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The Tower House

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I believe it is a very comprehensive account of a London house, which was built by William Burges, a master architect. The house was a real labour of love for Burges and some of the detail he put into it was a fine example of his prowess and talent, not only as an architect, but as a furniture maker and jewel craftsman. You can marvel at a room of the interior here. I'm convinced that this is comprehensive enough to make it worth promoting, so hope to see some pointers here before we take to FAC. …

Thanks, ♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim

[edit]
  • General
    • There are too many WP:OVERLINKs in the main text (and that's not counting the table near the end, where there are more): the V&A, Narcissus washstand and Charles Handley-Read are linked three times apiece, and there are duplicate links to Woodland House and Little Holland House. Richard Party-Popper-Puller is not linked at first mention in the main text, but gets a link rather late in the day in the final paragraph.
Done.
  • Lead
    • "Burges purchased" – definitely one of those tongue twisters like "eleven benevolent elephants". Perhaps "Burges bought"?
Done.
    • "by the likes of sculptor …" – three quibbles here: first the false title (first of several); secondly who are "the likes of" these people?; and thirdly aren't sculptors artists? Perhaps "interior decoration by the sculptor Thomas Nicholls and the painter Henry Stacy Marks, among others"?
Done.
    • [Merlin Minshall – Good Lord! I'd forgotten all about him. He used to bore us all to sleep on the train between London and Norwich in the 1970s.]
Noted.
  • Location
    • Second para, second sentence: there seem to be a main verb and predicate missing here: we have "X, whose house did this…" and then no payoff.
Done.
  • Construction and craftsmanship
    • "finding the plot on Melbury Road" – why the Americanism "on so-and-so street" rather than the English "in …..", as in the earlier part of the sentence?
Done.
    • "Sculptor Thomas Nicholls" – another tabloidese false title; and do we need "stone" twice in the sentence?
Done.
    • Regent Street – worth a blue link (asked the retired librarian of the Crown Estate)? And the Strand, Covent Garden, Long Acre and Southampton Row too. I don't press the point. I sometimes think we all link far too much. Anyhow, pray ponder.
Done. But need to properly do the Strand. Now Done.
    • "to undertake mural paintings" – is that the same as to paint murals?
Done.
    • Alphabet frieze – double quotes, not single, please. (Manual of Style diktat)
Done.
    • "Weeks painted legendary lovers in the drawing-room" – could we have this the other way round, as "in the drawing-room Weeks painted legendary lovers"? Perhaps it's just me, but the existing wording conjures up What the Butler Saw. I'm sorry, I'll be all right in a minute.
Done.
  • Burges and after
    • "completed some of his unfinished projects" – a bit ambiguous: better to say "Burges's" than "his" here, I think.
Done.
  • 1970s to present
    • I wonder about the validity of adding 2015 translations of 1970 property prices. The RPI or CPI (as used here, I see) bears little relation to the rip-roaring inflation of house prices over the same period. £1m would buy you a fairly modest flat in Holland Park in 2015, not a Grade I listed mini-mansion like this.
Not done. I don't like them either, nor do I think they are particularly accurate. Should I remove?
  • Interior
    • In-line attribution for the opening quote, please.
Done.
  • Ground floor
    • "each one relevant to their respective rooms" – you've changed from singular to plural within one phrase
Done.
  • Library
    • More single quotes where the MoS requires doubles. Same in next section.
Done.
  • Drawing room
    • "On wall" – missing an indefinite or definite article – not sure which.
Done.
    • I am confused by this section. If the room is "devoted to" Chaucer's House of Fame, how do Jack and the Beanstalk and Little Red Riding Hood fit in? It is true that my only reading of The House of Fame was so long ago that it was still on the Recent Fiction lists, but I don't recall either of them in there.
Done. Sort of.
  • First floor
    • Isn't the plural "fleurs-de-lis"?
Done.
  • Garden
    • mediaeval – instead of the "medieval" used everywhere else in the article.
Done.

