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A12 - Watch This Space

We have discussed this before, but I am reasonably certain now that I will be submitting a Request for Comments to define criterion A12, articles with no text, consisting only of an infobox. The banner at the top of this page says not to propose any new criteria unless they are:

  • Objective.
  • Uncontestable.
  • Frequent.
  • Nonredundant.

I submit that articles with no text and only an infobox meet all of these criteria. The criterion is objective and nonredundant. It is obvious whether an article, in article space, has no text. If it has no text and no infobox, it is A3. It is uncontestable, because I have yet to see a single infobox-only article that had a reason to exist in that form. They are placeholders, a form of sub-stubs. They may be created so as to give the editor time to create the article, but placeholders should not be in article space. They are frequent enough, in that I see several of them in a typical week on New Page Patrol. I have two of them currently pending at Articles for Deletion. They are nonredundant because they are not the same as A1 or A3. They also do not always qualify for A7, because A7 doesn’t cover schools, products, or anything that isn’t covered by A7. The infobox does, at least often, provide enough context to pass A1. Some administrators have speedied as A1, A3, or A7, infobox-only articles that I PROD’d, and I won’t argue with that, but I don’t want to nominate something for speedy deletion that, in my opinion, doesn’t really match the criteria. So I am about to propose A12, infobox-only articles.

By the way, the heading "watch this space" is partly sarcastic because it is sometimes the content of placeholder articles (that I usually either PROD or A1 or A7). Robert McClenon (talk) 01:52, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

