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This is an archive page for Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub Sorting. Please move completed August discussions to this page as they occur, add discussion headers to each proposal showing the result, and leave any incomplete discussions on the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals page for now.

Stub proposers please note: Items tagged as "nocreate" or "no consensus" are welcome for re-proposal if and when circumstances are auspicious.

Discussion header: {{sfp create}}, {{sfp nocreate}}, {{sfp other}} (for no consensus), or {{sfp top}} for customized result description (use {{sfp top|result}}).
Discussion footer: {{sfd bottom}}

In the future, those who create a stub template/cat should be responsible for moving the discussion here. Any unresolved or rejected types can be migrated by consensus on the proposals page after a reasonable amount of time.

August 2006

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Pop songs split

To continue a familiar pattern:

Again, overkill for a mere five-pager, but equally they're easy to do by bot. (And hopefully not error-prone, like US states that categorise inside each other...) Alai 06:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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Canadian bridge (structure) stubs

To help thin out Category:Bridge (structure) stubs, I would like to propose subcategory "Category:Canada bridge (structure) stubs" for Canadian bridges, the same way we also have the subcategory Category:United States bridge (structure) stubs. --Stephane Charette 16:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

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Myth stubs - 1 for Each Continent of the World

I think we need the following myth stubs in order to sort the multiplying information on gods, goddesses, and myths into what region of the world. Here are the continents missing and suggested naming convention:

  • {{MEast-myth-stub}} for myths from Middle East ancient civilizations (Mesopotamia, Sumaria, Arab, Persia, Israel, Babylon)
  • {{SouthAm-myth-stub}} for myths from South America (i.e. lots of Inca, Chile, Peru and Brazil mythology exists to date)
  • {{CentralAm-myth-stub}} for myths from Central America (i.e. lots of Aztec mythology exists to date)

I was sorting the myth stubs but have no where to put myths from these large regions or continents! I probably don't need to explain Middle East ancient civilizations, or Australia. For the Americas, there is already the {{americas-myth-stub}} it does not want central or south america myths? I've got the Aztec and Inca myths saved under mesoamerican-stub and pre-columbian-stub - for the time being. It would be natural to split America Myths into 3 regions: North, Central and South. Goldenrowley 01:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Right. I was going to ask why you wanted the mid-east split off, then I realised you mean the Middle East - which never includes India, BTW. Correct names would be {{MEast-myth-stub}} (and {{India-myth-stub}}, {{Oceania-myth-stub}}, {{SouthAm-myth-stub}}, and {{CentralAm-myth-stub}}. As you can see, one of those already exists, as does {{Asia-myth-stub}}, which currently takes the Middle Eastern myth stubs. Many of the Indian ones are covered by {{Hindu-myth-stub}}, too.
BTW, you may like to know that "aboriginals" is often regarded as insulting in Australia (the term is either "Aborigines" or "Koori"), and doubly so in New Zealand, (where the term is "Maori"). They (and I) would feel doubly insulted by the suggestion that New Zealand is part of Australia. Please be more careful in making proposals! Grutness...wha? 02:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks I went back and changed the proposals based on Grutness' feedback. I certainly do not mean any insult to any native people or region, sorry, I was just trying to cover the continents.
  • Myths and legend project have a "most wanted" list out that includes many requests for "Middle Eastern" -- it should not be in Asia any longer.
  • I can't see a critical mass (at this time) to make a myth stub for India (apart from Hindu myths) -- so India can remain in Asia although can be monitored
  • I can't see a critical mass (at this time) to make a myth stub for New Zealand, but dropped the idea to merge it with Australia.
  • addition proposing {{americas-myth-stub}} be renamed {{NorthAm-myth-stub}}, at the same time as adding Central and South America stubs. Goldenrowley 19:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd oppose the middle eastern as a separate category until there's at least 60 stubs to populate it: this is Wikiproject stub sorting, not most-requested-sorting, and redlinks don't fill out a stub category well. :) However, I'd fully support a {{MiddleEast-myth-stub}} (or {{MEast-myth-stub}} to its friends) template, upmerged pro temps to the Asian category. For the antipodes, perhaps Oceanania-myth-stub, if there's the population (at the risk of confusing matters by not following the UEFA confederation regions...). Alai 20:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks I began a list of pages that qualify as Middle Eastern myth stubs and I have reached 60. I feel can easily double or triple the rate I am finding them Goldenrowley 01:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds good to me, support on that basis. Don't overdo things, save some energy for sorting the stubs. :) Alai 03:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as the New Zealand ones are concerned, given that there's an oceania-myth-stub (but no oceanania-myth-stub, Alai ;) it's less urgent, but it may be worth later considering separate Polynesia, Melanesia and Micronesia myth-stubs, those being the biggest three ethnic divisions within Oceania, and having a lot of myths in common within each one (many NZ myths are also found in other parts of Polynesia, for instance). I'd definitely support MEast-myth-stub if it's reached 60, and also ones for Australia and the proposals for the Americas if they too get to the same total. Grutness...wha? 05:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC) (PS - no harm done with the original proposals - I figures there was no deliberate aim to insult :) Grutness...wha? 05:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Bah.  :) Alai 06:05, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Phew glad I am off the hook for my NZ goof, Grutness! The Middle East and Americas are nearly ready to stub (got my lists ready). I am not sure I can find 60 Australian myths this summer. Maybe we can agree to change the description part of the stub "Oceania" to "Oceania and Australia" for clarity at least.Goldenrowley 21:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
No need. Oceania almost always includes Australia. It seems silly making it "All these countries including Australia plus Australia" Grutness...wha? 00:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC) (sorry - forgot to sign)
I agree with Mystery Caller above. What I would support is an explicit scoping statement on the category page, and a separate template {{Australia-myth-stub}} feeding into the same category. Alai 00:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok. that seems perfect! Goldenrowley 02:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Wisconsin-state-highway-stub}}

There are at least 66 of these - one entire column at 200 articles per page, 3 columns is made up of Wisconsin highway stubs. There are plenty more, of course, but this proves it meets threshold. Crystallina 17:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

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new novel categories

The novel category is really big, but as far as I can see, most are not genre novels. There are a couple of ways to break it up. I think the least arbitrary way to break up the category is by decade - and lots of people will specialize in books of a particular period. To stop the confusion of whether to sort a 70s sci-fi novel by genre or date, I think these new tags should be marked "litnovel" for literary novel, or something of that kind. So you'll have:

and so on. I haven't checked to see which decades are most in demand, but as there are nine pages of novels I'm pretty sure we won't have any trouble with empty decades.

I think this is a better solution than further subdividing by style, since whether a novel is comic or magic-realist or whatever is pretty subjective. However, another way to split the category would be to divide British and American novels (again with litnovel rather than novel so British mysteries and such didn't confuse). So, as an alternative to the above:

With other nationalities added as needed. The first option would be more useful for categorizing books in English, but obviously as wiki grows we'll need categories for books in other languages, so the second option would fit in better to that scheme.

One added genre that would not go amiss is Young adult: {{YA-novel-stub}}

Dybryd 07:13, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm happy to say there is no category of Category:Literary novels, Category:Non-genre novels, as it's a sufficiently problematic concept as to be well worth not setting me off on. For the same reasons, oppose any genre split by non-genre, marketing elitism, etc. Support splitting the novels en masse by decade, i.e. simply {{1950s-novel-stub}}, etc. Alai 07:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Wait a minute, I don't just support it, I already proposed it. Alai 07:46, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Wait, do I delete this now as a duplicate? Except then I'd be deleting you, too. Given the state of publishing today, seeing literary novels as an "elite" category seems a pretty hard concept to sustain. But whatever, I just don't want people to be confused about where to put their 1970s mystery--and putting it together with the 1970s sci-fi would be no kindness to the genre-based fans who will most likely be expanding these stubs. Dybryd 08:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
        • I assume you'd want to keep the section in place for the young adult proposal, at least -- on which, btw, a less cryptic template name, please: and how many likely stubs? It didn't show up when I looked for possible splits, but perhaps that's just an artefact of . I think the link between the two connects the two discussions adequately, so I have no objection to you leaving this in place (or striking or deleting, if you'd prefer). It might be the elitism of the garret, but the idea that one has "genre work" on the one hand, and "literature" on the other is positively dripping with intellectual snobbery (I'm not imputing this idea to you, I wish to make clear, just making the general observation of this as a trend of marketing and criticism). A standard patronising "compliment" being to note that someone's work "transcends the genre", with a rather obvious assumption as to which direction is the gutter, and which the sphere celestrial. It's also inherently weaselly, as the standard tactic is to declare "literary" writer so-and-so's fantasy-by-any-objective-definition to be "magical realism", or someone else's work "too good to be SF" (a tactic otherwise known as guilt by association, run in reverse (exoneration by dissociation?)). See the literary fiction article for more-issues-than-actual-definition in the same vein... I do agree that by-genre expansion is most likely, and for the reason I'm fully in favour of sorting by genre first, and indeed suggesting as much with a politely-worded request to that effect on the category. But deciding whether a given no-specified-genre is a "litnovel-stub", or a mere (popular) "novel-stub" is really not the work of stub-sorting, in my view. Alai 08:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support creation of a young adult novel stub by any name; it's a huge field and it has a parent category already. Oppose creation of anything called a "literary novel" as it's Just Too Hard To Define. I would prefer splitting them by century or decade. Cheers, ♥ Her Pegship♥ 17:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose litnovel as POV. Are the Hugo Award for Best Novel winners not literary? --Usgnus 03:58, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{US-athletics-bio-stub}}

I was surprised this didn't exist already. It'd get a lot of stubs out of both {{athletics-bio-stub}} (8 pages) and {{US-sport-bio-stub}} (not sure how many pages but I think it's rather large). Crystallina 03:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

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US basketball bio split

The parent is seven pages, so the above won't do it entirely, size-wise. However, the only other permcat-based splits I can find are per-team based splits, which haven't been wildly popular in the past... Alai 01:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

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The last two South American national geo-stubs!

I've just added a 65th French Guiana geo-stub... Suriname and French Guiana are both now at threshold - the last two countries/territories in South America. Adding {{Suriname-geo-stub}} and {{FrenchGuiana-geo-stub}} will completely empty Category:South America geography stubs in fact, so it's worth considering getting rid of that cat's template, too, and leaving it just as a parent. Grutness...wha? 11:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations! I have been wondering when they'd make it. Support per nom (and if we don't need the template, then by all means). Valentinian (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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Rugby bio split

Counts are non-exclusive. Alai 03:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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Split of School Stubs

{{school-stub}} is four pages. I'd like to nip it in the bud before it gets larger. Creating {{Asia-school-stub}} and Category:Asia school stubs would remove a significant (100+) amount of articles. Aelfthrytha 02:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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Fin-comp-stub split

These may well be de-oversize-able just by sorting to the new US- subtype, but the following also look viable:

Assuming I'm not missing any massive amount of false-possing. Alai 02:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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Newspaper split

Slight overkill for a five-pager, but... Alai 01:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little less happy with the language category (since it will lead to a lot of double-stubbing), but the other two certainly make sense. Grutness...wha? 06:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I was looking to cover my bases, but had forgotten we'd already started splitting regionally, so I agree that the language-based split is a bit pointless. Alai 07:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Where Alai sees "overkill", I see "an oversized cat getting a stake through the heart", which is rare enough. Support Asia- and Euro-. --CComMack (t•c) 10:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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Album stubs split

Yes, yet more albums:

Obviously the first two are viable unto themselves; the remainder I suggest we create largely as "container" categories for the already-existing by-genre and by-decade cats. Alai 01:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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UK schools split

Following the obvious pattern of by splitting by geographical sub-division:

That ought to be enough to whack it back to non-oversized for now. A more systematic split might go with English regions. Alai 00:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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European "stadium" split

Five-page parent. Let's start creating these at vaguely sensible names: if there's no hope of splitting sports venues either by form, or by function, let's give them an appropriately generic name, which echos the perm cat (Category:Sports venues). (SFR of existing types to follow, unless this gets stomped all over on.) Alai 23:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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Electronic albums by decade

As below, pretty much. Alai 22:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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Hip hop albums by decade

Following the pattern of the rock, metal, indie rock, etc -- and just about the only axis I can find to split this five-pager, I propose:

Incidentally, several by-year splits would be possible (in fact, every year from 2002), but those seem to have proved less popular. Alai 22:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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Pakistan geo split

This is a bit more like it:

Parent is only five pages, so all the above would be overkill. Alai 19:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Support, and let me know so I can help sort it. Aelfthrytha 02:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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United States roads split

Yes, these are actually over-full again, and there are some actually viable splits available. I suggest the following, scoped to be as inclusive as possible, and named to be as innocuous as possible, given recent arbitration-related shenanigans.

In each case, the perm-parent I'm counting from is a "state highway", but that's a) not as inclusive as it might be, and b) likely to be subject to dispute, so let's not go there. If we can scrounge a couple more, then Category:Ohio road stubs at 57 is also a possibility. Alai 18:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{California-struct-stub}} / Category:California buildings and structures stubs

See comments two proposals down. Alai 05:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Japanese artist stubs

107 of these, oversized parent. Alai 01:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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Greek location split

Another six-page geo, splittable by the following peripheries of Greece.

There's scoping nuances between Category:Epirus and Category:Epirus (periphery), but I think not enough to keep anyone awake at night, or to insert same into the stub category names. Alai 00:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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New Zealand location split

Geo-stub Coordinator-General and NZ-stubber Pursuivant, are you asleep at the switch? :) Six pages, the following appear to be splittable:

Perhaps we can drop the NZ qualifier from some of the cat names; the above are echoing the perm-cat names. Alai 00:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm here :) - but I missed this one while wading through all the new proposals, and it was only four pages last time I checked! I've been thinking of a split like this for a while... I support, but would make the following slight tweaks to the naming:
I think they'd probably be unambiguous enough (The West Coast region is almost always called Westland within NZ - after all, both islands have a west coast). There's a tiny bit of overlap, particularly Otago/Southland, but not enough to cause any real probolems (let's face it, rivers will often overlap anyway). Other regions such as Wellington and Waikato can't be far off splitting, either. Grutness...wha? 00:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure about your names: I'm following the permcats here, and there's no Category:Auckland Region or Category:Westland. (Southland seems fair enough, unless anyone finds it too unclear or ambiguous.) Funny you should mention the rivers: they're easily viable as a type unto themselves, though I didn't check to see how much overlap they, and the mountains, etc, cause between regions. You're not wrong about the bubbling unders: Category:Wellington Region (sic!) is on 52, Category:Waikato is on 46. Category:Bay of Plenty-East Coast (siccer?) has them beat on 55, though. Nelson, Marlborough, Manawatu-Wanganui, Central North Island, and Northland are all in the 40-30 range (in that order). Obviously I'd be fully in favour of the "templatise everything in sight" model. Alai 01:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the main articles for one of them is at Auckland Region - and given that the region includes and is dominated by a city called Auckland, it's definitely a better term to use. The permcats are a slight problem, BTW (and probably originally my fault). The actual governmental regions of New Zealand are slightly different to them, as can be seen if you look at Regions of New Zealand. The template at the bottom of the article suggests Fiordland is a 13th region, but it is usually considered part of Southland. You're right about the West Coast though. I'm just concerned that people will start adding stubs relating to places like Piha and Karekare to it. I'm going to suggest some permcat changes at the NZ noticeboard so that they match the actual regions, BTW. Grutness...wha? 02:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'll take your word for it that the permcats will be "eventually trending" in that direction, unless I hear different. The count for Southland will include those for Fiordland (23), as it's a subcat. If there's any other anomalies give me a "hold on" before I sic the 'bot on them (or else make good after the fact). Alai 02:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The only other differences would be to ones not yet proposed (i.e., don't make any of those other templates yet!). Auckland's the only one of the proposals that would be affected (for my actual proposed changes, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New Zealand. Grutness...wha? 07:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
PS - forgot to say, there probably isn't too much double stubbing of rivers, especially in the S.I., except where they form borders of regions. Many of the mountains in the Southern Alps would get both CanterburyNZ-geo-stub and WestCoastNZ-geo-stub though (yeah, OK - West Coast not Westland). Grutness...wha? 07:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

BTW - Thames-Coromandel is technically part of the Waikato Region (and if the roosed new categorisation goes ahead, it'll be a subcat of it). Would that ush Waikato-geo-stub above threshold? Grutness...wha? 01:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, 27 in that, making 66 in total. (Note the overlap.) Any other rogue districts that should be subcats, but aren't? Alai 01:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
The only three other problem areas are EC-BoP, which should be split between the two separate regions, Nelson, which also needs splitting between the Nelson and Tasman regions, and Central North Island, which isn't a real region and takes in places in several regions (including Waikato, so that would increase the total further still). Grutness...wha? 01:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
OK. If you fix those up, then a future db dump will pick up the new categories, and give more useful fix for those, too. OTOH the current proposal should keep them below threshold for the time being, it would seem (unless they're growing like, say, the Swiss geos...). Alai 02:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, this is a done deal as far as I'm concerned, but if anyone's feeling super-keen, there's 27 apparent double-stubbing candidates I haven't resolved that would further deplete the parent, and if anyone's feeling really keen, they could tag the remainder with {{CanterburyNZ-geo-stub}}, {{Nelson-geo-stub}}, {{Marlborough-geo-stub}}, {{Tasman-geo-stub}}, {{Gisborne-geo-stub}}, {{ManawatuWanganui-geo-stub}}, {{Taranaki-geo-stub}}, {{Hawke'sBay-geo-stub}}, {{BayofPlenty-geo-stub}}, {{Northland-geo-stub}} and {{Wellington-geo-stub}} -- all upmerged templates for now, but at least one (Wellington) is close to being a viable split. Alai 04:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Most of them are on the borders between two regions - I've added some annotations to the list. I've also added a redirect from HawkesBay-geo-stub, since most NZers (including a lot of government departments) ignore the apostrophe. Grutness...wha? 10:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{US-bassist-stub}} / Category:United States bassist stubs

There's 42 of these double-stubbed: anyone able to find another 18? Alai 04:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Chinese sportspeople stubs

Could have sworn I'd already proposed this (under some other name?), but I'll be blowed if I can find it. Anyhoo, 83 in the oversized China-bios, under Category:Chinese sportspeople. Alai 22:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Ukraine-hist-stub}} / Category:History of Ukraine stubs

