Wikipedia:Peer review/Ventnor/archive1

Ventnor

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This peer review discussion has been closed.

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I've listed this article for peer review because I have now substantially reviewed and expanded the page, and would like feedback about how complete and well presented/organised other editors feel that it is; comments from editors with greater experience editing articles about geographical places would be especially welcome. And also whether editors think its current state is close to GA or FA.

Thanks, MapReader (talk) 15:37, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by User:Ykraps

I'll take a detailed look a bit later but for now, you might want to look at some of the sections that are bulletted and see if they can be converted to prose. This is important if you want to take to GA and beyond. Some of the sources used are self-published which are not ideal, particularly if they make bold claims such as "award-winning", without indicating which award or who bestowed it upon them.--Ykraps (talk) 09:06, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I meant to start by acknowledging the amount of work you've put in. You should be proud of what has been acheived so far.--Ykraps (talk) 09:10, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

General

The sections should be in a specific order - lead/infobox, history, government, geography, demography and economy. See Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements.

Compound compass directions are normally hyphenated in British English so south-east not south east. They are only not hyphenated when they refer to a specific region such as South West England, when they are also capitalised.

Try to maintain an encyclopaedic tone - Phrases such as, "local men were lost to the fighting", "Ventnor was booming again" and "By the 1980s, the town was seen as run down", sound a bit informal to me.

Consider reducing the number of sub-headings, particularly in the Flora and Fauna, and landmarks sections. If you need to keep everything, consider Limiting the Table of Contents

The copyvio tool returns at 81% (violation likely) when compared to this url [[1]]. However, the video was posted on 29 June 2017 and our article already had that wording [[2]] so it looks like it was copied from Wikipedia without attribution.

There are a few uncited sentences that probably don't need a source as per WP:BLUE -
"...at a time when consumption (now known as TB) was a common cause of death"

"The later nineteenth century also saw development aimed at wealthier holidaymakers from Britain and Europe, as British seaside resorts generally became very popular"

"...the urban area is contiguous with the neighbouring settlements of St Lawrence to the west and Bonchurch to the east"

"...such as one through Cascade Gardens, and another through the park to become Flowers Brook"

"Ventnor is the seventh largest town on the Isle of Wight, with a population of just under 6,000"

"The nearest town is Shanklin, nearly four miles to the north-east, and the nearest villages are Whitwell and Wroxall, both less than three miles distant"

"Below is a paddling-pool on the esplanade with a model of the Isle of Wight that children can play on"

"Ventnor is relatively isolated from the rest of the island"
But if you can find references, so much the better. Unreferenced paragraphs really draw the eye and despite the guidelines stating that inline citations are only required for "...direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged", others don't always agree. I have been asked to provide references for the most ridiculous things.

Give the fullest citations you can. So, for example, you've used this [[3]] to reference "The town has no river, although there are tufa-depositing springs along the downs feeding streams that flow the short distance to the sea". But you could also add, page=30.

History

"The area now occupied by Ventnor was divided between the parishes of Godshill and Newchurch. A watermill stood on what is now the cascade". Ventor is mentioned in the previous sentence so I don't think it needs mentioning again. You could probably just say, '"The area...", then you could join the two sentences together thus, "The area was divided between the parishes of Godshill and Newchurch, and a watermill stood on what is now the cascade".

"In 1828 the estate covering the future town was sold", doesn't sound quite right. Can an estate cover a town? What about, "...the estate where the town now stands", or something similar?

"...including by 1891 four chemists". I would have put parenthetical commas around, by 1891. However, my punctuating is a bit "old-school" and so anything I say on the matter, might be outdated.

Link Bournemouth, Southsea, Sandown and Ryde

"The town reached its zenith in the 1930s, when steam packets operated between Southsea..." Southsea is linked here but should be linked earlier instead.

"By the end of the war the town had 120 buildings destroyed...". Shouldn't that be, by the end of the war the town had had 120 buildings destroyed?

Is there anything about prehistoric Ventnor? I noticed there was an archaeological dig. Did they uncover anything Stone Age or Bronze Age?