When I new page patrol, I sometimes see these infobox only articles. I use what's in the infobox to write a sentence or two of prose, tag it as a stub, and move on. I would probably oppose this idea. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 02:30, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I see this as belonging under CSD#A3. Only an infobox? What is the content of the infobox. It is possible for an infobox to house an A7-passing claim of notability. If the infobox is only a template holding information, that if prosified, would see the article speediable under A3, then it should be speediable under A3. No? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:10, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
User:SmokeyJoe - Maybe I miss something. A3 is no content. An infobox does have content. I agree that it is possible for an infobox to house an A7-passing credible claim of significance. It is even possible for the infobox to hold a claim of ipso facto notability, e.g., to identify the team for which a professional athlete plays. So how can an infobox be A3? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:00, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
A external link or a category tag is content, too. "No content" is shorthand for "no substantial content". VQuakr (talk) 04:03, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Not according to some admins. Some editors question deletion of pages where the only content is a repeat of the title. Legacypac (talk) 06:09, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Good. Those admins are doing their job correctly. Jclemens (talk) 08:22, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Actually, Jclemens, A3 currently applies to articles (other than disambiguation pages, redirects, or soft redirects to Wikimedia sister projects) consisting only of external links, category tags and "See also" sections, a rephrasing of the title, attempts to correspond with the person or group named by its title, a question that should have been asked at the help or reference desks, chat-like comments, template tags, and/or images. This may also apply to articles consisting entirely of the framework of the Article wizard with no additional content. So if the only content is a repeat of the title the article is subject to A3 as it now stands. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 13:18, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
But it doesn't say "the title or a rephrasing of the title", but that would be an entirely reasonable change to propose. Jclemens (talk) 17:36, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
It already says rephrasing of the title. The same as the title should qualify now. I see this in draft space, not in mainspace but I don't do a lot of NPP either. Legacypac (talk) 00:01, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
Restatement is not rephrasing, and rephrasing is not restatement. CSD criteria are as black-and-white as anything on Wikipedia ever can be, and if we want it to say "repeating or rephrasing the title", I'd support that. Jclemens (talk) 06:54, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I would support this proposal if formatted as addition to A3 (just add ", an infobox" to the list of examples of 'no content' items). As a stand alone CSD criterion, though, it is too specific. Any concerns with this proposal (such as Oiyarbepsy's above) would apply equally to a stand-alone criterion or a modification to A3, so default to the proposal that adds the fewest number of words to the policy. VQuakr (talk) 04:02, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • A3 curently says (in part): However, a very short article may be a valid stub if it has context, in which case it is not eligible for deletion under this criterion. Similarly, this criterion does not cover a page having only an infobox, unless its contents also meet another speedy deletion criterion.(emphasis added( So this is not redundant. However I think it eould be poor policy. I would favor moving such pages to draft or user space. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 04:03, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • On further thought, i definitely oppose this idea. Consider an article about a musician that consists only of an infobox. such boxes may list the bands or groups that the musician has been a member of, and may cite sources for this. According to WP:NMUSIC, a performer who has been a significant member of two or more notable bands or ensembles is considered notable. Thus an infobox may contain all the info -- fully sourced info at that -- needed for the article to pas an AfD, yet still be speedy deletable under this proposal. But is someone simply copies info from the box into a single line of prose, with zero added information, the article would not be speedy deletable, not indeed deletable at all. That is a bizarre result, and shows that this proposed criterion would be a serious mistake. (A similar situation could occur with a scientist whose info box shows that s/he has won several significant awards, or with a sports figure who has played for a national team or on the kind of top level which WP:NSPORT says normally confirs notability.) I understand that most of these infobox-only stubs are not this sort of case, and that they frustrate NPPers. But once one agrees that judgement is required, and that not all pages meeting a criterion should be deleted, then it isn't clear cut, and should not be a speedy deletion criterion. I would favor a new consensus that any infobox-ony article could be moved on sight to user or draft space, and that to move it back without fixing it would be considered disruptive. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 04:59, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps if it was moved to Draft AND subjected to AfC. Otherwise we just build the list of pretty useless abandoned pages not subject to deletion after 6 months. It should not take one drive by editor 10 seconds to create unsuitable pages and 10 minutes and multiple dedicated volunteer editors to delete it. Legacypac (talk) 06:13, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose both as a stand-alone criterion and as a change to A3. First of all, A12 makes no sense, since A3 already covers this kind of pages - just mirrored. If anything, the above-mentioned exception in A3 should be changed. However, this proposal flies directly in the face of both WP:ATD and WP:PRESERVE, both policies that - despite what some people might think - fully apply to speedy deletion as well. If the infobox contains sufficient information to write a short sentence about an otherwise non-speedyable subject, just WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM yourself instead of tagging for speedy deletion, forcing another user (admin) to do it for you. So no if the problem is merely the style of the article - i.e. content in an infobox instead of as text - that's not something deletion is for. Just think about it. If such a criterion were created, we would have to rewrite both the deletion and the editing policy and toss out that "fix the problems" stuff. I don't think (and I sincerely don't hope) that we have arrived at such a point. Regards SoWhy 07:09, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose, as information in an infobox is usually enough to pass A3. A good standard lead sentence can be assembled from the data in the infobox in almost every case, as mentioned above. But I would encourage the idea that creating such infobox-only articles is disruptive editing, and that editors who create them should be warned with formal warnings leading, eventually if they continue, to blocking. If an editor cannot be bothered to construct even a single sentence of text, or does not have sufficient knowledge of English language to do so, then they should not be editing in this encyclopedia. PamD 07:19, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per SoWhy. Jclemens (talk) 08:22, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Qualified support if we can instead make this a "criterion for speedy draftification". Articles which contain only an infobox, but in which the infobox clearly identifies a topic and that topic doesn't meet other speedy deletion criteria, shouldn't be rapid-fire deleted, because as you said, they're likely placed by editors planning to develop an article later. That's the most common definition of a draft and we ought to just move the pages into draft space and let the editor work on them in the designated place. I'm opposed to this as a speedy deletion criterion. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:28, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't think we need a new CSD criteria for drafting. If a non-admin can move but not delete, we can use G6. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:02, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Which we would need consensus for first. We just had the discussion with a user draftifying articles without consensus and it was clear that the policy currently does not allow users to move stuff into Draft-space without prior discussion or the creator's approval. WP:DRAFTIFYis pretty clear on this. Personally, I don't think it should be any different because draftifying is, despite usually done with good intentions, a form of "deletion light", seeing as drafts are removed from the public's eye and thus also from the vast majority of people who are not versed in Wikipedia's inner workings and just see that there is no article. So not only does the idea of draftifying such articles counteract the principle of WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM, it also prevents other interested editors from fixing it. This is not a discussion for WT:CSD but for VPP or WT:Drafts but I still wanted to record my objection. Regards SoWhy 15:31, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