I created these prior to reading the policy. I apologize for that. Nevertheless, the above are proposed for stubs. Others and myself will populate the category to demonstrate that it meets the criteria of a "good number" as outlined in the relevant policy. Regards, --Riurik 19:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Oppose: often created, never populated remotely within threshold, despite some heroic attempts at triple-tagging certain articles. Instead I'd like to suggest a Category:Eastern European history stubs, which I confess I thought already existed. This would also take in the equally unproposed (though less deleted) Category:Belarusian history stubs, which I'll be taking to SFD in the fullness of time. Alai 19:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support new stub and a cat. East-Slavic history stub was created a while ago and I discussed it with Grutness. It is only remotely related to the issue of the History of UA stub itself and cat. Please study the issue a little before coming up with the proposals like to upmerge. While East Slavic history is a history of Ukraine, the reverse is not true. East slavic history is a period of history related to the modern nations of UA, BE and RU for the period of their common statehood and etnos. --Irpen 00:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
    • As for the underpopulated argument, I can write in a matter of an hour 30 stubs like "XXX was YYY that happened in ZZZ and the main participants were AAA and BBB" IMO, such substubs do more harm than good, but if some think otherwise and see the need for such articles, please say so. --Irpen 00:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
      • I agree, that would be pointless as best. As is quadruple-stubbing stubs with the history types of different modern-day countries that didn't exist at the time of the event in question, and creating stub types that are, realistically, seriously undersized. And please explain (slowly and with small words as necessary) why neither of the above-suggested upmerged are not appropriate, rather rather merely allude to your superior, and my greatly inferior knowledge. Is Ukraine not an East Slavic nation? Is it not in Eastern Europe? If you're assuming the first type is restricted to Early East Slavic history, that doesn't appear to be reflect in the scoping statement of the category. Alai 18:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
        • By convention among all scholars, "East Slavic history" always refers to the early East Slavic history. I hope I answered this consern you have. Now, you have a point that not everything that happened in the territory of modern-day Ukraine is conventionally attributed to the history of Ukraine. However, not all stubs about something that happened in the territory of modern day UA are categorized as Ukrainian history stubs for exactly this reason. For instance, some are East-Slavic-hist stubs, others are Jewish-history stubs. The articles currently in this stub cat are all appropriate for the Ukrainian history. Other objections? --Irpen 00:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
          • Then that (counter-)objection is merely one of terminology (and terminology that's very poorly indicated on the corresponding category, with not so much as a link -- not that there's a clearly defining article per se to link to -- the scope is what, everything pre-Imperial Russia? Includes or does not include Kievan Rus?), not that a single category with either of the scopes (one of which you didn't address at all) I indicated would be infeasible or undesirable per se. And some of the are quadruple-stubbed, and some of them occurred this year: any progress on those objections? Alai 02:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
            • Alai, while I am not a native speaker, I am fluent in English and I understand very well most everything that goes around WP. However, I often find it very difficult to understand you. This applies not just to the statement above but to things you say elsewhere too. So, please rephrase the question above more clearly for me, the poor sole, and please make it a habit to generally reread what you just wrote before hitting the submit button. --Irpen 16:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
              • I assume you mean soul rather than sole. Sorry, but it makes perfect sense to me, and I'm highly disinclined to rewrite the whole thing on no information beyond "everything you write makes no sense". In any event, the final question was largely rhetorical, and the "what the heck is the exact scope?" point seems clear enough, surely. Alai 18:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
                • Yes, that is what Irpen meant; if not a rewrite then please let's make an effort (myself including) to write more clearly in the future (e.g. avoid double negatives, when using pronouns refer clearly to a specific noun). Anyway, I think the scope for UA-hist stub can roughly be from 8-9th century until today, with occasional exceptions unavoidable. Quadruple-stubbing is not pretty, but that is yet another incentive to unstub the article. Are there many articles stubbed four ways?--Riurik 19:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
                  • So Kievan Rus' is Ukrainian (and Belarussian and Russian) history, and not "East Slavic" history? The categories (for each) should make that as clear as possible (though I'd still be inclined to upmerge the Belarus history stubs there (or elsewhere), as they're even more undersized. Come to that, the East Slavs page should make that much clearer, if this is standard/universal terminology. I can't tell you off-hand how many are quadruple-stubbed, but I noticed more than one on a very small sampling of the current contents. (The scope you suggest seems likely to produce triple-stubbing en masse for the 9th-12th C., certainly, which is why I'd favour a common category for that period (and earlier), whatever the standard terminology.) I've more than once threatened to compile a "rogue's gallery" of articles with 4, 5, 6, or even more stub tags from the whole database, perhaps I'll actually follow through one day... Alai 19:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per Irpen. Also, this stub category can be filled with countless stubs, within max. 1 day or 1 hour like Irpen said :))). —dima /sb.tk/ 00:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support the need for UA history stub category exists. In a day or two, the cat will be properly populated by editors.--Riurik 05:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Needed long ago.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  08:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm amazed anyone can say that with a straight face, given the ludicrousness of the attempts to get this up to size, e.g., tagging Ukraine at the 2006 Winter Paralympics -- what the heck, let's just rename {{Ukraine-stub}} to {{Ukraine-history-stub}} en masse, on the basis that everything that happened long enough to put on Wikipedia is "history". Alai 18:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
      • First, I have made a couple of these history stubs, and have tagged those that are apppropriate. The last time I counted, the number was about 60. Quote: Good number means about 60 articles or more. Second, look at Category:Polish history stubs. They also include articles like paralympics/olympics: Poland at the 1972 Summer Olympics. Ukraine is a large country with a big history. Does it not deserve a separate stub category for it??? If there is Category:American academic administrator stubs, why can't Ukraine have a History stub??? —dima /sb.tk/ 18:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Do you detect a difference between the "historical" nature of something that happened in 1972, and something that happened five months ago? The doubtless-equally-determined-to-pad-out-their-"own"-stub-type editors of the Polish articles might be somewhat pushing the envelope, but there's such a thing as "taking the piss". If there are real articles, in sufficient quantity, which are meaningfully taggable with this type -- without triple- and quadruple-, and outright mis-tagging -- then I'm all in favour of a separate type, but this whole "deserves a separate stub category" stuff, as if it were properly a matter of national pride, or of "the Poles have one, therefore we obviously must too", is deeply wrong-headed. Stub types are an editing tool, not fetish objects. Alai 18:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
        • After edit conflict (gee thanks: can you avoid making your comment a moving target, please?): Ther's an Category:American academic administrator stubs because that was needed to avoid persistently oversized parents. There's a Category:History of Ukraine stubs because... why? Other than that it's been created four times, absent any real need whatsoever? Alai 18:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
          • Alai, ifa particular stub in the cat is misplaced, just retag it. Most stubs in the cat are placed there correctly. Second, Alai might not be aware, but anyone with any familiarity of the topic may note that of the stub's proponents above there is not a single Ukrainian nationalist. Every single editor who voted above is known for rather moderate views and some have been attacked by certain Ukrainian wiki-nationalists with agendas on unrelated disputes. Editors familiar with the topic and with the current state of affairs in Ukraine's coverage at Wiki all see the need for the cat and they are driven by the desire to get a better wikipedia rather than by their personal Ukrainophilia. Finally, Alai, if you insist on me creating a dozen of "articles" using the pattern above (XXX was YYY that took place in ZZZ) as a mandatory condition for agreeing to accept the cat, please say so clear and loud. I avoided that because IMO there is more harm than good in empty articles, but there is even more harm in lumping the Eternal Peace Treaty of 1686 and modern Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine in one generic Ukraine-stub cat as I explained above. I also explained to you, why East-Slavic history solution is simply wrong. These are not one and the same and complement each other rather than can be used interchangeably. --Irpen 18:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
            • I'm not in the least interested in getting into a tag revert war, or frankly even in cleaning up after the mess other people have created in their quite evident zeal to "justify" this stub type. If you (collectively) are going to category-pad and pile on the "users voicefully defending it" in order to have such a type for the sake of having the type, then you (collectively) can clean it up, or live with the consequences. It suffices for me to note the laughability of the argument that this is a coherent category requiring specialist editors, in the face of this behaviour. I don't believe I suggested anyone had other than "moderate" views, and being attacked by alleged extremists is hardly in itself evidence of neutrality, or of correctness of one's position. The term "nationalist" means many different things to many different people -- and I didn't use it. I was responding to a (triple-question-marked, no less) claim that this topic "deserves" a stub type, and which is (if anything) an 'import topic' argument, and (another triple-question-marked) dismissive comparison to a topic the editor clearly left was "less important". This has nothing to do with the criteria for creating new stub types, which is everything to do with the management of stubs that actually exist. Hence, "Wikipedia Stub sorting", not "Wikipedia Scent-Marking of Important Topics". I defy anyone to provide an analysis in a systematic manner of the comment I was responding to, that's inconsistent with my own. If what you want to do is concentrate on better coverage of these topics, then what you want is a Wikiproject, not (just) a stub type. (Then explain to me afterward why WikiProject Ukrainian History overlaps with three other similar wikiprojects on most of "its" articles, and also covers current sporting events.) You've not in fact "explained" the harm in having a single one listing page Ukrainian stub category at all; you've not "explained" the wrongness of upmerging to the East Slavic stub type -- in both cases you've merely blandly and repeatedly asserted it, with allusions to how your familiarity with Ukrainian topics qualifies you to override stub creation guidelines, and others' alleged lack of knowledge disqualifies them from commenting. If you'd care to actually explain either at some point, I most be most grateful. You'll at least note that I've sought to do as much for the stub guidelines you're intent on ignoring. Alai 20:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
This is turning out to be a truly amusing discussion and one, in my opinion, that unnecessarily drains time on arguing about - what should be - simple matters. The Ukraine-hist-stub meets the criteria outlined in the new stub guidelines. Whereas a lack of knowledge on the topic does not disqualify anyone (this can usually be remedied using an internet search), the stub categories such as Ukraine-hist-stub attract "experts in specific areas", as stated on the WikiProject Stub sorting page (see section "Why Stub Sorting is Important"). Hence, one of the goals seems to be to attract experts (at the same time, anyone is welcome to edit. --Riurik 02:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 18:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. As I understand the problem with the stub-category is that it is borderline-underpopulated. It might be true, but the tag is very useful. Ukraine won her independence not that far ago and as a result many Ukrainian editors are understandably fiercely patriotic (and/or) nationalistic. They are interested in unstubbing Ukrainian history articles and not that interested in the history of the neighbors. For them the tag/cat is very useful. The other problem is that many events of Ukrainian history are connected with Russia and/or Poland. There exists tag Russia-hist-stub and Poland-hist-stub. Having an important Ukrainian event marked by any of these tags and not labeled by an Ukraine-hist-stub upsets the Ukrainian editors. Thus, introducing the tag can defuse possible editorial conflicts that is a very useful thing. I understand that stub category creep creates problems for the stub sorters but I expect that the tag would be mostly added by the participants of the P:UKR. abakharev 00:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you abakharev for some fine points with which I more or less concur. Might I add that because histories of PL, RU, and UA overlap, the Ukraine-hist-stub will provide another potential set of editors with area expertise/interest who will work to "unstub" an article even quicker. Additionally, a neutral/balanced point of view will be more actively sought by pl/ru/ua editors who will have to somehow reconcile individual histories of these respective countries.--Riurik 02:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
    • (ec)The problem is that at time of (all four!) of its creation(s) it was massively underpopulated, by a factor of two, and the tactics employed to achieve its current pop. look to me at least, to be extremely marginal in their utility (at best, frankly). Also notice that no-one is suggesting deleting {{Ukraine-stub}}, which heretofore would have tagged all the "historical" articles too, and were themselves <200 articles. So no-one would have to besmirch their eyes by looking at a Belarus- or a Poland-related stub -- well, other than the ones tagged with some or all of the above at once. The "utility" argument is thus, in effect, that looking down a single-page listing of "current" and "historical" Ukrainian topics is too much trouble for those only interested in the one, or the other (though "history" is seemingly as recent as this March). The rest of your diagnosis, as to the underlying psychology, appears to me to be exactly correct. Alai 02:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Wow, I just got analysed (you know psychologically). It's so easy, let me try: Ukrainian editors get so upset because...they don't have their own stub, like Poles and Russians. Oh, and they're so nationalistic because they got their independence so recently; (by implication other nations/states who have been "independent" are not nationalistic?). The cogency of this argument is stunning! Are you serious? Is this what you think of people who work on Ukraine related articles or through portal:Ukriane, because I hope that you are aware that not everyone is Ukrainian who edits on Ukraine portal or that people do not get "upset" because of a stub. What does tend to piss people off is generalizing and lumping individual editors under one category (e.g. patriotic, sensitive to national stub issues). Did you know that m:don't be a dick is a corrollary of WP:IAR? Does this psychological analysis stuff fall under "bad faith" category? That's some food for thought. For myself, I want the stub because I do not frequent either Russian or Polish portals and thus would have no one place to find Ukraine related areas needing expansion. How about another diagnosis, doctor?--Riurik 03:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Why certainly, I shall: you're apparently happy to agree with Alex Bakharev, and yet are massively offended when I agree with him? One might speculate that the difference might relate to his "support" of this proposal, and my "calling people on their slipshod stub-tagging efforts", but obviously it would be wrong to assume such a thing. And don't you know what don't be a dick says about telling people "don't be a dick"? See also WP:CIVIL. (Personally I'd happily delete both IAR and DICK as "much more prevalently abused than ever employed usefully", but of course, ironically, I'd have WP:IAR to do so (and probably get blocked for a year, oh well...). "No one place to find Ukraine related areas needing expansion"... aside from Category:Ukraine stubs, you mean? (Had there not been such a stub type, I'd have argued for one had there been a couple of dozen such articles, and a template had there been any articles at all, for the record. But creating sub-types is a much more marginal proposition. What's the wagering as to how marginal (or totally unviable) {{Ukraine-politics-stub}} will be when it gets created as a "useful" and "deserved" stub type?) Alai 03:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
          • Correction: I concurred "more or less" with Alex Bakharev, not "happy to agree" as you put it. As to the difference in reaction, it was your choice of words that was responsible for the sarcasm on my part. Regarding the meta:don't be a dick policy: that is why I asked if you were aware of the policy's correlation with IAR, since telling you not to be a dick would have been a dick move, although in asking the question one can speculate that I implied so. Look, we obviously disagree about the stub's necessity, and it does not seem that either one of us will change our views whatever the reasoning offered.--Riurik 04:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
            • Well, I can agree with all that (more or less, at least). To return briefly to an earlier point: note that I did not indulge in generalisations about portal-frequenters, "nationalists", or anyone else that I'm aware of: I raise the criticism of the "important topic" argument in relation to those employing it, and of doubtfully-sorted stubs of those doing the tagging, and I don't for a moment mean to suggest that anyone not engaging in either (or of whichever it is they happened not to be involved in) is guilty of those things (or of anything else) by association, much less by nationality. Alai 04:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support —Michael Z. 2006-08-16 03:29 Z
  • Oppose: On the face of it, Category:History of Ukraine stubs looks to be reasonably populated (currently 81 stubs) but examining a random selection of articles I'm very dubious about the contents. It seems to have been padded with non-historical articles. For example, the first article I looked at was Alexander Nevsky Cathedral, Yalta which consisted of "The Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in the seaside resort of Yalta in Ukraine was built in 1902.". That's a {{church-stub}} to me (so I am changing it to that). There is no indication that it has anything to do with Ukrainian history (unless you count the fact that it was built over a century ago - tenuous link at best). The others I looked at had similar problems, so I have doubts about the contents of the entire category. Category:Ukraine stubs is not excessively large so I see no (current) need for this split. --TheParanoidOne 05:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Going through the stub category, I have found at least 65 articles worthy of having the {{Ukraine-hist-stub}}. Why do we have to combine history stubs and some very unrelated articles like football club stubs? Within the last week, I saw a couple of stub categories, never proposed, each having ~ 15 articles. Those stub categories are probably not important. But why turn down this stub cat, when it is worthy. Ouote: A good number may mean 60 articles or more... Anyway, if you don't agree about the stub category creation, we can always create numerous history of Ukraine stubs... —dima /sb.tk/ 15:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Proposal and subsequent discussion feel like an end-run around policy, and {{Ukraine-stub}} is extant and not overpopulated. I am willing to revisit the subject when tempers have cooled, but this is just a circus. --CComMack (t&#149;c) 09:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{US-art-museum-stub}} / Category:United States art museum stubs

No decision (below) has been made on whether to split museum-stub by type or by country/region. However, this proposal covers both. Stubsense reports 80 {{museum-stub}}s in Category:Art museums and galleries in the United States. From below, there are over 250 museum-stubs in Category:Museums in the United States. --Usgnus 18:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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More {{US-rock-band-stub}} / Category:United States rock musical group stubs splits

{{US-rock-band-stub}} is currently sitting at 6 pages and this is an initial split (with StubSense counts). The corresponding main categories will be Category:Indie rock groups and Category:Alternative musical groups (which is actually alternative rock groups). --Bruce1ee 11:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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New European football club types

Somebody mentioned the need for Spain to be split back in the French club discussion, but Lithuania wasn't mentioned (and why should it have been - who'd have thought?). In any case, here's both submitted for approval. --fuzzy510 08:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

'twas I. I was going by the very Spanish looking names, but my knowledge of Eastern European languages and geography isn't good enough to instantly tell Lithuanian, Latvian, Polish and Belarusian clubs apart. I knew there were a lot in that area somewhere, but didn't investigate :). Support both. Grutness...wha? 23:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Go Lithuania! Support both. Valentinian (talk) 22:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
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Novel stubs, by decade

Splitting by genre seems to have petered out several listings pages short of the upper size threshold. These look likely to help a fair bit. Alai 06:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support. Alai, don't you ever sleep??! ♥ Her Pegship♥ 21:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Confused SupportDo you really mean to mix in the sci-fi with the mysteries with the romances? I think that would be a pretty big practical obstacle to the people trying to expand/cleanup the stubs. I really think if this is done (which obviously I support as I suggest it above not having noticed this nomination), it needs to explicityly leave the genres out. I don't care what non-elitist term you want to use, but I think it would just be confusing to not use anything. Dybryd 08:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
    • No, I mean to tag them with the types that already exist for those, as is already is the case for SF (which I think is the term you're looking for) and romance (and re-split those by decade too, if size demands/permits), and split whatever remains by decade, be it of no genre, the marketed as "literary" genre, a niche genre with no stub stub type, several different genres at once, or whatever else. (They could in theory be double-stubbed with both genre and decade, but I'm not het up about that either way.) I don't want the "non-genre" genre by another name: I don't want it at all. The lack of any corresponding perm-cat whatsoever should make the problematic nature of any such scoping clear. (And the one thing that stub-sorting should most definitely not be is more problematic than perm-catting, where fine-grained distinctions that it takes an expert to determine are at least permissible in principle.) And talking of sleep... Alai 09:06, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
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Football club split

The only one that I might be against myself is Oceania stubs, which is around 95% New Zealand, so it's probably more sensical to split for New Zealand instead of Oceania as a whole. Just to make it clear - North America doesn't include US clubs (which I would like to become a child of the North American clubs if this is created) and Asia DOES include Australia, since the precedent is to include the countries of each continentconfederation's governing body, and Australia is officially a part of Asia. --fuzzy510 05:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Uhm ... Isn't Australia its own continent? --Amazzing5 06:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Not according to FIFA. Support all of these, and suggest using the word confederation rather than continent in future :) Grutness...wha? 06:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean? It was always like that!  ;-) --fuzzy510 08:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Created. --fuzzy510 05:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
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1990s album split

Per a recent, similar, albeit somewhat more extensive, by-genre split on the 2000s. Alai 05:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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Metal album splits

Parent is six listings page, which I suppose makes it "middleweight-oversized" in the scheme of things. Alai 05:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{national-footy-team-stub}} / Category:National football (soccer) team stubs

This one may or may not actually have 60 - I'm really not certain, I don't have the full list in front of me, and it'd be hard to make. What I can tell you is that it'd be a sizable number, and that this one (in my opinion) should be made out of necessity. Nobody seems to be able to know exactly where they should be sorted (some stay in Category:Football (soccer) stubs, whereas others end up in various football club categories), and this ends the confusion. --fuzzy510 03:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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United States radio stations split

An eight-pager. Shall we split these by state? If so, the following are viable immediately:

Then, we can do the usual four-way regional split of the rest. Alai 03:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Single stubs

These are now seven pages, admittedly not helped by me dumping a load of song-stubs in there. Per-decade seems to be the only immediately viable way to go in terms of existing perm cats (well, nearly existing, they're catted by year). Alai 01:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was create as revised..

Swiss location split

The Swiss geos are at nine pages, and the following look like likely splits:

Categorisation seems to be high, so I doubt any of those in the low 40s are crypto-viable in the short term. Alai 01:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Um...do you mean:
???
(Support BTW, with the proviso that we use {{Neuchatel-geo-stub}} with no diacritics). Grutness...wha? 06:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Pesky permanent cats leading me astray... Yes, I do. (I think we can manage a redirect, one way or the other.) Alai 06:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
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Actor splits

The actors and the UK actors are each ten pages. From just the former:

In addition, I suggest Category:Screen actor stubs and Category:United Kingdom screen actor stubs to catch the doubtless large TV+film overlap. Alai 00:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{footy-league-stub}} / Category:Football (soccer) league stubs

A majority of the stubs in Category:Football (soccer) stubs are in reference to various different leagues, so I think this is a fork worth adding. --fuzzy510 20:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{classical-guitarist-stub}} / Category:Classical guitarist stubs

There are 750 guitarist stubs. Quite a few of them are classical guitarists. Some classical guitarist stubs are listed under other categories like Dionisio Aguado as a composer stub. --Amazzing5 04:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

  • How many is "quite a few"? If there's 60, this seems sensibly scoped. (You may also wish to check in the various <country>-guitarist-stub types too, though please double-stub with those rather than replacing them.) Alai 06:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

So far I've found 87, make that 93 (or 98 if I can include classical guitar ensembles under the same category). --Amazzing5 19:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

    • Probably best not to include those, if it's intended to be a sub-type of the bios. (And if it's not, we'll end up having to double-stub them to be strictly accurate.) Alai 21:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Except there are only five of them, which isn't exactly 60. Do you have any ideas about other pages? What about articles dealing with other aspects of classical guitar besides biographies? Most of these don't have anything more specific than a music stub. There have been people lately making lots of strange articles like History of the classical guitar by country or Region that should be catagorized somehow if they are going to be fixed up. --Amazzing5 05:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Angolan people stubs

By my count, there are about 58 of these under Angola-stub. It is just another African country in need of a bio stub and eventually a politician stub.--Thomas.macmillan 03:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Russian sportspeople stubs

The Russians are coming! Or are slightly oversized again, at least. The above looks highly viable (don't have any exact count at present). Alai 00:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Florida protected area stubs

There's 58 articles double-tagged into both Category:Florida geography stubs and Category:Protected area stubs, up with a distinct bullet from last time. Technically we should find another two from somewhere... Alai 00:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{hiphop-bio-stub}} / Category:Hip hop biography stubs

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two Three more geos hit target (film at eleven)

Both Jamaica and Benin have been bullied and cajoled to the target 65 stubs for their own geo-stubs. In the case of {{Jamaica-geo-stub}}, it should be easy, since it's a well populated redirect to {{Caribbean-geo-stub}}. In the case of {{Benin-geo-stub}} it's another one to build from scratch. (If you're wondering about the "bullied and cajoled" bit, I dug out a Caribbean map made the last half-dozen Jamaican stubs myself :) Grutness...wha? 10:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Athletics-bio-stub}} split

About 1375 stubs. Mostly well distributed across countries. However, stubsense reports

--Usgnus 12:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{India-business-bio-stub}}

I ran into many, many of these while sorting India-bio-stub. More than 60, at least. Both parents are oversized. Crystallina 14:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{RCongo-stub}}/Category:Republic of the Congo stubs

Briaboru

sorry that was my fault!!!!!! Briaboru

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{{India-sport-bio-stub}}

At least 60 of these in the unproposed {{India-sports-stub}} alone and I'd like to reduce the size of that before sending it to SFD. Caerwine Caerwhine 22:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Eritrea-stub}}/Category:Eritrea stubs

Briaboru Again, my thinking was that even if there aren't that many stubs now new articles could be created using this stub.