That's all from me. There's a lot of quibbling, so let me add that this implacable loather of Victorian Gothic nonetheless enjoyed the article, and will be pleased to add a friendly voice at FAC if you ping me then. – Tim riley talk 21:34, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Tim! @KJP1: ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Have addressed most of these, I hope. Two outstanding issues. I agree about the price conversions but not sure I should just remove them. Thoughts? Incidentally, in the current planning spat between Page and Robbie Williams (which merits a mention??), I've seen newspaper valuations of the Tower House of around £20 million. That strikes me as much more realistic than even £4.5M, bearing in mind that Robbie Williams paid £17.5M for Woodlands in 2013, although that is a much bigger house. As to the decorative theme of the Drawing Room, I shall go and consult the Charles Handley-Read Country Life article of about 1969 which I've recently purchased. Thanks and all the best. KJP1 (talk) 08:25, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The 4.5m is the equiv value of 350,000 in 1973 values in 2015, showing the vast inflation in house prices over the same period. Perhaps a comparison with the average 1973 UK house price would be better. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK - think the Dining (not Drawing) Room theme issue is resolved. The theme appears to be more about Fame and famous stories (fairy tales). Not my interpretation but Crook's, so no personal research. But really, trying to work out what was going through Billy Burges's mind in some of his designs is almost impossible. What was the Elephant Inkstand all about? Have also tried to update the references by using the 2013 version of William Burges and the High Victorian Dream and re-naming The Strange Genius of William Burges as Crook 1981. Hope to heavens I've got them right, considering past controversies! Interesting sidelight on prices (see above). The 1981 version of High Victorian Dream cost £40 in that year - a sum my mother considered monstrous for a book. The 2013 version cost me £45, which is ridiculously cheap. The very reverse of house prices.

Re-reading the whole article, I think it needs a good scrub. It doesn't flow in places, I'm not sure the structure's quite right and there seems to be quite a lot of extraneous detail. I'll also let Gareth Kegg know we're working on it, as he added so much to my original stub and it's more "his" article than mine. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 11:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks KJP. Yes it might need a bit of tweaking.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:09, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt

[edit]

I also had concerns about text flow, but I see that's covered above, so I'll confine myself to glitches. Very few, especially in the architecture sections.

Lede
  • "for himself" suggest possibly "as a personal residence"
Done.
  • "and the last" and the " suggest minor tweaking to avoid the double "and"
Done.
  • " with Bath stone dressings and green slates from Cumberland, with" double with should be massaged.
Done.
  • "that Burges designed, have been dispersed" don't see any great need for the comma.
Done.
Location
  • Some uncited material.
NOT Done. To address later.
Construction
  • " Burges received no further major commissions" received or accepted?
The former, unfortunately. But having worked for Bute, the world's richest man, perhaps there was nowhere else to go.
  • "He agreed to purchase the land from the Earl of Ilchester, the owner of the Holland Estate, in December 1875. The ground rent was £100 per annum." An American reading this might assume that he purchased the freehold, which was obviously not the case. Can this be clarified?
Done.
  • "the capitals and corbels and the chimneypieces. " and ... and
Done.
70s
  • ""little bastards" inhabiting the Tower House, who then left Harris alone" I assume these were vandals or squatters?
Not Done. Actually, I think they are supposed to have been ghosts. I don't like this part, although it is sourced. In brief, Danny La Rue, who visited the house with Liberace, when the latter was intending to buy it, found the place unnerving. Later, La Rue spoke about his visit to the then owner, Richard Harris, who said that he had purchased toys for the "little bastards" (ghosts?) inhabiting the nurseries Burges had constructed in the garret and that they had then left Harris undisturbed. It's all very odd, not least why on earth Burges, a confirmed bachelor, thought he would need two nurseries in the house. I'm really not sure what to do about this. Nor do I own either Danny La Rue's or Richard Harris's autobiographies, so I can't really investigate it further.
It's clear from Harris that he believed that there were ghosts of children (!) inhabiting the nursery at the top of the house. When I wrote this, I was loved the sense of colour it gave the article, and the unusual triad that Liberace, La Rue and Harris made. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gareth. It absolutely does give colour! Maybe it's just my old, grey Puritan streak and my not believing in ghosts. But that's POV, it's sourced and Harris, Liberace and Danny La Rue had all been inside the Tower House which is more than I'm ever likely to do. So it stays. KJP1 (talk) 19:46, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it's worth mentioning what band Mr. Page has been associated with.
Done.
Architecture.
  • "with a marble statue of a boy with" I've passed by one or two "with ... with" that I thought were justified, but I think this one should be tweaked.
Done.
References and so forth
  • There are a number of ref errors, affecting 4, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 34.
Not Done. Will address.
  • Ref 42 I suspect the page number is an error.
Not Done. Will address.
That's all I have. Look forward to reading it again when it's ready for FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:59, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Really appreciate your comments and your time. KJP1 (talk) 19:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto. Thank you so much to everybody who has worked hard on this review. This article seems to brings me more pleasure than any other. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 19:42, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's because you can sense that it was a real labour of love of Burges and sense the passion and brilliance which went into his pieces. I'd say that's what makes it seem so much of a pleasure to tap into and experience when you edit it and the furniture pieces!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:41, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very brief comments