To be honest, WP:DRAFTIFY could be one hell of a lot clearer on that : It says, 'Once in draftspace, incubated articles have the same status as other drafts' and gives three reasons this could occur: 'Articles are incubated as a result of i) a deletion discussion, ii) an undeletion request, or iii) userfication.' The last point specifically says 'An editor moves the article or userfication into draftspace'- with no qualification on any of that. I just don't see 'policy currently does not allow users to move stuff into Draft-space without prior discussion or the creator's approval' in there at all- almost the opposite, surely. — fortunavelut luna 16:07, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
Actually, WP:DRAFTIFY points to WP:USERFY in that last part which says "Userfication of an article will effectively amount to deletion of an article, as in general, the redirect left behind will be speedily deleted. Userfication should not be used as a substitute for regular deletion processes. Except for self-userfying and obvious non articles such as accidentally-created user pages in the main namespace, it is generally inappropriate to userfy an article without a deletion process. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion (AfD) is recommended for this since, unlike proposed deletion or speedy deletion, the community often recommends alternate remedies such as userfication during AfD." (WP:USERFY#NO #3). Personally, I never thought userfication can happen without consent or discussion for exactly these reasons. Regards SoWhy 16:29, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
User:SoWhy, you appear to have not noticed the moved sands, including in the above thread Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#G13_of_userspace_drafts_with_afc_template_applied_by_another_user, where it is evidently accepted that unilaterally draftification is a normal process of New Page Reviewing. In that thread, despite it being clear that draftified AfC tagged pages are on the six month road to G13 auto-deletion, User:Czar "I don't see how anyone would construe that page's move as deletion" denies draftification as defacto unilateral deletion, as does User:Robert McClenon at User_talk:Robert_McClenon/Archive_17#Guidelines_for_draftification. The practice of unilateral draftification, scripted is alive and well, with documentation of the practice at Wikipedia:Drafts#Incubation severely lagging. I am trying to document current accepted practice, see Wikipedia_talk:New_pages_patrol#Clarification_and_guidance_for_draftification. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:46, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
Of course- after an hour's ceaseless searching I realise the importance of definition: I was refering, of course, to the kind of 'articles' which I regularly draftify, usually with the edit-summary 'clearly not ready for A-space' or somesuch. That's usually because there's something that indicates it is intended to be an article (a lede, e.g.) but incomplete. Rather than articles that are published but are eventually deletable under criteria. This is really interesting. — fortunavelut luna 17:10, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
The problem with that is that it only really works in the rather Utopian and idyllic world in which all NPP taggers understand the deletion policies perfectly and all tagging is 100% correct. Since even a wrongly placed CSD tag can upset a new editor, I do sometimes move new articles into draft space (with AfC) where the subject can be worked on at a more leisurely pace than mainspace without the threat (emphasis mine) of deletion. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:36, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
That's all well and fine but the last RfC about this (which SmokeyJoe links to in the discussion he refers to) explicitly closed as "no consensus", so all this might be done by many editors but it's not an accepted standard. Since unilateral draftifying is basically deletion without discussion for the reasons mentioned above, I think we should have a very thorough discussion first and establish clear consensus before advising NPPs to do it. If this is to become the standard we want to use, the deletion policy has to be changed to address this. But this is not the right forum (and neither is WT:NPP). Regards SoWhy 06:44, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
I agree User:SoWhy. I agree that it is a backdoor unwatched deletion method without criteria and barely any documentation. I note that User:Kudpung added the encouragement 20:43, 16 October 2016, months after the Jan-March 2016 RfC, and that User:Kudpung did not participate in that RfC. Neither did he particupate in the later Wikipedia_talk:Drafts/Archive_6#Clarification_over_main-space_to_draft-space_moves that backed the current version of Wikipedia:Drafts#Incubation which removed reference to unilateral draftification. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:18, 5 July 2017 (UTC) Wikipedia:Drafts#Incubation was settled 14 October 2016 by User:SilkTorkdiff. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:23, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
And for measure, I disagree. The whole point of "no consensus" is that one is not restricted from doing what one thinks is best for the project, and typical editor patterns drive the "accepted standard". New users need help with drafts, not to have them tagged and forgotten or lie fallow without basic, reliable sourcing. And this thread is absolutely the wrong forum for its discussion. czar 17:22, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, Czar. Your position is clear. Also defensible, and matches current practice. SoWhy appears to be unaware of current practice. Anyone objecting should speak up promptly at WT:NPP. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:13, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose as this gives NPP carte blanche to delete things that users are half-way through writing. If you really can't abide an article with just an infobox in mainspace, move it to draft instead. I strongly endorse SoWhy's position on this, and furthermore lament that over the last ten years, the WP:SOFIXIT attitude has given away to button-pushers who can't explain themselves out of a situation. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:50, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. It's surprisingly common for new editors to write the infobox first, and it's disturbingly common for feral users to immediately tag such articles-in-progress for deletion. User:Ritchie333 makes the essential point quite well. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 17:09, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Qualified support I would support adding this to A1, and not as a separate criterion, but only with an explicit time threshold of 48 hours (or more) since creation--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:20, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. If the infobox contains sufficient information that it meets none of A1, A3 or A7 and A10 doesn't apply then there is enough information to write at least a stub (which the author may currently be doing). We want such articles to be created, not speedily deleted. Thryduulf (talk) 00:33, 6 July 2017 (UTC)a
  • Strong oppose. To follow Thryduulf points, we need to become a little less narrow minded on the ways to create new users and new high quality articles. WP is a lot more unfriendly place for a potential editor to break into than a decade age, The infobox comes at the top of the article so to an academic looking at a similar article, that is the bit you master first, and you leave the text to generate ts self. That raises two further questions- why don't we have a bot to do just that? Some users find the welcome messages we send intimidating. A infobox only article could be used as a trigger to send a focused welcome message to the user- or, if she/he was an ip write a what do we do next on the article talk page. Why not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClemRutter (talk • contribs) 08:04, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes, @ClemRutter: on the first occasion an editor creates an infobox-only article, it's an opportunity for education, pointing out the importance of at minimum a lead sentence for search results and link hovering (accessibility too, I guess). Perhaps we need a tailored Welcome Message or similar. But if the same editor creates such articles again and again, perhaps as a lazy way to boost their article creation count, we should start to consider is as disruptive editing and give escalating warnings. PamD 09:35, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose If it does not meet any other CSD this should not be a reason on its own for a speedy deletion. We don't speedy delete stubs about notable subjects even if they are unsourced. If that same information is created instead inside of an infobox and the subject does meet our notability criteria it does not seem to be consequent to allow speedy deletion just due of its format. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 22:40, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
  • These used to be deleteable, both by A3's letter and spirit as it was originally passed. The exception for infoboxes was unilaterally carved out in April 2008 by Od Mishehu; and while I see no discussion of it on a quick skim through the contemporaneous talk archive, I've never really seen a reason to object to it. Most of these are still deletable for insufficient context or no assertion of significance anyway. —Cryptic 01:56, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - A1/A3 are designed for "articles" which have no basis for giving the reader any information about the subject; A7/A9/A11 are designed to fight the mass creation of non-notable topics and prevent it from flooding AFD. I believe that any user should oppose delting and articvle with just an infobox if the content from that infobox would be good enough for a stub they would oppose deleting. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 03:49, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose instead just expand it with a lede sentence. If there is no claim of importance, then A7 applies, and if you can't workout what it is then delete for no-context. We don't need an A12 for this. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:17, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

