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The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikipedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
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Uppercase fullname policy shortcuts

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In the spirit essays like WP:WTF? OMG! TMD TLA. ARG! and WP:ALPHABETTISPAGHETTI and WP:UPPERCASE, I'm trying to do a lot more lowercase fullnaming when referencing policies like WP:OriginalResearch or wp:competenceisrequired. I've personally found this less likely to be cognitively associated with shouting or lawyering, more self-explanatory without needing a hover, and much easier on the eyes. Hopefully newer editors have felt the same.

Two things I'd like to address:

  1. Not all subpolicies have redirects in both lowercase and camelcase. I just want to make sure they can all be made without controversy.
  2. On the policy pages themselves, the shortcuts to subpolicies are always uppercase. So we have (in RS) both WP:UBO and USEBYOTHERS as shortcuts in the box, but as only UBO is an acronym, why can't we have the second shortcut suggestion be WP:UseByOthers? (Similar across the P&G.) It's just an indicator that other shortcuts besides UPPERCASE exist.

Relatively minor thing that won't change the actual functionality of anything. It just makes the replaces the suggested full-name spelling (not acronyms) of P&G shortcuts from uppercase to camelcase. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To pre-empt the objection that editors should pipe plaintext to P&G as suggested in the essays I linked: I agree, that's great, if editors actually did it with any regularity. For my own part, piping is an extra bit of typing that may not be as clear that I'm referencing P&G in discussion in the first place, which is often important, since I've found people rarely click links anyway. SamuelRiv (talk) 19:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you're likely to get any pushback on point 1. It has long been my practice to refer to such things in whichever case makes most sense in the sentence I am writing (usually lower case or with a capitalised first letter) and, if "show preview" shows it as a red link, create a redirect. I don't think I've ever had anyone revert this. I'll have to think a bit more about point 2 - there's a danger of bloat there. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear on #2: in the box in the P&G that gives the shortcuts in bold blue text: one is an acronym and one is the fullname, so in my linked example, the box says Shortcuts: WP:UBO WP:USEBYOTHERS. I suggest replacing the fullname shortcut in the P&G from allcaps to camelcase, so the box now says Shortcuts: WP:UBO WP:UseByOthers. I'm not sure where you're seeing bloat, as not a single byte is being added or subtracted, and functionally nothing is changed. SamuelRiv (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see one possible point of contention: in many skins including legacy vector, the search includes all redirects, and some might be annoyed to see a ton of redirects preemptively clog up the suggestions when they want to find something else after typing the first word. Personally, I like point 2-style redirects much better. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:29, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy Vector search is case-sensitive? So if I start searching "mrna", it brings up a list including "Mrna", "mRna", "mRNA", all of which link to the same thing? If that's the case, and someone is still using such software, then the adding or removing of case-sensitive redirects has surely long since stopped being a cause of heartache for that person. SamuelRiv (talk) 07:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are a great many ways of searching Wikipedia, some of which are case-insensitive and display a list of possible results as you type. This includes the internal search engine, which is independent of which skin you use (you see the same results in vector, vector legacy, monobook, etc). Thryduulf (talk) 11:29, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think the internal search engine brings up multiple results to the same page due to redirects. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense. Still, I like the CamelCase redirects better since it's very clear where the words separate. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You know what separates words more clearly than CamelCase? Anything spaces. "You're violating our policy about WP:BiographiesOfLivingPeople" vs. "You're violating our policy about WP:biographies of living people." Also easier to type; mostly doesn't need new redirects; and looks way less weird to everyone but programmers. (WP:biographiesoflivingpeople is even worse.) —Cryptic 12:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't advocate for redirects like that and merely repeat the title. The UseByOthers example goes to a section with a different name. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:45, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As could WP:Use by others. —Cryptic 12:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CamelCase is a tiny bit less effort to type and still indicates that the link is a shortcut. I think the reason everything caps is precisely to differentiate them as redirects, and some of that differentiation should be preserved. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:58, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I don't feel that the visible link text should be differentiated as redirects. This primarily serves to codify a term (in allcaps or camel case) as jargon. There are times when this can lead to greater concision, but most of the time the gain is small, with a cost of greater confusion for those who don't already know the title of the destination and the corresponding text. For example, often non-neutral points of view get labelled as being WP:NPOV. I appreciate the point of view that learning a community's jargon is part of joining that community. I feel, though, that English Wikipedia has plenty of jargon already without every shortcut being used as jargon. isaacl (talk) 15:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I'd advocate camelcase as the second suggested redirect (in the little redirects box in the P&G sections), as opposed to spaced-out prose versions (which I'd also like to see used more by editors), is that camelcase is also at least a little suggestive that there is an acronym people use, or i.e. that a newbie following a discussion might more readily deduce 'WP:UseByOthers ↔ WP:UBO'. If everyone here would prefer listing 'WP:Use by others', that's fine by me; one could also put three shortcuts instead of just the two: 'WP:UBO WP:UseByOthers WP:Use by others'. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, spelling abbreviations out can at least give clue as to what the jargon means. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SamuelRiv, if you'd like this to be a bit easier, then try switching from 'Source' to 'Visual' in the Reply tool for a few days.
Use its Link tool for adding links. In the visual mode, just type [[ and it'll notice that you want to make a link and open the tool for you (alternatively, click the button in the toolbar or use the keyboard shortcut (=⌘K on a Mac). Type the shortcut (e.g., WP:CORP) into the link search box, and it will offer you a link to the full title (e.g., Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies). For individual sections, open the page in a tab, and paste the whole URL into your comment. For example, I opened WP:SIRS in another tab, and pasting the whole URL gives me a nicely formatted link to Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#How to apply the criteria.
I suggest trying this out for a few days and seeing whether you like it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@WhatamIdoing The source mode's link tool in the toolbar does the same thing. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The [[ sequence only works in the visual mode. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:03, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but the link icon in the toolbar works the same. (Also, ConvenientDiscussions has an inline-typing linking-assisting pop-up that autocompletes, even though it doesn't automatically expand the redirect.) Aaron Liu (talk) 04:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we are to proceed with advertising such shortcuts in {{sh}} boxes, I'm sure that's visible enough to necessitate an RfC, or at least {{centralized discussion}}. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Verified badge for Admins!

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I’m not sure what others will think of this, but I accidentally had this thought: how would it be if we added a verified badge, similar to Instagram or Facebook’s verified badges, to admin signatures when they comment? It would make it easier to identify that the editor is an admin, instead of having to check their profile, contributions, or diffs, which is a lengthy process and not ideal. Similar to how Discord groups use a green name for admins. What are your thoughts on this? GrabUp - Talk 13:03, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GrabUp, there's a script for that: User:Mdaniels5757/markAdmins. Schazjmd (talk) 13:46, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Schazjmd, GrabUp: there's quite a few, actually. — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 13:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My personal favorite is user:Bugghost/Scripts/UserRoleIndicator. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:30, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Admins who care to do this can do so, and users who care to see this can do so. But in general this needn't be and shouldn't be the default. We've all seen how sometimes editors seem to show unusual deference to known admins in discussions on non-admin-related matters, such as content and meta-content. This may be unconscious or conscious, but it's counterproductive to discussion and counter to the spirit of the project either way. SamuelRiv (talk) 14:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree on this one. Admins are just users trusted with some tools, they don't have any special authority on content or anything else. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:26, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I use my administrator's tools to block an editor or delete a page or protect or unprotect an article, any one who is looking closely will know that I am an adminstrator because only adminstrators can do those things. On the other hand, when I write a new article or expand an existing article or give an assessment on an article talk page or offer advice at the Teahouse, nobody needs to know that I am an adminstrator because those are not administrative functions and I am just another editor at that moment. I did all those things long before I became an adminstrator. If I tell another editor that I am an administrator, that is in the context of a warning. I see no benefit to a badge. Cullen328 (talk) 08:52, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's technically impossible to enforce with traditional wikitext discussions anyways. Structured discussions as used on other wikis might be able to support it, but in that case, why are admins given the blue check and other users not?--Jasper Deng (talk) 09:00, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(It's actually possible, you just query members of a CSS class and show them the same way you may in structured discussions.) Aaron Liu (talk) 10:57, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(That is not impersonation-proof.)--Jasper Deng (talk) 11:03, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is? The API always tells the truth. By query CSS class I mean all userpage links next to timestamps. There are scripts above that do the exact same thing.
A more efficient implementation would be automatically adding a new CSS class to admin userpage links along with sanitizing signatures against manual addition of the class. That said, I'm not convinced this is something we should do. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this is something we should do either (if users really want it, there are already several user scripts doing that and allowing for custom CSS). I'd say the only place where it isn't impersonation-proof is if someone goes out of their way to fake another user's signature, but at this point it's just saying that our signatures themselves aren't impersonation-proof, and a quick check in the page history is enough to spot and revert it... Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 14:02, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No it's not. The user can completely fake the badge visually by not even querying the API, since inline styles are possible in wikitext, and users control their own signatures.--Jasper Deng (talk) 18:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point. If we settled on an API-based style that changed signs to say something like "Jdforrester (talk) is an admin", then soon after, we'd find that some editors had set a WP:CUSTOMSIG to say something like "WhatamIdoing (talk) is an admin" – only the first is 'real' and API based, and the second is mimicked in wikitext.
It might be possible to minimize this technologically, using the same kind of code that already disallows custom sigs without a link to your own account, but doing that would require dev intervention, which in turn probably has a minimum requirement of us thinking that it's a good idea, which doesn't seem to be the case. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Measures for Mitigating Vandalism from the Indian Region