  • On my screen, the red dot pinpointing the location on the map disappears when the image is clicked on and no street names are given. The shape of the shaded part in the inset map is different from the main one. These things make the main map of minimal value.
  • The first image of the building is not very different from the one in Exterior and design.
Done - by exchanging it. Oh god, what would we give for some non-copyright interior photos.
  • Scholarship is more of a gloss on some of the sources used than anything informative about the house.
A fair point. I shall look at this when we review it. I've changed this to "Architectural coverage" and fleshed it out a, very, little. Done?
  • "between 1875–81". Between A and B, or rephrase.
Done. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to come back to it if I have time. EddieHugh (talk) 20:00, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers Eddie.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:21, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Hchc2009

[edit]

A worthy topic for an article! Thoughts follow...

  • I found the first paragraph of the location section a little confusing, and thought it could easily be simplified to something like "The Tower House is located at 29 (originally 9) Melbury Road in the Kensington district of London." The reader probably doesn't need exact directions in an encyclopaedia after all.

Perhaps it's a tad too detailed, but I'm been following a fairly detailed location in other house articles to avoid a very short section!♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:28, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I'm not sure that it needs a section of its own, as the location isn't all that critical to the story of the house, and could easily just be part of the history; it's not just that it was detailed, though, but that personally for me it was also confusing - I had to try and visualise the tube station, the roads, the junctions etc., and I don't know Kensington that well! Hchc2009 (talk) 07:19, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done? By removal of much of the detail. Hope every one is ok with this. It can, of course, be easily located by anyone wanted to visit through Google maps or some such.
  • Worth checking that the reader can tell who the quotes are from by the in-line wording; I can't tell who the "experience of twenty years...", "pledge to the spirit of gothic" etc. is supposed to be from for example.
Doing these as I go through. Now Done, I hope.
  • I don't believe that the Consumer Price Index figures include housing projects, and the Measuring Worth webpage that's cited in the article advises against using it for this purpose (the template used here notes that it is Original Research to use it in this way). You could use one of the project measures from the site instead.
Not done. Sorry, but I just don't know how to amend these. Help! Now Done, by removal.
  • " In a shop in Lincoln, Betjeman discovered the Narcissus washstand, made by Burges for his rooms in Buckingham Street and subsequently moved to the Tower House." I couldn't work out when this was supposed to have happened - before he moved there? Later?
Done, sort of. This is one area, amongst another, where the flow of the article needs revision, once we've got the content in. Have now moved to the furniture section as BB also pointed out the chronology wasn't right.
  • "The Zodiace settle", "Philosophy cabinet" etc. are mentioned once in the lead but never explained until they appear much later under Betjeman, when they're not really described either. Worth checking the consistency of how you refer to them.
Not quite sure what is meant here. I can certainly add a little on each of the major pieces, if that is what's required. Maybe it actually needs a broader section on the furniture, which was absolutely central to the overall design. Could that go before the table of contents?
  • Any chance of getting some dates into the history section headings? I suspect many readers won't know when Betjeman was alive etc. and you have to dig into the section to find out when he was using it.
Not done. Will work on this. Now Done, I hope.
  • Worth explaining who David Bowie is in-line, like Page et al?
Done. Not being a fan, is "pop star" appropriate?
  • " with floor depths being sufficient to support rooms four or five times their size. " - I wasn't sure what this meant.
Done. Take the point and I don't think the comment did more than repeat the effect of the R. Norman Shaw remark. Have removed, therefore.
  • "At the time of Burges's death, the letterbox, in the form of the messenger Mercury wearing a tunic powdered with letters, was near the front door." - I'm probably being simplistic, but aren't letterboxes normally near the front door of a British townhouse?
Done. A very fair point!
  • "Figures within the chimneypiece represent "parts of speech, noun, verb, preposition" etc." - the "etc." seemed odd here
Done.