No vote. Last time I checked, I couldn't even find 20 stub articles relating to Eritrea. Has anybody done a recent count? Valentinian (talk) 07:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
At long last, I've done a count. A conservative estimate is 70 stubs, so Support. (If I don't hear any protests, I think I'll create this one tomorrow). Valentinian (talk) 23:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{zoo-stub}} / Category:Zoo stubs

Regardless of the outcome of the {{museum-stub}} split (see below August and July), I think we need a zoo-stub. This includes aquariums and aviaries. I remember the first time I had to stub a zoo article, it took me a while to figure out to use museum-stub. A manual count of stubsense results within Category:Zoos and its children gives over 100 stub articles. --Usgnus 23:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Asia-ethno-group-stub}}

I proudly propose creating this one. My rough estimation is that more than 200 articles will be there. Similar {{Africa-ethno-group-stub}} was created a long time ago. Users from Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups support this. - Darwinek 09:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Strong support I have been going through the ethno-group-stub's the past few days and have found they are in general poorly organized. This would certainly help. What about creating ethno-stubs for every continent? North America and Africa have already been done.--Thomas.macmillan 15:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan to me. Alai 18:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
By all means. Valentinian (talk) 23:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Created and populated. Huge stub. - Darwinek 22:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Given that a) discussion of the name appeared to be a live issue, and b) that there's a one week discussion period, then waiting for the end of the one week discussion period might have been preferable. Alai 23:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Pharology-stub}}

I am preparing to launch a WikiProject to create articles for all of the major lighthouses of the world, but there is no suitable stub category. I propose the creation of a Pharology stub. Here is an example of stubs and needed articles for the category for the United States alone (a worldwide list would be much longer):

(list moved, Alai)

--Draugen 21:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

  • What about plain old {{lighthouse-stub}}? If this goes ahead, can you be sure to double-stub them all with the appropriate <location>-struct-stub (or else, split these up by location where possible, and tag with that). Alai 18:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd agree with Alai. BTW, that listing method you use doesn't work with either of the browsers I use (IE and Safari) - I'd suggest that since a lot of WP users are likely to use one or the other of those you don't use it. Grutness...wha? 23:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support {{lighthouse-stub}}, as "pharology", while correct, is not soemthing that springs to most editors' minds when stubbing. ♥ Her Pegship♥ 15:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Support {{lighthouse-stub}}, as well as this entire project. Although I have a question...what about for articles about keepers, architects and the like? Might a pharology stub serve to keep them separate from lighthouses? Just thinking out loud, really...--AlbertHerring 18:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Are there enough for a separate type for such, distinct from the lighthouses per se, that are notable primarily in relation to their pharologicalosity? I'd think a single type is sufficient for lighthouse-related topics in general, to be split geographically in the first instance (starting with {{US-lighthouse-stub}}, clearly), would be preferable. Alai 19:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Without doing any digging, I can think offhand of at least ten people/terms that are related to lighthouses and which might be served by such a stub. I can try to provide a list of the requisite sixty if requested. Sorry to be so wishy-washy, but I'm in the process of dealing with about five irons in the fire at once, and this is but one. --AlbertHerring 19:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support {{lighthouse-stub}} at the very least. I'm not sure about the -bio-stub, but we'll see how many articles Albert can find. I wouldn't be too opposed to the {{pharology-stub}} either. It's not something you'd think of right away when stub-sorting, but then again, neither is {{philately-stub}} ~ Amalas rawr =^_^= 19:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
        • OK, with a little thinking, I was able to come up with thirty articles about lighthouse-related people and terms:

Additionally, I can come up with the names of three or four more lighthouse builders whose main claim to notability appears to be that they built lighthouses. And there are two or three fairly important authors as well, as well as one or two lighthouse preservation societies of some note. All but two of these subects are related to the United States, and I'm sure there are more articles about non-US subjects which could be written. Is that enough for a separate {{pharology-stub}}?

Also, a couple of these could probably use alternative article titles - this is just what I thought of off the top of my head. --AlbertHerring 20:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

      • That should work. And I promise, I'll get rid of a bunch of those redlinks fairly soon - even if it's only with just the barest of stubs.

Also...what about location stubs? {{US-lighthouse-stub}}, {{Canada-lighthouse-stub}}, and {{UK-lighthouse-stub}} would probably be enough for now.--AlbertHerring 21:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I am okay with {{lighthouse-stub}}. Whatever we lose in precision we gain in clarity. Support. --Draugen 21:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

        • I'm opposed to the creation of an additional stub type on the basis of 30 mostly-redlinks, on the strength of the wikiproject or otherwise, given that the wikiproject scope presumably includes the actual lighthouses too, so they're already, or rather, will soon be, served by a "lighthouse-related" stub type. And "pharology" still hardly seems the most useful name: there's no Category:Pharology, the article pharology is a nano-stub, and let's bear in mind Use common names. If wikiproject rutrology starts up tomorrow, we should still favour {{shovel-stub}} for people notable in connection of manually digging holes. On locations, I'll support any of the above (or otherwise) that hit 60 (actual articles). Alai 22:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
          • Alai, it sounds like you're opposed to any additional stubs, correct? Can we assume you're supportive of {{lighthouse-stub}}? Because that's what this proposal has morphed into.
            • I'm fully, unequivocally, super-duper, supportive, of {{lighthouse-stub}}, and any viable geographical splits, as I've already said. My opposition was to Albert's re-suggestion of a separate pharology stub, with an undersized (and largely non-existent) population, and a sub-optimal name, and the nature of my comments, and indeed the identation thereof, was intended to make clear (before you changed it). Alai 02:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was create templates, upmerge cat.

Lighthouse stubs

I'd like to renominate {{pharology-stub}} as a separate category, as I have counted 71 stubs under Category:Lighthouse stubs that deal with either people or terminology, and not with specific lighthouses. I know pharology isn't the best word, but I can't think of another one that's inclusive enough to cover both biographies and terminology, and there's not enough of either for separate stubs. In addition, there are already 147 stubs on United States lighthouses, and we have a lot left to cover. I think it's about time for a {{US-lighthouse-stub}}. As of yet, that's all that are needed right now, I'd say. --AlbertHerring 21:30, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was create.

{{Paraguay-writer-stub}}

Hi, I was categorising the article Renée Ferrer de Arréllaga and discovered I should be proposing the category here. There's also a question as to whether it should be {{tl|Paraguayan writers}} along the model of Argentina. Advice appreciated. Dlyons493 Talk 18:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Thanks for both your replies. What I'm planning is to translate a fairly small number of articles from es.wiki about S. American writers (various countries) and I'd like to see them categorised properly. So I thought of following the model for Brazil and Argentina but then noticed that I should be discussing it here rather than just creating it. I'm happy to go along with whatever is suggested, but I'm not clear what you mean by double-cat. I do think it's important to get the country name in somewhere rather than just displaying them as generic S. America. Also should the model be Paraguay writers or Paraguayan writers? Dlyons493 Talk 13:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, didn't mean to be so opaque. What I mean is, a category that has a single banner ("This article about a Paraguayan writer is a stub..."), but includes two existing categories, rather than one new one. See for example {{Spain-poet-stub}}. (Then once 60 have been created or found, make than a separate category.) Alai 18:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Since the template is alread there, I revised the categories per above. --Usgnus 21:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Usgnus, an excellent application of "show, don't tell". Exactly what I was trying to convey... Alai 00:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was create.

{{Atheism-stub}}

Oops, I already made it. I craeted a stub template for my Wikiproject. There are a lot stubs about atheism, so I created it, and will be using it. Thank you. here it is: {{atheismstub}} Hezzy 04:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops is right. And it should be {{atheism-stub}}, once it's sanctioned... ♥ Her Pegship♥ 17:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I've moved it, and amended the section heading; if the creator doesn't object we can kill the redirect without an SFD. How many is "a lot"? (I do hope this isn't including bio-stubs on the basis of their being atheists...) Alai 22:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{waste-stub}} / Category:Waste stubs

Stubs related to waste, waste management and related subcategories. This is quite a specialist area as a subcategory of WikiProject Environment.

  • Thanks User: Amalas --Alex 07:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure I'm really seeing the necessity for this. Only 9 of these are even in the environment-stub type, so it's far from obvious this is a specialism of WikiProject Environment in any strong sense. More of them are from {{sustainability-stub}}, which itself only has 85 articles. Is the proposed stub actually more applicable on any of these articles -- much less or all or most of them? Alai 15:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Waste management does not just contain references to environment and sustainability. It covers issues such as engineering, tax and legislation, all issues which are more relevant to the wider issue of waste management than to vague stubs such as "tax". I believe there is a strong case for a subset related to this area. --Alex 09:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)(some background to my work on Wikipedia in this area) I note you come from Ireland which has extra needs related to waste. Ireland has much higher landfill costs that other countries and there are problems with illegal waste practices. Ireland's waste infrastructure will need to be developed in the next few years along with the UK's making the waste category an important section for people who are investigating this. Both countries are well behind the rest of Europe and the US is in a similar position. I have met with the Deputy Mayor or Connacht and we are due to meet with the political groups for the Irish Government in the near future on these very matters. If I can help formulate a strong area on Wikipedia on the waste sector it will help people in their understanding of the many differnt issues involved.

Sounds good, looks good.I just hope there are more stubs where that came from. If it serves a purpose, any purpose God Bless!!!

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The result of the debate was create.

Category:Actor-model stubs; Category:United States actor-model stubs

I realize we don't want to end up with, to echo the words of the song, "singer-dancer-actress-model-stub", but there's a tremendous amount of double-stubbings to this general effect. The USs are the largest remainder such double-stubbing (at least counting oversized categories only), in fact: 143 of 'em. Alternative suggestions welcome. Alai 03:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was create.

{{Winter-Olympic-medalist-stub}} / Category:Winter Olympic medalist stubs

Ther's 113 of these in both Category:Olympic medalist stubs and in Category:Winter sports biography stubs, one-or-other of which is oversized. I could have sworn this had been suggested before, but apparently I'm just losing it... Alai 23:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was create.

{{Pakistan-ethno-stub}}

Parent group is huge and stub sense over 100 possible stubs. Seems like a good start to sorting the large category. While on the topic, are there any thoughts on the name? The current categories, on India, North American natives and Africa are all worded differently (india-ethno-stub}, (NorthAm-native-stub), and (Africa-ethno-group-stub, respectively)--Thomas.macmillan 03:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Australia-scientist-stub}} and {{Australia-business-bio-stub}}

Australia biography stubs are at 6-7 pages currently. These two seem like the next splits ready to go. Preliminary searches support this (although scientist is difficult because there are so many subdivisions of science). Crystallina 02:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{artillery-stub}}

This stub is needed for all stubs related to artillery. most stubs are currently classified as firearms stubs or other stubs. Kaushal mehta 10:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I've hyphenated the template name, per the naming guidelines. What's the likely population? (The guns have a history of severely undersized splits, to be candid.) Alai 15:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Classifying artillery just as a firearm is a gross misrepresentation, according to my personal view point. The fact that a lot of guns have remained undersized in their article lengths might be because of the lack of a stub category to categorize them. I am trying to create a list of articles which can be put into this category.Kaushal mehta 15:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • As it turns out, stubsense results on this look very promising, so tentative support, despite the earlier false starts in this area. Alai 15:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{NorthernIreland-railstation-stub}}

This has already been created (not by me), along with Category:Northern Ireland railway station stubs. This is the last region of the UK not already split from {{UK-railstation-stub}}. While that stub type is only used in a handful of Northern Ireland station articles, having looked in Category:Railway stations in Northern Ireland and its subcats, most of those (around 40-50 articles) should have a stub (but don't), so this stub type should be retained. If no-one objects, I'll start adding this stub template to these articles. --RFBailey 09:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Germany-med-bio-stub}}

Another split of med-bio stub and also Germany-bio-stub; I've found roughly 60 and haven't been looking all that thoroughly. Crystallina 16:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Italy-geo-stub}} split

Category:Italy geography stubs has almost exactly 1800 stubs, but most Italian municipalities have no article at the moment. I have proposed to add all of them with a bot, and will do so in about a week time. There will be close to 10,000 Italy geo-stubs then. Perhaps it would be time to split them? I suggest at least the following stubs:

As you can see, some of these have already been created; not all of them through the proper procedure, I think.

Some of these can be split further; for example, Lombardy has over 1500 municipalities, so I may want to create stubs like {{BergamoProvince-geo-stub}}. Eugène van der Pijll 14:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

  • 10,000, you say? *oof!* Strongly support all of them above, at a minimum as upmerged templates for the time being. (BTW, I can't swear to Sicily-geo-stub, but the others were proposed and created by me, according to what'd get past threshold at the time.) Your point about some provincal-level types seems valid too. If all of the regions become viable (as seems likely), I've no objection to getting rid of the groups-of-regions layer I also introduced, if they're more of a nuisance than a help to navigation. Alai 14:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I could only find discussions about Lombardy and Sicily here, but I did not look very hard, as the categories seemed valid enough, based on stub counts. Eugène van der Pijll 15:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's the discussion. In fact, said proposal implies approval of all of the above templates, plus categories as needed: so, what are you waiting for? :) Alai 15:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW, {{Marche-geo-stub}} also already exists, in line with the article Marche. Alai 15:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm waiting for the approval of my bot :-). For "Marches", I went by the English name given on Regions of Italy. I've changed it. Eugène van der Pijll 15:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Possibly Marches would be more correct, just so long as we don't end up with two separate templates... Alai 15:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
If we decide to go with marches it should probably be MarchesIT-geo-stub, since the term is also used in other countries. Grutness...wha? 01:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've started to create these, starting with those that are at least within shouting distance of viability on the existing population (and existing categorisation). I've 'botted the parent down to around 1200, but significant manual re-sorting will be required to make this non-oversized. Alai 14:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Note that I will probably replace a large number of these completely (those which are no more than a sub-stub, e.g. Castelcivita), so you may want to wait with manual re-sorting until after my bot run. Eugène van der Pijll 15:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah, good point. Hey, you should have said earlier, and maybe saved my bot some work. :) Alai 15:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
It would have saved me a lot of work too... I just manually sorted everything from A to C. I think I will wait now. (of course, that's what I get for not checking for replies to this section) ~ Amalas rawr =^_^= 19:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
If it's any comfort, I'd imagine it's only redundant on very short "substubs" which would be the candidates to be automatically replaced, and I notice that a lot of the articles are medium-length, or even borderline for being too-long-to-be-stubs. My bot's just about out of things to do on this, though: there's less than 100 stubs total in the remaining five templates I haven't bothered creating yet (as less than 20 in each seems too small even for a "surely growing" creation, and creating them upmerged at this point seems likely to shortly be overtaken by events. Alai 19:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
... or perhaps not. It seems that a lot of these articles have been created very recently, hence the low cat-counts from the last db dump (now well over two weeks old), and the large size of the category. So many of these may have perm-cats that just haven't "shown up" yet, but should do whenever the netx db dump actually gets off the ground. Alai 20:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I've only just stumbled across this discussion. I'd best let you know what I've done in the last day or two. I created categories to go with {{Basilicata-geo-stub}} (Category:Basilicata geography stubs) and {{Puglia-geo-stub}} (Category:Puglia geography stubs - should probably be Category:Apulia geography stubs, but the main category is at Category:Puglia). I've also created the above-mooted {{Aosta-geo-stub}}, and it too has its own category: Category:Aosta Valley geography stubs. From what I've seen during my sortings, each of the other four (Liguria, Venezia-Friuli-Giulia, Trentino-Südtirol and Sardinia) will happily fill a category of its own. This leaves us with {{Centre-Italy-geo-stub}} and {{South-Italy-geo-stub}} being more or less useless (one article between them). They could probably be deleted already. --Stemonitis 15:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Molise, Marche and Umbria are all undersized for separate categories at present, so the regional categories don't appear to me to be deletable quite yet. Actually, one of them is itself undersized, due to the above creations... I assume this will all change soon enough, though. Alai 00:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
{{Molise-geo-stub}} is the only thing feeding into Category:Southern Italy geography stubs, so the category must just as well be renamed or abandoned altogether (and revert Abruzzi e Molise to {{Italy-geo-stub}}). But all I meant was that the templates {{South-Italy-geo-stub}} and {{Centre-Italy-geo-stub}} were redundant now, not the categories. --Stemonitis 07:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
... or else, revert the change that caused it to be undersized... But yes, I completely agree about the template: I'd misunderstood completely on that point. Alai 16:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, comments on {{Turin-geo-stub}} or {{ProvinceOfTurin-geo-stub}} or {{TurinProvince-geo-stub}} are still welcome. I would like to create these for the provinces of Lombardy (1562 municipalities) and Piedmont (1206 municipalities). Eugène van der Pijll 07:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I've created {{Turin-geo-stub}}, in analogy with e.g. {{Lodz-geo-stub}}. The category can wait until after I've written 300 articles to put in it. Eugène van der Pijll 22:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{martialart-film-stub}} / Category:Martial arts film stubs

Found 82 among the action films (see discussion below). ♥ Her Pegship♥ 23:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Brazil-band-stub}} / Category:Brazilian musical group stubs

... another nationality split of {{band-stub}}. Currently I have 66 Brazilian band stubs, which is more than what StubSense gives, but that is because some of these stubs have no main (non-stub) categories. --Bruce1ee 14:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Sarawak-geo-stub}}

Category:Malaysia geography stubs still has almost 400 geo-stubs, and there are still more articles to be created in Malayasian geography. I propose a stub Category:Sarawak geography stubs to help organize these geo-stubs. Sarawak is a natural candidate since it makes up 37.5% of the land of Malaysia. Also as Sarawak is on Borneo and was historically separate from Malaya, it may attract editors which the larger category does not. Bejnar 22:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Hiphop-band-stub}} / Category:Hip hop group stubs

There is already stub for US specific hip hop groups and collectives and StubSense says there is 250 stubs starting from Category:Hip hop groups. I know StubSense is a little behind with enwiki, but I think the number is increasing. Also this stub template would cover all groups and collective from any country other than USA and could also be better parent stub for US groups and collectives.

Monni 20:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support Alai's modified proposal. --Usgnus 04:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Also checked that the potential child stub is called {{US-hiphop-band-stub}} and not {{US-hiphop-group-stub}}. Monni 04:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Good point. Now, if anyone has any theories as to why we're using "band" in templates, and "groups" in category names, please do write in and say... Alai 15:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
      • For example, dance group and dance band are two totally different things... "band" is also shorter than "musical group". Monni 19:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Sure, but one feeding into the other implies equivalence (or at least, implication, to be precise), and simultaneously some sort of distinction, which is most odd. But maybe we should just add redirects all around to finesse. Alai 19:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
          • I think it is more about trying to be consistent with all genres and different kind of non-musical groups, musical groups, collectives etc. Although group and band might be ambigous with one genre, it doesn't have to be with all genres. Also... The sole purpose of this nomination was to refine disambiguating of existing stub types and categories. So it doesn't imply that there can't be other hip hop groups than musical ones. As long as there isn't enough articles and/or stubs about non-musical hip hop groups, there is no real reason for further disambiguating. Monni 19:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
      • The origin of the band/group discrepancy I think could be because the stub categories use "groups" to tie in with the corresponding main categories, and the templates use "bands" to conform to WP:NC#Album titles and band names. --Bruce1ee 06:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{US-soccer-bio-stub}} / Category:United States soccer biography stubs

I count 75 of 'em in Category:North American football (soccer) biography stubs, and while the parent isn't overflowing, I don't see any reason not to create it. --fuzzy510 06:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was do not create.

