Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Battle of Saseno

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 23:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Battle of Saseno

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Nominator(s): Cplakidas (talk)

A good example of guerre de course in the Middle Ages and the only Genoese success in the War of Saint Sabas, this battle was won by clever strategy rather than force of arms. It was recently expanded to GA, and I feel confident that it is quite complete and meets the A-class criteria. There's always room for improvement, of course, so thanks in advance to all who take the time to comment here. Constantine ✍ 19:45, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass

All images are free (t · c) buidhe 22:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

Interesting article. I have a few comments:

Lead and infobox

suggest "off Saseno Island off the coast of the Despotate of Epirus (modern Albania)"
- Actually, this area was ceded to Manfred of Sicily by Epirus, conquered by the Byzantines after the Battle of Pelagonia, and then reconquered by Manfred. We don't have an article for this apart from Philippe Chinard and the 'Background' section of Kingdom of Albania (medieval).

Then link that, not modern Albania. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:36, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This hasn't been done in the lead. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:05, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

given they were both republics, "the Republic's economy" isn't clear. How about "to the Venetian economy"
- Excellent point, done
suggest "and in 1270 the two states concluded a truce"
- Done
it would be good to put either a ship image or a location map in the infobox
- Done
suggest "|result=Genoese victory, with most of the Venetian convoy being captured or sunk"
- Done
I find the Italian ship names unhelpful, and suggest: 13 taride galleys, 1 saetta scouting galley, 1 panzione transport ship, 3 navi large transport ships, same goes for the mentions in the body
- They are the technical terms used in English literature as well, though. Have adopted this for the infobox as it provides easy overview, but in the main article, I prefer to stick by the current practice.

Body

"of Venice and Genoa broke out in 1256 over access"
- Done
consider linking convoy
- Done
"During this period, ~~the Republic of~~ Venice"
- Prefer not; this was very much a state-controlled enterprise, not just the city generally
link Aegean Sea
- Done
"with a crew of 3,500 men."→"crewed by 3,500 men."
- Done
"and there await"
- Done
the section heading "Campaign" doesn't work. This is apparently a "campaign" but a "Battle" with a preliminary deception plan
- Disagree: this was a seasonal campaign, which began in June with the Genoese fleet's sailing, culminated in a major naval battle (Saseno) in mid-August, and includes Barozzi's attack on Tyre in early September. Given the nature of naval warfare at the time, which was highly seasonal, you should not expect multi-year (or even multi-engagement) campaigns like you would see in more recent centuries.

My point is that it is the article is titled battle and a campaign isn't mention anywhere, so the main section of the body should be about the battle itself. The other stuff is deception operations. Perhaps change the structure to get rid of the Campaign heading and just have two sections, "Deception" and "Battle". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:44, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- - Done
"Grillo set sail in June, with strict orders to sail to the Levant." Why? Wasn't his job to intercept and capture the convoy? How was he going to do that in the Levant?
- Good point, will have to look into that.
  - Have clarified that. Please have a look.
link Acre, Israel
- Done
link Annali Genovesi
- Done. Had them already linked, but then moved this part into a footnote.
"and that he was unlikely to achieve anything worthwhile there" and "deviating from the orders he had been given" again, it isn't clear what his orders were.
- As above, will look into that and rewrite accordingly
link marines
- Done
"off the island of Saseno, off the coast of the Despotate of Epirus (today..."
- Per above
"the swift and agile Genoese galleys"
- Done
"~~According to the sources,~~" as everything should be
- Hmmm, yes, I wanted to point out that this is indeed what the medieval sources report; the story is a bit unlikely, after all. Changed slightly to this effect.
link Fire ship
- Done
say Ragusa is in the southern Adriatic
- Done
for neatness, suggest numerical ordering of citations, ie [29][30][17]→.[17][29][30], there is another example
- Done
link Doge of Venice and perhaps name him?
- Good point, done

More to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 12:06, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Arriving ~~before~~at Tyre"
- Done

That's it. Nice work. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:56, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Peacemaker67, I've dealt with the final points raised above. Please have a look. Looking forward to any further comments. Constantine ✍ 12:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Much clearer now regarding what the sources say about the orders. Supporting, but suggest you use the same piped link for Albania in the lead that you now use in the infobox. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

All of the sources look reliable enough for what they're cited for, and the source balance looks good. I spot checked a few of the Weil citations, and they were good, although there was a spelling difference in one: Canale vs Canal. Hog Farm _Bacon 03:09, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Hog Farm

I'll take a look at this. Hog Farm _Bacon 14:44, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

" on 14 August 1264 off Saseno island off the coast of Albania," - Is there a way to reduce this to only using one "off", to eliminate the close repitition?
- Done
Link galleys in the lead
- Done
"The importance of these convoys to the Venetian economy can hardly be overstated:" - Is this included on pages 13 and 14 of Manfroni, or is just the quote from there?
- Just the quote
"Annali Genovesi" - Move the link from the second mention to the first
- Done
"with the east for that year.[20]due east[36][37]" - Where does the doubly-cited sentence fragment "due east" come from? It seems like it shouldn't be here
- A copy-paste slip. Removed.
" assisted by his subaltern officers" - Subaltern is also a military rank itself, which is what I thought of first. Either use a different word or link to subaltern on Wikitionary.
- Done
" he encountered a Genoese merchantman carrying 11,000 bezants worth of silk, the Oliva, in the harbour." - move ", the Oliva" to between merchantman and carrying
- Done

Very nice work. That's all the comments I have, I believe. Hog Farm _Bacon 15:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Hog Farm. Please have a look at the changes, and if there is anything else, let me know. Cheers, Constantine ✍ 15:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

"between the fleet of the Republic of Genoa". Just checking that it was the entire fleet, and not just a fleet.
- Hmmm, good point. Both are actually correct, in the sense that it was the fleet currently operational, but it was certainly not every ship Genoa possessed. Changed to a to be on the same side
"The Genoese had experienced only defeats". This comes a bit out of nowhere. Maybe 'So far in the war the Genoese had experienced only defeats' or something similar?
- Changed
Background: I am not sure about that quote and MOS:QUOTE "While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style and may be a copyright infringement. It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate".
- I agree and considered that, but it would be either very close paraphrasing due to the denseness of the information conveyed, or adding a lot of pointless verbiage, and hence counterproductive.
"With its victories in the Battle of Acre in 1258 and again in the Battle of Settepozzi in 1263" Either "victories" → "victory" or delete "again".
- Changed.
"During this period". Which period? Do you mean during the war? If so, it may be clearer to say so.
- Clarified.
"while the rest sailed southeast". "rest" → either 'other' or 'others'.
- Fixed
"of keeping their commercial rivals away from Byzantine-held lands and to prevent passage". Either "of keeping" → 'to keep' or "to prevent passage" → "preventing passage".
- Fixed.
"who delayed the sailing of the convoy" If known, could we insert 'spring' or 'late-summer' before "convoy"?
- Good point, added.
Note b: "while the Annali Genovesi record 44 galleys plus further eight navi and taride" "record" → 'records'; insert 'a' after "plus".
- Fixed.
"he moved his fleet east". North east? (Or even north.)
- Changed.
"captured the entire Genoese battle fleet at the Battle of Trapani. At the same time". I don't think that you actually mean "At the same time".
- Fixed.

Great stuff, and a fascinating read. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot Gog the Mild, glad you enjoyed it. I've fixed most of the points you remarked on, anything else? Constantine ✍ 19:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. That all looks very sound. Supporting. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.