Cheers Hc.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:21, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Averting my eyes from the bushfires raging elsewhere, can I thank you Hchc2009 for your very helpful comments, which I shall address shortly. Can I also immediately take you up on your offer to produce a ground plan. I think plans of the house would greatly enhance the article. Does the second external link give you sufficient to produce such plans? I can certainly look through my collection to see what else I've got, which I could then scan to Commons, if it doesn't. Thanks again. KJP1 (talk) 13:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think I should be able to work off that data to produce an original work. Any preference for whether the rooms are labelled in words ("the xx room") or letters ("a", "b" etc.)? My usual preference is the latter as it makes the image more widely usable in other languages, but happy to be steered either way. Hchc2009 (talk) 14:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent - many thanks indeed. Let's go for "a", "b" etc. and we can do a key to complement. KJP1 (talk) 16:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from BB

[edit]

I see that you have had quite a few comments. Thus far I have only managed the first half of the article:

Lead
  • First line: I don't think the previous number is noteworthy enough for the first line of the lead, if at all. I see this information doesn't appear in the main text.
Done.
  • Third paragraph: I would begin the second sentence "Many items...", and I'd also revise the wording so that the word "including" didn't appear twice in the sentence.
Done.
Location
  • A reference is required for the information relating to Lord Leighton and his house.
Done.
Construction and craftsmanship
  • "A basic cost of £6,000 was agreed" – I'm not sure what "basic cost" means. Is it different from the total cost? If so, what didn't the basic cost cover?
Done.
  • Are "Simpson and Sons of the Strand" anything to do with Simpson's-in-the-Strand? I wouldn't have thought that the restaurant dealt in decorative tiles, but it's odd to find two businesses with the same name in the same street.
Not sure, but I will have a look. I think this [1] and this [2] indicate they are not linked and that the name and the proximity are coincidental.
Done.
  • "The firm was later employed by Richard Harris in his restoration of the Tower House". This is the first mention of Harris in the main text, and I suggest a link. But this information, which relates to the 1970s, is out of place here and should be inserted further down. (Later: I see that it is mentioned later, so it can be safely deleted here.
Done.
Done.
Burges and after
  • Slightly odd construction in this section, with Burges dead and buried in the first paragraph, but alive and kicking (literally, it seems) in the second. There may be a better way of presenting this material.
Not done. But there is a better way of presenting it - I need a longer section on Burges's time at the house, his dogs, interests etc. I can and will do this when revising the whole text.
  • In the last paragraph, "It was then purchased..." → "The house was then purchased...", otherwise "it" is undefined.
Done.
John Betjeman
  • Again there is chronological confusion here. You begin by recording that Betjeman acquired the remainder of the lease, together with some furniture, in 1962. You then tell the washstand story, which appears to follow naturally. But in fact, this happened nine years earlier, in 1953, on the occasion of Waugh's 50th birthday. It is also going too far to describe the washstand as the "centrepiece" of Waugh's Pinfold novel. It features in it, in that Waugh fictionalises his own misremembering of some of the piece's details, as part of the process of his hero's mental decline, but this is a single incident in the novel. You could more correctly say "who featured it in his 1957 novel..." I suggest a reworking of this paragraph. (The linked article on the washstand should also be amended).
Done. and Done.