Dean-geo-stub

The Forest of Dean is a distinct Cultural, Geographical, Social, Linguistic, Political and Historical entity within the couty of Gloucestershire in the UK. I think it needs its own stub in order to keep track of the various incomplete pages in this area. Also, I think the existence of a stub-type would help users with an interest in this area to work in a more focussed way on a distinct body of work within the ~pedia.

Examples are: Freeminer Gaveller Minsterworth Bream, Gloucestershire Newent A48 road Dean Forest Railway Forest of Dean Sculpture Trail

Plus a whole load of things I haven't created yet, including Forest of Dean Dialect, Freemine, Freeminer's Brass,Newland Church/Cathedral of the Forest, Cyril Hart and a whole load of places, monuments, enclosures, museums and so-on not mentioned on the Forest of Dean page, or mentioned but with no pages.

Any objections or suggestions? --Dan 18:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Lesotho-stub}}/Category:Lesotho stubs

One of an african country without stubs. might be last one in need of one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Briaboru (talk • contribs)

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{{YA-novel-stub}} / Category:Young adult novel stubs

Not just a marketing ploy, but a genre heavily used in libraries, criticism, reading groups, etc. "YA" is the usual abbreviation so I hope we don't have to come up with something longer...This would siphon off some of the overflow in Category:Children's books and in Category:Novels. (See discussion below.) ♥ Her Pegship♥ 22:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

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Football bio splits

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My assault on all things football stubs continues with these proposals:

Europe

Asia

South America

Oceania

I realize that the last two European types don't quite hit 60, but that's only from looking in the European football stubs category, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more hiding out somewhere else. Besides, the category is getting pretty large (nearly 800 articles, spilling on to 5 pages thanks to the many subcats), so I would think that it'd be reasonable to bend the rules here a little bit. I also won't be offended if someone wants to rescope the Korean stubs - it would stand on its own as just South Korea, but it seems that the convention is to lump them all together. --fuzzy510 02:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Support all Valentinian (talk) 15:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Since this was mysteriously deleted, I'm reposting this for archival, and creating all. --fuzzy510 23:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
My fault - and I'm no idea what happened (an editing glitch of some sort). What I was trying to add was my comment, which was "Support all. Very surprised that NZ has reached target; someone must've been busy..." Grutness...wha? 00:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Myanmar-stub}}/Category:Myanmar stubs

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The result of the debate was create.

I counted the countries, so I know this as definite, Myannmar is the only Soth East Asian nation with out stubs. all members of ASEAN who comprise all the nations of SE asia have one except Myannmar. Briaboru

And even Eritrea and Lesotho have broken threshold. Support the template and create the category as soon as it breaks 60. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 22:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{lasertag-stub}}

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The result of the debate was do not create.

???? trying to create a lasertag catagory, dunno if this is even close to the right place to do so, this is because i'm trying to expand the lasertag section here. k ~whatever~ whatever 19:27, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

  • If you're just looking for a category for lasertag, there already is one... with a gap in the name, at Category:Laser tag. If you mean you want a template and category for stubs relating to lasertag, then this is the place. But I seriously doubt you're going to get anywhere near the 60 articles needed for a stub type to be viable. A wider-scoped stub type relating to all live-action roleplaying-type games might be viable and might cover laser tag, but it would need to be carefully worded to show what was and wasn't covered by it. Grutness...wha? 01:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

you'd be amazed about how much i know about lasertag... but {{sports:stub}} seems to cover it for the momment thanks. ~whatever~ whatever 03:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{NewYork-road-sectstub}} and Category:New York road articles with sections needing expansion

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The result of the debate was do not create.

Because of the actions of some members of the "Stubsensor" project, who have removed stub tags from NY route pages which are clearly stubs, I've (speaking on behalf of WP:NYSR) been forced to resort to using {{Sectstub}}. While the usage of this template is fine, it makes finding New York route articles with sections needing expansion difficult because of the massive size of the Category:Articles with sections needing expansion category. Though only a handful of NYSR articles use Sectstub as we speak, most of the 150 articles in Category:New York State Highway stubs could use the proposed template if approved. --TMF T - C 07:34, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

  • One problem with the jargon used on WP is that sometimes the same word is used for different things. If an article is fairly large but has a section that needs expanding, then it isn't a stub. And "sectstub" isn't really anything to do with stubs - it's a call to expand one sectin of an article that is beyond stub size ("sectexpand" would be a far better name for it). That's one of the reasons why this WikiProject doesn't usually have anything to do with sectstubs... they're not really stubs at all. Which is another way of saying that (I may be mistaken, but...) I don't think anyone here would object to a specific sectstub template relating to your wikiproject. As to the stubsensor project, the problem with automatically deciding on stubs based solely by length is the reason why stubsensor alone is a ridiculous idea and has been argued against on WP:WSS several times - it completely ignores things like tables. An article with one line of text and 20k or tables is still a stub, even if it registers as being 20.2k in size (I'm referring here to your recent - and IMHO correct - reversion of a stubsensor template removal from New York State Route 28, for example). Grutness...wha? 08:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I completely agree with Grutness. Sectstub would ideally be renamed, as had often been mooted -- I'd do somthing about it (no, really), there just doesn't seem to be a centralised place for nomming same, and I don't really want to go screwing around unilaterally with a template in such heavy use. Splitting "sect-expands" by topic I'm skeptical about, but just so long as they're not called <somesomething>stub, they're not really our business here. The Bluebot and the Stubsensor people are doubtless doing a lot of useful work, as stub-tags often "linger" on articles longer than they're needed, but if they're working by length, this sort of false-positive is going to happen, and people shouldn't hestitate to revert (and complain more loudly if it happens again on the same article) if a more careful consideration indicates otherwise. Alai 16:10, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been having problems like this at CA and Wa and Interstate and just about every highway project I've worked with. In all honesty the people "stub-sorting" need to loosen up on highway pages. Short of that, you can create something like {{cleanupcsh}} (does NY have one?) Oh yeah some person tried to TFD that too... you seriously cannot win... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

  • You should address such problems to be editors concerned, since a) the stub-sorting process is hardly a monolith (though I did comment a little earlier on the "problem with stubs => WSS gets it in the neck syndrome), and b) that's not stub-sorting. Alai 03:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Canada-tv-bio-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create.

TV biographical stubs are 8 pages; this is the next one to go. Searches support it. Crystallina 23:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Super strong support with a cherry on top. I was hoping someone would tackle this one, as it seems less than amenable to automated analysis. Alai 23:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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Website-stub split

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The result of the debate was create entertainment, defer search engine.

Another five-pager, these look the most plausible. Alai 03:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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US-singer split

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

I mention the undersized ones as categorisation by style is rather low (less than half the 5-page stub), so I strongly suspect they'd be viable if someone cared to do a manual search. Alai 03:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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Some semblance of organization to theatre stubs

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The result of the debate was create theat-struct, defer all others.

Theatre stubs are a horrible mess. They have subcategories on about 4 different axes and there isn't much clear-cut agreement on what goes where. Here's what I'm proposing:

Get rid of {{musical-theat-stub}} and {{Broadway-stub}} as they serve little purpose but to confuse things.

Possibly get rid of {{US-theat-stub}} and {{Euro-theat-stub}} as this axis just doesn't seem ideal; see below.

Split theat-stub into the following axes (some are created):

{{theat-bio-stub}} for biographies; this already exists and I am using it. {{theat-struct-stub}} for actual theatres. {{play-stub}} for plays and {{musical-play-stub}} for musicals.

If any US or European splits of the above are viable, I'll propose them after they're populated. I'm not trying to stomp on anyone's work or sorting; just trying to make it easier on people browsing the categories and trying to make it easier to find things without searching through multiple categories and without mass multiple stubbing. Crystallina 02:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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Pharm-stub split

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

Five page parent, these two look plausible. Alai 01:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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Olympic medalist split

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The result of the debate was do not create.

*Category:Winter Olympics medalist stubs 233

The first would suffice to downsize this for now. The next three are obviously more problematic as regards multi-stubbing, though so would every other axis that springs to mind. (In any case I don't see any currently viable splits by Olympiad.) Alai 01:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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Further split of the asteroids

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The result of the debate was create as "type".

Either:

or

Don't have exact counts of these, due to massive undercategorisation by spectral classes, but these are the most common types, and as the parent is five pages, they're certain to be viable given enough effort to find them; the groups are in each case slightly more inclusive. Alai 22:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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Czech Rep. geo split

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The result of the debate was create, upmerge districts.

Doesn't seem to be much I can do with the Mainland Chinese (undercatting, or too many provinces?), so last of the five page geos to split. Alai 19:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for it. It's too big as one giant mass of stubs, and each of the proposed stub categories will have far more than the minimum necessary required stubs in them. --Nishkid64 21:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

  • For the time being, I've upmerged the above two district-level types; they'd indeed be viable, but it seems excessive to split out districts, when only a couple of the regions have been split out. Alai 05:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Florida-park-stub}} / Category:Florida park stubs

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The result of the debate was do not create.

I don't want to sound like a park-obsessive, but this, at 136, or the slightly more specific -state-park- at 134 are the only feasible splits I can find for the five-page FL-geos. Again the issue arises if this are all technically "protected areas": if so, we could split the same stubs, under than name. Alai 19:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Marine-life-stub}} / Category:Marine life stubs

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The result of the debate was do not create.

There are stubs that cover articles that would be held under this stub but none specifically for marine biology/life articles. Seems this is quite a large topic that, as yet, doesn't have a stub assigned to it. --chris_huh 14:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Nor-cal-stub}} & {{So-cal-stub}}/ Category:Northern California stubs & Category:Southern California stubs

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The result of the debate was do not create.

There are over 350 articles in California stubs, maybe a split is in order to help people looking through the California stubs find stubs about places and things near them. --Daniel Olsen 20:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Canada-mil-hist-stub}} / Category:Canadian military history stubs

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The result of the debate was create double-catted template.

I'd Like to create and populate this category so that the Canadian Military History Project can start picking through it. Mike McGregor (Can) 14:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

  • after looking within some battle stub cats, I've found about 15 stubs, I haven't really checked the US battle stub cat yet... I noted a few within some military equpment cats, and i anticipate finding more within the fortification stub cat. roughly 30 within canadian history stubs at first glance. In addition to this, i'm sure there are many more that have not been marked as stubs and that will be created by the Canadian Military History Task Force. Mike McGregor (Can) 05:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Seems a bit light, and the parent's are by no means oversized. Why not create the template (as {{Canada-mil-hist-stub}}, per Grutness), "upmerged" to (i.e. categorised into both of) Category:Canadian military stubs and Category:Canadian history stubs, and review situation once it grows to 60-ish? While I'd count the "Task Force" as the moral equivalent of a wikiproject, from discussion at MILHIST I gather their scope is in effect all of the existing {{Canada-mil-stub}}, so I wouldn't consider that a pressing reason as such.) Alai 05:48, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, as it happens I was just checking the mil-stubs for possible new stub types -- what they really need is just resorting, actually -- and I found 60 such in or under Category:Military history of Canada. List might be false-positive-ridden, would need checking... Alai 04:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Strike that: it's riddled with 'em. This is what comes of looking ten-deep in the category tree? (If you learned that Roman Romanov were in Category:Russian people stubs, and under Category:Nobility, and you assumed that meant he was a candidate for retagging into Category:Russian nobility stubs -- or else that any confusion was related to his imperial-sounding surname -- you might be surprised... Alai 15:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
is that last comment supposed to be in another section? and does this seem to be moving towards the creation of the category or away from it? because i really cant tell... Mike McGregor (Can) 16:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
That was an (admittedly somewhat digressive) complaint about the strangenesses of the categories that lead to said false-positive rate. The two comments pretty leave us back where they were -- I'd still support an upmerged template immediately, so as to facilitate on-going tagging. Alai 17:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
So, is the next step for me to create an "upmerged" template? What is that, and how do I do it? Mike McGregor (Can) 06:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Create the template Template:Canada-mil-hist-stub and then instead of creating Category:Canadian military history stubs, add both Category:Canadian military stubs and Category:Canadian history stubs to the template. --Usgnus 07:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{US-autoracing-bio-stub}} / Category:United States auto racing biography stubs

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The result of the debate was create.

I'll be honest, I didn't go through and count this. However, considering the prevalence of auto racing in the US, and the fact that this category is oversized, I'd eat my shoe if there weren't at least 60 stubs here. --fuzzy510 03:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Business executive stubs

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

Not the most exciting-sounding split in the world, but would get rid of 105 geezers from the oversized bus-bios. Alai 01:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:United States soap opera actor stubs

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

I realize this is potentially very "overlappy", but it's hard to see many alternatives for down-sizing the US-tv-actors. 107 possibilities. Indeed, I could find zilch, based on the perm-cats. Era is a possibility, but messy. Alai 00:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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Magazines split

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The result of the debate was no consensus.
Per-topic picking are getting very slim, so I suggest:

Better ideas more than welcome... Alai 00:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Remember {{lit-mag-stub}}?? ♥ Her Pegship♥ 22:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Indeed! I don't think it's viable, though (and I wish it were, because {{art-mag-stub}} is horribly and excessively broad, as User:Alaibot's talk page illustrates. My initial estimates seem very high, and I'm not at all sure why that was. If you can make it viable, either as well as or instead of the art-mags in general, I'd fully support, otherwise I'd consider the proposal withdrawn, or at least held over pending definitive evidence of a sufficient population. (I'd be happy to re-crunch the numbers in the db dump's time or two if someone reminds me.) Alai 23:56, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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Chemistry split

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The following look plausible, on the basis of counts from the corresponding perm-cats:

Haven't checked for any possible overlap... Alai 06:12, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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Star stubs split

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The result of the debate was create HR class, defer spectral type.

This was discussed before, but we didn't really come to any definitive conclusion, much less act on it. To get specific:

(But not both the latter groups, before the anti-double-stub police do me over.) Alai 05:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I failed to notice that Category:Star system stubs duplicates Category:Multiple star stubs, so I've just merged that in. The double-stars are looking more likely to be viable without depleting the triple-plusses (not that it's necessary for size, but it would more closely follow the perms. I went ahead with the HR classes, so unless anyone objects after the fact, I suggest we defer a split by spectral type until the main-star-stubs need to be split, in a Moore or so's time. Alai 07:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
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Anatomy split

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

"Sounds painful." The following seem to be viable, on the basis of perm-cats:

Of this seven-page category, I note that almost 300 are in Category:Animal anatomy. If these aren't supposed to be there, as was asserted when I proposed it in the context of splitting the med-stubs, can someone check for mis-sorting? Alai 04:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Biochemistry stubs split

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

Another seven-pager.

I know the name of the first is confusing, but it'd correspond to Category:Biochemicals, rather than Category:Biochemistry. Lipids, enzymes and nucleic acids are all in the mid-30s, but maybe there's underclassification... Alai 02:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:World War II naval ship stubs, Category:Australian World War II stubs

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

In both Category:Naval ship stubs and Category:World War II stubs, 84 articles; in both Category:Australian military stubs and Category:World War II stubs, 83. Other possible means of working down the oversized WW2s. Alai 22:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{artcon-stub}} Please

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The result of the debate was do not create.

Art Conservation is a significant field of museum studies, incorporating topics from the physical sciences and art history. At present there are some articles that would qualify for this stub which might attract more encyclopedic entries:

and I would add more stub articles if the heading was approved. Richardjames444 13:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

the appropriate category currently would be Category:Museology, although you are probably right in noting that there aren't 60 stubs at this time. I'll dig a little deeper and if there isn't, I'll redact the proposal. Richardjames444 17:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for the link to Category:Museology. I'd suggest expanding that category and its related sub-cats and propose the stub again later when you have a larger group. ~ Amalas rawr =^_^= 18:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
That perm-cat is suggestive of a much wider scope than the original, though. It's hard to get a reasonable count for a {{museology-stub}} though, as the category includes very broad topics, like archeology and art history, that already have pretty sensible stub types. (Yet more complex category queries required...) I'd be supportive of that type if it's viable, though, in preference to them being shoved into {{museum-stub}}, where they'll get jumbled up with the very large numbers of actual museum buildings. Alai 18:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{The Ts-stub}}

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The result of the debate was BJAODN.

The Ts were formed in 1997, as a bunch of Sydney Technical High School students moved on to university. The members included, Sharbie, Kourathi, Stewart Little, Zungla, Junior, Blago, Skatopouniari, Aleko and Hesti.

Once at uni, the gang took their universities by storm.

More info soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kourabie (talk • contribs)

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{{AfricanUnion-stub}}/Category:African Union stubs

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The result of the debate was do not create.

Briaboru I'm not sure the number of stubs will be as small as some might think of course no one wants tons of stubs, but the more chances for articles to be expanded upon.

Likely very small, the AU (and its predecessor the OAU) haven't done very much that is noteworthy, though the AU has been much better in that regard than its predecessor. Not only that, most potential stubs would likely be double-stubbed with {{Africa-politican-stub}} which isn;'t that large at present anyway. Caerwine Caerwhine 22:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
oppose unless there's some explanation for its rationale and some indication that it will pass threshold. Grutness...wha? 06:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose per Grutness. I don't think we have 60 non-bio articles about this one. The politicians normally use {{Africa-politician-stub}} + a national template. Valentinian (talk) 07:12, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
strong oppose Monni 21:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm amended the header per the naming guidelines again. Alai 23:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. No evidence that category is sufficiently populated or well-scoped. --CComMack (t&#149;c) 23:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{sci-fi game-stub}}

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The result of the debate was do not create.

There are game stubs, and scifi stubs, but what about Sci-Fi games? Troggulus August 5 2006

Per the usual format, this should be {{sf-game-stub}}, eh? ♥ Her Pegship♥ 20:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Agree with Peg on name, but what exactly is the scope of this? CVGs, RPGs and boardgames with an SF theme? Not how we're splitting any of those. Alai 05:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
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Mathematician split

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

I could have sworn I'd already proposed some of these, but...

All are over threshold. I'm in the process of creating upmerged templates for three of the above, plus Poland- and Russia, in order to populate the previously-proposed euros. So you can use those to scrutinise the future contents of these categories... Alai 03:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{NovaScotia-road-stub}} / Category:Nova Scotia road stubs; {{Quebec-road-stub}} / Category:Quebec road stubs

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The result of the debate was no consensus.

As people are seemingly itching to start splitting the Canadian road stubs, these would seem more logical places to start. Each of these would have ~100 (though the parent is not yet oversized). Alai 17:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Scotland-sport-stub}} / Category:Scottish sport stubs

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The result of the debate was do not create.

As suggested by User:Grutness here. He thought that there would be around 75 articles. Stub Sense suggests 1039 (about 570 if you exclude all the "bio" stubs). True figure probably somewhere in-between. Parent Category:Scotland stubs currently at 734 articles. It would be a logical parent for Category:Scottish sportspeople stubs too. This is a subject area that is just going to grow and grow, because Wikipedia has barely even started to scratch the surface of Scottish sport topics yet. --Mais oui! 14:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

  • support per my earlier comments. I suspect that 1039 (?!) would include sport-bio-stubs, which probably need some sort of caveat about double-stubbing or (if there are enough) a separate scotland-sport-bio-stub. We're probably better to wait and see how this one looks first, though. Grutness...wha? 23:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Strong oppose I thought we had decided to not go with splitting sport by country. I do support keeping the already existing {{Scotland-sport-bio-stub}} and {{Scotland-footy-bio-stub}} tho, which already have some 450 stubs. Caerwine Caerwhine 01:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Further comment I've been able to bring Scotland stubs down in size by doing some sorting into existing cats. I've gone thru D and it's already down to 666 stubs from the previously mentioned 734. So size does not seem to be a pressing reason for this stub either.
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The result of the debate was split by era.