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At present, Wikipedia addresses vandalism in India through IP and host blocks. However, a significant issue is that most Indians access the internet via mobile connections, where mobile providers assign NATed IPs. As a result, when administrators block a host range, it inadvertently affects a large portion of mobile users. Consequently, individuals within these ranges are unable to create accounts or make IP edits. There have been reports of a decline in editors from India, which coincided with the shift towards mobile-based internet access.

To address this challenge, I propose introducing a requirement for users accessing Wikipedia from suspicious networks to provide a verified email address when creating an account. The email should be from a trusted domain, such as Gmail or Outlook, which require mobile number verification as part of their sign-up process. This would help ensure that new accounts from these networks are legitimate.

Additionally, there is room to improve how Wikipedia handles repeat vandals. Currently, when a user is flagged for vandalism, they receive a temporary block, but once the block expires, their account is restored to its previous status without further consequences. It has been observed that some users take advantage of this by making constructive edits for a period, only to revert to vandalism later, perpetuating a cycle of temporary bans. Over time, certain users have accumulated considerable edit counts and status, which they leverage to manipulate factual data—such as box office figures—or prioritise certain sources to skew rankings. The high edit count often discourages other editors from reporting them, despite their history of disruptive behaviour.

To curb this, I suggest implementing additional measures when reinstating users after a block. First, users should be required to provide a verified email address from a reputable domain before their account is reactivated. Second, they should be reinstated in a limited or "safe mode," regaining full editing privileges only after completing a specified number of good-faith edits. This would slow down organised vandals and disrupt their timing, as many appear to operate on a carefully coordinated schedule.

Lastly, to further safeguard the platform, IP edits from suspicious domains IP-Ranges should be permanently blocked, as these are often used for repeated abuse.W170924 (talk) 21:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC) [reply]

Addition To address the issue of unreported vandalism, which often remains only as an edit description, I suggest implementing an Email Required Block Filter (ERBF) for moderators. This tool would allow moderators to temporarily freeze a user account until the user provides a valid email address from trusted domains like Google or Outlook, which require phone number verification in India for account activation. Additionally, the user should not be allowed to change the email address for a month.

Furthermore, users who are temporarily blocked for vandalism should be reinstated in 'safe mode,' meaning they will only have the permissions of a newly created account. In this mode, they must complete 100 edits to regain their previous status. If the user is blocked again for similar behaviour, the required number of edits could be doubled for subsequent reinstatements. This approach encourages responsible editing while providing moderators with more effective tools to prevent repeated disruptions.W170924 (talk) 07:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the statements that couldn't be implemented due to WMF core principles, but I am confident the last part doesn't violate any privacy.W170924 (talk) 23:55, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Minor nit: neither Gmail nor Outlook require mobile number verification to create an email account. Schazjmd (talk) 21:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Schazjmd:I am not sure about other regions, but in India, they won’t allow access to their service until phone number verification is completed.W170924 (talk) 22:04, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't know that, @W170924, thanks! In the U.S., there's no phone verification requirement to set up an email address. Schazjmd (talk) 22:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather we just make accounts with a verified phone number get IP-block exempt by default unless the rangeblock specifically requests to block them as well. Wikipedia's software has no such functionality yet though.

IP edits from suspicious domains

what does that mean lol Aaron Liu (talk) 23:23, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aaron Liu:I wrote 'IP edits from suspicious domains,' though I intended to say 'IP edits from suspicious IP ranges,' which was an unintentional mistake. Using a verified phone number is a best practice, but it would significantly increase costs for Wikipedia.W170924 (talk) 04:22, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Currently, when a user is flagged for vandalism, they receive a temporary block, but once the block expires, their account is restored to its previous status without further consequences. It has been observed that some users take advantage of this by making constructive edits for a period, only to revert to vandalism later, perpetuating a cycle of temporary bans.
Citation needed on this one. Repeated vandalism is nearly always met with escalating blocks for registered users, and the third or fourth block is usually indefinite. For IPs, blocks are usually temporary (although increasing in duration) rather than indefinite, as they are often reassigned to new unrelated users. Nearly all indefinitely blocked IPs are open proxies rather than personal IPs.
Over time, certain users have accumulated considerable edit counts and status, which they leverage to manipulate factual data—such as box office figures—or prioritise certain sources to skew rankings.
Again, do you have any evidence? A user with repeated temporary blocks wouldn't have a lot of "status", whatever that means, and changes aren't trusted based on the reputation of the user who makes them, but on their quality of sourcing. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 23:52, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Chaotic Enby:You acknowledge that a permanent ban is only imposed after the third block. This means a person can create an account, commit acts of vandalism, receive a temporary block, then contribute positively for a year before repeating the behaviour. Essentially, the user is given three opportunities to engage in such actions, with their edit history remaining intact throughout. This process can be drawn out, as most vandalism only results in a warning. Recently, there has been a more lenient approach to vandalism, such as using unreliable sources to cite information or editing a range without providing proper references. In some cases, the user's behaviour may go completely unnoticed. My intention was not to single out individuals but to highlight this ongoing issue. I believe systematic vandalism requires a systematic approach. Also, for a new user, the edit count matters as they may not yet be familiar with how Wikipedia operates.W170924 (talk) 04:43, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So an editor will "contribute positively for a year", and after that the engage in systematic bad-faith editing (however many weeks or months this may take to discern, it is a function that scales with the number of bad-faith articlespace edits)? I echo users above in asking for examples in which this is happening systematically, because... if people are editing WP positively for an entire year just to game the system later, I would hypothesize (awaiting examples) that WP comes out ahead. SamuelRiv (talk) 06:10, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SamuelRiv:I still reiterate that the scope is not to name anyone, but you can check my history.W170924 (talk) 07:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @W170924: I know you mean well, but as someone who has worked extensively in countervandalism, including work as a Wikidata CheckUser dealing with many Indian IP's, your ideas are rather misguided. Firstly, accounts which clearly only vandalize are always indefinitely blocked even on the first instance, and that's the vast majority of cases of vandalism. Requiring verified phone number or email addresses is something the foundation categorically will not do, as they have stated repeatedly, not the least (in part) because it poses a serious inclusivity and accessibility issue for users. "Suspicious IP ranges" does not fly well in India in particular, especially with IPv6, because Reliance Jio and other ISP's stupidly allocate all addresses from one giant, monolithic, block, so (analogously to disk fragmentation) abusive users are highly interspersed with legitimate users. Verified email address obtaining is also very trivial with disposable email services and we will not allow particular providers such as Gmail and Outlook.com to gatekeep our editing access. I must reiterate what others say: you have made these claims of patterns, but have not satisfied the burden of proof since you have not provided any data to support your claims.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:32, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jasper Deng:I had sent feedback on this to you. Do you think my ideas are misguided?W170924 (talk) 13:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For context, they sent an email. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@W170924: Please do not email me unless privacy is absolutely required, which it is not here. What you sent me shows you don't understand what vandalism is; please read WP:NOTVAND. Cases where subtle vandalism are missed would not be helped by your suggestions, either.--Jasper Deng (talk) 19:57, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jasper Deng:So, does that mean people are allowed to do so if the threshold is not met?W170924 (talk) 22:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@W170924: I don't understand your question. Not all disruption is vandalism.--Jasper Deng (talk) 04:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok.W170924 (talk) 06:08, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cabayi:It would be inappropriate for me to comment on the example as I am strongly biased being Indian. I will only say this: if that matter escalates, Wikipedia may lose all Indian editors in the process.W170924 (talk) 13:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why editors shouldn't be required at all to submit personally identifiable information: nobody should be prosecuted. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:20, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging SGrabarczuk to talk about m:Trust and Safety Product/Temporary Accounts, which could reduce this problem on our end. On the off chance that any affected ISP happens to see this, if they wanted to reduce this problem themselves, then switching from using CGNAT rotating a small number of IPv4 addresses to using a stable, larger number of IPv6 addresses would help a lot, and that's something they could do themselves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing: As my Jio example shows, merely using IPv6 isn't enough on its own. The subnets still have to be geographically localized, not doing allocation from one giant block, or else the same abusers end up jumping across extremely wide ranges, which I've observed while conducting CheckUser work.--Jasper Deng (talk) 06:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fix Draftification with a new template

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Draftification has long been criticized as a backdoor to deletion. In New Pages Patrol (NPP), it is common to move new articles that are not ready for mainspace to draftspace. This way, articles that could potentially be suitable for Wikipedia, but are not yet, are preserved. The article creator then gets a chance to improve their article without NPPers breathing down their necks or having it taken to Articles for Deletion. If anyone, including the article creator, objects to draftification, the article should be moved back to mainspace (draftification should be reversed). This is explained by DRAFTNO #6 and #7. No reason is required for the objection.