rehashing a perennial issue-- G5

I dislike <<euphemism for stronger expression>> WP:CSD#G5.Looking for a way to bring these back--> Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virginia's 31st House of Delegates district. Dlohcierekim (talk) 18:26, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

User:Innisfree987 is creating articles on all of the Virginia legislative districts. Maybe that will take care of this. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. Consensus was clearly to keep them until it was revealed they were created by a banned sock. I could have improved them (and saved them from G5) if I had time before they were speedied, but I didn't. I probably will over the weekend, and could have done so then, but they're already gone. And it's a shame. Smartyllama (talk) 18:38, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
One alternative would be for me to salvage the content and recreate under my own name? Or restore versions not edited by the banned user? (Who turns out to be a sock of User:N I H I L I S T I C. One of the lot had been previously deleted on that basis.) Dlohcierekim (talk) 18:42, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be a violation of the Creative Commons License if you put it under your own name, though? I thought about asking to do that, then decided it would violate the CCL and decided not to. Smartyllama (talk) 18:43, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Indeed. You should have seen my mouth drop open when the user immediately recreated the article she had tagged for G5. She had, of course reworded. We have many smart people that watch this board, and I'm sure this has come up before.Dlohcierekim (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
I suppose you could always open a DRV on your own deletion. I suspect that would be the bureaucratically "correct" way to go about things. At least that way it could take some of heat off you for unilaterally WP:IARing the living shit out of U5. But SL is correct, if they are restored, we need the revision history and not just the content. Admittedly it would be a fairly IAR application of DRV, but at least it would be more of a community decision. TimothyJosephWood 18:52, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Just an aside: With respect to recentism--if one is going to start an article on an election district, it is the reasonable and almost universal approach to add the most recent election, and then either add material backwards in time or hope people add the earlier material. They can more readily do it if the framework is there DGG ( talk ) 00:45, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't like G5, but I don't like sock puppetry even more. The content in most of those article was heavily biased toward WP:RECENTISM. I don't think it would be especially difficult to recreate them, but this time with appropriate content and, you know, sources.- MrX 21:24, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Late to conversation but indeed as Robert just mentioned, I am in the midst of working on them and it would be a dream if someone wanted to restore these--I'd love to spend the time actually improving the entries rather than setting up the stubs. There are still four dozen missing from the House of Delegates and it's pretty tedious work. That said, I understand the constraints in dealing with sockpuppetry and CCL... Not sure what to propose. (To be honest even in the ones that remain I have noticed some, well, quacking, but SPI is not at all my expertise so I've hesitated to report.) Suggestions on how to proceed, or anyone who wants to hop in and start fleshing out of my stubs very welcome! Innisfree987 (talk) 03:59, 1 July 2017 (UTC) (Heck, if there's someone who'd be motivated to do these for DYKs or whathaveyou, please feel free to ping me and I'll stop with my creations and just follow along behind you adding where I can! Innisfree987 (talk) 04:26, 1 July 2017 (UTC))
Well G5 deletion is supposed to be uncontroversial. If it is controversial, then it does not have to be deleted, and could also be speedily reversed if it is controversial. If someone wants to add content or take responsibility for the G5'd article then you should be able to have it back. In socking cases I suppose we have to make sure that the requestor is not the socker. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 05:29, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. But this depends somewhat on the nature of the socking as well. DGG ( talk ) 00:45, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
Just an aside: With respect to recentism--if one is going to start an article on an election district, it is the reasonable and almost universal approach to add the most recent election, and then either add material backwards in time or hope people add the earlier material. They can more readily do it if the framework is there DGG ( talk ) 00:45, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Electorial districts are pretty much automatically notable so regardless of who created the pages, it should be ok to restore if an active editor wants to work on them. Not every creation by a sock is useless. Legacypac (talk) 22:45, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Legacypac just above, in this case restore as pretty clearly notable and beneficial to the project. Personally i would repeal G5 root and branch. A valid article is a valid article no matter who made it, and deleting it under G5 strikes me as no more than vandalism by consensus. I don't act on G5 speedys. But G5 does ahve consensu, and i don't expect to change that. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 01:18, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Any update on this? The discussion seems to have fizzled out, and I'd like to see these articles restored, as would most people, it seems. What are the appropriate next steps? Smartyllama (talk) 12:42, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I have opened a DRV here as suggested above, to avoid any admin having to make this decision unilaterally. Smartyllama (talk) 12:59, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
@DESiegel: Do you mean restore the not banned edits, or just recreate the content w/o deleted edit history? Of course, there is issue of using someone's work w/o attribution.Dlohcierekim (talk) 18:13, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I suppose I mean restoring all edits except those by the banned user, and then editing further so that there is no question but that there have been significant contributions by an un-banned user. But I'd want to review the policy to see exactly what it says first. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 18:47, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
If attribution is needed then the banned user contribution has to be included, else its a copyright infringement. However, there are other ways to give credit, such as via an edit summary, or on the talk page. So history is not always required. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:20, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Proposal to mark X2 as historical