  • You've deleted the washstand story altogether, which is a pity in a way. Although it's not central to the article, it added a little bit of interest. I can provide th refs you need, if you want to reinstate it. Otherwise, the Betjeman section is too short, really, to stand alone. If you're not going to use the washstand story I think you should absorb the Betjeman section into "Burges and after". I see you have transferred the washstand storyt o the Furniture section, which is wise. Without it, the Betjeman section is too short, really, to stand alone, and you should consider absorbing it into "Burges and after". Brianboulton (talk) 21:58, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Would quite like to keep it as a separate section and am adding, as is Dr. B, to address this. KJP1 (talk) 22:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are loose ends in this section. Betjeman was given the last 2 years of the lease, but I gather never lived in the house. So who owned it after 1964? Who applied for and got grants for the restoration? Who received the £70,000 that Richard Harris paid for it?
Done. I just don't know, and will need to investigate further. Was it, is it, still leasehold and the ultimate owner was and remains the Ilchester Estate? A little digging suggests that it is. The exceptionally wealthy Charlotte Townshend [3]is now the owner of the Ilchester Estate and certainly appears to own the freehold of Woodland House. I see no reason why her ancestors would have sold the freehold on the Tower House, which they certainly held in the 1960s. I shall see if I can find confirmation. A bit more digging. The Survey of London states that "Burges was granted a lease in February 1877 for ninety years from 1875 at an annual ground rent of £50 for the first two years and £100 thereafter." So that takes us from 1875 to 1965 Which just about fits, give or take a year, with Betjeman inheriting "the remaining 2 years of the lease" on Mrs. Graham's death in 1962. So, can we assume Betjeman gave up the lease in 1964/5 and the ownership then reverted to the freeholder, then the 8th Earl of Ilchester, Walter Angelo Fox-Strangeways (1887-1970) and that a further lease/or even the freehold, was then sold to Robert Harris by him, or by his son Maurice Fox-Strangways, 9th Earl of Ilchester, who inherited in 1970? Not sure how we confirm any of this? KJP1 (talk) 09:55, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But does this [4] suggest that the freehold was sold?
I find that records of the grants made by the GLC are held at Kew. I have requested a copy of the relevant record which should be useful.
I should have checked Crook's notes more thoroughly. I'm hoping the detail is now sufficiently clear. Betjeman did not extend the lease, which reverted to the Ilchester Estate in 1964. In 1965/6, Lady Turnbull took a new lease. If it was 90 years, as Burges's had been from 1875-1965, then it will come up for renewal in 2055. I regret that I am unlikely to be around to bid, let alone in a position to fund it!
1970s to present
  • I don't know what's going on here: " La Rue later met Harris who told him that he had bought children's toys for the "little bastards" inhabiting the Tower House, who then left Harris alone." Can you enlighten?
This is a problematic section. In a nutshell, I think it is saying that "La Rue, when visiting with Liberace, thought the house haunted. In a subsequent conversation with Harris, the latter confirmed this but said he had placated the child ghosts inhabiting the nurseries, the "little bastards", by providing them with toys, after which they ceased to be a nuisance." I'm really not sure where to go with this.
In an attempt to resolve this, I have just purchased "From Drags to Riches - My Autobiography" by Mr La Rue. Once it arrives, I shall see if we can sort it out. The things I do for Burges!
  • I would delete the information "The house is not open to the public". We are not writing a tourist guide.
I appreciate the point about it not being a guidebook. But I wonder if the fact that the Tower House, alone of all of Burges's major works, cannot be viewed is notable. It's certainly very infuriating, although quite understandable.