Problem: However, we also have a rule that drafts that haven't been edited for six months get automatically deleted, under Criterion for Speedy Deletion G13. So, well-meaning New Page Patrollers will unilaterally draftify new articles that are not yet ready for the encyclopedia. The new editors who created the article may disagree with the move, without knowing that they can object. The new users can get discouraged and leave Wikipedia altogether, and after six months the draft is deleted under CSD G13. As this process happens without community discussions, it results in draftification being called a "backdoor to deletion".

Solution: This problem can be solved without changing policy or current practice. We just need to make it very obvious to new users that they can object to draftification. We can also make it easy to reverse the draftication (assuming the new user is autoconfirmed). I suggest we do this by adding a template to all draftified articles. The template would include a big blue button, similar to the "Submit the draft for review!" button at Template:AfC submission/draft, which says "Object to this move". Clicking this button either: 1. Leaves a message on the talk page of the editor who draftified, notifying them that there has been an objection to the move and requesting that it be immediately reversed. 2. Moves the page back to mainspace automatically, or if the editor's account is unable to perform this task, creates an entry at Requested moves/Technical moves to that effect. The latter is better, but also more technically complex. Adding a similar button to Template:Uw-articletodraft, the warning typically given upon draftification, would also be helpful.

Implementation: Once the new template is ready, it can be added to MPGuy's MoveToDraft userscript, which is the most common way for NPPers to draftify articles. It should be placed above the AfC template on all draftified articles.