Per consensus, X2 applies only to the <3,700 articles listed at WP:CXT/PTR. Per more recent consensus, we now intend to mass-draftify those that have not yet been reviewed; which means that X2 has served its purpose. I therefore recommend that X2 should be marked as historical. As this is a substantial modification to a CSD, I believe that strictly speaking, correct process would be for me to begin a RfC to achieve it. This is a laborious and time-consuming exercise. X2 was implemented without a full RfC, so I propose to repeal it without one. Any editor who objects to this is respectfully invited to say so below.—S Marshall T/C 00:37, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Support Marking as Historical I think we need a much more widespread consensus to enact a new CSD than to mark historical one that has served its purpose. Jclemens (talk) 01:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Support once the articles are actually draftified, Oppose until then as slightly premature. Totally agree that a discussion of this type is appropriate to repeal a X-series CSD criterion, and a RFC is overkill. Tazerdadog (talk) 04:50, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Query to Tazerdadog: Re the list of CXT articles, you said at AN on 8 May The delete list will be moved to draft space (or subpages of Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/CXT/Pages to review), where it will be audited briefly just to make sure nobody made a systematic error, then deleted. Is this still the plan and if so, won't X2 be wanted as the deletion criterion?: Noyster (talk), 08:11, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't want this discussion to be closed until after that has happened. I was envisaging a longish (28-day?) discussion here, which while falling short of a full RfC would still ensure that everyone gets a chance to have their say.—S Marshall T/C 09:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
That is still the plan to my knowledge, but I want to ensure it actually happens before we get rid of X2. Tazerdadog (talk) 17:50, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

G5 and Twinkle Question

I have a question about tagging a page as G5. G5 only really applies to pages that were created by sockpuppets of blocked or banned users (since banned users are blocked and since blocked accounts can't edit). I see that the Twinkle template lists the SPI for the master account from the field where the reviewer entered the name of the master account. My question is: Does Twinkle actually create a new SPI if none exists, or is it still the responsibility of the reviewer to create the SPI? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

A user need not be blocked to be banned. An editor with a topic ban from American politics post 1932 who creates an article on a local politician active since then is in violation of his ban. --Izno (talk) 15:15, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Okay. That is true; I had overlooked the possibility of a topic ban. But my question is the same. The template does look for whether there is an SPI, and, if so, it links to it. As you point out, sockpuppetry is not the only situation, but it still is a common one. My question is: Does Twinkle create the SPI if I enter the name of the master account, or do I have to do that? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:40, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
You might get a quicker answer at WT:TWINKLE. (I don't know.) --Izno (talk) 20:18, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
(You can always try it out and then revert yourself if it works the way you think it might.) --Izno (talk) 20:18, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
I'd be surprised if TWINKLE created the SPI in this situation - for a start there wouldn't be any way for you to list the sockpuppets of the master account or any supporting evidence. TWINKLE does have a separate tool for creating SPIs. Hut 8.5 20:31, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Hmmm. I suppose that tool would be via the ARV tab, which is the various ways to report the offending account. I mostly use it to go to UAA and sometimes to AIV. I will check it to see if it will take me to SPI also. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