{{baseball-starting-pitcher-stub}} / {{baseball-relief-pitcher-stub}}

Pitcher stubs was always overflowing, but with the recent downsizing of the parent, it's bursting at the seams. This seems like the most logical way to do it. --fuzzy510 00:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support. Category:Baseball pitcher stubs has 6 pages. --Usgnus 21:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't know enough about baseball to yay or nay this... but I will comment that sooner or later, splitting by era is likely to be needed. Grutness...wha? 23:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • A two-way split of such a large type seems sub-optimal in the extreme: lots of work, to create two categories that are themselves in immediate danger of splitting. To say nothing of the possibility that people start double-stubbing en masse (I assume it's far from rare for pitchers to have filled both roles). Rather than tilt at this particular windmill, I'd much rather see a split by era, or by league, or by something that's more likely to be a longer-term solution. Alai 00:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I'd caution against splitting by league, because I think that'd be even less effective than what I proposed. By era would work I think, as long as we made it clear in the category that a player should only go into the era(s) that they predominantly played in. --fuzzy510 01:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Yes, era is inherently fuzzy for non-discrete quantities like careers. Probably something like "decade in which they last played professionally (or otherwise at a "notable" level) would be the most "definable" way to go. Alai 00:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Mmmm. I don't think it will be too much of a problem, even without specifying it too much. Most sportspeople are associated primarily with one or at most two decades. Any which played in three will have almost certainly played at the tail end of one, all of a second, and the start of a third, in which case the second is the most logical template to use. After all, how many players play for over 20 years? I doubt we'll get huge amounts of multi-stubbing. Grutness...wha? 01:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Now, no-one hit me, but the following would all appear to be technically viable...

Whether or not this is a sensible axis is another matter... Alai 23:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Technically viable, yes, but if you look there are some pitchers who've played for 6, 7 or 8 teams. I'd think that the majority of them were playing for one or two teams at most, but if you do the math, it works out to an average of a little more than two stub tags per article. I realize that double-stubbing isn't a bad thing, but considering the amount of work that would have to go into this and the possible result, I really don't think, like you said, it's sensible. --fuzzy510 03:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Eww. I'm now convinced, it's time to knuckle(ball) under and split by decade. --CComMack (t&#149;c) 06:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was no consensus.

Television sub-categories

There is a lot of stubs for television, and I think we could split it into the following: {{reality-tv-stub}} - There's a big brother stub, so why not reality. Many new reality shows are stubs, especially the ones that are cancelled right away. {{tv-drama-stub}} {{sitcom-stub}} {{tv-dating-stub}} {{children-tv-stub}} and there are others too. --andrew 21:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

There shouldn't be a Big Brother stub, and I'll work on fixing that right now. In the mean time, how many is "a lot"? 60 is the traditional threshold. --fuzzy510 20:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was create.

{{orchestra-stub}} / Category:Orchestra stubs

This is for a stub that would include orchestras and other classical ensembles. I don't really want to do the work for it, but this stub would be very useful. There is already a {{US-orchestra-stub}} for US based orchestras and other classical ensembles, but not for any other country. There probably are not enough stubs in each individual country to be able to add it as a sub category to each already existing stub category, but the 'by nationality' approach already seems to be in full swing. Any thoughts? --Amazzing5 19:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Another question, if anyone is interested: why would this (and the previous US stub) be called 'orchestra' when the parent category is Category:Classical music groups? -Amazzing5 03:38, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

  • That is indeed a good question. Which you ask now, after creating and part-populating it? :) To be fair, there is indeed a Category:Orchestras too. But making the parent the "classical groups" would be more inclusive, so on the whole it seems like a good plan. I'd suggest we keep the templates, as {{US-classical-group-stub}} is a tad less intuitive, and upmerge to Category:Classical musical group stubs and "United States" same (adding additional template too, possibly). Alai 04:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, first, I never claimed to be intelligent, and second, I was just following precedent. So, let me see if I am understanding you. As I understand, you are suggesting changing the category names to the more generic form, but keeping the stub-templates with the shorter and less accurate names. Is that correct?--Amazzing5 22:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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Some British stubs

I am currently trying to sort out the British people stubs, but have discovered that some people can't be easily categorised. I therefore propose the following stubs, all of which can hold at least twenty people each from what I've already seen and I suspect many more:

Edited for 2nd time, following comments below:

Dev920 13:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Oppose unless you can find a lot more for each category. Monni 13:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I undoubtedly will when I stubsort some more. Dev920 13:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
No opinion, but if created, the "UK" should be capitalized. ♥ Her

Pegship♥ 15:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Per above. Please find at least sixty of each, and capitalise UK. Also I'd suggest a serious rethink about those that there's no non-UK stub parent for, and consider merging the scope of some of these. For example, civil servants should surely be in the -gov- hierarchy, and the LGBT type should surely only be applied to LGBT activists, and thus should be included in that grouping. Alai 17:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why we're bothering with bio templates instead of stub templates, but we do already have {{UK-historian-stub}} and {{UK-comedian-stub}}. I spent a good long time sorting out the UK-bio-stubs a month or two ago. There are certainly enough for a {{UK-gov-bio-stub}} for the civil servants and colonial administrators. (We don't have a {{gov-bio-stub}} yet for non-political government functionaies, but I think we should. The spouses could mostly go into a {{UK-poli-bio-stub}} which would also include political parents and children. I'm uncertain about the numbers for a {{UK-activist-stub}}, but I doubt if there are enough for either a {{UK-magician-stub}} or a {{UK-herald-stub}}, especially since the latter should already be in {{UK-historian-stub}} as genealogists and that stub type has less than 120 stubs at present. Caerwine Caerwhine 22:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Those stubs you mentioned are not currently on the British People category page. Hence I did not know about them. The comedian one, however, simply adds a comedian category and a british person category, NOT a british comedian category. not sure why that is. However, a UK-gov-bio seems a better idea than the ones I suggested; I have no doubt it would result in your required 60 stubs.
If heralds can go in historians (which still seems slightly odd to me) I shall go and put them there in the next day or two, as well as adding the link to the page. Dev920 10:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Classifying heralds/officers of arms with uk-historian-stub seems not quite right to me as well. I noticed this happening in some of the pages on my watchlist when Caerwine was stub sorting a month or two ago. After looking through the categories I eventually reconstructed the logic alluded to above (heralds are also genealogists, aka family historians which is a subset of historians, therefore give them uk-historian-stub). However when I see This article about a British historian is a stub at the bottom of the bio of a herald, this makes me think that the person had something to do with history, i.e. studied it, wrote books/papers etc, (rather than genealogy), when for the most part this is not the case. uk-genealogist-stub or heraldry-bio-stub (if such were to exist) would seem to me a better fit for heralds, but I defer to those with more experience with stubs. Dr pda 11:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I thought so. Maybe a herald subesection of historians someday soon then. Dev920 12:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Another possible solution is to change the text to read This article about a British historian or genealogist is a stub. --Usgnus 15:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I've tweaked the comedians category so 1)it actually forms a category and 2) it's listed in british people stubs. Onward...Dev920 11:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the fact that it fed 2 separate categories was deliberate. Now Category:British comedian stubs has 39 stubs, Category:Comedian stubs has about 400, Category:British people stubs has 423 stubs. --Usgnus 15:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
British comedians will no doubt grow after the Edinburgh fringe, I wouldn't worry about it. I just don't see the point of making a template and then not creating a category for it. You know, like WP:STUB says to, if we're going to stick so tightly to the rules.Dev920 00:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a separate template, with canned text making the heraldic nature of their notability explicit, feeding into the same category, for the time being? Also, can you tweak the proposal some more, so that they all start with "UK-" and end with "-stub", one way or another? (e.g. {{UK-gov-bio-stub}}, {{UK-activist-stub}}, etc). Alai 14:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It's taken me an entire damn day, but it's mostly gone. My edit count has jumped 300 in 2 days...Dev920 00:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
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US sports venue splits

These have been proposed before, to stiff opposition from the NZ quarter, but they continue to grow (7 pages now), and these continue to be the only viable splits based on existing perm-cats.

I find we can assume the first two at least don't overlap a great deal; the others I can check, if that factors into anyone's decision-making process. Alai 03:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I for one would like to see how much overlap occurs between the last two, and between each of them and the second. I'm resigned to this split happening in a way that includes double-stubbing, but would like to avoid too much of that. --CComMack (t&#149;c) 03:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
    • 37 in common between the last two (so not even enough for a combo-type). The overlap between the second and third is obviously utter and complete: if both were created (which I'm not necessarily suggesting: I had in mind by sport, or by form of venue), #3 would essentially be a subtype of #2, and in no way should the two be double-stubbed with both. Alai 04:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I still don't like this on the basis that too many of these will be properly double- or triple-stubbed into the new categories, completely defeating the purpose. If someone can show me numbers that prove me wrong, I'll support this. Otherwise, I don't think this is a truly viable way to split them. --fuzzy510 05:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
    • The "purpose" would be to reduce the size of the parent (from north of 1400, let me remind you), which this manifestly would do. Do explain to me why 37 double-stubbings (at worst -- I'd be happy to leave those in the parent, personally) "completely defeats" the purpose of getting rid of 600 excess articles from an oversized stub type. (And incidentally, compared to the actors and musicians, this is a double-stubbing cakewalk.) Alai 04:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
      • First off, my apologies for not signing my original comment. Secondly, I'm saying that it wouldn't work because, without seeing the numbers of double-stubbings, the 1400+ stubs would not really be reduced by that many when they were double- or triple-tagged. Instead, we could be left with multiple large categories to contend with. Please also consider that I made those comments without knowing that you were proposing one pair or another; I thought you were proposing all four categories, which would be rather cumbersome. Also know that I commented before I knew that there were 37 double-stubbings - knowing this, I'd support a split by sport.
        What I would caution against, however, is using the first two categories. I went through and sorted into that category many moons ago, and found that a LOT of the indoor venues were college basketball arenas or field houses. Again, I don't have the numbers, but I have a feeling that there would be a lot of double-stubbing there, which would be rather bothersome. --fuzzy510 05:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Where? I think you lost me a couple of permutations back. Indeed, it's a question of degree: if one ends up splitting a type two ways, and half of them end up double-stubbed with both, one is essentially treading water in the long run: and more extreme situations are possible. It's surely not beyond the wit of man to devise a split that actually improves the situation, though. I'm proposing all four as possibilities, but I'll take whatever I can get, approval-wise. If we go with several of the above, then certainly we have to consider their interaction. "Indoor basketball arena" is, as I say, tautological at least in practice, so double-stubbing there would be completely redundant. (I can always de-double-stub them by bot if it someone insists on doing it anyway...) The first two overlap more than I'd have thought, but a Category:United States indoor college athletics arena stubs type would take care of that. Alai 06:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
          • I think I've managed to confuse us both here, so I'm just going to make this simple and end this part of the discussion - support sorting by sport. --fuzzy510 08:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I hate to say this, but I still think a state-by-state split is more useful than a by-code split. The US may be unusual in this regard, but almost all stadia I've ever seen both here and overseas are multi-use. Even if a by-sport split makes some sense for the US, it would be useless for other countries, and splitting one country one way and the rest another makes little sense. Doubly so since it's very likely that other structures will be better split by location, and we're moving towards the stage of that happening with US structures overall, I think. In any case, splitting out categories that are so big that they would quickly need resplitting seems a bit pointless to me. Grutness...wha? 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Not only does my flip-flopping mind agree with this, but I agree with it so much that I will single-handedly create and populate all 50 (or however many) categories if/when it's passed! Of course, my mind could change four more times in the next 24 hours, so don't hold me too strictly to this one...... --fuzzy510 03:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Currently that'd be zero, on the basis of my counts of per-state viability. A split by region would be the closest one could do at present, which personally I think is taking the vagueness to excess. ("It's someplace in the left half of the U.S., and they play some sort of sport there.") Personnally I think splitting by form of venue (does it have a large grass pitch; a running track; a roof; a hard floor: tricky and existential stuff like that) should have been a slam-dunk about three proposals ago, but... Alai 04:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Lacrosse-stub}}/Category:Lacrosse stubs

I have added a few lacrosse-related pages, and plan to add more. There are already a bunch of player pages with minimal information that should be expanded. --MrBoo 02:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

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Japan-education-stub

I propose {{Japan-education-stub}}. I've counted about 65 candidates for inclusion in this stub category, gathered from the current Category:Japan stubs and the many subcategories of Category:Education in Japan. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

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Split of Category:Name stubs

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I've just noticed that the above category is at 730 stubs. Without doing any counts whatsoever, I think a {{surname-stub}} and {{forename-stub}}. The corresponding main categories are Category:Surnames and Category:Given names, so the {{forename-stub}} might need a rename. --TheParanoidOne 22:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Surname stubs, Category:Given name stubs

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There's at least 231 and 146 of these, respectively. Wasn't this proposed already? Incidently, there's also 78 articles which are double-stubbed with both linguistics-stub and name-stub, which isn't a great plan, as both are oversized. Unless anyone is aware of a deep reason for this, I'll remove the former from all of these. Alai 22:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the permcat parents' names are, but I'd suggest that Category:Family name stubs and Category:Given name stubs might be better, even if only to parallel each other. Grutness...wha? 06:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Proposal follows the permcats. Alai 18:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Romania-band-stub}}

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Most major countries have their own Musical group stubs. I want this for 3 Sud Est to try to attract the right editor to this article. BlueValour 19:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment - the point of a stub type is to attract editors to improve an article. If this stub is not created then the chances of getting the attention of an editor knowlegeable on the Romanian scene will be much reduced. BlueValour 22:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose a separate category; just double-stub them, or if you must, create a template only, feeding into both categories. When there are so few articles on a topic, it's a strong indication that it'd be a "road less travelled" if farmed out into a separate category, and liable to be even more neglected. A better bet is to attract editors familiar with "Romanian topics" or with "European bands", and hope for the best, at least until such time as coverage increases significantly. Alai 22:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • strong oppose not even enough non-stub articles. Monni 11:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Maharashtra-singer-stub}}

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This stub is to further split the {{India-singer-stub}}. It is to include Indian singers that have their origins in Maharashtra, India. Other stubs could also be state-wise. Example:

and so one (one per each state}

and even language singer stubs

and so on (one for each language). The purpose is to make it easy for regional groups to find and refine on regional singers.

-- Mayuresh 16:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

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DC schools

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Somehow, there seems to be no "Category:Washington, D.C. school stubs". Stubs with this tag instead link to Category:Washington, D.C. stubs, Category:Southern United States school stubs, and (where applicable) Category:High schools in the District of Columbia. (Example: Cardozo High School (Washington, D.C.).) I am not sure exactly how to fix this... I would just change Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Stub types to create a new category, but it says to discuss changes. Could someone please help out? Perhaps I am not even posting in the right place... I feel a bit out of my element. Dar-Ape 21:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This setup was created on purpose to allow for a suitable number of Washington DC school stubs to accumulate. When there are a good number, whoever's monitoring this will create the category and change the stubtag to go to it. I'm not keeping track of it personally, but if you feel like there are an appropriate number - at least 65 - let me know and I'll take a look at changing it. Aelfthrytha 21:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
You're in the right place, but as Aelfthrytha says there's a reason for the current setup. The template {{WashingtonDC-stub}} is used on fewer than ten articles, which if you refer to WP:STUB, you'll note is much too small for a separate category. If there are stray articles this could be be applied to, please do so, and this can be revisited in due course. Alai 22:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks fof the quick responses. It would still make sense to me to change the High School category to a general school category so as to be more inclusive, but I suppose since there are so few DC school stubs at this point it may not be worth worrying about. You know better than me, and congratulations on your new barnstar, Aelfthrytha. Dar-Ape 22:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, the stub categories are all scoped to include any and all schools, whether primary or secondary (or any of the flavours in between). If you mean Category:High schools in the District of Columbia, then renaming or scoping that would be a matter for WP:CFR. Alai 22:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Cricket-team-stub}} / Category:Cricket team stubs

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A good chunk of the nearly 700 cricket stubs would seem to go here. Also, please correct me if it's a cricket club and not a cricket team - most of us over here don't know of cricket as anything besides a bug. --fuzzy510 11:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a good idea, but the name is a bit problematical. Cricket club would be better, but that wouldn't include national sides. Perhaps cricket-club-stub (with a redirect at cricket-team-stub) leading into Category:Cricket club and team stubs might solve the problem. Grutness...wha? 23:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
If the difference lies in that national teams are teams, whereas everything else is a club, let me go and see the possibility of splitting the national teams out separately, a la football. --fuzzy510 16:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I doubt there would be enough countries that play the game. Sure there are 60-80 countries that play cricket, but the bigger ones won't have stubs and the smaller ones might not have organised national sides. Mind you, there are probably national age-group and women's teams in the stub pile, too, so it might work. Grutness...wha? 23:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Sheep-stub}}

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{{sheep-stub}} I didn't know that you had to request a catergory before you created the template. Anyway, I created a Sheep related stub template. If it does not comply with guidlines, please delete it. Fneep 07:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you'll find enough articles (at least 60) to put into that category. If you can give reason why you think it's possible, then I think it's a good idea. Eli Falk 09:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, there ARE a lot of breeds of sheep. I used to work on an urban farm with a rare breeds programme. Adam Cuerden 10:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
If you look at the List of Sheep Breeds page, there are many potential stubs. Plus I made the template so that is all sheep related articles. Wool and fictional sheep articles can go in it too. Fneep 07:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
If you want to write several good stubs about sheep, that can help. I said that if there are enough (60 if there is no project for it, 30 if there is), then it's a good idea. Having created {{even-toed-ungulate-stub}}, I did go through all the mammal stubs and I think there may be 30 right now, but not 60. Eli Falk 16:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Vermont road stubs

There's a wikiproject, getting on for 30 stubs, and an existing {{Vermont-road-stub}}, which I just edited to move the wikiproject link to the category page... before realizing there was no category page. I also double-catted the template, thereby worsening the ever-growing state of Category:United States road stubs, oops. Alai 02:06, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I just created it. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 03:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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G&S-Stub

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(Have prepared a rough draft of it: Template:G&S-Stub) Scope: Articles within the remit of Wikipedia:WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan Reason for Need: We are a fairly active project, but, at the moment, we are somewhat being forced to forego stubs because that would cause some confusion as to what needs done. A way of grouping stubs would make expansion easier. Current articles that would usefully have the stub category include The Mountebanks (opera) (It's not, perhaps, as empty as it could be, but it lacks half the features needed for a full-fledged opera article), and many of the actors and performers, many of which have articles of about this detail: Alan_Styler. Not the worst you could get, but having this template would no doubt allow a lot more stubs to be made to fill in the gaps. Adam Cuerden 21:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I've taken the liberty of moving this to {{G&S-stub}}, per the naming guidelines, and deleting the redirect at the above name (and at {{G}}). G&S passes the ambiguity test, so that's just about OK, if a little terse, so my only real remaining question is: are there 30 stub article that are primarily notable in connection with G&S? If not, this is either going to be infeasibly small, or result in a lot of double-stubbing with whatever-we're-calling-the-musical-theatre-stub-types-this-week. Or both. Alai 21:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Since it is part of a large and active project, and given most of the actors related to G&S are almost entirely known for that reason, I'd say yes. The Victorian English Theatre is... Well... Let's just put it this way. Gibert, German-Reed, and a few others are largely accredited with saving the Victorian theatre from a period of extreme awfulness and degredation - see some of George Bernard Shaw's descriptions of the time, Jessie Bond's biography, and several other such things - and so, Gilbert is connected to almost everyone notable of the time, and Sullivan worked with most of the other half. Alfred Cellier, Sydney Grundy, Frederic Clay, Thomas German-Reed Oscar Wilde (Importance of Being Earnest was inspired by Gilbert's Engaged). So,w e have a situation where a G&S tag would be appropriate for almost everyone notable in that period of theatre, because almost everyone of importance save Elgar and Wilde, are almost entirely notable for being part of this revolution of which Gilbert and his friends are the prime movers. Not to mention Gilbert wrote something like 20, 30 operas and musical entertainments away from Sullivan, and around a hundred plays, huge amounts of poetry, a large number of song lyrics (only a few now notable, mind), and a great number of short stories. (There are a few books, but they're either collections of the above or reworkings of a more famous work).
That said, there is a valid objection: Things tend to leave stub category fast. Mountebanks, which I mentioned above, is now a much bulkier article than it was when I first referenced it. As well, the very short stubs seen elsewhere tend not to appear, with articles tending to start off with at least a quick synopsis. However, I would hope that the creation of a stub tag - or perhaps another, more appropriate G&S-related tag - would make it easier to quickly throw together very short articles on all the remaining, unarticled work, without fear that we'd be concealing what needs to be done by doing so. Having some way to shift off all unfinished work into a to-do folder is useful in a project. Adam Cuerden 00:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Your examples are more than a little worrying: so far, three non-stubs, a redlink, and an opera singer that'd have to remain double-stubbed in any event, for a total of one actual stub, not in any need (or danger) of re-sorting as such. Currently I suspect you'd be better off with a "to do" list locally at the wikiproject, or at the the outside an upmerged stub template (only) feeding into the musical theatre category, to be split into a separate category if the antipated stub explosion even does actually appear. Alai 00:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I've just had a look at the mock-up at {{G&S-stub}} and... well, it's pretty appalling, to be frank. Huge (a no-no), with a box (a no-no), and a coloured background (a no-no), and links to the wikiproject (generally discouraged - they belong in the category, or via a separate template on the talk page). I've overhauled it to make it more stub-like. Grutness...wha? 01:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Adam's version looked sufficiently unlike a stub template I didn't quite register it as such. (I cogdissed it as a category template, perhaps.) Your version is merely horrible. :) I've tweaked it some more... But any thoughts on the actual proposal, at all? Alai 02:56, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems worryingly thin on stubs. It might have an eventual use, but I don't really see its usefulness yet. I think that a better solution for the WikiProject would be an "Article part of the WikiPoject" type template for use on article talk pages, similar to {{WPBeatles}} - that would allow the project much more information about articles than simply using a stub template, too. Grutness...wha? 22:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
We already have one of those. Adam Cuerden 12:21, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I am willing to concede lack of need. Articles simply expand too quickly for it to be useful. Adam Cuerden 10:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

That's one of the main reasons we have a threshold. If there are only a few stubs and a couple of dedicated editors a stub category can empty very quickly. You'll probably find that the talk page template does everything you want a stub template to do and more if used well. Grutness...wha? 00:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{chicken-food-stub}}

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The result of the debate was do not create.
there are a lot of chicken based foods on the other food lists Qrc2006 20:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{reference-stub}} or {{ref-work-stub}} / Category:Reference work stubs

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The result of the debate was create as revised..