~~Weren't the Romans at Ventnor? I thought there was a Roman signalling station there and a Roman road/express route to Yarmouth~~. I think that may have been St Catherine's Point. See page 10 of this article [[4]]. But check out pages 6 & 9 which mention several shell middens there and three 'sepulchral' urns.

Yeh, so try to get a good even spread, covering the whole of history from prehistoric to the modern day. Just because the town didn't exist before 1830, it doesn't mean you can't write about the area before then. There is a bit here about the Anglo-Saxon manor of Holeway and about it being called Vintnor in 1617.[[5]]

Try to find something about the town's etymology. If you can find enough info, it can have its own section.

You might find this useful.[[6]] And here's Ventnor's entry in John Bartholomew's 1887 Gazetteer of the British Isles.[[7]]

I'm not sure about, "...a flourishing cultural scene". It sounds a bit MOS:PUFF. You could say, "...hosting several annual events" or similar.

You need a source that says Ventnor's resurgence is due to the growth in short break travel.

Perhaps just say "During more recent years, there have been some signs of a renaissance"', and leave it at that. You can mention the rest in the 'Culture' section. Up to you, though.

Governance

I think byelaw is one word.

More of a question really. I see where you got eleven councillors from (3+3+2+2+1) but I only see ten here [[8]]. Any ideas why?

You might want to mention the two County Councillors.[[9]]

I find the Governance section the most difficult to write so I really like what you've done here. You've managed to keep it succinct and have avoided minutiae and all the info that constantly needs updating.

Geography

The MOS says that the distance from London ought to be included.

Not sure about using the word 'rugged', it sounds a bit informal. Is there another word we can use? Or perhaps just say the scenery is dominated by the cliffs.

You could add a Template:Adjacent communities but I've seen plenty of good and featured settlement articles without so it's entirely up to you.

Geology

"A nearby Site of Special Scientific Interest is known as the Landslip" - Needs a reference. This is suitable.[[10]]

Climate

This is usually a sub-heading (level 3) of the 'Geography' section but I suppose it's okay as it is.

Flora and fauna

I would be inclined to lose the level 3 sub-headings. I don't think there's anything wrong with what you've done here but a heading with only two or three sentences following, seems unnecessary.

Demography

MOS asks for religious composition to be included. Or you could have a Religion section and include it there.

Economy

"...It recommended that "planning policies focus on protecting...local convenience and specialist comparison goods, such as antiques and vintage items". Presumably this is in the report, so why not have the citation at the end of the paragraph?

Arts and Culture

I assume the "drinking" that takes place is the drinking of alcohol so better to link to drinking.

Any twin towns you can mention here?

Religious Sites

Are there any non-Christian sites that can be included here?

Consider making this a Religion section in which you can also talk about the diocese and include census info on religious denominations.

Notable People

I strongly recommend writing this in prose. As a bulleted list, it is all too easy for drive by editors to add unsourced references to very minor celebrities, complete unknowns or just commit out and out vandalism.

There are several missing references in this section.

This and a couple of your earlier comments raise the Q whether, if there is a link to another WP page that is already referenced, reference to the same person or place needs citation again? Also, in relation to people, the town council website lists a whole batch and is already cited once. MapReader (talk) 02:49, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

MapReaderYes, I'm afraid so. If you can access the source in the other article and it confirms what's being said in this article, I don't see why you can't just copy that reference across but readers should not be expected to trawl through one article to confirm what's being said in another. If multiple people are referred to on the same page of the website and in the same sentence/paragraph of the article then a single reference is okay. Otherwise you need to repeat the reference. You can use the <ref name=> tag, as you have already done with other multiple references.--Ykraps (talk) 06:45, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Landmarks

The entire paragraph regarding the Ventnor sign is unreferenced.

The RAF Ventnor section is unreferenced and also contains two bare urls, which shouldn't appear in the main body. See Wikipedia:Bare URLs.

"Steephill Cove, a hamlet and small beach with kiosks, cafes and self-catering cottages, is accessible only on foot". It's accessible by boat too! What about, "...without road access" or "...inaccessible to motor vehicles"?

