Wikipedia:Peer review/Songs, sketches and monologues of Dan Leno/archive1

Songs and sketches of Dan Leno

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Dan Leno, the leading English music hall comedian and Victorian stage actor was a popular music hall performer and was chiefly known for his many dame pantomime roles that were popular at London's Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, from 1888 to 1904. During his career, he originated and popularised many songs in his music hall act; some of which were recorded and released to the general public. A few months ago, I significantly contributed to the main article and co-nominated it at FAC, and it was promoted to FA status. As I went along, I extensively researched his recordings and songs and have compiled this short list which now supports the main article. I feel confident that this list is a thorough and comprehensive collection of Leno's works and now, together with Ssilvers, we intend to submit it to WP:FLC for consideration. Before doing so however, we are submitting it for this peer review in the hope that we gain some knowledge about FLC before it's listing. We hope that you enjoy reading this article and look forward to all comments and suggestions. Thanks -- Cassianto^Talk 18:26, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking forward to comments. It would be particulary helpful if anyone with experience at FLC would comment about what they think will be needed to pass the Featured List criteria and to let us know what stumbling blocks we might need to watch out for, since we are not experienced at FLC. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comments The only issues are that the tables do not meet WP:ACCESS, see also WP:DTT. The other is that this article lists his songs, so I suggest to move to "List of songs by Dan Leno" or similar. As long as their are no albums or other recordings by him, the current title is confusing. Otherwise ready for FLC: Regards.--GoP_T^C_N 12:28, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for your comment. A personal preference would be to keep it all together and go with a name change instead. Could we call this article "The music of Dan Leno" or similar and retain this articles current content? If not, we will have to move. Ss your thoughts? -- Cassianto^Talk 15:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to be sure what the commenter means. Cassianto, can you ask him/her for more details, please? I'd love to hear from more commenters. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:12, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Done of his/her talk page. In the interests of continuity I will copy my points here:

Thanks for your helpful comment. Could you be a little more specific on a couple of things;

"The tables do not meet WP:ACCESS, see also WP:DTT."

• Which parts of the tables need attention? It's our first FLC so we are not fluent in the criteria or table formatting.

• The two tables need to have a format to meet the access requirements. I am not fluent in English so it is hard to explain properly, so I just give you this example: List of songs recorded by Chrisye. You should change the row lines to "!scope=row" (note the exclamation mark) and column lines to "!scope=col". To avoid bolding add "plainrowheaders" somewhere inside the class parameter. If you want more information I suggest asking User:RexxS, who is an expert in this field.--GoP_T^C_N 18:13, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Very helpful, thank you GoP! Cassianto, can you see if you can get RexxS would give us a review? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:39, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

"The other is that this article lists his songs"

• Could we rename the article so it doesn't specify a discography and instead call it The music of Dan Leno or The songs of Dan Leno and retain the one article? Any clarification would be great! -- Cassianto^Talk 19:50, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

• I think this is a great idea.--GoP_T^C_N 18:13, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• I shall make it so. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:39, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

• Since some of these are sketches, I changed the name to "The songs and sketches of Dan Leno". Better? -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:32, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I've had a look at the table to see how well it meets the accessibility guidelines of WP:DTAB. To be frank, you've done the most important part by identifying and marking up the column headers with ! scope="col", so that's a good start. The reason for the extra markup is because some visually-impaired visitors use a screen reader that allows then to navigate around a table in any direction. They may want to read down the column of notes in the second table, for example. What the extra markup does is to identify for each cell a column header and a row header that can be announced by the screen reader in conjunction with that cell. For example when they reach 11th row of 3rd column of the second table, then instead of just hearing "Written by Leno", they could hear something like "I'll Be Waiting For Him Tonight", "Notes", "Written by Leno" - I hope you would agree that would be much better for them. For that to happen, we have to use not only ! scope="col" for the column headers, but also we have to choose and to mark up the row headers (I'd suggest the titles are best for this) with the markup ! scope="row". That also alters the formatting of those cells making them bold and centred (i.e. headers), so we often return them to normal weight and left-aligned by using the class "plainrowheaders" in the first line of the wikitable. I've sandboxed examples of how you might mark up the two tables at User:RexxS/The music of Dan Leno - have a look at the edit mode to see the wiki-markup of course. Please feel free to take/use any part of what I've done there, or ask me to show you any changes you want to the formatting - as you can see I've left-aligned the notes to fit in with the left-aligned titles, but you can have centred text if you prefer it (I prefer the left-aligned, but that's merely a personal preference). Does that make sense? I'd be happy to go over it step-by-step if you wish, or you could compare what I'm suggesting here with this edit and the two subsequent ones on List of space stations which added the row headers to a table there. Let me know if I can help any further, and good luck with the FLC. Ping me for a review when you get there at least. --RexxS (talk) 23:16, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow! Thanks for the great advice. Yes it did get a bit technical but your sandbox really helped illustrate your points. I agree it is important for visually impaired people and doing that extra bit of work makes it all worth it. I have used your examples and replaced the old tables with them. I hope that's ok. Hopefully the table formatting part of this review is now complete and there are no further issues with this. Could you just check if I have done this correctly and let me know of any other issues re the tables? -- Cassianto^Talk 11:08, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you found it helpful. Please treat any demos I make as public domain: I don't need attribution and you're free to make whatever use you wish of them. You've understood what is needed perfectly and I don't believe anyone will find fault with your tables from an accessibility viewpoint. You may see requests on other lists for table captions, which are useful to screen readers, but are often redundant to the second-level headers. I usually suggest captions if the table is separated from the section header by substantial piece of text (see List of field marshals of the British Army for example), but as in this case there's little value in repeating the section header with a table caption if one immediately follows the other. Your article is an entertaining read, and I hope to see it at FLC soon. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 14:30, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much RexxS and GoP. I guess we're ready to submit this to FLC now.... -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:34, 2 July 2012 (UTC)