There are currently 78 items that qualify; this would be a child of Category:Reference works. ♥ Her Pegship♥ 19:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{criminal-law-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create.

Criminal law is also a major subtopic of crime, as well as {{law}}, with 100+ stub articles found using stub sense. [5]. --Aude (talk contribs) 21:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{law-enforcement-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create.

As with forensics, a great deal of work is needed on law enforcement-related articles. Using stub sense, I have found 100+ stub articles [6] that would fit this category. By having a subcategory, it would help in stub sorting through {{crime}}, and other categories. --Aude (talk contribs) 21:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{forensics-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create.

Wikipedia coverage of forensics is poor, with numerous stubs. Basic topics such as cold case, crime reconstruction, crime scene, FBI Laboratory. forensic pathology, trace evidence, vehicular accident reconstruction (just created) are still short stubs, yet alone more in-depth forensics topics, such as greiss test, serology (also stubs), and others that don't have articles yet. A stub category would help to sort through crime-stub articles, and take stock of forensics articles, and see what needs to be done. --Aude (talk contribs) 18:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • If the stubs are numerous to the tune of at least 60, per the size guidelines, I'd support this as a full-fledged stub type. (Less if there's a wikiproject on this topic.) If not, an upmerged template pointing back to Category:Crime stubs to allow on-going tagging and sorting might be a plan. Alai 19:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
    • With ~600 crime stubs, these need to be sorted into subcategories, with the existing subcategories inadequate. Basically, I'm the wikiproject for the topic. I don't think anyone else is working on these topics. (though if people join me in helping, all the better) I don't have a count for the number of forensics stubs, but the number may approach or exceed 60. There's also the legal aspect of forensics, with articles such as Brady v. Maryland, Frye v. United States, Kumho Tire v. Carmichael, ... And, there should be subarticles on the various DNA analysis methods, such as mitochondrial analysis. --Aude (talk contribs) 19:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
      • As I say, the size guidelines imply waiting until there's at least 60 such, unless matters are pretty desparate one way or the other. (600 in the parent is largish, but quite yet "officially" oversized, much less the worst such, though granted it'll get there soon enough if nothing's done.) I realize that it's annoying and difficult to judge that before doing the sorting, hence my suggestion of creating the template now to facilitate that, and the category later. Alai 19:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
        • I'm also working on criminal justice, criminal law, law enforcement, and criminology topics, which like forensics, there is a dearth of coverage on Wikipedia. I'm sure there are numerous untagged, unsorted stubs, and many articles not yet created. Having proper subcategories of {{crime-stub}} would be the best way to work through these topics and the stubs. Without proper subcategories, I won't bother tagging the articles (like vehicular accident reconstruction) as stubs, as adding to {{crime-stub}} only exacerbates the situation. (and some forensics topics, e.g. vehicular accident reconstruction, and mass casualty victim identification aren't always crime topics) Anyway, with stub sense, I have found 100+ existing forensics stubs. [7] --Aude (talk contribs) 21:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{US-boxing-bio-stub}} / Category:United States boxing biography stubs

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The result of the debate was create.

CatScan gives me about 70, but glancing through the parent category I'd bet that there's more than that. In any case, the parent is close to spilling onto 5 pages. --fuzzy510 19:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

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African football bio splits

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The result of the debate was create at least Morocco.

I'll preface this by saying that none of these quite hit 60, but there's been no splitting of the category thusfar, and they're all very close. With that said:

I'd be willing to bet that these will fill out shortly with articles pulled in from elsewhere. --fuzzy510 08:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Neutral but leaning toward support - If they're all so close, would you be willing to poke around in the bio-stubs or stubs of the related countries and see if you can turn up a few more? The category will need splitting soon as it moves toward four full pages, so I would lean toward support, but at the same time we've been approving more and more templates which don't threshold yet. Aelfthrytha 16:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
From a little bit of cursory searching, I can't find anything else. However, that doesn't worry me too much - I looked through these about 3 weeks ago and these were all at lesser levels than they are now. I'd be willing to bet that within a short period of time, these would hit 60. Besides, like you said, the category will soon need splitting. --fuzzy510 19:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
From just scratching the surface of the Moroccan footballers category, I found 4 more bios that were under sorted. Support Morocco at the very least, more likely all 3.--Thomas.macmillan 19:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
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Ice hockey team splits

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The result of the debate was create.

This one's getting close to spilling onto a fifth page:

I'm not sure if the Ontario split is something that we necessarily want to do, but I thought I'd mention it anyway, since by province seems like the most logical split if the parent ever did become oversized. None of the other provinces are quite ready to follow suit, with Quebec being next with 39 teams. --fuzzy510 01:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

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School Stubs, Take Two

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The result of the debate was create.

{{Africa-school-stub}} and Category:African school stubs would help to further reduce the {{school-stub}} grouping. There are 145 of them, so it's definitely viable. Aelfthrytha 16:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Support. {{SouthAfrica-school-stub}} (55 stubs) would be a good idea, even if it fed Category:African school stubs initially. --Usgnus 16:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree - revising of proposal - {{SouthAfrica-school-stub}} will also be created but will feed into Category:African school stubs. I expect it to top out soon, so this should save future work. Aelfthrytha 19:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Seems a good idea for symmetry, as much as anything else. Any idea about the SoAmericans? Alai 17:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not prepared to propose {{SouthAm-school-stub}} at this time as a separate category because there are only 34 of them. It could be fed into the general school stub category for the present time, because I expect it to increase. This afternoon I'll see if there are more untagged ones and give an updated count. Aelfthrytha 19:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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Swimming bios split

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The result of the debate was create.

Another category that's getting a little pudgy......

Thoughts? --fuzzy510 14:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Support. Assuming those numbers above are correct, I think it's a good idea. The Dutch is a bit close, but if it's at least 60 - then I think it's a good idea. Eli Falk 16:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Support all. Alai 17:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Support all, including Dutch. --Usgnus 04:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was create.

{{UK-bridge-struct-stub}} and {{UK-church-stub}}

There are currently 42 churches/cathedrals/chapels/abbeys and 38 bridges in the main UK-struct-stub category, plus over 50 and over 30 respectively in subcategories of it (there's also a fair bit of undersorting of castles...). May well be worth adding a {{UK-church-stub}} and a {{UK-bridge-stub}}. Grutness...wha? 07:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was create as revised..

Queensland geo split

Again with the parks, I know! And/or, one seemingly viable region. Alai 19:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Support. --Nishkid64 21:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{cvg-music-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create.

There are dozens of articles at WikiProject CVG that cannot be categorised into any existing CVG stub, because they are either rhythm/music games, or articles related to computer game music. Since the former have to be "clunkily" given an "action-cvg-stub" tag or simply left with "cvg-stub," there's some need for a new stub for these two groups of articles. RandyWang (chat me up/fix me up) 11:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Support: I can see the need for this tag. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 13:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Support: Seems like a good idea. Ajaxfan 13:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Would that be >= 5 "dozens", or would this be a wikiproject about to foist another undersized stub type on us? (Though at least it got a mention here...) Alai 14:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Support: Fills a big hole in cvg stubs, and yes Alai, since it can be used for cvg music and albums, not just games, definately >5 dozens. --PresN 17:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
The distinction escapes me, but if there really are 60 articles, per the stub creation size guidelines, then fair enough. Alai 17:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Support per above. --SevereTireDamage 20:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Indian-food-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create template, upmerge cat.

Many many articles are found in India-culture-stub. Infact, the majority are Indian food stubs. Bakaman Bakatalk 02:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

So if I change the name to {{India-food-stub}}, I have the go ahead?Bakaman Bakatalk 03:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Can you confirm there's 60? You should wait seven days for any other input on this, though. (At least until such time we acclaim a Stub Approval Group Moderator Director For Life -- this wikiproject's no fun, why don't we have any big important titles?) Alai 04:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
There's about 30-40 at the moment, but with this being placed as a priority on the Bangal Wikiproject, the Bengali cuisine stubs and Indian cuisine stubs will probably bolster the number.Bakaman Bakatalk 01:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
For choice, then, create just the template, populate, and create a separate category once there's 60. Alai 01:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok. This stub category was much needed. I cannot tell if there are 60 articles. However, there are many! And will be more. --Dwaipayan (talk) 12:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I've speedied Category:India food stubs, which I have no idea what it thought it was doing. Come to that, Category:Indian food stubs has all of 20 articles (rather than 30-40, or "many": much less 60), and was created after two days, rather than seven. Yes, WP:STUB is "only a guideline", but the last time I checked, "guideline" did not mean "swan along paying it no regard whatsoever". Alai 15:10, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
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Creation of Category:Geographer stubs for {{Geographer-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create.

At the momment the category for stubs marked {{Geographer-stub}} is under the earth scientist stubs category meaning that human geographer stubs are being placed in an inappropriate place (or not marked at all) and also making it difficult to find the geographers from the earth scientists and develop them to more than stubs. Also looking through the category:geographers there seems to be few, therefore to prevent the earth scientist stubs getting crowded I think that a category for geographer stubs should be created. AlexD 16:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

  • The template's really not seeing that much use: there's <40 of 'em, and the threshold for stub category creation is 60. Nor do I see anything inappropriate, or unmanageable about the current structure; it reflects the way the permanent categories are organised (Category:Human geography as a sub-sub-sub-cat of Category:Earth sciences, and the category listing is less than one page. In fact, at 131 stubs, splitting it in such a way and to not make one or other undersized would have to be pretty precise. If you can find a large clump of untagged geographers (human or otherwise), then fair enough, otherwise this is neither viable, nor necessary. Alai 16:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this is relevant, but I've been searching around wiki and found a few more stub articles on geographers and I think the stub now has more than 60. AlexD 17:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Impressive. Support naturally. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 19:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{NI-bio-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create template, upmerge cat.

This stub is required as currently a lot of Northern Irish biography stubs are just tagged with {{NI-stub}}. There is a {{Ireland-bio-stub}}, but there are different stubs for Ireland and Northern Ireland. Stu ’Bout ye! 21:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

  • A rough estimate of the likely population would be good before creating a separate category, but such a template at a minimum seems a good idea. Alai 02:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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Partridge Green Football Club stub

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The result of the debate was do not create.
Topic Partridge Green Football Club is under research and needs expanding. msabag 21:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced you know the purpose of this page. If you simply want tohe article expanded, stick an {{expand}} template on it. Grutness...wha? 22:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
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European political parties split

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The result of the debate was create.

Another five-page parent. Alai 00:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

65 in the United Kingdom, I thought the British system was known for the low number of political parties ????? (On the other hand, Burkina Faso was split off as well recently :) Support per nom. Valentinian (talk) 14:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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United States skyscrapers

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The result of the debate was create by region.
All that I can find in the (8 page) US-structs that's immediately viable is Category:United States skyscraper stubs. Beyond that, if we want to do anything immediately, by region is probably the only way to go. Alai 03:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I proposed a geographic split by region back in April, and it got support (albeit lukewarm), but was never acted on, nor marked in the archive as either approved or rejected. --CComMack (t&#149;c) 04:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Looked approved to me, so I assume the archival thing is just an oversight. Certainly that's not binding on what you should do... (Let's face it, in the opinion of many, the very use of this page, the waiting period, and half a dozen people yelling "noooooooo!" aren't actually binding, either...). Alai 04:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd definitely support a split by region (and state for NY and CF and any others that reach threshold). See also my suggestion about US-mast-stub above. Grutness...wha? 06:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{GuineaBissau-stub}} / Category:Guinea-Bissau stubs and {{EquatorialGuinea-stub}} / Category:Equatorial Guinea stubs and {{CapeVerde-stub}} / Category:Cape Verde stubs

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The result of the debate was create.
I meant to propose this several days ago. I actually thought I had. No worries though. Stub sense lists over 80 of these.--Thomas.macmillan 17:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support, naturally. It would make sense at this point to create templates for all remaining countries lacking same, upmerging where appropriate. Alai 18:21, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Agreed, whole heartedly. Equatorial Guinea is listed at 51, which, if i am not mistaken, is the only other African nation without a stub of its own. Note that I also added Equatorial Guinea to the proposal--Thomas.macmillan 21:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Agreed, with the usual proviso about double-stubbing geo-, bio-, etc with their regional categories (at last count they had 34 and 29 geo-stubs respectively, BTW). Grutness...wha? 23:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Add Cape Verde to Equatorial Guinea. Stub sense lists 48 non-geo stubs. Now I think this is definitely the last African nation to get a stub. Hopefully.--Thomas.macmillan 12:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Support By the same token, we might as well begin considering templates for Turkmenistan, Bahrain, Oman, and Qatar (and perhaps also East Timor), since this will cover Asia as well. Agree with the double-stubbing with -geo, -politician or similar, but I for one don't really find the -bio template to be very useful. IMHO, there is no need to have a massively sized Category:African people stubs if all countries already have national templates,. It will only clutter the article pages up to tag a page with both a national template, an {{Africa-bio-stub}} and a template showing the person's profession. It will be pretty easy determining whenever the national categories can split off a -bio child and I generally don't like stubbing pages with three templates or more. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 16:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
You of course don't necessarily need to double-tag the articles, you could create a template, feeding into both stub categories... Alai 16:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, that would certainly make the articles look less awkward. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 18:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hopefully it might also increase the consistency of stub-catting, rather than some being tagged into Category:African people stubs only, some by country, and others with both. (Though obviously it won't enure it, since there's no guarantee the template will actually be used.) Alai 18:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was create.

{{Museum-stub}} split

Category:Museum stubs is at 5 pages.

Or perhaps split by country?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Usgnus (talk • contribs) .

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Company-stub splits

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The result of the debate was create as revised by Carabinieri..

1. I would propose splitting {{Euro-company-stub}}, {{Asia-company-stub}}, {{SouthAm-company-stub}}, and {{Africa-company-stub}}; I'm sure all of those will be viable.

2.The following countries have more than sixty company-stubs according to StubSense, so I would propose stub templates and cats for them:

  • China (1335; surely too many, most of them are video games, but there are also 24 auto companies, 15 airlines, etc)
  • Denmark (81)
  • Finland (90)
  • France (362)
  • Germany (600; same as China, but I'm sure its viable)
  • Italy (180)
  • Netherlands (102)
  • New Zealand (64)
  • Poland (70)
  • Russia (108)
  • Spain (78)
  • Sweden (192)
  • Switzerland (115)
  • Philippines (62)

3. The following countries have 30-60 company-stubs so I would propose templates but no cats for them; they will feed into their respective continent-company categories:

  • Austria (35)
  • Brazil (58)
  • Ireland (30)
  • Malaysia (51)
  • Norway (52)
  • Pakistan (40)
  • Puerto Rico (32; would feed into {{US-company-stub}})
  • Saudi Arabia (36)
  • Singapore (52)
  • Ukraine (40)

4. The following company types are also viable:

--CarabinieriTTaallkk 12:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

  • oppose redirecting Puerto Rico to {{US-company-stub}}. Monni 16:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
    • It's not a redirect, from what I understand. The template {{PuertoRico-company-stub}} would feed into the category Category:United States company stubs. It wouldn't have it's own category, so it feeds into its parent, which is US in this case. ~ Amalas rawr =^_^= 16:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Puerto Rico has an agreement with United States, but it is not part of it. Some people might claim it is but unless that information is changed in Puerto Rico article, I object making any new controversial redirects. Monni 16:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
        • It's not controversial (see Category:Insular areas of the United States), and per both of the above, it's not (to be) a redirect, it's (to be) an "upmerged" template.) Alai 18:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
          • United Nations still says Puerto Rico is separate entity, so my vote stays... It doesn't even get close to 50 which could be considered borderline case. Monni 20:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
            • Some points to ponder:
              • This is a discussion, not a vote;
              • Upmerged templates have no specific size requirement, and 32 is well within the typical range for such;
              • A broad aim of WSS is to have the stub categories follow the structure of the permanent categories (squished down and occasionally sideways as required). As I mentioned above, PR is in a sub-cat (of a sub-cat of a subcat) of Category:United States. Is that also "controversial"? Is the repeated statement "unincorporated territory of the United States" in the article-space controversial? That's in the PR article, and elsewhere -- what needs to be changed to reflect this? It appears to me that on the contrary, rather sweeping changes would need to occur to affirm the opposite point of view.
              • Reference for the UN deciding that PR is (rather than should be) an independent, self-governing country? It's certainly not the situation in PR law, US federal law, or the de facto situation.
              • The company stubs are horrendously oversized, which should be our primary order of business here, rather than political sensibilities. If some some reason (that I've yet to hear) they can't be upmerged to the US type, upmerge them to a Caribbean category. Alai 21:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
                • Well... It sure looks like it is too narrow and wider scope could be better... Like everyone seems to be pointing out, it's not even a country, so why should we group it like it would be one. I've never fully supported any work of WSS or any other WikiProject because I'm all against WikiProjects. That however doesn't stop me from contributing to Wikipedia. I've changed a few stubs to wider (and better) scoping already and will continue to participate in all efforts to make the stub system more logical. Monni 21:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
                  • I was trying to appeal to the logic of the category (and consequently, stub category) system, rather than suggesting that #3 above was a WSS credo of some sort. Mind you, while Category:Puerto Rico is a subcat of Category:United States, in a fairly intuively reasonable manner (... unlike some such...), Category:Companies of Puerto Rico is currently not a subcat of Category:Companies of the United States. Which just goes to show how consistent the category system is(n't). Oh well... Alai 22:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
                    • Maybe we should propose addendum to WP:IAR, something like "Ignore All Logic"... Then we could just pretend that Puerto Rico is independent country and forget that we don't have 60 stubs for it and create own template and own category. If someone complains, we can just say that the system was in fault and we needed to use common sense to get things sorted ;). Monni 22:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
                      • Many invokers of IAR seems to be pretty much of that school of thought already: Ignore All Rationality, perhaps, or at any rate, Do What Thou Wilt. If we found another 26 stub the point would largely be moot, I suppose (in the tradition of "making things worse before they get better"). Alai 23:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
          • I too object to the Puerto Rico suggestion, but support all the others. Puerto Rico is usually grouped in other stub-sorting with Caribbean, not US, and I suspect that a caribbean-company-stub would be more than viable. Grutness...wha? 00:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd broadly support all of the above. Several of these are probably already creatable, as they appear to partly coincide with this earlier proposal. Alai 16:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I support all of the above, including the proposed Puerto Rico upmerger, which makes even more sense for corporations than in the generic case, as companies incorporated in Puerto Rico are subject to United States federal law. --CComMack (t&#149;c) 06:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

--CarabinieriTTaallkk 20:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

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Composer stubs split

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The result of the debate was create Asia-, Japan-, NorthAm-, and SouthAm-.
NOTE:THIS LIST HAS BEEN UPDATED ON AUGUST 17, 2006 22:18 UTC!