Whether you want my musings on the Architecture sections I don't know, but I'll return to the review on Monday. Brianboulton (talk) 00:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Mr Boulton, I would certainly be very grateful for your comments on the Architecture sections, as I am for your comments above. They are extremely helpful and will much improve the article. I shall incorporate them as soon as I can but that may not be today, unfortunately. Actually, I find I do have time. With thanks and best regards. KJP1 (talk) 07:28, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks BB.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:27, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Architecture sections:

Exterior and design
  • "Luke Fildes would describe" → "Luke Fildes described"
Done.
  • "The house is not large, its floor-plan being little more than 50 feet (15 m) square". I take it that by this you mean 50 feet x 50 feet (2,500 square feet), and this needs to be clear. I'd suggest you refer to its floor space, rather then "floor-plan" which doen't convey much.
Done, I hope.
Interior
  • Bridget Cherry needs a brief introduction, on first mention. She is spelt "Bridgett" in the references, which I assume is a mistake.
  • Handley-Read also needs introducing on first mention. At present he is introduced further on, at his second mention.
Done and Done. Will amend the references.
Ground floor
  • I've removed the unsightly white space between the Ground floor and Library sections. It was unnecessary and distracting.
Thank you.
  • What is "Buckingham Street"?:
Done.
Library
  • You begin: "The library featured a sculptured mantlepiece" – why the past tense? Is the mantelpiece no longer there?
Done - it is still there.
Dining room
  • The Victorians had "a horror of food smells" – needs attribution to Handley-Read
Done.
First floor
  • A lot of image clutter around here. I would ditch the quote box
  • "On the first floor are two main bedrooms and an armoury". This is inconsistent with what it says in the Exterior and design section
Done.
  • "The frieze below the Mermaid fireplace has been described as "proto-art noveau" – by whom?
Done.
Done.
Garden
  • " planned according to those pleasances..." etc. Should be attributed.
to be Done. Now Done.
Furniture
  • "The Zodiac settle was acquired by the Higgins in 2011". Who, or what, is "the Higgins"?

Originally the Cecil Higgins At Gallery, in Bedford, named after the Victorian manufacturer in whose house the museum is located. Now called The Higgins. I hope it is clear in the text?

Architectural coverage
  • General academic usage requires "master's", not "masters"
Done.
Done.
  • I have again closed some white space, by a slight reformatting of the citation columns
Noted, many thanks.

Review complete. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much indeed. The peer review has certainly improved the article. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 18:36, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Summary

[edit]

Dr. B, good to see that you're back. A very productive peer review. For my own benefit, I'm just trying to summarise where we are:

  • Awaiting comments on the architectural sections from Brianboulton
  • Awaiting plans from Hchc2009
  • The price comparisons have been removed, with which I hope everyone is content.
  • Issues around Danny La Rue's comments on the house - I hope that his autobiography, which is on its way, will assist.
  • Is the map now ok or is EddieHugh's concern still valid? Not my area of expertise.
  • I will add some dates to the history sections to address Hchc2009's concerns.
  • Can we find anything more on the "ownership" from circa 1964 to circa 1970? I suspect that it was the Ilchester Estate throughout and I hope that the GLC grants records I have requested will confirm this.
  • References - Eric Corbett has done a superb job, after my ham-fisted attempts, and I think we are good on these.
  • Some more detail on the rooms themselves, which I shall pick up.
  • A full read through/polish to improve the prose/flow.