I would appreciate comments from technically skilled editors, who could create this template (or tell me that it's impossible), from NPPers who draftify articles, and from uninvolved editors who have opinions on the draftification process. Toadspike [Talk] 10:37, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This idea isn't really my own, it was obviously sparked by the most recent RfA. A similar idea was previously discussed here, but that discussion proposed a requirement that all editors have to follow (policy), not a technical solution, and turned into a trainwreck. To prevent something similar, I ask all participants to please focus on improving the current situation instead of debating the morality of draftification as a whole. Toadspike [Talk] 11:03, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notifying the users who commented most directly on this topic at the RfA: @Alalch E.@User:Onel5969@User:Hobit@User:Fangz@User:Nsk92. I have also notified the NPP Talk page and posted a message on Discord. I am not sure how to notifying all participants of the previous discussion (aside from doing it manually) and I am not sure that is productive considering how many people were involved and how offtopic it got, so I won't do that for now. Toadspike [Talk] 11:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you sure you want to make this an RfC? Is there a BEFORE somewhere? Aaron Liu (talk) 11:32, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, I am not sure if the RfC label applies, so I'll remove the templates. I was looking for ways to notify people and misread RFCBEFORE. Toadspike [Talk] 11:34, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: The draftification message could be tweaked, but a big button to reverse the move will lead to more AfDs, higher strain on NPP, more BITEY behaviour, and worse editor retention. Draft space is incredibly valuable, and people have some incredibly warped views about the space. If we did something like this then we'd end up chasing away new editors because learning how to make your article meet our complicated guidelines in under 7 days (AfD tag) is not easy for a lot of folks. Draft space gives them the opportunity to work on the content, to receive advise, and to make articles that will actually survive at AfD and allow them to stick around. Really we need to draftify more, and I've taken it upon myself to begin to do so again and encourage others to do. I'm big on editor retention. This is not the way to do it. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:15, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem with unilateral draftification is that it can also be incredibly bitey, especially when done for arbitrary reasons that have nothing to do with any of the reasons why something might be deleted at AfD (although this is less prevalent than the trivial reasons things are rejected at AfC). We should be draftifying fewer articles and not sending them to AfD either but rather leaving them in the mainspace (With appropriate tags where justified) so that they can be found and improved rather than pretending that they don't exist for six months and then deleting them. Thryduulf (talk) 12:34, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not really convinced draftification is any worse than the alternatives - tagging is *also* bitey as well, and one user tagging an article and leaving it in mainspace could lead to another user seeing it and deciding to AfD. Draftification could be a way to protect an article until it enters a better state. But I think the other part I have an issue with is the lack of clear guidelines. Clearly some people have an issue with draftification and others do not, and people have different ideas what it is for. That needs to be made more concrete. Otherwise just saying "we should use draftification less" isn't going to lead to any positive changes. Fangz (talk) 12:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with the general sentiment – arguing for more or less draftification does not solve the problem that new users basically can't object to it. Toadspike [Talk] 12:47, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I envision a template (possibly one specific for relatively new users?) being something like:
    1. Hi, this article has been moved to a draft form because another user thinks it has potential but is not ready for the encyclopedia just yet. REASON:
    2. You can continue to work on it while it's not published, though note that if not editted for 6 months it will be deleted. Here are some useful resources.
    3. When you think the article is ready you can submit the article to a review, which can give useful feedback. []
    4. Alternatively you may return the article to the main encyclopedia at any time and have it be editted while part of the main encyclopedia. See WP: Draft Object. Note however that if other users think there are unfixable issues with the article it may be put forward as a candidate for deletion. Fangz (talk) 12:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I like the idea for the user warning. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Tagging never leads to an article being automatically deleted. – Joe (talk) 18:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In my view draftified articles should (semi?) automatically return to the mainspace after timeout instead of be deleted. Or at least be re-evaluated for notability. I do not really see the reason for automatic speedy deletion, except as backdoor deletion. Fangz (talk) 18:59, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I like that idea. They don't, though, so it's a bit of a moot point in terms of current policy. – Joe (talk) 06:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Why can't they just improve it in mainspace, without the sting on of an initial rejection and a six month deletion countdown hanging over them? I don't get why you keep presenting this as a choice between draftspace and AfD. – Joe (talk) 18:46, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The reason is that "improving it in mainspace" has its own issues. An article in mainspace has to juggle being of service to the reader to being of service to the editor. This implies formal processes and wikijargon for consistency, unified templates for issues in the article, clear and ruthless labelling of problems and so on. There's a strong tendency for the first experience of an editor to be a very public and humiliating fight against established editors who have a better understanding of wikipedia processes, quickly driving the editor away or getting them blocked. It is also very difficult to improve on this experience as it would imply fundamental changes affecting all sorts of things. Meanwhile improving an article in draft mode allows for a more informal process of communication to shepherd an article towards an acceptable state. Fangz (talk) 19:10, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I did a little work on page view statistics recently. The median article gets about one page view per week. So if the new article is typical, then it doesn't have to "be of service to the reader", because there aren't really any readers. Editors (especially NPP and RecentChanges folks) may look at a brand-new article a few dozen times on the first day, but once the reviewers leave it alone, most articles just don't have much traffic.
    I think the reason we are unwilling to "improve it in mainspace" is because we're scared that we'll forget that it was there, and years later, someone will be embarrassed to discover that an WP:UGLY article has been neglected ever since. We are using draftification and other threats as a way to make other WP:VOLUNTEERS improve the article to our idea of acceptable quality. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't know if we're looking at different draft namespaces, but an "informal process of communication to shepherd an article towards an acceptable state" sounds like the precise opposite of our current AfC process. – Joe (talk) 06:19, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't like the idea of a button but I do think the template should be changed. I think having a button suggests it's a default option, but I think a link is okay. Fangz (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is the idea lab so no bolded comment from me, but I have mixed feelings. I am in favour of softening the experience for newcomers, but I'm opposed to the concept of draftification being automatically reversible. If a new page patroller reviews a new article and moves it to draft because it's clearly unsuitable for mainspace, the creator should need to do more than just say "I object" in order to move their clearly unsuitable article back again. I've recently proposed that all of draftspace should be move-protected at the semi level (the proposal was not well received - fair enough). This is probably the rule I ignore more than any other on Wikipedia, mostly dealing with spam sockfarms that try to abuse the rule to promote their garbage. Besides, a new user whose submission is quarantined to draft space and they're left with instructions and a list of suggestions with helpful links is already getting better treatment than most editors ever have or will, and if their reaction to that is to rage-quit then they're probably not a good fit for the collaborative environment of Wikipedia anyway. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ivanvector, you know the joke about "If you ask three people, you'll get four opinions"? I wonder if we ask three NPPers what "ready for mainspace" means, if we'd get four opinions. AFAICT, "ready for mainspace" most often means "contains at least as many refs as the median article, but higher quality ones". All the children in Lake Wobegon are above average, and all the new Wikipedia articles must be, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:12, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I feel like I might vaguely recall a discussion on that topic sometime in the not too distant past. Folly Mox (talk) 22:55, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    176 comments from 22 editors, and I probably had 22 opinions all by myself. ;-) WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • As far as I see it draftification should never be used for subjects which pass GNG, and it should only be standard for things like films/TV series/games which are in the works but have not yet begun production. Subjects with debatable notability should be sent to AFD to the issue can be resolved.★Trekker (talk) 13:00, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Subjects that pass WP:GNG should never be draftified at all, instead they should be tagged and dealt with using normal community procedures. I agree that films/TV series/games/political events probably best fit the bill for draftifications, but so do potentially notable but underdeveloped articles. Sohom (talk) 13:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is out of step with the present form of Wikipedia:DRAFTIFY, and I don't think it makes sense anyway. Articles that fail GNG should not be draftified, they should be AfDed. Films etc that are in the works should not be draftified merely because they aren't in production, and it's not really a great use for draft space because there's no guarantee that there would be a change of situation to establish notability within 6 months. Articles should be draftified only if the reviewer believes the article can be editted into an acceptable state within the time window. This implies a pass of GNG - i.e. a belief that reliable sources are potentially out there. Remember that GNG is about the *subject*, not about the state of the article. Fangz (talk) 14:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In my view the correct use of draftification is sort of as an alternative version of the WIP template. An acknowledgement that the article is not ready and should be being worked on and will likely have multiple issues, but in a protected sandboxed environment to avoid overly zealous moderation and promotion of misunderstanding for casual readers, and without implying the original editor is the one working on it. For new users it should offer a less formal and jargony process to learning how to improve an article than tagging based methods, because the latter has to balance the need to inform *readers* as well as editors. Fangz (talk) 14:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If you evaluate that a article passes WP:GNG, then there is not point in draftifying it, you could just add a {{sources exist}} template, patrol and move on. Alternatively, if you evaluate that a article fails WP:GNG, there is no point in wasting the article creator's time and you should WP:AFD/PROD it.
    The only case where you would draftify a article is if you saw a article that a) had a credible claim to significance/notability b) does not meet/prove notability in it's current state c) has been created in the last week or so by a inexperienced article creator. Sohom (talk) 14:43, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure if we're disagreeing or we're having some semantics thing about what "passes GNG" means.
    But anyway there's issues beyond notability, in my view that's probably more useful. Fangz (talk) 15:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If an article has a credible chance of being kept or merged at AfD then it should not be draftified.
    If an article would definitely fail AfD and there is no editing that can fix that it should be sent to AfD. Thryduulf (talk) 15:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think then you're pretty much arguing that the draftification process should be removed entirely, and I don't agree with that. It has its advantages. It should not be made a mandatory process by any means but just as some users prefer to work on articles as a draft and then push to the public wiki, it can be a better resolution to certain issues than the alternatives. Fangz (talk) 17:44, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure that the Draft: namespace has any advantages over a user sandbox, and m:Research:Wikipedia article creation and m:Research:AfC processes and productivity says that the Draft: namespace is where articles go to die.
    I do think that we've fallen into a false binary here. The options are not "garbage in the mainspace" vs "auto-deleted as in the draftspace". There are other options (e.g., sticky prods for uncited articles, userification, bold stubbification, bold merging, developing a more consistent and predictable standard for evaluating articles, etc.). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:20, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think there is a argument to be made that this landscape might have changed a fair bit since this research was done. The latest data that these projects consider is from 2014-2017. WP:ACTRIAL happened after that research was done, and Wikipedia's policies have changed since those times. Sohom (talk) 20:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's possible that things have changed, and I'm never one to turn down a new research project if you happen to be volunteering to do it (I believe that all the necessary data is public), but looking at the overall deletion rate in that namespace, it seems unlikely that the result will be materially different. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think then you're pretty much arguing that the draftification process should be removed entirely, and I don't agree with that. I'm sorry to pick on you but this is the clearest example yet of the circular reasoning that has got us into this mess: draftification must be good because we do it, so we must keep doing it because it's good. From literally the moment draftspace was created and people started doing this (before that, the equivalent process of userfication was expressly forbidden without prior discussion), others have been pointing out that the underlying logic makes no sense. Draftification is only for articles that shouldn't be deleted, but it's also only for articles that can't be in mainspace. But since fix good content in place is a part of the editing policy and almost all the community accepted reasons for deletion involve the potential of the article, not it's current state, the intersection of those two sets is functionally zero (apart from some consensus-established edge cases like paid creations or upcoming films).
    This is why attempts to clarify and improve policy around draftification—and I've been closely involved in many of them—keep failing. You try to find a solid basis for guidelines and there just isn't one. We really need to stop trying to square the circle of justifying draftification as it is practiced now, and start asking what we the community actually wants to achieve with it and whether what we're doing now fulfils that aim. So far it's not looking good for the send-them-all-to-draftspace-and-the-god-of-notability-will-recognise-his-own camp, because there's not a shred of evidence that it helps improve content, retain editors or manage the NPP workload, and as WAID says above the empirical studies we do have concluded the precise opposite. But that picture could change with more research – somebody just needs to step up and do it! – Joe (talk) 07:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Joe Roe Draftification is only for articles that shouldn't be deleted, but it's also only for articles that can't be in mainspace. That is the exact reason why draftspace exists in the first place. Imagine you see a article with the following content: Nicholas Carlini is an amazing researcher at Google working on adversarial machine learning. created in the last week or so and sourced to a person's personal web-page. On doing a quick google search, you see that the person exists and is a researcher at said company, however, due to your unfamiliarity with adversarial machine learning topic-area you are not able to immediately identify the person's impact on the field. Do you 1) WP:BITEly nominate the article for deletion 2) leave the content up for somebody to deal with it (and hope that the other somebody will not choose option 1) or 3) draftify the article with a note that more sources are required to prove notability? Sohom (talk) 11:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sohom Datta None of them. What you do is add a template to the article noting the lack of sources, leave a friendly message on the creator's talk page explaining the issues in plain English, and leave a note about it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computer science. Depending on what your research found you could add more information, add some sources that might or might not demonstrate notability, remove the peacock terms, etc. Yes, this is more effort than blinding draftifying or AfDing but it is far more important that things get done well than things get done quickly. Thryduulf (talk) 12:37, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Sohom Datta, thanks for creating Nicholas Carlini, whose first version does not contain the hypothetical sentence you gave in your comment above. In your example above, why can't that stay in the mainspace? I frankly don't love it, and I'd immediately pull the word "amazing" out, but what's the policy basis for saying "that article truly can't be in mainspace"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Fangz I'm not arguing for the elimination of draftspace, it has it's uses as an optional space where articles can be developed over time so they don't have to meet all the relevant content policies from the very first edit. I'm also not arguing for the elimination of all draftifcation, just the majority of unilateral draftification because, as Joe has put better than I can, it is not a net benefit to the project as currently practised. Thryduulf (talk) 12:46, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There's a middle ground between meets-GNG-mark-as-reviewed and fails-GNG-send-to-AfD: recently created articles where the sources in the article do not validate GNG, but where the new page reviewer hasn't done a BEFORE search. I think it's perfectly fair (and permissioned within the current draftification process) to say "this recently created article doesn't demonstrate GNG yet, but I'll kick it back to the creator in draft form to put in some more sources." Dclemens1971 (talk) 04:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Punting it to draftspace without doing a BEFORE is definitely not something we should be tolerating. Thryduulf (talk) 10:21, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This would mean we're either leaving these articles unpatrolled (which is obviously undesirable), or giving new page patrollers the job of finding sources on every article where the original author hasn't, which would be ideal in, well, ideal conditions, but puts the burden of actually sourcing the encyclopedia on a very small group of editors. In my opinion, there should be a way to ask the original author to add sources to show it meets GNG, beyond just putting a "notability" tag and being done with it. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Chaotic Enby. Drafification is a good solution because it strongly encourages the author to improve the article, and, most importantly, gets it out of mainspace so that it isn't a problem for innocent readers – without forcing NPPers to clean up other peoples' messes. Cremastra (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Drafticiation [...] strongly encourages the author to improve the article. That's the theory but the evidence is that in practice it very rarely does this. There is also little to no evidence that most pages moved to draftspace are actually a problem for innocent readers rather than being a problem for those who want immediate perfection. Thryduulf (talk) 20:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    About wanting to ask the original author to add sources to show it meets GNG, beyond just putting a "notability" tag and being done with it, I wonder if it's actually possible to do this in a non-coercive way. The options right now are:
    • Just ask (what the {{notability}} tag does).
    • Ask under threat of deletion (WP:BLPPROD and WP:PROD).