G4 on Drafts

I have a question about G4 and Articles for Creation. Sometimes I move a sandbox draft that has been submitted to AFC into draft space, and then the AFC script shows that it was previously deleted in article space. This is only relevant if it was deleted via Articles for Deletion. (If it was previously speedied or PROD'd, then, of course, the reviewer simply reviews it de novo.) The question is under what circumstances is it reasonable to tag the draft for deletion as WP:G4? Perhaps more generally, is G4 meant to apply to drafts, and should the instructions on G4 say something about whether it is meant to apply to drafts? G4 is definitely meant to deal with tendentious reposts of the original article. Applying G4 strictly to drafts of the deleted article would interfere with attempts to improve on the deleted article and so cure whatever the reason had been for the original deletion. One of the problems with G4 is that the person nominating the page for G4 may or may not have seen the original, and, if not an administrator, cannot see the original. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Just as a comment, not directly related to my question, I sometimes have to ask the submitter of a draft to request to have the original article restored, either temporarily or in draft space or in email, so that I can see whether they have improved it since it was deleted. Usually they don't do that, and were just trying to game the system. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:00, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

It's worded slightly ambiguously I think: content that has been moved to user space or converted to a draft for explicit improvement (but not simply to circumvent Wikipedia's deletion policy). I have highlighted in bold what I think is the operative, differentiating phrase; the question, of course, then probably becomes how we judge if this has clearly happened :) But either way, I think, simplistiaclly, that it has been moved to draft in good faith, or as a result of a discussion, etc, then G4 shouldn't apply. But if someone's just recreated the deleted article without discussion, then I think that's circumventing the original XfD. Thoughts? — fortunavelut luna 17:09, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
This is a question that sometimes comes up at Deletion review. We generally take the view that G4 is appropriate if there are no new sources. If the sources at the AfC draft are identical to the sources considered at AfD then AfD's decision should normally stand; but if the draft-writer is presenting new sources for consideration, then at that point we would need a new AfD. I do not think that G4 would normally apply to drafts if the drafting editor is in good standing. It would apply to sockpuppets etc.—S Marshall T/C 17:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

It's frustrating that non-admin reviewers can't see deleted pages. G4 is a General criteria that applies to Draft and User spaces. If topic X is deleted in mainspace and recreated as a Draft G4 applies. You can guess pretty accurately if the page is a recreation, and I see no issue requesting a G4 so an Admin can assess fhe deleted vs new. If it's different there is no shame in the decline. If accepted, you just saved a bunch of reviewer time. Legacypac (talk) 17:21, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Yep, currently agreeing with @S Marshall and Legacypac: on this. — fortunavelut luna 17:28, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