Needs a source too. Try this [[11]]

As with the 'Flora and Fauna' section, this probably doesn't need sub-headings.

Transport

"Ventnor is relatively isolated from the rest of the island". This will need a good quality reference. Surely there are more isolated places on the island? Ventnor at least has a road network.

Sources

I've checked a number of sources (not all) for reliability and close paraphrasing. There are a few self-published sources but these are acceptable in that they are used only to provide non-contentious information about themselves. See WP:Self-published sources. Expect an image and source review if you take the article to FAC. I have had a quick look at the copyright of the images used, and most seem okay. Be aware, however, that images must be "...in the public domain in at least the United States and in the source country of the work"[[12]] and that UK copyright law is not the same as US copyright law. I am particularly concerned about the older images, which are digital reproductions. In the UK, the digital reproduction has its own copyright, so the original image might be in the public domain but the scanned image is not. See National Portrait Gallery and Wikimedia Foundation copyright dispute. That is not to say you can't use these images but I don't understand enough to advise you one way or the other.

Response from Mapreader:

Thank you for your time and very valuable observations. I have dealt with most of the smaller matters, except for a review of the language, which I will do soon. I have re-ordered the sections (personally I think Geography should come before History in 'place' articles, but the consensus seems otherwise). The bullets are now sub-headings, except for the short list of schools which meets the bulleted criteria.

Thanks for the further work and comments. This review is proving really useful not least in highlighting sections that need more work than I had realised. The Economy section also needs some filling out. You'll have seen that I have tried to fill out some of the early history, not that there is too much to say as it was mostly farmland until the 1800s. I have added something on etymology, running with the most favoured explanation - there are some other theories without much to back them up, but I really don't think a separate section, like I did for the IOW WP article, is really justified here. Many of your wording suggestions are resolved; there are a few outstanding. The Town Council currently has a vacancy. Thanks for comments on the geography section - I have been using the Weymouth FA article as a model. The wards for the two IOW councillors ("county" is now technically wrong) are mentioned in the first para of governance - I didnt think mention by name is appropriate, as they have no direct role in governing the town, other than representing it. I will look at the religion data later; I reviewed it before and it's almost all Christian or 'none'. As it's on an island, distance from London is somewhat subjective? MapReader (talk) 13:18, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you need to beat yourself up about the amount of work here. The article is a very good B class and although it depends a great deal on who reviews it, should acheive GA without too much trouble. However, you also mentioned FA and it is with that in mind that I'm conducting this review. The comments I've made here could well come up at FAC but providing you have answers and can make a rational argument, you will be free to disregard them without too much opposition. It is a very good idea to look at featured articles on a similar topic for inspiration. For a settlement with a small population, you might want to check out Little Thetford and for islands there's North Island (Houtman Abrolhos), Skye and Isle of Portland, although the last one is a peninsula.

With regards to the distance from the capital, I'm of the opinion that all distances between settlements are somewhat subjective because of course, it depends where you're taking the measurement from. My advice is to ignore that for now; as it appears to have been in several featured settlement articles by the look of it. If it comes up, you can make the same argument or if it's insisted upon, just say something like, "..to its nearest point, the island is approximately 69 miles south-west of London". I also disagree with the order of the sections but it is the style and MOS is one of the criteria the aticle will be judged on.

I'll continue to add to this review but remember these are suggestions and you are free to ignore them, with or without an explanation. Regards--Ykraps (talk) 06:45, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm about finished here. Some of the things I've pointed out might seem a bit picky but if you nominate for FAC, you will receive more of the same. I would encourage you to nominate for GA first and see how that goes and although I can't guarantee it will sail through, it has a very good chance of passing. In the nomination, you can say the article has been Peer Reviewed and add a link to here. You might also want to consider asking for a copy edit at Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors/Requests. All these things help demonstrate that you have taken steps to bring the article up to standard. Good Luck!--Ykraps (talk) 09:44, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you tremendously, User:Ykraps, the attention and advice you have given to this article have been outstanding. MapReader (talk) 10:43, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and feel free to contact me on my talk page if you have any questions after the review has been closed.--Ykraps (talk) 09:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]