    • Move article to Draft: space (essentially holding the article hostage, to be deleted if you give up or can't figure out how to do it).
    • Send to AFD today.
    AFAICT a method for "force another WP:VOLUNTEER to improve the article to my standards" option has proven pretty elusive. But if you want to reach that point, I suggest that you take a baby step towards it in the form of getting a policy (any policy, really) to actually, directly, unambiguously say that every article must cite at least one source. Until the community agrees that this actually is a requirement, then we have no hope of getting them to increase the requirement all the way up to "show it meets GNG". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:20, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a new editor thinks their article is ready for mainspace, they will put it there. They will also happily revert the move. If a new editor is unsure, they will probably ask for help first or use draftspace. Cremastra (talk) 19:35, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the concern expressed by Joe and others who support the "backdoor" theory is that new users do not know how to revert the move to draftspace. Do you disagree with that assumption? Toadspike [Talk] 19:53, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think most users do not know how to revert the move, yes. I also think we shouldn't hand it to them on a silver platter, because that likely largely annuls the whole point of draftification. What is the solution to this? I couldn't tell you. Cremastra (talk) 20:09, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is "the whole point of draftification" to make my view of the subject's value more powerful than the newbies' view? Security through obscurity kind of works for that, but not reliably. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They don't know how, maybe, but more importantly that they don't know that they're allowed to. We have to remember how very unusual our collaborative process is. If an inexperienced editor contributes an article to Wikipedia and then it is swiftly unpublished with a message that there's something wrong with it, they won't think, hmm, I'm not sure if I agree with that, I'm going to revert and/or discuss this with my peer-editors to find a consensus. They'll think that with someone the authority to decide what happens to articles has rejected my contribution, and I'm a mere newbie. At that point they will either give up (the majority) or they'll persevere and get into cycle of trying to satisfy first the NPP reviewer and then a succession of AfC reviewers until they finally give up or manage to write a GA, which seems to be roughly the standard AfC is applying these days Even very experience editors fall into this trap because even though the templated messages try to communicate the full range of options the user has (now at least, after I and others have spent several years fighting for it), it's really hard to communicate that we're all equal and all have a say here within a draft–review structure that implicitly elevates the opinions of reviewers over others. – Joe (talk) 07:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've pulled the most recent 10 articles moved to mainspace with the AFCH script. They are:
That's an average of 372.5 words and 12.6 refs. The median article has 338 words and 4 refs. Compared to existing articles, 53% of our existing articles have fewer than 372.5 words, and 83% have fewer fewer than 12.6 refs. One in six articles has fewer words than the shortest in this list. One of three articles is shorter than the second-shortest in this list.
I think it is clear from these numbers that AFC is expecting more refs than existing community practice, and that they are trying to accept only articles that are already as long as ones that editors have been working on in the mainspace for years.
BTW, during the same span of time, more than 100 pages were deleted from the Draft: namespace. You shouldn't assume this means that more than 90% of drafts get deleted, because deletions are bursty and this is a relatively small sample size, but that's about what I expected. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:56, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A Conclusion: I am sadly not surprised at the current state of this discussion. Some of the heated off-topic arguments verge on NOTHERE behavior. I am very disappointed to see this from experienced editors. To those of you who simply commented on the proposal: I appreciate you a lot.
Since the default NPP draft template was changed to Template:Draft article a day before this discussion began, I think my proposal is moot. I don't see how we could improve that template much, but I may raise some minor wording changes on the Template Talk. If someone wants to close this discussion, that's fine; if others wish to continue discussing other things here, I wish you the all best. Toadspike [Talk] 21:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Worth also talking about the usertalk notification MTD leaves, which only provides one option: submit for review. Agree in principle we shouldn't trick people into thinking draftification/AfC is mandatory for a typical article creator. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 13:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose All it will do is destroy the draft system as it stands and eventualy destroy Wikipedia. This almost happened between 2008 and 2012, before the draft process was available, when Wikipedia was flooded with paid/coi editors and there was no effective system to deal with them. Do folk not understand what draftification is. Every publisher has draft process. It is NOT a route to deletion. That is what the detractors of the system say, many of them who are paid to oppose it and destroy it. It is the one of the core safeguards we have against the complete destruction of Wikipedia. scope_creepTalk 11:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That comment is almost entirely evidence free assumptions of bad faith. Please try engaging with the discussion rather than just knee-jerking oppose to changing the status quo because it would change the status quo. Thryduulf (talk) 12:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Its not evidence free and I resent the fact that you have said my comment bad faith. Why would I make the comment if I didn't know what I was talking about. I've worked in NPP/AFC since it was created and was involved in some of the early discussions. I now how exactly how UPE/paid editors behave. It would lead to an exodus of editors after the place gets flooded with adverts. It would be free-for-all. The reality is that the editor who posted hasn't thought it through and hasn't looked in the archives to see what the situation was like then. scope_creepTalk 16:05, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    "Trust me, I was there" is not evidence. Your comment assumes bad faith from those disagreeing with you, and of everybody submitting new articles. Not every editor is paid (and disclosed paid editing is explicitly allowed), not every paid edit (disclosed or otherwise) is bad, not every paid editor (disclosed or otherwise) is attempting to harm the encyclopaedia, not every paid edit (even undisclosed ones) does harm the encyclopaedia. Thryduulf (talk) 16:19, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is true to certain extent, but the majority of editors who create modern biographical, organisational and product articles which make up the majority are undeclared paid editors. They do not have our best interests at heart and never have done. scope_creepTalk 16:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Even if that is true (and you haven't provided any evidence, of either your assertion or the implications of it that these articles harm Wikipedia and/or that draftification as currently implemented and practice prevents that harm), that doesn't mean that draftification as implemented currently can't be improved and that any changes to the status quo will mean the death of Wikipedia. Thryduulf (talk) 17:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Scope creep, what percentage of articles in the draft space do you think get deleted? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If drafts get deleted, that's because their creators have abandoned them. That's what G13 is. Perhaps more effort should be spent encouraging article writers to improve their articles after they got moved to draft (where they can be improved without interference), but draftification is not deliberate, malicious backdoor deletion, and I resent it being characterized as such. Cremastra (talk) 19:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Is this a Double-barreled question? The comment you're replying to said only "route to deletion", and you've turned it into four separate parts:
    • deliberate
    • malicious
    • backdoor
    • deletion.
    I wouldn't personally characterize any of them as malicious, but I think a fraction of them are deliberate. IMO claiming that nobody ever sent a borderline subject to AFC instead of AFD (which has lower standards in practice) would be rather extraordinary. I frankly don't think we're all so stupid that we can't figure out which route is most likely to end up with the result we prefer.
    If we characterize AFD as the "front door" for deletion, then it seems fair to describe letting articles expire in the Draft: space as the "back door".
    But the original comment is merely that it's not a route to deletion. But if 90–95% all of the articles put on that path actually do end up getting deleted, then is it not basically fair to say that it is one of our routes to deletion? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:22, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The current verbiage of the tag makes it clear to anyone with a lick of common sense, that the article has potential, but in its current form it is not ready for mainspace. Some of the comments here from folks clearly indicate a lack of understanding of what the draftification process is for. If an article, in its current form, passes GNG, then there are only certain circumstances where it should be draftified (e.g. paid editing), but if an article probably would pass GNG, but does not in its current form (e.g. there are not enough in-depth sources from independent, reliable sources to meet the standard), than that is a poster child for draftification. When I was more active in reviewing articles, I created several custom responses, which took the standard message and massaged it a bit depending on the reason for draftification (e.g. UPE, lack of GNG) or a specific topic (e.g. NFOOTY, Populated places). In some instances those messages contained an offer to ping me directly when they felt the article was ready for mainspace. I am all for article creation, but I also care about the quality and reputation of Wikipedia, which is often seen as the punchline for jokes regarding garbage information on the internet. And I would completely disagree with those who say that draftification is not a net benefit. In fact, I think it is one of the most useful tools to helping improve the quality on WP. Is it always used correctly? No. But that's an education problem with individual users, not an overriding issue with the process itself.Onel5969 TT me 14:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Onel5969. (But also remember to not leave !votes as this is the idea lab, not a formal proposal). Cremastra (talk) 14:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Apologies, Cremastra. Onel5969 TT me 19:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That might be fine in theory, but it doesn't match the what is happening in practice. Especially given that articles are being moved to draftspace for not being of sufficient quality that are C or even B class. If an article is neutrally written and meets the GNG then there is no justification for moving it to draftspace just because someone might (or might not) have been paid to edit it. Thryduulf (talk) 15:21, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Thryduulf: Do you have a specific example in mind when you mention C or B class articles? scope_creepTalk 16:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See @WhatamIdoing's comment in this discussion. Thryduulf (talk) 16:15, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This list is the state of articles when they come out of the Draft: space. For articles going in to the Draft: space, here's a current list:
    I have skipped redirects, some round-robin page swaps, and a couple of editors moving AFC submissions from User: space to the Draft: space, and tried to include only articles being moved from the mainspace to the Draft: space. I can't get the ORES ratings for these articles, but at a glance, I think that Start and C-class is not an unreasonable description. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    First, thanks for providing the list. The issue is, in reviewing those drafts, most are solid drafts, and not " Especially given that articles are being moved to draftspace for not being of sufficient quality that are C or even B class." Although I think a more careful explanation could have been made. For example, the first one would have been better with a "more in-depth references from independent, reliable sources" needed, rather than simply saying "more sources needed", as there isn't a single, in-depth reference from an independent, reliable source in the draft. The second and third examples are the exact same issue. The 4th and 5th examples are properly labeled as covert advertising (both editors have been blocked for it - in addition, the 4th one didn't have a single in-depth reference from an independent source, either). The 6th example, while having 3 sources, none are in-depth, and while it might be a spelling difference on the translations of the 2nd and 3rd refs, it does not appear that the article's subject is mentioned in any of them. The 7th article is not a true example of draftification, as it was moved by the author. The 8th and 9th article have zero independent reliable sources (for the 9th, the newspaper referenced does not have a page number, and the link does not appear to bring up anything in depth about the hack lab). Not sure about the 10th, for the history is a bit wacky, but again, does not look like an example of draftification.
I think this illustrates some of the misunderstanding that folks who don't like draftification make. You look at the list provided, and you go, wow, lots of references, most not stubs or micro-stubs, why in the hell were they draftified? Hell, I did that myself, wondering if all 10 were done by a single editor, who perhaps did not have a firm grasp of draftification. But then you dive into the merits of the sourcing, or the upe issues, and it appears all 8 of the draftifications appear justified.Onel5969 TT me 20:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Onel5969, I wonder if you could explain "the newspaper" in the 9th article a little better. You say that the article has "zero independent reliable sources", but traditional print newspapers are independent reliable sources. Then you say it doesn't have a page number, but the link takes you directly to a scanned copy of the correct page; the cited article [title given in the citation] is in the last two columns. None of that makes the newspaper less independent. Is your concern that the article appears to predate the use of the name in the article title ("De Zanbak" means "The Sandbox")? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could be the translation, but there does not appear to be anything connecting the group mentioned in that article, with De Zanbak. But even if there is, agf, that still is the only in-depth independent source. Onel5969 TT me 01:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad we agree that a newspaper is an independent source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a new editor includes 5 sources in their submission and it gets moved to [somewhere I didn't put it] because "more sources needed" or "no sources" how many of them are going to take the time to learn that the experienced editor actually meant none of these sources contain what I think is significant, in-depth coverage in independent reliable sources and then have the confidence to say "actually, this experienced person with the power to remove my article from Wikipedia is wrong and I'm right, I'll learn how to challenge them and how and where to express my view in a way that the powerful people will listen to me" rather than just give up at some point along that path? And before anyone says it, no, just because a few bad faith editors might be among the dissuaded does not justify the loss of good faith editors. Thryduulf (talk) 21:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess that's the difference between editors who care about quality on WP, and those who care about quantity. But that's why I said that the rationale given could have been better. Onel5969 TT me 01:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it really a quality vs quantity question?
Or is this the difference between editors who would rather see a page run through Wikipedia:Articles for deletion or Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers instead of being unilaterally hidden until it gets deleted without the level of community oversight that we expect from AFD? For example, I'm not convinced that "De Zanbak" is a viable subject for an article, but I think there are several ways that we could address that concern, and I don't see the Draft: space helping. In fact, the only thing that moving that page to the Draft: space does that's different from moving that page to the User: space is: It's far more likely to get deleted during the next year if it's in Draft: space than if it's in User: space. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since draftification isn't a "backdoor to deletion", nor is it "hiding an article", it's definitely a question of quality vs. quantity. Draftification, in short, is a quality control measure. These are articles that might be notable enough for mainspace, but simply aren't in good enough shape to be there. But, like other vehicles in WP, good faith editors might disagree on an article's notability, so for example in the De Zandbak articlem, Jay8g (who tagged it for notability), and Jonathan Deamer (who draftified it) might deem it potentially notable, while you, WhatamIdoing, might have simply sent it to AfD, because you do not feel it notable. But that doesn't mean the system isn't working. Perhaps we can tweak the current verbiage in the template to include where resources about where an editor can reach out for help might be added (e.g. AFC or Teahouse)?Onel5969 TT me 09:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since draftification isn't a "backdoor to deletion", nor is it "hiding an article", you say that as if there is no possible way good faith editors could disagree, but that simply isn't true. Whether either of those things is true is a matter of opinion (and, in my opinion, one that is consistent with the evidence presented). Thryduulf (talk) 10:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. No, editors can certainly have different interpretations and disagree on issues. However, in this instance, it is not a matter of disagreement. In order to hold those views indicates a lack of understanding of what the draftification process is. That's not what draftification is, it is, as I've said, simply a quality control measure. It would be like saying, it's a matter of opinion whether or not this person wrote an article about themselves, that can be interpreted as not being COI editing. Of if a an article simply cut and paste the info from Encyclopedia Brittanica, you cannot say it's your opinion that that isn't a copyvio. I mean, I have the utmost respect for you, Thryduulf, and you do a great job on WP. There are things on WP which are subjective (e.g. exactly what constitutes SIGCOV), while others are objective, (e.g. UPE/COI editing, copyvio). What draftification is falls into the latter category. All that being said, we can disagree on whether or not an individual article should or should not have been draftified. You say the evidence presented shows that it was not warranted that those articles be sent to draft. Going through the sources, however, it looks like draftification was justified. That is a difference of opinion. Onel5969 TT me 14:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's your opinion that moving an article to the Draft: space is simply a quality control measure.
It's my opinion that moving an article to the Draft: space is also simply a quality control measure that, compared to the available alternatives of leaving it in the mainspace, sending it to AFD, or moving it to User: space, substantially decreases the likelihood of the quality being improved and substantially increases the likelihood of the article being deleted.
Oh, right: Those last two points ("substantially decreases the likelihood of the quality being improved" and "substantially increases the likelihood of the article being deleted") aren't "opinions". They're objective facts. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rhodesia Railways 19th class is not a list; it's a train that was in operation for multiple ranges of time. Even if it were a list, the empty headings and only content being a table is nowhere near start-class, maybe even substub. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The existing content in the article is an infobox and a table. Tables are the format preferred by Wikipedia:Featured lists. Empty sections aren't banned, and ratings are based on what is already there. I'd rate it as |class=List today. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
only content being a table have you actually read the page? That infobox is full of content, there are two apparently reliable sources and the table itself has about 20 rows of content. Thryduulf (talk) 21:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, yes the infobox as well. I still wouldn't call it a start, though. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can we consider EC level pending changes?