Now, have I missed anything? KJP1 (talk) 22:39, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Betjeman considered that the house would be too costly to run permanently, with potential liability for £10,000 of renovations upon the expiration of the lease.[18] As a result, the Tower House was unoccupied between 1962 and 1966, during which time it was vandalised. According to Betjeman and Candida Lycett Green, the agents intentionally refused to let it and allowed the house to decline as they wanted to demolish the building and redevelop the site.[20] With the aid of grants from the Ministry of Housing and Local Government and Greater London Council, restoration of the house began in 1966.[6]" -there seems to be something missing here. Firstly it's not clear what happened between it being too costly and it being unoccupied, did he just leave, put it on the market or what? The source I added yesterday and a few others state that about the "bastard agents", which indicates a degree of resentment towards them from Betjeman. I think we need to find out a bit more on the background here. Also it's not clear then who asked for a grant and why there was a change in decision to demolish it and to restore it, and why the government did so.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. B - as indicated, I have ordered a copy of the GLC grant records for the period which may shed some light on this....
Done. "I should have checked Crook's notes more thoroughly. I'm hoping the detail is now sufficiently clear. Betjeman did not extend the lease, which reverted to the Ilchester Estate in 1964. In 1965/6, Lady Turnbull took a new lease. If it was 90 years, as Burges's had been from 1875-1965, then it will come up for renewal in 2055. I regret that I am unlikely to be around to bid, let alone in a position to fund it!" - I think we're ok now.
  • "The windows of the stair turret approaching the first floor represent "the Storming of the Castle of Love"." -not clear here what the Storming of the Castle of Love actually is..
And I can deal with this.... Now Done.

I think we also need the floor plans from Hchc2009

On the case... Hchc2009 (talk) 17:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, will wait until that's settled before nomming anyway!♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:25, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ok Dr. With the plans, I think we are good to go. KJP1 (talk) 21:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The plans are pretty much there now, just need to do the labelling. Hchc2009 (talk) 12:48, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And finished. I've added it into the article at the bottom of the architecture section. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Hchc2009, they look great and really enhance the article. Dr. B, I think we're now good to go if you want to hit the button. KJP1 (talk) 17:10, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Give it a while longer, see if Schro and Cass have anything to say.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cassianto

[edit]
  • Why do we link London in the lede? I'm sure most people would know where London is.
Done - and good to see you back. KJP1 (talk) 14:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! CassiantoTalk 16:00, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Design, construction and craftsmanship 1875-8

  • Watch out for the incorrect hyphen which really should be a dash.
Done.
  • This is the first mention of Burges in the body so I think a full introduction is required.
Done.
  • Link to Bayswater?
Done. But need to go check it's right.
  • "Burges agreed to purchase the leasehold of the plot in Melbury Road from the Earl of Ilchester" -- I would say "agreed to" is redundent here and could be struck. Let's cut to the case and just say "purchased".
Done.
  • Why is "Alphabet" quoted?
Done. If italics are better?
No dont use italics. You could say Burges named it the "Alphabet room" or something like that. We will then see that the quotes are a result of Burges calling it that. CassiantoTalk 16:21, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done. By removing Alphabet entirely.

Burges and after: 1878-1962

  • Watch out for the incorrect hyphen which really should be a dash.
Done.
  • He entertained his wide circle of friends; to dinner with the wine served from decanters..." Oddly placed semi-colon.
Done.
  • "The decoration of his bedroom hints at another of Burges's passions, a fondness for opium. Stylised poppies covered the panels of a cupboard set next to his bed." -- I would combine this last sentence with the next (short) para giving his death. Very much relevent to each other.
Done.
  • "Burges was buried at the cemetery at West Norwood" -- Awkward. How about just using the full link instead of piping it which causes an at/at repetition?
Done.
  • The last para of this section finishes without a citation.
To do.
Done.

