Wikipedia:Peer review/William McGregor/archive3

William McGregor

Previous peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.
This has been a GA for quite some time, but at the second PR it was determined that the content was a bit "thin" for FA. User:Oldelpaso's now added several huge chunks of extra content from a book he bought this week, so I now think the content is up to FA level. Nonetheless, I'd like to see if there's any little tweaks or tidy-ups that might need doing first. Cheers in advance!!!!!!!

Thanks, ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Automated Review

A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style; it can be found on the automated peer review page for January 2009.

Review by Noj_R

I'm not very familiar with association football, but I'll do my best to provide FA quality critiquing. Throughout the review I have given examples of improving prose. Please accept these as suggestions; I'm still learning to write as well.

Lead

• "became involved with Aston Villa F.C." - Soccer fans may know what Aston Villa is, but I had to look it up. Try mentioning it was a club or explaining a bit further for readers not familiar with the subject material.
• "helped to establish the club" - Strengthen the prose by removing words that don't improve the sentence.
• "In 1888, frustrated at the chaotic state of his club's fixture list" - This sentence could use some clarification, why was his fixture list in chaos, and why did starting the football league resolve it?
• "This in turn was instrumental"
• "in the transition of football" -> "in transitioning football"
  • Not a valid expression in UK English
• "and posthumously honoured" - "and was posthumously honoured"

Early Life

• "Differing sources give his age" - McGregor is one of the most important men in football and nobody knows when he became interested in football? Perhaps this sentence would be better omitted.
• "He served an apprenticeship as a draper with a firm based in Perth" - try refining sentences like this. -> "He served an apprenticeship at a draper firm in Perth" Or something similar.
• "opened his own business" - What kind of business?
• "Although he had not seen any further football played since the match he had observed in Scotland" - Again, efforts should be made to refine sentences like these.

Association with Aston Villa

• "a club which had been formed three years earlier"
• "At the time the club played at Aston Park," - this sentence is a bit unruly, try to refine it.
• "what apparently attracted" - apparently? Dont make assumptions about your subjects intentions.
• "suggest that their style"
• "McGregor allowed the club to use his shop as a store to prevent a repeat." - More prose problems -> "McGregor allowed the club use of his shop to prevent further seizures."
• "in 1880, following which" -> "in 1880, shortly after"
• "and went on to become the club's chairman in 1897" -> "eventually becoming club chairman in 1897."
• "During his time at the club he was noted" - We already know he was at the club, and who noted?
• "was responsible for the club's adoption of the lion rampant depicted on the Royal Standard of Scotland, which has appeared on its crest ever since" -> "was responsible for adopting the lion rampant, depicted on the Royal Standard of Scotland, as the Club's crest."

Founder of the Football League

• "saw the first victory by a working-class team" -> "saw the first victory of a working-class team"
  • Not a valid expression in UK English
• "advocate of professionalism" - the word "professionalism" is used many times; try mixing it up -> "advocate of this movement"
• "threatened to cause a split in the FA"
• "the only delegate from the Midlands to do so, and was one of the few delegates to admit that his club had been paying players."
  • He was not the only delegate from the Midlands (rather he was the only one to advocate professionalism), so the version you have suggested is incorrect. I have therefore left it as is
• "Many clubs found it increasingly hard" - This sentence is difficult to read, try splitting it.
• "own club, Aston Villa, as well as to those of Blackburn Rovers,"
• "set-up used since the 1870s in American baseball" - Help the sentence flow by not introducing random dates.
• "McGregor himself always cited the County Cricket Championship as his inspiration"\
• "chose 23 March as the date of his proposed meeting as it was the day before" -> "chose 23 March because it was the day before"
• "became apparent that clubs" - again "apparent", use confident language -> "became clear the clubs"
• "proposal, since none attended" - Remove the comma, it makes the sentence stumble in this case.
• "was therefore held"
• "was therefore held in Manchester on 17 April, at which the details of the new competition were finalised." -> "was held in Manchester on April 17, and details concerning the new competition were finalised."
• "was rejected as too similar to that of the Rugby Football Union"
• "opposition on the grounds that he felt it might invoke"
• "to leave the possibility of future applications from Scottish clubs." -> "presenting the opportunity for Scottish clubs to join."

As things turned out, Scottish clubs never did get the opportunity to join due to the creation of the Scottish Football League two years later. The intention was there though, hence the wording. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

• "A second McGregor proposal, that only one club from each town should be included, was carried" - ungainly, please reword.
• "the first ever season"
• "re-elected unopposed in 1891" - of course he was unopposed, he won the election!
  • "Unopposed" means that no other candidates ran against him.
• "having earlier spoken of his pleasure that "of the 132 matches in which the League..." - I'm confused. McGregor was re-elected after previously stating (and I paraphrase), "I'm glad nobody got hurt." The logic of this sentence implies McGregor was re-elected because he was glad nobody was injured playing football.
• "League to two divisions" - Too too. Try avoiding this.
• "but he was now suffering ill health which caused him to miss meetings, and relinquished his post later that year" - This could be worded much better.
• "The role was that of a figurehead" - how was it like a figurehead.
• " but he was also used a mediator if League affairs became fraught." -> "and could use mediation to absolve league disagreements."
• "caused him to miss meetings" then "attended few committee meetings" - This was already explained.
• "criticism had" -> "criticism achieved"
• "the "McGregor lace-to-toe football boot"" - Is this a special boot? Why is his name attached to it?

Outside football -> should probably be retitled "Personal life" or "Life outside football"

• "McGregor was married to Jessie" - Who was Jessie?
  • His wife, fairly obviously. Nothing else is known about her.
• wikilink "teetotaller".

Death and legacy

• "he immediate effect of its creation" - needs citation, otherwise its OR. Or is reference 23 covering it?
  • Yes, the ref covers it. I have moved it to make this clearer, and doubled it up with a second ref which says mych the same thing
• "football, however, and was adamant" - "However" acts like a show stopper here.
• "and a legend of both his club, Aston Villa, and of football in general." - awkward wording.

Conclusion

This is a good article, but prose issues are going to leave it hanging come FA time. Audit the article, and if you feel you cannot improve it any further, get outside help spotting outstanding issues. Also, try bolstering his early life section with dates. A few more images wouldn't hurt either. I commend you on your work so far and am confident it will garner an FA star. I look forward to reading this article again in the future, cheers - Noj r (talk) 06:09, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

• • No specific dates are recorded for events in his early life other than what is already included. And no further images of McGregor appear to exist. Remember we are talking about the 19th century here, photography was not very common. I could go and take a picture of the church where he's buried, as it's only ten minutes drive from my house, but that seems a bit like adding decorative images for the sake of it. There's no requirement for an FA to include more than two images, but if it's a deal-breaker then so be it......
    • Many thanks for taking the time to review the article, I have addressed most of your points and responded to the others above -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Not a problem. I gave the article another quick look, and I believe its looking better. This guy seems harder to write about then I had initially thought. Great work. -- Noj r (talk) 07:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)