The first two votes by Alai and Usgnus were for the previous proposal which was just Canadian, Asian, South American. I have now expanded the list. Some of them you may not approve of, so I have moved the proposal back to the top so more people will take a look at it. I don't know if Australian or Middle Eastern stubs will be approved, but I'd just like to see what people will think.

While I was doing some stub-sorting in the Category:Composer stubs, I came upon a bunch of Asian, Canadian and South American composers, and I felt if we have specific stubs for European composers (continent) and from composers from individual countries, we should then definitely have the following:

NOTE2: THIS IS PART OF WIKIPROJECT COMPOSERS (SO 30 IS A GOOD AMOUNT FOR SIZE OF STUB CATEGORY.

The second proposal is that we just make a separate Eastern European Composer stubs category which would include Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Russia and Ukraine and would probably total over 200 easily. --Nishkid64 00:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC) (fixed up on 22:15 17 August 2006 (UTC))

  • Sounds like an excellent plan, then. Alai 00:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. --Usgnus 13:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC) (Copied from separate proposal, struck out here by Alai.) --Usgnus 03:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose those in the 30ish range. Just because there's a wikiproject does not mean that 30 is a "good amount" (contrary to NOTE2) for an indefinite number of repeatedly split stub sub-types, it justifies one such. To construe otherwise would be to reduce the threshold to 30 for every stub type (whereafter people would be complaining about their types with 12 stubs being deleted, as it'd be "sure to grow to 30 sooner or later"), since every stub type can ultimately be connected to some wikiproject or another. Oppose the Iberian, Scandinavian, Balkan and East European categories: these aren't standard categories (for stubs or otherwise), and if we start dividing stubs up on aribitrary subdivisions, we'll have one almighty mess. The Hungarians and Czechs would probably object to your classification, for example. Also Latin American crosses the usual continental split: would support South American composers if they're viable as such. Having both would be an especially bad idea. By all means create per-country templates (only), upmerged to Category:Composer stubs, Category:European composer stubs or Category:Asian composer stubs, until such time as they hit 60. Anything between 60 and 800 is an acceptable size for a stub type, there's no need to go to tortuous lengths to stay at the bottom end of that range (much less below). It's not necessary to move a proposal to around in the page, and it would result in chaos if everyone did it: just post the new proposal separately, linking back to the first if you want to be scrupulously helpful. If people repeatedly moved their proposals to the top of the page "so more people will take a look at it", we'd have (even more) chaos. And above all, please under no circumstances copy and paste people's signed comments from one place to another: I'm sure it's by no means what you intended, but it could be construed as misrepresenting people's opinion on matters which they have not in fact expressed a view, and whose actual views are actually quite different (as for example mine are, in this case). (Seriously, that's the sort of thing that has factored into ArbCom cases in the past.) Alai 23:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Support Asia, and Japan and Latin America, no problems there. Oppose the suggestions below 55 and strong oppose Iberia, Scandinavia, Balkan and Eastern Europe as they are not standard units and some of them poorly defined (see e.g. Talk:Scandinavia where a minor conflict is going on regarding the proper borders of this entity. I'd hate to see this problem spread.) The borders of the Balkans are not defined properly either. In the interwar years, Romania officially protested if foreign media labelled them as a Balkan country. Let's stay clear of problems like these. Valentinian (talk) 08:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I just realised I'd read Latin America as South America. The standard way to split is normally: Caribbean, Central America (everything south of Mexico) and South America. If we have enough material for any of those (c. 60 articles) I'll gladly support it. I presume that means that North America = Canada + the U.S. + Mexico. Does anybody have more information? Valentinian (talk) 16:16, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • So sorry about that, guys, but thanks for telling me for future reference =). I had seen that 30ish was a good number, supposedly, but I wasn't sure if people would approve. Also, Latin America is defined as the area of South America, Central America, Mexico, and the Caribbean islands. Ideally, I would think this would be a better category compared to just a South American composer stub. However, if people really think having a South American composer stub is necessary, what about having a North American composer stub, which would combine Canada, the islands in the Caribbean, and Mexico, and would probably easily have over 70 composers. Okay, so at the moment, the stubs in favor are Japanese composer stubs, Asian composer stubs, and Latin American composer stubs. With my new proposal, we could make a separate North American composer stub (with United States as a sub-category), and have a separate South American composer stub. I'm only proposing this because I hate to leave Canada out of the sync even though it has like 34 composer stubs, and Mexico has around 20ish, and with the inclusion of composers from the Caribbean, that stub would easily hold over 70 composers. Tell me what you guys think. --Nishkid64 13:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Future reference is good. :) Not Latin America, but both South America should be fine, and so would North America as you've just described -- support that one too. Alai 16:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Okay, so right now this is what has been supported so far: North American composer stubs which would include Canada, Mexico, Central America and Caribbean islands according to the map on the North America page. The subcat for this category would be US composer stubs. Next we have South America which just includes the whole South American continent. Then we have Asian composer stubs and the subcat to be formed would be Japanese composer stubs. Just wanted to update everyone who may see this. --Nishkid64 21:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Asia and Japanese... support South American if it also reaches 55-60 or so. I have some doubts about a North America stub which includes both Central America and the Caribbean, neither of which is in North America, so I'm neutral leaning towards oppose on that one. Regretfully oppose others for now, though do see good points in some of the other suggestions, especially the Eastern Europe one. Also I'd suggest that the Australia one would get a bit closer to target if it was for Oceania rather than just Oz. Grutness...wha? 01:35, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I don't think Oceania would even make it that much closer to target. I encounter less than 5 other composers from the areas of Oceania (all from New Zealand). --Nishkid64 01:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

On second thoughts, there may be a case to be made for splitting up European into sub-regions. It does seem to arise semi-often that {{Euro-blah-stub}} becomes oversized, with no actual country being splittable (or after the first few have been, and no more are) -- witness now large the athletes are, shortly after being created. However, if we do this, we should make very sure we scope the split by some standard, agreed and clearly-defined basis: I'd suggest we use UN subregions, as has been mooted elsewhere. OTOH, they're still not super-meaningful, so my preference would be to only do this where it's the only feasible way to split an already oversized stub type, and that we do so via per-country upmerged templates. Alai 17:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

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Split of {{UK-MP-stub}} / Category:British MP stubs

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The result of the debate was create by party.

This one is oversized and a scoping mess: the template and category both specify the (post-1801) United Kingdom, while the category name says simply British, which could stretch the scope back to 1707 or even earlier (or exclude Irish MPs from 1801-1922). What the scope of this category is (or is decided to be here) affects what the most useful split is. While a split by century is tempting, I would be more inclined to split by era (1707-1801, 1801-1922, 1922-), as it divides by specific Parliaments, and aligns with the permcats. Other alternatives include a geographic split by constituency, but this gets very sticky very quickly. --CComMack (t&#149;c) 03:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I was looking around for splits on this too, and not finding them. A split by party should be viable, but there's something deeply wonky about the data, so I can't give you solid evidence on that. Alai 04:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • IIRC Scottish MPs are already split off, so splitting off Wales, NI/Ireland and England would make sense, but beyond that splitting by era is possibly the best way to go (partyhopping makes splitting by party too messy and some parties would probably need further resplitting by era anyway). Grutness...wha? 23:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Here we go, I npw have some less duff data to work with. Pesky lack of built-in SQL transitive closure...
  • Echoing the language of the perm-parent in each case (e.g. Wales rather than Welsh, given that it's the constituency we want to split by, not the nationality of the parlicritter), but I'm open to offers on that. There also seems to be undersorting of the Scottish constituencies. NIs aren't viable yet, it seems. Alai 01:15, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Which seems to suggest that I'm almost right that some are close to splitting if worked by party. I'm still more inclined towards era, and it might solve the problem with the current SFD of {{UK-current-MP-stub}}. I like your three proposed eras, but suspect the 1922- one might still be too big - perhaps subdividing that one more would be useful, though I can't think of any big constitutional change that it could be tied to (other than Sc/Wa/NI devolution, which is far too recent). Grutness...wha? 23:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Note also that the originally proposed split does not really align with the permcats: while there's a Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Irish constituencies (1801-1922) (20 stubs) and a Category:Members of the pre-1707 English Parliament (15 stubs) (and a corresponding Scottish cat, with 0 stubs found in this stub type), there's no category for the UK&I parliament for the UK as a whole, for GB, or for E, S, W, or NI. Nor are there any cats at all specific to post-1922 parliaments. (I'm surprising there are none for specific parliments, either.) So I'm going to oppose the pre-1707 type as too small, and the post-1922 one as almost certainly much too large. (Certainly much larger than the above cats Grutness thinks biggish, I'll bet you any money for obvious reasons.) I might be persuadable as to middle one, but I'm not enthused, and I'd like to see some data (that due to the lack of a suitable perm-cat, I can't provide myself...). Alai 00:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, so the CFD ended as a delete (go figure). That disinclines me from the "era" option, and I'm still not wild about "current", so I'd be back to favouring by party. Alai 23:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{UK-hist-constituency-stub}} / Category:United Kingdom historical constituency stubs

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The result of the debate was create.

311 of these, only viable split I can immediately see to deal with 5-page parent. Alai 18:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what split is being proposed, but the logical split seems to me to be to start with the nations (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and Ireland-1801-1922). Then maybe regionalise England a bit, if needed, but regionalisation is complex because there is no widely-accepted-and-understood system of English regions. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:10, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
These would be coming from Category:United Kingdom constituency stubs and Category:United Kingdom Parliamentary constituencies (historic), if that aspect was unclear. The latter four would not currently be feasible according to my numbers, and nor even would the English regions be -- Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the North West is the largest at 55, Category:Parliamentary constituencies in Scotland (Westminster) a mere 42. Admittedly we could "split" those in Category:Parliamentary constituencies in England (422), but that would be a very big-endian way of doing things. Alai 21:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
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Native Central and South Americans

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The result of the debate was do not create.
We really, really need tags for Central and South American natives. We've already got

  • {{NorthAm-native-stub}}, so
  • {{CentAm-native-stub}} and
  • {{SouthAm-native-stub}} just seem like a logical extension. Right now I'm tagging them by country, but many people interested in native culture won't be from or interested in the modern countries where the tribes are now. Dybryd 02:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I've changed your cl's to tl's, which is what I think was wanted. I think the NorthAm tag is supposed to cover central america too; I'd certainly support a SouthAm type if there are 60 articles, otherwise upmerge to whatevertheheck the parent category for the variously named -ethno-, -native- etc types. (We should try and get these more consistent at some point.) Alai 02:30, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Support - but with the middle one as "CentralAm", not "CentAm", to be in line with other similar template names, and assuming there are enough stubs. Lumping in the North and Central ones was alway a bit dubious - there's not much connection between the Iroquois and Mixtec. Grutness...wha? 09:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I've been recently sorting American Native articles and my understanding as follows: The stub for North America Natives does NOT in the title include Central American natives. However stubs already exist as follows --- mesoamerica-stub is for Central American Natives and pre-columbian-stub is for South American Natives. Goldenrowley 01:44, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
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Animal rights

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The result of the debate was create as revised by Alai.

I would like to create a stub tag for stubs related to animal rights, as part of the new Animal rights WikiProject. We have quite a few such stubs and growing all the time. Currently, they're being tagged as British writer or American organization, or whatever. It would be useful to have them all tagged as animal rights so we can see what needs expanding. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Strangely, I can only find one stub under Category:Animal rights, but if the scope is more like Category:Animal liberation movement, this would seem to be just-about-viable at exactly 30 reported by stubsense (usual caveats about that being either an under-count or an over-count apply). Support this on the provisos that however it's scoped it turns up at least a roughly similar number, and that the name and scoping statement make this as clear as possible (as the perm cats don't, really). Alai 16:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
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Company stubs split

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The result of the debate was create.

This is our behemoth du jour (or du mois, given the frequency of the database dumps...). I float the following possibilities for your perusal:

I'm fairly sure there's significant undersorting to existing types, however: I was going to propose another four possibilities, with a potential population in the hundreds, only to find they already exist... Alai 23:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{mental-health-stub}} / Category:Mental health stubs

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The result of the debate was create.

A child of {{health-stub}} Category:Health stubs and would be new parent for {{psych-stub}} and Category:Psychology stubs.

  • 67 stubs reclassified from {{psych-stub}}
  • 1 stub reclassified from {{med-stub}}
  • 2 articles that have not yet been classified or tagged as stubs


(I have made a full list and saved it on my computer. If this passes, I will tag these 70 stubs/articles with the new classification – If I need to put the list on here, could someone tell me how to do it)


This was brought to my attention when editing my newly made Mental health professional article. Before that page was made, mental health professions were thrown all over the place, some linking to each other, some not, some contradicting, and no one had a universal place to go. The same thing goes with mental health related topics, esp mental health stubs (the articles needing the most attention by Wikipedia users). My little Mini-Mental Health Stub FAQ :)-

1. How will we classify a stub as psychology, mental health or medical? -Psychology would be something dealing specifically with psychological research -Mental health would be something dealing with identification or treatment of mental health/illness symptoms or individuals working in mental health (i.e. psychiatrists) -medical if something is health based and not dealing with MENTAL health.

2. Why not just classify everything as psychology? -If you are unfamiliar about the differences in psychiatrics and psychology, visit the article Mental health professional or [Psychiatry]] or Psychology or Clinical Psychology. Right now there are several psychiatric articles and articles touching on subjects of psychiatrics AND psychology. i.e. classifying a psychiatrist in a psychologist stub would probably make them turn in their grave :), they are two different specialties, but the term "mental health" covers both and more professions and fields.

3. Why classify psychology as a child of mental health? -see definition of psychology and clinical psychology in Wikipedia.

4. So if there is a psychology stub, and there would be a mental health stub, why not create a psychiatric or psychiatry stub? -I'm not counting that out BUT, psychiatrists ONLY deal with mental health. That's why they exist. Anything categorized under mental health stub would most likely deal with psychiatry. Psychology is a little different because although psychology is a study of mental health and more importantly behavior, they don't all specialize in the treatment of illness, etc. (clinical psychologists do, but psychologist professors wouldn't). If something has to do with psychology research and/or behavioral information, it should probably be classified as psychology. If it has to do with illness or state-of-being it should probably be mental health.

Basically I feel like this stub is badly needed. There are already a lot of (70) mental health stubs that I found in the short time I looked. Not to mention the psychology and psychiatry related topics on Wikipedia are growing rapidly, meaning there will be a lot of future new stubs in this category. Thanks for your help, I look forward to your opinions. Chupper 15:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Seems like a good plan to me. The pysch-stubs are oversized, so this seems preferable to rescoping to include -iatry as well as -ology, though the scope for confusion between the two remains due to the abbreviation. (Perhaps we should expand this once the psychiatries are weeded out.) Alai 16:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd tend to agree. Psych-stub is splittable, and this seems a logical way of doing it. If we're going to split this stub fully sometime, I'd suggest dev-psych-stub, cogni-psych-stub, percep-psych-stub, behav-psych-stub, clin-psych-stub, neuro-psych-stub and pharm-psych-stub (with better names, of course) would be worth considering as other subtypes. Grutness...wha? 23:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC) (MSc in percep-psych ;)
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Stubs for the subdivisions of Scotland

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The result of the debate was create templates, upmerge cats appropriately.

Following the creation of {{Orkney-stub}} and Category:Orkney stubs today I propose that we complete the set of the 32 council areas of Scotland, with:

Most of the proposed templates will not be big enough yet for their own category, but we can create dedicated cats as and when the need arises. --Mais oui! 09:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Tanzanian politician stubs or Category:East African politician stubs

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The result of the debate was create.

48 of the former, on double-stubbing alone; or else as a contribution towards the latter (UN def., I assume). Alai 03:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This has been mooted in the abstract for a while, so unless there any speedy holdons or objections... Alai 02:45, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

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Musician splits

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The result of the debate was create US & classical.

The musician and US- types are both huge. Some resorting to existing sub-types would help, as would:

Splitting by genre, instrument and by country is obviously going to lead to either lots of triple-stubbing (or more), or lots of inconsistent sorting, but we've already started on all three, so... Alai 02:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

comment I could support splitting by genre as I've already started sorting hip hop related musicians and bands from around 20 different categories. Sorting by country or region, or by instrument is harder but it depends on which one gives more articles per sub-category. Monni 03:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
As I say, all three axes already exist, so I'm just going with the flow, numbers-wise. Alai 04:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
support first and third for now. weak support second as parent for more specific stubs. Monni 10:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
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Category:British Columbia park stubs

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The result of the debate was create by region.
Sounds like a narrow topic? 582 stubs, and pretty much unto themselves responsible for the BC-geos being six pages. (Which is just as well, as I can't find any other viable splits (though keep an eye on them BC-mountain-stubs...)) Many of them seem to be half-line nano-stubs, it must be said. Alai 22:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

How about splitting by regional district? (BTW, Category:Greater Vancouver Regional District stubs exists; it's associated with Wikipedia:WikiProject Vancouver). --Usgnus 22:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
That's what I was expecting to find, but I didn't. I think I may have some dodgy data... The parks would take care of the current oversizedness, though, so I'm inclined just to do those in the short term. (I know it's itself a rather large type, but I'm guessing someone has mass-produced these from a list, so they're possibly exhaustive.) Alai 22:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, there are 852 provincial parks in BC (42 parks created in the last five years). Plus there are regional parks, city/municipality parks and the handful of National Parks. --Usgnus 22:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah. OK then, a couple of hundred to go then, perhaps... (These seems to be almost entirely provincial.) I've re-run the analysis, but I'm not getting anything above threshold on the districts: must be very little categorisation by those. Which isn't to say it's not possible and sensible, just not that it's at all easy. Alai 23:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd definitely prefer going by region rather than landform type. Mind you, remember we also have protected area stubs, and the idea of a British Columbia-protected-area-stub (or whatever the form would be) might alleviate the problem without having to resort to mountain-stubs and river-stubs. Grutness...wha? 00:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if they are technically protected areas: I'll ask WP:PA. I think it's clearly in the realm of "axis of split people evidently edit along", going by the WPJ and the aforementioned mass-production alone, though. Alai 01:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Protected areas of Canada seems to vaguely imply that they are such, so if the WPJ confirms, I'd be equally happy with G's suggestion. Alai 01:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
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Split of Category:Indigenous peoples of North America stubs

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The result of the debate was no consensus.
No one faint: I'm going to suggest the we split a non-oversized stub category. (And no, not because I'm running out of those...) But I notice that this is at 3 1/2 pages, and (until I simplified it) had a very tortuous template, using the US and Canadian terminology, as well as the overarching language of the category name. So if we re-categorise those that fall "neatly" within one or the other, we may be archieving both terminological as well as geographical precision and clarity, for all the obvious pitfalls of a split by modern states. Categorised (only) under Category:First Nations I count 99, and (only) under Category:Native American, I count 365, so those would both be viable. I suggest we try and make the template names more standard too (with redirects, doubtless): {{Canada-ethno-stub}} and {{US-ethno-stub}}. Alai 05:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Oh: the first is already on the approved-and-todo list! D'oh. Alai 05:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I have been sorting the native stubs and I'd have to say the category page has a ghastly long name ( Category:Indigenous peoples of North America stubs ) I'd like to see it renamed more in line with the stub itself as Category:North American Natives stubs (to go with Category:NorthAm-native-stub). I would not split it into {{Canada-ethno-stub}} and {{US-ethno-stub}} for 2 reasons - we have tons of ethnic groups in America, this stub is for the Native people specifically, and Splitting USA from Canada would be a problem for The Innuit, the Plains Indians, and other wanderer-travelles, who are in both USA and Canada that would be straddling the fence. Goldenrowley 19:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
      • You'll notice I said specifically that these would be (more than) populable on the basis of membership in one and only one of the above two hierarchies. The fence-straddlers we can leave in the parent. (Under whatever name, but note that the permanent parent is at Category:Indigenous peoples of North America, and renaming a category to suit a template (that's not itself at all systematically named) is not standard practice. The template names I'm somewhat flexible on, but some degree of horizontal consistency would be highly desirable. I'm in no particular hurry to move on this, but in a couple of hundred stub's time the matter will be more pressing, so unless another axis suggests itself... Alai 03:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Instead of USA and Canada as a splitting point, I'd personally understand Native subcategories based on cultural-natural boundaries as follows: Innuit*, Eastern, Atlantic, Plains & Mesas, Rocky Mountains, Western Pacific, and Mesoamerica*. maybe Hawaii. Maybe Carribean. Goldenrowley 03:56, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Then you'd want to start with the permanent categories, which as I mentioned above, are organised by modern statist boundaries, hence my proposal that we follow the same for the stubs. Had there been viable perm-cat-based splits along the lines you mention, I'd certainly have mentioned them. It's well known that you can't win around here on relationship between stub and permanent categories, but you really can't win, can you? Alai 04:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
        • ? I am just opposed to the original proposal to split Category:Indigenous peoples of North America stubs category in half. Because I think North America Native category is perfect as the main category, I can use it all the time, and it can grow by holding sub categories rather than splitting. Otherwise, I might be unclear what you meant to propose this week and just repeating your minor points in my own words? Goldenrowley 19:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
          • "Holding sub categories rather than splitting": I think one or more of us is confused at this point. By "split" I mean precisely (and explicitly), as I said above, the creation of addition stub types as sub-categories, not replacing it (else this would be at SFD). You've suggested that they instead be split (in the above sense) on different lines, which I pointed out was not how the permanent categories were arranged. If by the time this category is oversized, and re-proposed by splitting, the permanent categories are still organised on those lines (and only those lines), I'm highly likely to go ahead with such a split. But since it isn't currently oversized, I'm willing to wait. Alai 22:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
          • Yes I got confused sorry, there's lots of tribes on the table here. Thanks for taking time to explain to a new person. I agree with making up some sub-categories! Goldenrowley
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{{chinese-food-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create.
there are a lot of chinese food stubs, and also on the food/drink, cuisine subtubs Qrc2006 20:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{RepublicofIreland-stubs}} / Category:Republic of Ireland stubs