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This is just an idea, and I want to workshop this a bit more, but I think it would be helpful to have pending changes at the extended confirmed level. This could be called "PC2" again (not to be confused with the original PC2) or "PCECP". The idea would be to help enforce WP:ARBECR and similar restrictions where non-extended confirmed users are prohibited from certain topic areas. Under this level, edits by non-extended-confirmed editors would be held for review, while extended confirmed users can approve these edits and thus take responsibility under WP:PROXYING.

I think it would be helpful for pages where (1) parts of the article intersect with a contentious topic, or (2) the article in its entirety intersects with a contentious topic, but not edited frequently. Awesome Aasim 16:54, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like it could be useful. It would have to be restricted to infrequently edited pages (likely excluding all current events articles) so as not to overwhelm Pending Changes every time Reuters publishes a new story or an edit war erupts. The big question is: what problem are you trying to solve? Toadspike [Talk] 20:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are some contentious topics designated either by ArbCom or the community where only extended confirmed users are allowed to participate. However, admins refuse to protect pages where there isn't enough disruption to justify protection. Although, it should be considered that the XCON restriction applies regardless of whether a page is protected or not.
What PCECP would do is essentially remove fears that there "isn't enough disruption to justify protection" while buffering all non-extended-confirmed contributions so they have to be approved, in line with "non-extended-confirmed can only make edit requests". Templates that are specifically for this case like {{edit protected}} break when the page is not protected. Awesome Aasim 22:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that is that the 500/30 rule is specifically designed to keep newer editors out due to extreme amounts of disruption as a rule. There's a good reason why both of the world's main hot wars (the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Russo-Ukrainian war) are under 500/30. And, as has been brought up repeatedly and bears repeating again, high volumes of edits on a given article contraindicate CRASHlock.
But the biggest stumbling block here is that no consensus exists yet for an extended-confirmed CRASHlock. The last discussion about expanding CRASHlock to higher protection levels predates XCP entirely. There would need to be a formal RfC for this, not VP spitballing. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 15:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
XCON protection makes sense for high traffic articles, but low traffic articles? If the edit is minor such as fixing spelling mistakes or grammatical errors, there should be no problem. Fixing spelling and grammar is generally outside of contentious topic areas anyway. From WP:ARBECR: On any page where the restriction is not enforced through extended confirmed protection, this restriction may be enforced by other methods, including ... the use of pending changes.
I probably would set up abuse filters as well to see if a page is in a category that primarily deals with a contentious topic, and then warn and tag the edit in question. Awesome Aasim 16:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most low-traffic CT articles don't have any protection since they never saw amounts of vandalism necessitating protection. Protection requests that solely rely on arb enforcement and little to no evidence of vandalism get declined. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I see that, but the problem is that a non-XCON edit will get approved on pages that not many people are watching. Pending changes still allows non-XCON users to make these edits, but their edits will need to be approved and they can be reverted if in violation of WP:ARBECR. This is also in line with how pending changes is used on low-traffic articles to monitor (not prevent) disruption. Awesome Aasim 18:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Aaron Liu Most low-traffic CT articles don't have any protection since they never saw amounts of vandalism necessitating protection. Protection requests that solely rely on arb enforcement and little to no evidence of vandalism get declined. Untrue, articles in ECR topics can and are pre-emptively locked. What actually happens is that articles with minimal disruption are usually not brought to WP:RFPP or noticed by a wayward admin. Mach61 19:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Untrue, articles in ECR topics can and are pre-emptively locked.

