a typo for if?

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Touring with Barnum & Bailey and other circuses

"amounting to 120-200 pounds" I would switch to "amounting to 120–200 pounds sterling" (Note the endash, per MOS:ENTO).

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"..she does so with a normal train ticket:" Switch "does" to "did".

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"first and second-class ticket" I know it's in a quote, but might as well correct this to have a hanging hyphen: "first- and second-class ticket".

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"In 1880, while the English Parliament debated a bill which proposed to ban dangerous acts like Richter's, she and Farini took their show out of the country." This was already mentioned at the end of the previous section. Decide where it fits best, and remove the other.

Y Left information about the proposed bill in the accidents section and moved them leaving the country below. Seems that the "touring with Barnum & Bailey and other circuses" section may need renaming, since only in the third of three paragraphs does it talk about that. Will come back to this towards the end, pending other feedback. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"..was best known as human cannonball.." Should be "was best known as a human cannonball".

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Opera

"Richter married George Oscar Starr (1849-1915)" I'd get rid of the year range, it's not something typical in WP articles.

Y — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Will continue. Harrias ^talk 10:43, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good stuff. Thanks again. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Rhododendrites: Just to let you know that I'm currently suffering from some sort of vertigo/silent migraine issue and looking at screens makes things worse, so I might not around for a while (though fingers crossed it gets sorted soon). So while I am hoping to finish off this review, if I'm not around and don't get the chance, you know why: I haven't just forgotten or given up on it. Harrias ^talk 14:06, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(forgoing ping to avoid drawing attention to this screen) -- no problem at all. I hope you feel better! Your feedback so far has been really helpful, and I'm not in any real rush (who knows how long GAN will take anyway). :) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:11, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]