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The result of the debate was no consensus.
In case i missed it i did not find any Republic of Ireland stubs Briaboru

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{{US-footy-stub}} / Category:United States soccer stubs

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The result of the debate was do not create.
Not especially needed, and indeed I'm not sure it's even viable, but would at least house the seemingly soon to be evicted Category:Major League Soccer stubs, be a caring parent to Category:United States soccer biography stubs and Category:United States soccer club stubs, and otherwise plug something of a hole in the hierarchy. Plus there seem to be 27 assorted Category:Football (soccer) stubs that are also somewhere or other in the Category:United States hierarchy, so it might be worth a punt. Alai 05:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Oppose. We don't have categories for any other countries, and there's not anywhere near enough in Category:Major League Soccer stubs to prompt creation of another stub type. After all, that's one reason why it's (likely) getting deleted, no? I would be interested, however, in seeing the viability of other countries for a similar stub type. In any case though, this doesn't seem like a good way to start. --fuzzy510 05:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
    • That's 27 plus what's in MLS, plus two subcats. Whatchawant, blood? :) (There's other reasons besides size why MLS-stub's (likely) getting deleted.) If this is the structure we want, the subcats and 40ish stubs make the type worthwhile (IMO)... if it isn't, why do you want counts for other countries? Alai 05:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Because if there are other countries that would contain the requisite number, I'd say that it was a worthwhile structure, and therefore more open to the idea of creating this one, along with all of the other ones to fully create the structure. If there aren't, I'd say that it wouldn't be the best of ideas to create a slightly undersized stub type for a structure that might not really be viable. See, there is actually a method to my madness.  ;-) --fuzzy510 03:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{Warhammer-fantasy-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create.
I believe that there are enough of stubs which are about Warhammer Fantasy and that Wargames-stub is not enough. The majority of articles in Wargames-stub are already about warhammer fantasy. I think it is time to create a Warhammer-Fantasy-Stub. Arctic-Editor 11:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

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Org-stub splits

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The result of the debate was create.

The latter is on discoveries (well, a badly-named template with a redlink is, at least), and may overlap with {{charity-org-stub}}, but would in theory have a wider scope. If they're not viable separately (though they very well might be) I'd be inclined to create this anyway, and then upmerge the charities. Alai 02:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Support as per requirement in Chartered Institute of Wastes Management, International Solid Waste Association and Solid Waste Association of North America --Alex 13:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

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{{Bird-stub}} split

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The result of the debate was create those specified by Alai.
I haven't checked the counts for these stub types, but it seems to me like there might be a lot here. Keep in mind that there are a lot of bird stubs, and these are categories which have a lot of articles, probably including a lot of stubs:

Eli Falk 11:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

This looks plausible given that the parent is at about 600 - 700; however, without an estimate for each of the templates it's hard to give support or opposition. Could you get estimates please? Aelfthrytha 16:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's what I have:
Given that Category:Birds by classification is underpopulated at 466, there's a strong chance the above five would be viable, so I'll support those if anyone is willing to go on a hunt. The Falconiformes at 34, and the Coraciiformes at 33 may be a little light, so I'm not prepared to support them at present. Alai 19:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
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East and West Sussex

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The result of the debate was create.
Probably only a minor point, but when the England geo-stubs were split into ceremonial counties, East Sussex and west Sussex (two separate CCs) were left in one category with one overall sussex-geo-stub template. There are now clearly enough stubs (300 in total) for these to be broken out into their two separate categories and templates - {{EastSussex-geo-stub}} and {{WestSussex-geo-stub}} - with the deletion of the current single template (as happened with yorkshire-geo-stub early on in the England split. (Brighton and Hove, listed separately in Category:England geography stubs for no readily apparent reason, is officially in East Sussex, BTW). Grutness...wha? 00:58, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm going to assume you're not going to propose another delete-the-template-and-keep-the-category exercise, and on the proposal itself, support, of course. Alai 01:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Of course not. This time, it would be a delete for both the category and the template, since there's no point of having a template and a category for something that doesn't exist as an individual item. Yorkshire-geo-stub and its associated category were deleted with absolutely no problems, absolutely no complaints, and absolutely no confusion. There's no reason to suppose this should be any different. And it's already pretty well-known among those who use more than the cruder country-level splits that we're splitting by ceremonial county, anyway. Grutness...wha? 09:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Cross-country skiing biography stubs

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The result of the debate was create as revised.
There's easily 60 in Category:Winter sports biography stubs, which is starting to get up there in size. (I cannot, however, think of a name for the template that makes any sense, so suggestions here gladly accepted). --fuzzy510 06:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

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Canadian Ice Hockey split

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The result of the debate was create by position.
After sorting the ice hockey bios, Canada's category is left with a massive 8 pages. I'm honestly not too sure how to split this one. My first instinct says to go by position, since that's seemingly the default split in such a situation. However, I think that might be somewhat problematic. As I envision it, we'd need to work it something like the baseball bios, with a category for forwards and then individual tags for centers and wingers that served as children. However, there are a lot of articles that don't have the position indicated. In addition, there aren't any permcat splits by position, so it'd be problematic to figure out the viability.

I think that the best solution is to take advantage of the fact that there are far fewer Canadian provinces than U.S. states, and split by province. There are categories for different provincial sportspeople, and while the stubs are not all completely categorized, it'd give an idea of the viability.

I don't really care one way or another, because I'm not certain what would be the best split, but I do know that it should be split. So, opinions? --fuzzy510 05:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

From July...

See Category:Ice hockey personnel --Usgnus 06:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC) --Usgnus 06:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

  • (ec)And which do you think people (and especially professional sportspeople) change more often, their sporting role, or their physical location? I think by province is a horrible idea, for the reasons it is for almost all biographies, sorry. I'd rather see by team, by position, by decade, by league, or really, almost anything else. Unfortunately, and as you say, existing permanent categorisation doesn't seem to be great. Numerous per-team splits would be viable on that basis, but very little else. (However, the stub type has grown significantly since the last dump, so this will have to be redone after the next one -- whenever that is, it's 18 days since the last complete dump, and the process is currently idle for some unknown reason.) Surely there's a wikiproject or two we can draft in on this, though? Alai 06:08, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Like Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey :-) --Usgnus 06:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Again, I'm not really trying to campaign here, but by province isn't viable when used as a reference for place of birth? I mean, isn't that what we do for the different biography splits by country? --fuzzy510 11:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
        • That's not very intuitive, and doesn't correlate at all well to "who is likely to expand this article?", if a player is born in one province, grows up in a second, goes to college in a third, and played hockey in a further three. What we do with country-based splits is a little fuzzy as to the exact criterion, but works at least somewhat in practice on the "who's heard of this person?" principle. Alai 16:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree that province - and also team - aren't particularly good ways to split this. Players tend to move from team to team, and also from province to province. I'd favour position first, then decade - it's unlikely a player will play in more than a couple of general positions within a team, and also uunlikely that a player's career would span more than a couple of decades at the top level. it's quite feasible for them to play in several teams during that time, though, in several different provinces or states. Grutness...wha? 09:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
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{{FuturesExchange-stub}}

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The result of the debate was create template, upmerge cat.
Chicago Mercantile Exchange, Chicago Board of Trade, Eurex, International Monetary Market, New York Mercantile Exchange, BIFFEX ...

or simply go to the category Commodities Exchanges for a partial list. There are others “out there” for which no page yet exists at Wikipedia.

(At some point I may suggest changing the name of the category from Commodities to Futures Exchanges. More inclusive.)

This stub category can easily cover commodities exchanges and options exchanges, most of which seem destined to merge as the industry consolidates.

A category separate from the Stockexchange-stub is desirable, as their markets differ significantly.

Further, all of the futures exchange Wiki pages I have seen so far qualify only as stubs. – RayBirks 07:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Do you think there are currently 50-60 stubs for this? If not, a possible option (no pun intended) would be to rescope the Stock exchange stubs category to cover both types of exchange and have two separate stub templates feed into it, one for each. that way it could be easily split out later if and when there are enough. Grutness...wha? 07:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I can imagine a FinancialExchange stub that could cover all of these. There are not quite 50 stubs for the futures exchanges, but I think that is just a gap in the Wikipedia universe for now. I'm new enough that I don't quite understand about "stub templates feeding in to it" but may grasp it after sleeping on it. (It's 3 am in my time zone.) Your pointers are welcome. -- RayBirks 08:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Given the size of the Category:Financial services company stubs (see also my own suggestion), it would certainly be handy if this were feasible. Unfortunately the Category:Stock exchanges seems to be largely polluted by Category:Companies by stock exchange, and 'futures' don't really appear to figure in my analysis of that category, at least. What Grutness is suggesting is that a template -- {{exchange-stub}}, or {{financial-exchange-stub}}, let us say -- be created, but not a separate category for the time being. Instead, they'd stay in the parent category, but once a thresholdish number is reached, they can easily be reclassified just with a token node of approval, and a template edit. Alai 00:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Ah-hah: we already have a {{stockexchange-stub}}, hence the lack of those in the parent (that isn't -- I suppose not all of these are companies per se). Maybe this could be rescoped... the futures don't look likely to be viable on their own, given the size of Category:Futures exchanges. Alai 00:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I will have to research the parent/child relationship, stub vs. category relationship, and the template mechanics. These are still unclear to me. Pointers to pages for tutoring appreciated, one and all. -- Another possibility for a new stub could be FuturesIndustryStub. This would pull in the exchanges, plus all those other related folks and firms lingering in the general finance & economics categories. -- RayBirks 04:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
  • To put it simply, stub categories should bear at least a passing resemblance to non-stub ("permanent") categories. But because of the purposes stub categories have foir editors, they're only really useful if there are a reasonable number of articles for them (which is why we use a threshold of about 50-60 articles). These articles would get a stub template which automatically puts them in a connected stub category. While we're unsure that there would be 50 stubs for a separate futures exchange stub category, we could make a template for futures exchange stubs which would put the articles into the same category as stock exchange stubs. If we later find there are 50 stubs with the new template, it would be very simple to redirect the template to a new separate category, thereby moving all the articles that have that template into the new category. Hope that helps :) Grutness...wha? 06:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
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econ-stub split

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The result of the debate was create.
This is a topic on which my ignorance is much more extensive than my bank balance, so I shall present counts based on the top level subcats of Category:Economics and of Category:Finance, and hoping someone else can sort out what makes sense as a stun type, and what doesn't.

Economics:

Finance:

Doubtless overlap will mean that not all of these are simultaneously sensible, so feel free to cherry-pick. Names are also provisional, and and based directly on those of the permcats. (I'd be dubious about the one with the semicolons, at the least.) Alai 05:20, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Category:Mathematical and quantitative methods (economics) stubs. I think that a better idea would be having a Category:Econometrics stubs to cover quantitative methods, which is strongly needed. Theoretical models do not need a separate mathematics category, they can go straight into the respective subjects' categories, i.e. macroeconomics, financial market etc.
Also, IMO Category:Financial institutions and services stubs would suffice, rendering Category:Financial service stubs and Category:Financial institution stubs useless AdamSmithee 08:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the input: I didn't dig quite deep enough to get to the econometrics (the list was getting very long and false-possish, so I stopped quite "shallow"), but it looks like it would catch 71, too (I assume exactly the same ones, indeed), so I'm happy to substitute that one. I'll likewise avoid the others you mention, and if there are no countervailing opinions, make candidate lists for the remainder before populating them (or leave popoulating them to some willing volunteer, indeed...). Alai 08:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
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Software split

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The result of the debate was create.

This is a nightmarishly large stub type (12 pages), and is likely to be a pretty tangly one too. The above counts are based off the top two levels of sub-cats of Category:Software, but could be prone to much overlap and false-possing, so take with a pinch of salt until verified. There also seems to be a huge amount of undersorting to Category:Network software stubs (199 stubs, seemingly) and Category:Unix stubs (64). Alai 04:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support. --Bruce1ee 06:21, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Partial support - I've been working my way through all the stubs in Category:Software stubs (up to the T's now!) and maintaining a list to help identify possible splits. Given my observations, I think Multimedia software stubs is definitely viable and I was actually getting ready to suggest that. Music, Text Editors, Science and Business might also be viable as I've seen a reasonable number of them. I'm not convinced of the others though. Where have these numbers come from? I'm particularly interested in the UML number as I haven't seen evidence of anywhere near this number of stubs in Software stubs so far. I'm also not sure what you mean by "There also seems to be a huge amount of undersorting to Category:Network software stubs (199 stubs, seemingly)". Finally, software by company or OS would cut across the existing split by software type, so I would only do that as a last resort. --TheParanoidOne 18:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
    • The numbers are based on membership of perm-cat subtrees rooted at Category:Text editors, Category:Business software, etc, calculated from the db as dumped on the 10th. This is obviously liable to both false positives and false negatives, so if you have more accurate counts, I'm happy to defer to those. The UML ones look to be especially inaccurate, as seemingly Category:Microsoft is a subcat of Category:Unified Modeling Language -- d'oh. If you wish, I can generate and upload lists of any particular candidate you might find potentially useful (with or without tagging by the associated category they're included on the basis of). Alai 04:47, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
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TV bio split

I tell a lie, I can find some apparently viable splits in here:

I also detect what seems to be significant undersorting to US-tv-bio-stub, and to TV-actor-stub. Alai 01:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Category:Roman Catholic theology and doctrine stubs

Five-page parent, this looks like the most promising avenue of split (133 possibilities). Alai 04:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Organic compounds split

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The result of the debate was create as revised..

May be some overlap, but shouldn't be massive in any instance I can think of. Alai 03:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice setup, but I am not sure, where do I find sulfides, disulfides, nitriles, alkanes, etc. Does the above list contain all the stubs (hmm .. about, miss 31 to my counting, not considering duplicate grouping (850 vs. 881)).

One could also consider the following sectioning:

Of course this gives the same problem as above, compounds belonging in more groups (though, one could put it in one or two, and making a supercat (keep Category:Organic compound stubs) for compounds that contain more than 2 functional groups). Advantages of the first method is that people specialised in amines could just pick an amine stub, of the second is, that it is easy to extend this to the inorganic compounds:

etc. Which for the larger stub-groups can be split even further in:

etc. --Dirk Beetstra T C 19:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

    • Thanks for the input, Dirk. The above makes no attempt to be comprehensive, it's just every permanent category (including descendants) with 60 or more org-comp-stubs, filtered for anything that appeared to me to be too obviously mutually exclusive, duplicative, or tangential to primary notability. Some duplication and omission is very likely (I could uploads the lists if you wish). I didn't do the same for the inorganics simply because they're not oversized, but I could do if it's of interest. Alai 19:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
And you, thank you for this counting work! Quite a job to put things into groups!
OK, as I said, for me the first list makes sense, in that it is recognisable what is in it. And there will indeed not be many disulfide-stubs. I just counted the pages in Category:Inorganic compound stubs: 595. Seems also quite big, but for that a completely different approach may be needed. You could consider making also a cat for medicinal/pharmaceutical compound stubs (may not be big at the moment, but I am encountering quite some pharmaceuticals at the moment in my current AWB run, which are stubby, but do not carry a link/stub-mark to organic chemistry/compounds, while I expect also there to be knowledge about these.
I'll keep an eye on this, lets hear what others think of this. And drop me a line on my talk-page when I you need help taking these edits through an AWB run. --Dirk Beetstra T C 19:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Note that not only is there already a Category:Pharmacology stubs and a Category:Medical treatment stubs, the former is already oversized: see a split proposal for that, elsewhere on this page. I can only hope that the people tagging these as one as opposed to the other aren't working too much at cross-purposes... 595 is indeed quite big, and if the inorgs can be split now, it'd spare it becoming "urgent" later. However, I can't find anything feasible at the moment: closest I can see, again based on perm-cat hierarchies, would be Category:Inorganic carbon compound stubs (43), Category:Metal halide stubs (42) and Category:Chloride stubs (35). If there's undercategorisation these may be undercounts, of course, though it may simply be that there are no perm-cats that are sufficiently broad, and they'd have to be "lumped" by hand. I'd certainly be supportive of upmerged templates for undersized-but-plausible sub-types if anyone is keen to make a start on these. Alai 00:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I know the Category:Pharmacology stubs and the Category:Medical treatment stubs, but these are from the medical point of view. They contain a lot of molecules (mainly organic), but it does not make sense to make these descendants of Category:Organic compound stubs (because there is much, much more in them), therefore I would like a stub-sort that is inbetween these two.
For metals, inorganic chemists have often a metal-based speciality, i.e., people working with titanium often do not know a lot (practically) about palladium. I guess a division made by metal-grouping makes more sense there. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:42, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think I understand the intended scope then. Organic compunds with a pharmaceutical application, as a subtype of both the above? Wouldn't that be extremely large? Ideally we want somewhat smaller stub types than said ~1000 cats. :) Alai 07:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
The pharm-stub group contains many molecules, but also many not-molecules (groups of medicine types, like antiinflammatory etc.), I think that it should be possible for chemists to find these molecules (they make many of the molecules that are used as medicine). I'll try and have a look into the group, and see if I can estimate how many of the articles in that stub-group are actual molecules. So it would end up as that the three supercats Category:Organic compound stubs, Category:Inorganic compound stubs, and Category:Pharma stubs have a descendant which is Category:Pharmaceutical compound stub. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose split: The current category is certainly large, but is it too large to find stubs which are worth working on? I think not. Physchim62 (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
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Canada bio split

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The result of the debate was create all but historical figure.

Six-page parent. Alai 01:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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India bio split

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The result of the debate was create.

Another six-page parent. Alai 01:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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Australian politician stubs

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The result of the debate was create.

YA6PP. Alai 01:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Whatever we decide as to UK politician splits (party or era), this should probably go the same way. I'm a little concerned if there are six pages overall but only about 200 of them are from the main two parties! What about just an {{Australia-MP-stub}} and an {{Australia-senator-stub}}? Would those reduce things enough not to have to worry about a party-or-era split for now? Grutness...wha? 07:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Probably significant undercategorisation -- which is not entirely reasonable, after all, if there were no completeness or structural problems with these articles, they wouldn't be stubs! Under Category:Members of the Australian House of Representatives I count 63, and under Category:Members of the Australian Senate, 42: once again, one would have to suspect significant undercatting. So probably both viable, but less useful in the short term. (Isn't that also highly prone to double-stubbing?) Alai 15:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
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Australian bio stubs

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The result of the debate was create.

Guess how big this parent is? Alai 01:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

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Split of Mast-stubs

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The result of the debate was create.
While I'm undecided about whether these articles should even be in Wikipedia, there are enough of them to consider splitting the category. There are about 500 mast stubs, the vast majority of which could be split between two large groups:

It's not in the "urgent" category yet, but it would make sense to start looking at these fairly soon. Grutness...wha? 06:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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Anime/manga splits

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These currently lurk in a single 7 page category. If all else fails we could split into Category:Anime stubs and Category:Manga stubs, but as those are each likely to be huge, perhaps the following might be viable as sub-cats (or alternative splits in their own right).

I haven't double-checked the perm-cats corresponding to these to see if these are likely to be false-pos-ridden. Alai 02:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

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