@S Marshall:. Most AfC submitters are new accounts (which may or may not be truly new editors) so your "good standing" comment seems a little off target. In many cases 'New User' posts a fully formed page just like the one deleted before. Just saw it happen again. Legacypac (talk) 17:40, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll give a bit of a contrarian answer: G4 predates draftspace and should not apply at all to it. It's NOINDEX'ed on purpose, and if an editor in good standing wants to work on anything not subject to any other speedy deletion criteria in draftspace, then G4 should not be applied. That is, if it's attack, promotional, or copyvio, nuke it out of draft space with G10-12 respectively, but otherwise just let it go. Jclemens (talk) 00:09, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
That sounds right to me. G4 should not apply to draft space. I would think that it also should not apply to user space, which can be used as a form of draft space. Applying G4 to draft space interferes with trying to make a bad article good. A draft still should not be accepted after it was deleted unless there is progress, but the draft shouldn't be speedied just because it is the same as the deleted draft. Taken literally, G4 would prevent un-deleting the deleted article to draft space. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:41, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
  • G4 should be applied where the deletion discussion found consensus to delete, for the namespace it was located, if the content is substantially the same, no new sources indicating substantially the same. An article deleted by AfD should be G4-ed if it reappears in mainspace. An inappropriate essay deleted from project space, by MfD, should be G4-ed if it appears again in Project Space. If XfD-ed from userpapce, it should be G4-ed on reappearance in userspace. A draft in draftspace deleted at MfD should be G4-ed if it reappears in draftspace. A page in draftspace should not be G4-ed due to an AfD deletion from mainspace. Deletion criteria are difference in different namespaces. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:32, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Mostly yes. I see the point that if a draft is deleted at MFD it should be G4d if it reappears in draft space. That depends on the circumstances of the deletion of the draft. The deletion of an article from mainspace is a judgment on its content, that it didn't belong in mainspace, either because it wasn't notable or for some other reason. (E.g., that it is an opinion piece. The deletion of a draft from draft space is a more complex thing. It is typically a judgment on its author or on the process of editing it. The author may be resubmitting it tendentiously, and the issue isn't so much that the subject will never be notable, as that the nuisance of the resubmits aren't worth it. The author may have been indeffed either as a sockpuppet or as not here to contribute. I agree that a page in draftspace should not be G4d due to an AFD deletion from mainspace. A page that was deleted from draftspace should definitely be deleted if it appears in mainspace (but it is likely to be a candidate for A7 or G11). Robert McClenon (talk) 15:19, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
    • Good point, I agree. If MfD'ed from Draft, then G4 absolutely should apply to future unchanged drafts. Jclemens (talk) 04:40, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
      • I added "re-posted in the same namespace[discuss]" to the first line on G4. Five words, is that uncreepy enough for what looks like a good question to clarify? Deleted in mainspace, it may be draftified or usserfied (preferably by admin, not by copy-paste from a save furing the AfD). Deleted in draftspace, reposted in mainspace? Draftspace MfD deletions are usually speediable under a CSD#A* criterion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
        • And I've removed it. G4 already says, in the very next sentence, that it doesn't apply to material converted to a draft. (Contrast with the userspace exception, which says "moved".) If there's an admin who's speedying drafts solely because the same subject was previously deleted in mainspace, that's an issue with him not following policy, not with policy not repeating itself over and over. —Cryptic 05:43, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
        • (ec) User:Cryptic promptly reverted. I don't think that he appreciates the word "explicit", nor that the second sentence is wordy and clumsy, explicitly addressing moved pages (userfied or draftified) and this not applicable to reposts. I call it a bad revert, the addition was good, the next sentence would be better cut as redundant to the clearly more concise addition. If a topic is deleted at AfD, and then is later reposted in draftspace with the same references, it should not be G4-ed. If unimproved and then abandoned, then WP:UP#COPIES will apply, which in some cases should be speediable. G4 only applies unambiguously and immediately if the recreation is in the same namespace. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:51, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Useless image files

I was surveying to which category would belong those files that are unused and are useless for encyclopedic articles. I found F10 to be the closest existing category to them. If there would be no opposition, we could extend the coverage of F10 by giving the main focus to useless-ness fact of the file content:

F10. Useless or non-media files : This criterion is meant for files that are not used in any article; and have no foreseeable placement in an article (such as the files that are neither image, sound, nor video files; or the personal images of the contributors).

Alfa80 (talk) 04:47, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Some such files would be suitable for Commons where files do not have to be encyclopedic. See Commons:Scope. Thincat (talk) 06:45, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Agree. Non-used files with appropriate licenses should just be transferred to Commons instead. Regards SoWhy 07:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments @SoWhy and Thincat: So we would come to something like this:

F10. Useless or non-media files : This criterion is meant for files that are not used in any wikimedia projects; and have no foreseeable educational usage.

Alfa80 (talk) 08:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I still oppose this as too subjective. They don't even speedy delete these at Commons, where this rationale for deletion is much (much!) more frequent. We have the speedy deletion exception for non-images/sounds/videos because these files are encyclopedically useful so rarely as a class, and another as part of F5 for non-free files; but even in the latter case, there's a one-week timeout unless there's an accompanying article deletion. There's too much potential for error by extending the criterion to all files, and since you can prod them now for any reason and see them deleted in a week, too little to gain. —Cryptic 19:52, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

What is the practical meaning of "credible claim of significance"?

Reccently, I nominated an article Kumobius for deletion under WP:CSD#A7 because the article contained no "credible claim of significance". The speedy deletion was declined because (the subject) "has one game with an article". This seems like a rather strained interpretation of the speedy deletion policy, and given the large amount of spam that makes its way into the encyclopedia daily, seems to work against our collective best interests. I would like to get other's comments on this, at least so that I can determine if I need to recalibrate my approach to reviewing new articles. Should more of these types of article be sent to AfD, instead of being speedily deleted?- MrX 17:06, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

