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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

SMS Friedrich der Grosse (1911)

[edit]
Nominator(s): Parsecboy (talk)


Another German battleship graces the MILHIST A-class review (though not the last, to be sure). Friedrich der Grosse was the fleet flagship for the majority of World War I and saw extensive service during the conflict. Like most of the other capital ships of the German Imperial Navy, the vessel was scuttled at Scapa Flow after the war and later broken up for scrap. I look forward to working with reviewers to ensure the article meets our criteria and to prepare the article for an eventual run at FAC. Thanks in advance to all those who take the time to review the article. Parsecboy (talk) 01:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments;

My main concern is that "construction" section is too brief. I often find myself saying in warship A-class reviews that we need more information on the "why" as well as the "what" - and to be honest I think this is a bit of an issue for Kaiser class battleship as well. For instance, there we have a mention of the fact that the class were the first German battleships with turbines, but no discussion of why turbines were used; description of the armament but no discussion of why those calibres were chosen or what the role of the secondary armament was. I think this kind of thing is really quite important for top-notch articles.
I really don't like to have a lot of overlap between the class and ship articles (though I do agree that the class article could use some work - I wrote it before Staff's book, which has a great deal of this kind of information, was published. At some point, I'm going to go through the older articles and update them accordingly. Parsecboy (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Knoop and Schmolke go into a bigger discussion about fuel efficiency of the different power plants available at the time. The choice for turbines was not that obvious. I recommend reading it. Koop and Schmolke was published in 1999 (10 years before the article was written), but then again it is an unreliable German source... MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:42, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I want to mention that I am not the biggest fan of Osprey books. I own a number of them and they are a good supplement to the other literature I own but they tend to lack preciseness. Generally speaking, I get a condensed overview of what happened out of them. But for detail you have to look elsewhere. This is my personal opinion here. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:24, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Osprey books are generally only so-so, but Staff's books are always highly detailed. Parsecboy (talk) 10:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd feel quite reluctant to support an article at A-class which didn't have this material in it. If the reason for the absence of the material is that it duplicates the class article, then fair enough. But if this kind of thing is omitted entirely, we're not covering the subject well enough. The Land (talk) 14:49, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
A deficiency in the class article shouldn't cause problems for this one - this type of information generally is not included in individual ship articles, unless they were unique vessels. Parsecboy (talk) 01:23, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In particular armour is scarcely mentioned in the "construction" section and so there is no context to the figures quoted in the infobox, which are maximums.
Added a couple of lines on the armor protection. Parsecboy (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
3rd para of construction: The 8.8cm AA guns would not have been in the original design. At what stage were they added?
It's unclear when the guns were added - Conways, Groner, and Staff do not give a date or even a year. Parsecboy (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How much did she cost?
Added. Parsecboy (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would recommend comparing the price of 45,802,000 Marks to the annual salary of a metal worker at the time who earned 1,366 Marks annually. This would help me understand the order of magnitude this ship had cost. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Service history; an indication here that she became flagship upon commissioning would be good (it's in the lead but should probably be mentioned at this stage too).
This was in the construction section, but I agree that it fits better in the service section. Parsecboy (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The "Subsequent operations" heading looks slightly odd, preceding as it does "Operation Albion" - perhaps "Subsequent North Sea operations" would be clearer?
Made the change. Parsecboy (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But generally speaking the service history section is pretty good, well done. Particularly like the map of ships scuppered at Scapa!

Regards, The Land (talk) 15:34, 27 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Comments You know the drill. - Dank (push to talk)

  • You know, in our last Imperial Navy battleship, I really liked Rumiton's reasoning on "His German Majesty's Ship", to avoid confusion with the British navy. Now I'm not seeing it; sure, I like "His German Majesty's Ship" if it's sitting by itself somewhere, but this is clearly a translation ... who's going to look at all that German, before and after, and confuse this with a British ship? And I think we're constrained that when we say or imply something is a translation, it should actually be a translation ... not necessarily literal, but at least a good translation. I haven't seen any sources yet that translate that phrase that way. So I'm going to leave "His Majesty's Ship" alone. - Dank (push to talk) 03:46, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Can't we add, at least in a footnote, that SMS abbreviates Seiner Majestät Schiff which translates to "His Majesty's Ship". At least this way the reader would get a clue what the letters SMS stand for. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:09, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in favor if Nate is ... he says he's making some changes tonight, I'll have a look then. - Dank (push to talk) 13:58, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
How's this for a solution: I left "German" out, and added a footnote directly after the translation with the link to Seiner Majestät Schiff. Do you think that makes it clear while not over-complicating the issue? Parsecboy (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, that works for me. - Dank (push to talk) 18:55, 18 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Question My English is not that good but shouldn't "ammunition" be replataced with "munition"? According to the WP article on ammunition it states "The collective term for all types of ammunition is munitions." The sentence "The rest of the fleet entered Wilhelmshaven, where Friedrich der Grosse and the other ships still in fighting condition replenished their stocks of coal and ammunition", according to my interpretation, would make munition more suitable. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:36, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Either would probably work, but I think "munition" is too general for this context. "Munition" can mean bombs, rockets, and other projectiles, while ammunition generally refers only to gun-fired projectiles. Parsecboy (talk) 20:46, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Okay, I understand that German terms, German sources, etc. are to be avoided as much as possible (this was made very clear to me), but please put yourselves in the shoes of a reader who is unfamiliar with this subject. I read the section on the "Battle of Jutland" three times now and I still have difficulties figuring out who the Germans were and who the British were. You use terms like "V Division, III Battle Squadron", "I Division, I Battle Squadron", "1st Battlecruiser Squadron", "I Scouting Group", "2nd Light Cruiser Squadron", "I Squadron ships". You have to be very familiar with the subject and only in context can you figure out who was who. Have a look at sentences like "At 17:30, König's crew spotted both the I Scouting Group and the 1st Battlecruiser Squadron approaching." I think in this context a linguistic twist would help me understand much better. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:57, 31 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - excellent article in the series. Be careful translating high quality German sources which might be considered WP:OR by a FA reviewer and should be limited; the two Koop references in this one are kind of extreme minute details (the name of the ship which returned the bell? who attended the launching? really?) probably not in line with WP:Summary and I wouldn't have noticed if they were deleted. Also, I personally want to know why no one has translated Koop into English but that's isn't your problem! Kirk (talk) 14:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

As far as I can tell, no, there are no unaddressed comments. Thanks for checking, AR. Parsecboy (talk) 11:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've sent MisterBee and The Land a message asking them to take another look. I just want to make sure that they are happy that their comments have been addressed. I'll look to close it in the next 36 hours or so. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 13:44, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, there's been no response, so I will close this now. As the article has three explicit supports and it appears that the remaining comments have been addressed, I have closed it as successful. AustralianRupert (talk) 20:23, 23 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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