Could you add an example? There is a long list of declined RFPP requests for arbitration enforcement. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See this exchange between an admin who refused to protect based on ECR due to a lack of disruption and a (former) admin who explained to them otherwise. Mach61 19:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I get the "can" now. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:59, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems reasonable. I've always wondered why pending changes isn't deployed more often. It seems a useful tool, and there are lots of pending changes reviewers so very little backlog Cremastra (talk) 14:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because there are enough people who dislike or distrust pending changes that it's hard to get a consensus to use it. See, for example, Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 183#RFC: Pending-changes protection of Today's featured article. Anomie⚔ 14:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, gee, I fucking wonder why? —Jéské Couriano v^_^v threads critiques 15:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would you care to elaborate on your point? I'm not seeing it. Anomie⚔ 17:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe what is needed is this...

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A multi-part RfC asking how ECR should be enforced for existing pages, including based on activity. High traffic pages will need extended protection retroactively as those tend to get the most disruption from ECR violations. Low-traffic pages, not so much, but we can use abuse filters and workshop ECP pending changes for this. Spelling and grammar fixes as far as I am aware are excluded from WP:ARBECR. Awesome Aasim 19:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

#### in [topic]

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Should articles about years in topics be linked in articles? For example, The Little Girl Lost's first link is to 1794 in poetry. The link feels like a Wikipedia:OLINK violation, but isn't specifically stated. Links to just years are already gone, but why aren't the ones about topics actively being removed? Roasted (talk) 22:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Everything started in some year, and linking that year to an article about a bunch of irrelevant info is not helpful. But in an article about a poem written in 1794, it is quite reasonable to link to an article about other very related stuff in that year. That is not a rule but is a defensible view, particularly for poems from 230 years ago where it is a bit of a miracle that we have any record of the poem. Johnuniq (talk) 01:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a defensible view, specifically for subjects that are discussed/linked in the article. It's similar to our WP:BIDIRECTIONAL principle for navboxes: if you can get from 1794 in poetry to The Little Girl Lost, then it would be ideal if you could get back.
I think it is more defensible for shorter/narrower subjects than for sprawling pages. 1794 in poetry is fine. 2023 in film might not be. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:23, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
List of German films of 2023, from which you can rightly get to 2023 in film, could be a different story though. Thryduulf (talk) 10:19, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd leave that one up to editors' judgment, and I wouldn't object whatever they decided.
Another thing to consider is the formatting. Compare these sentences:
For the first, the link label is "1794 poem", and if you are surprised that clicking on "1794 poem" takes you to 1794 in poetry, then perhaps you weren't paying attention to what you were clicking on.
In the second, the link label is "2023", and you might expect 2023 instead of 2023 films. I would suggest changing that link so that it includes the words "in 2023" instead of the year alone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:37, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My 2¢: remove direct links, but put the "YEAR in TOPIC" articles in the "see also" section. This removes any MOS:EGG issues and is if anything more consistent with an analogy to bidirectional navboxes Mach61 03:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like this.
(Man, I wish navboxes were in that section. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

URL expansion bots

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I agree that short URLs are undesirable. However, wouldn't it be better if a bot auto-expanded those URLs instead of them being blacklisted? For example youtu.be into youtube.com/watch?v= , tinyurl.com/example into example.com (that is its actual target). Elominius (criticize | contributions) 09:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason they're blacklisted is not because they're "undesirable", it's because they can be (and have been) used to get around the spam blacklist and other anti-spam measures. If the link is legitimate, there's no reason the user trying to add it can't expand it. Anomie⚔ 11:25, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Creating Template:Wikidata Infobox