Betjeman to Turnbull: 1962-70

  • Watch out for the incorrect hyphen which really should be a dash.
Done.
  • "In 1957, the Tower House..." -- American comma
Done.
  • I fixed some awkwardness.
Much appreciated.
  • "prey to vandalism"...fine, but it would equally suffer the effects of neglect too. Neglect would cover all I think.
Done. By adding neglect to vandalism. The vandalism was tragic, involving the unlawful removal of some significant items and I'd like to mention it specifically.
  • The last para of this section finishes without a citation.
To do.
Done. Although a slight concern. Callan, which I don't have, apparently states Harris bought it in 1970. Crook, which I do have, definitely states 1969. I've gone with the latter.

Harris and Page: 1970 to the present

  • ...to the present what? Not sure about this title.
Done. Any better?
  • "Meeting La Rue later, Harris told him that he had found the house haunted by the ghosts of children from an orphanage which previously stood on the site and had placated them by the purchase of toys." -- As mad as a barrel load of frogs these thespians!
Indeed!
Done. Much better and incorporated.

Exterior and design

  • "green slates from Cumberland - on the roof I presume?
Done.
  • "Stair" would be the singular form of stairs. Staircase would be better if that's what you mean?
Done.

Interior

  • All good.
I thank you.

Ground floor

  • "Burges's office in 15 Buckingham Street." --at 15 Buckingham Street?
Done.
  • "A flower marks the door to the garden, with the front door marked by a key." -- marks/marked
Done.

Library

  • " "most celebrated of all Burges's jokes" -- who said this?
Everybody! Sorry, it was C.H-R and is now Done.

Drawing room

  • "On the wall opposite to the library fireplace, an opening leads into the drawing room. Three stained glass windows are set in ornamented marble linings,[6] and opposite the windows, Burges placed the "Zodiac settle". -- On the wall opposite the library fireplace, is an opening which leads into the drawing room. Inside, there are three stained glass windows which are set in ornamented marble linings. Opposite the windows, is a "Zodiac settle" which Burges placed there during his residency"?
Done. With a bit more tweaking. Hopefully ok.

Dining room

  • "cutlery and plate" -- plates?
No, I think plate, in the sense of metal wares.

First floor

Excellent, thanks.

Garden

  • The garden at the back of the Tower House featured raised flowerbeds which the cultural historian, Caroline Dakers, describes as being "planned according to those pleasances depicted in medieval romances; beds of scarlet tulips, bordered with stone fencing" -- Is the garden still like this?
Just don't know. One of the many sorrows of not being able to see the Tower House.
Looking on GoogleEarth, while one can clearly see the house with its conical tower, the garden is so shaded and filled with trees that one couldn't see a statue of a boy were he to be holding an ostrich. KJP1 (talk) 16:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Last bit to do more soonest. CassiantoTalk 15:59, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm happy with the responses given. Ending complete, final read through done and I have no further comments. A fine example of the kind of articles we should expect to see on WP. CassiantoTalk 16:53, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
CassiantoTalk - Really appreciate your input and good to be working with you again. KJP1 (talk) 16:56, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, some excellent points and edits, cheers Cass!.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:24, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat

[edit]

A little late to the party, which means it's slim picking for me, but the following thoughts occurred to me…

A tad tardy, but very welcome! Under pressure from me, the Dr.'s pressed the FAC button but I shall address your very helpful comments now. KJP1 (talk) 22:10, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1878 to 1962

  • "immortalized in paintings": you eschew the Oxfordian ~ize elsewhere in favour of ~ise
Done.
  • "He was 53 years old." A little short: perhaps run on from the previous sentient with a semi colon?
Done.

1962 to 1969

  • "£4000 from the Historic Buildings Council and £3,000 from": one with a comma, one without?
Done.

1969 onwards

  • "neighboring": a jarring Americanism!
Done. Hopefully "adjacent" is less jarring.
Oops, that was my fault! CassiantoTalk 00:00, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Interior

Done.
  • "fantasy (Burges) created": Are you adding Burges here? If so, square brackets are more appropriate
Done.

Excellent work; please drop me a note when you get to FAC. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks indeed. As ever, really appreciate the time and input. Should be at FAC now. KJP1 (talk) 22:17, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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