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Hi, I propose to create a template called Template:Wikidata Infobox that creates an infobox from information exists on Wikidata. The same idea is implemented in WikiCommons. See https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Quantum_computing and section infobox which uses {{Wikidata Infobox}}. Cheers. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 13:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Using Wikidata for infoboxes has been discussed many times here and is surprisingly (to me) controversial. Some specific infoboxes do incorporate information from Wikidata (iirc Mike Peel has done some work on this), but I don't think a single generic infobox, whether pulling information from Wikidata or otherwise, will gain consensus. I'll leave a note about this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Infoboxes and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikidata. Thryduulf (talk) 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah… a LOT of resistance to importing data from Wikidata into our infoboxes. The two main concerns are Verifiability/reliability (although WD has improved on this front, they still are not in line with our policies) and ease of editing (having to go to WD to edit information appearing on WP can be confusing).
I’ll share a personal experience of confusion… the data focused structure of WD is often incomprehensible to me as a text focused editor here at WP. When I try to fix errors on WD, I have extreme difficulty doing so. simply locating the information I need to edit is hard. The way WD pages are organized and structured is alien gobbledygook to me. Blueboar (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Commons only has one kind of infobox. We have a lot of them that have very different data displayed. Personally, I'd love to incorporate wikidata into nearly all infoboxes, but one generic infobox is impossible to suit our needs. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really think that this type of infobox (maybe in collapse form) is the best replacement for infobox of articles that we cannot create any infobox for them like Quantum computing. These data includes links to WikiQuote and its library id etc., which makes them accessible and at hand. I propose to use this kind of infobox in other sections like "See also" section, instead of top, replacing many existing templates like {{Commons category}}. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 14:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Um, what value could be derived from using d:Q17995793 to populate an infobox for the article Quantum computing? Do we really need an infobox for that article to clarify that the subject is an instance of "academic discipline", subclass of "computation", and is the study of "quantum computer" and/or "quantum supremacy"? This is an excellent example of an article that has no need for an infobox. Folly Mox (talk) 02:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I see you want to use the infobox at the bottom of an article like a navbox? That's less objectionable, and also a different kind of box in our jargon. Folly Mox (talk) 02:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hooman Mallahzadeh, not every article benefits from an infobox. In my opinion, Quantum computing is one of those. Remsense ‥ 论 06:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Remsense There are good links to WikiQuote, Wikiversity, Wikidata, WikiCommons, Library of Congress authority ID, that is attached to the main article by simply transcluding this template. This is a big benefit for Wikidata-Infobox of Quantum computing. But collapsing this Wikidata Infobox by default seems reasonable. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 06:26, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can already do that by linking to the ones that are important at the bottom—this is extremely common, and is already done on that article! That brings up a key point of resistance to this, though. We don't want to outsource much to Wikidata because we can't as easily decide what not to show, lest we pollute articles with metadata that may be useful in a database but is functionally useless garbage in an encyclopedia article. Fundamentally, we shouldn't ever expect editors to have to use Wikidata also.Remsense ‥ 论 06:28, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This method is a little hard, ⁣inserting cumulative links «by one template» seems more reasonable to me. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 06:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, because the decision whether it's worth linking to Wikiquote on a given article should be up to the editors for that article. Remsense ‥ 论 06:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. According to Zeigarnik effect, placing a Wikiquote link that is empty right now, motivates users to complete that page and put some quote about that concept. Hooman Mallahzadeh (talk) 06:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not our job to build Wikiquote, but it is our job not to indiscriminately clutter our encyclopedia articles with useless garbage. Your position would be resented by almost any editor who cares about how the articles they write look and what exactly they present to readers. Remsense ‥ 论 06:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most readers don't care about those. The small bit that care are satisfied by it being at the bottom. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:34, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Something like Category:Earth shows how hard it is to get an automatic, good infobox and not a load of weird entries. "Instance of: "inner planet of the Solar System (Mars, Venus)" And Mercury? if you for some reason list the others here, list them all... "Named after: *soil (Earth) *land (1, 地, 地球) *ball (2, 球, 地球) " Er, what? No idea why the Japanese is shown here. "Inception: 4,541st millennium BC (lead-lead dating, age of the Earth, Young Earth creationism)" Yeah, we sure want a link to Young Earth creationism here... "Dissolved, abolished or demolished date: unknown value (future of Earth)" Not even a link, just the text, as if this is in any way useful. And this is hardly some obscure example. Fram (talk) 14:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
{{Infobox person/Wikidata}}, anyone? — Qwerfjkltalk 18:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What a great way to introduce unverified intormation (errors) and nonsense into Wikipedia articles. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unverified information and incorrect information (what I presume you mean by "errors") are not synonyms. Not everything in WikiData is any of unverified, incorrect or nonsense. Thryduulf (talk) 20:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ssilvers There's an easy parameter to only include information with references. Bad references exist and can be easily fixed using the same methods on both sites. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikidata has different sourcing standards than enwiki - sites that are considered unreliable by enwiki consensus are considered quite fine at Wikidata. Wikidata entries are also left out of existing enwiki cleanup mechanisms. So it's not quite as simple as you're suggesting to apply the same methods to both sites - the two sites have neither the same methods nor a shared understanding of what a "bad reference" even is. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:22, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is anyone trying to develop a shared understanding, or does everyone think that it's just OK that the site are disconnected like that, even thought they could help each other much more? If you have links to discussions, I'd be happy to read them. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 00:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My perception is it's mutual apathy in both userbases: people who write an encyclopedia aren't coterminous with people who want to build a universal database. While the results are unfortunate, it really would be unreasonable to expect one group of volunteers to operate according to the standards of the other. Remsense ‥ 论 06:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then we should make it known to Wikidata why and which sources are bad and often false. I don't see any source that is considered very valid on Wikidata and removed-on-sight on Wikipedia. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[1]. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria, was this a reply to me? Just one comment from one person? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 02:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was not a reply to you. This one would be a better place to start for your question, though that perspective is also relevant. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, point taken. In that case, we do need to have parameter-specific overrides at least. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Curiously, one of the arguments in that RfC is "FInd a Grave is sourced from gravestones". Wouldn't citing the gravestone be better in that case instead? Veering off-topic here, though. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that Wikidata is wrong is just a claim. It's a wiki, it is closely integrated with Wikipedia, and it can be as right or as wrong as Wikipedia itself. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 21:06, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we know Wikipedia is flawed… Which is why we DON’T consider Wikipedia a reliable source, and DON’T use one part of Wikipedia to verify other parts of Wikipedia. Blueboar (talk) 21:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But what's wrong with that if we can machine-verify that the reused part has a source? This isn't about sourcing to Wikidata, it's about reusing sourced content from wikidata, for all the reasons {{excerpt}} is good. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is anyone suggesting to use Wikidata to verify things on Wikipedia? I don't think so. I certainly don't.
People are suggesting to insert things that are written on Wikidata into the English Wikipedia in some cases when it's more efficient to do it. They can be verified just like Wikipedia itself. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 21:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Wikipedia should prioritise efficiency. We should prioritise care. If people want to reuse sourced content from Wikidata, they can add the content and add the source. We shouldn't just invite it in uncurated. Folly Mox (talk) 02:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikidata Infobox on Commons came out of initial work that I was doing here on enwiki - it's the same codebase as {{Infobox person/Wikidata}} and the like, but evolved a lot more due to a lot of constructive input on Commons. It has two views - one for people, one for everything else, and that's been shown to work very well overall, and is a lot more scalable and maintainable than thousands of more specialised templates. Technically, Wikidata infoboxes are quite mature now - and similar ones to this are used a lot on different language Wikipedias. Wikidata is also quite well integrated into different workflows across Wikimedia nowadays (including here with WiR redlists). The main question is a social one: whether the enwp community is interested in pursuing Wikidata infoboxes, and spending the time and energy to constructively contribute to improving data and refining template logic, as the Commons community and other language Wikipedia communities have. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:00, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that, at this point, we still have too much fear of the unknown and Not invented here syndrome to accept much help from Wikidata. Other wikis will (and do) benefit from it, but we will have to nibble around the edges for another decade.
It's possible that we should be exploring something closer to the bi-directional but manual syncing that the Wikivoyages use (e.g., for official websites and the latitude/longitude of notable locations). If you haven't seen that, then go to your favorite vacation destination at voy: (e.g., voy:en:Paris/7th_arrondissement#See) and scroll down until you find a section that has [add listing] next to the usual section editing buttons. Click that and you'll get a big dialog box. On the right, find the blank for Wikidata and put in a famous landmark (e.g., "Eiffel Tower"; it won't save the edit until you manually tell it to). Click on "quick fetch" to see what Wikidata offers (and then "Cancel" all the way out, so you don't make any changes to the article or to Wikidata). There's also a dialog that lets you choose individual bits (e.g., I want my URL but Wikidata's latitude/longitude, or to remotely replace old information in Wikidata with newer information). Something like this could be done, and could even be set to require sources. Adding sources to Wikidata is usually quite easy, as you just choose the type (e.g., ISBN, DOI, URL...) and add the raw id number/URL directly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:49, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Adding sources to Wikidata is usually quite easy, as you just choose the type (e.g., ISBN, DOI, URL...) and add the raw id number/URL directly. "

Random item [2], first unsourced entry: "taxon". "Add reference" opens field "property", which gives a dropdown with 5 possibilities. I want to use a book, so I guess "stated in" would be the right choice. A new dropdown opens, with endless choices, starting with "human"???, "human settlement"???, painting, village, family name... What the bleep is this about??? Perhaps I need to enter "book" and I can continue? Oh, no, it just stops there. Wikidata is extremely non-intuitive and random. Fram (talk) 08:32, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I want to use a book, so I guess "stated in" would be the right choice.

Yeah, so just enter the name of the book... Expecting that it can guess what book you want to cite is quite unreasonable.
You can also just choose "ISBN-13" instead of "stated in". Aaron Liu (talk) 11:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just like MediaWiki's own "non-intuitive and random" syntax for putting in a reference, Wikidata also has help pages like wikidata:Help:Sources that explain this exact thing to you. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it is possible to learn by reading the manual (I would hope so!) I think their challenge to the characterization of it as simply "easy" was fair enough. Remsense ‥ 论 11:54, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's at least as easy to add a reference in Wikidata as it is in Wikipedia. That the methods are not the same does not change this. Thryduulf (talk) 11:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not dispute this. Remsense ‥ 论 11:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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