See User:Ritchie333/Plain and simple guide to A7 where I basically dismiss the terms "significance" and "notability" as they confuse so many people because of their subjectivity. In this specific example, you can (at least in my opinion) at least reduce the page to #REDIRECT [[Duet (video game)]] (and be on reasonable ground that won't be challenged). Since that doesn't require the administrator toolset, immediate deletion is not necessary. It's possible you have a walled garden where the target article isn't actually notable either, but I'm going to AGF that it's not the case here since an administrator wrote it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
The issue I have is that the policy says "credible claim of significance" not "six degrees of separation from possible inherited notability". It seems like your (Ritchie333) bar for speedy deletion is higher than what I see for most other admins (one exception that comes to mind is SoWhy, who has their own essay).- MrX 17:34, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
What is the practical meaning of "credible claim of significance"? I've been asking myself that question for the best part of 2 years, and, using the essays and whatnot, thought I had it answered. But the sad reality was that I was going backwards at warp speed , and now have no clue what it means. For what it's worth, I also have my own essay on the subject. Adam9007 (talk) 17:39, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Well, since there was an RFC (linked to from WP:CCSI) that said that a strong connection to a notable subject indicates significance, the bar Ritchie uses is actually consensus. Remember, ineligibility for speedy deletion does not mean it should be kept. Oftentimes they are cases of WP:ATD. But ATD is also a policy that does apply to speedy deletion, which many NP patrollers seem to forget. Take your example: Why should this article be deleted instead of merging or redirecting to the game's article? Regards SoWhy 18:11, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
OK, but let's be honest: 6 out of 9 is a pretty weak consensus. Redirecting in the example I cited is one possible action, but not necessarily optimal. I would assume it's fairly unlikely that someone wanting to read an article about a video game would type the name of the non-notable company into the search box.- MrX 19:02, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
"Unlikely" is something of a judgment call, isn't it? Why wouldn't they? And moreover, how does deletion benefit the project but merging/redirecting does not? Regards SoWhy 19:48, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Could I offer a slightly different perspective? People entering that company name into the search box aren't "typing the name of a non-notable company", they are most likely entering the company name hoping to be told/reminded what the company does. Their likelihood of making that search isn't strongly affected by WP:GNG. So it seems to me that being directed to an article about a notable product , which even mentions the publishing company, is preferable to the "not found" message in this and similar cases. Newimpartial (talk) 19:52, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
@SoWhy. Yes. Deletion discourages re-creation. New users frequently simply revert redirects restoring the original bad content. This is very common with articles about future sports events, soon-to-be-released-on-iTunes songs, and promotional bios. - MrX 19:57, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Let's not get too elitist when we're calling stuff 'bad content' here. There are really three types of bad conent: attack, copyvio, and promotion. Everything else is, at worse, unencyclopedic: something that if we could ever finish Wikipedia (we can't), wouldn't be included. Future sports events aren't actually *bad* content, even if we really don't need them. Jclemens (talk) 21:31, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
I guess we'll have to disagree then. I think a page about something that won't happen until next year (sometimes even later) consisting solely of flag icons and empty stats tables is worthless. By the way, attack articles are rare, while spam articles are so common that I'm not sure we're not drowning in them. YMMV.- MrX 22:16, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Let's take the 2032 Summer Olympics as an example. I don't think anyone would argue that - unless Wikipedia or the IOC disappears in the next 15 years - this topic will eventually merit an article. How much effort is it really worth to prevent this article from being created "prematurely" (especially when there is no agreement what "premature" means in this case)? I would argue that, in this particular case, a truly unnecessary amount of effort has already gone into making sure the article was not created "too soon". Newimpartial (talk) 22:27, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it will eventually merit an article, but not now. Common sense would suggest salting the article after about the third time it was created. Also WP:WHYN.- MrX 12:39, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Sure, but that isn't my point. I am pointing to the huge amount of effort that has already into a tug of war about when the article should be created - a tug of war which is not, in fact, finished. Surely there is a better solution than having setting para-official patrollers against grass-roots article creators in a kind of poorly structured cage match. Newimpartial (talk) 12:53, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
  • My only comment here is that while I actually agree with Ritchie333 and SoWhy in principle here re: redirection, the only area where I would like to request caution from them on this is in regards to BLPs and the INVALIDBIO interpretation that favours liberal use of redirects to relatives. I get that it is a plausible reading of ATD-R, so A7 should not apply, but I also think that there are valid reasons to prefer deletion to redirection on most BLPs (Ryan Channing being an extreme of when I think redirection would have been particularly harmful on this scale, and Valerie Sununu being an example of one where redirection makes sense). I don't nominate them for A7 at all anymore, but I think that BLPs at least deserve AfD where you are going to get more eyes on the subject rather than a unilateral redirect and a sparsely attended RfD (if it happens at all). TonyBallioni (talk) 18:44, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
My neighbour has a Grammy and doesn't qualify for an article because most of his work was pre-internet and today he avoids attention. He has hundreds of newspaper clippings and magazine covers in his house, but that was pre-internet. Contrast that with today's artists, where everything is digital. It is far easier to be have verifiable online resources to qualify for an article today than if you were famous in the past. You can even look at the articles themselves. Newer stars have huge articles compared to older stars, because people update articles everyday based on the news that comes out every day vs having a look back at an artist from 50 years ago and writing a few sentences about their entire life.
And what does that have to do with Speedy Deletion? --- With more than 5million articles on En:WP (including silly stuff like "lists of lists"), maybe WP needs to rethink some of their policies based on the changing environment. That is why only 3% of my AfD votes are to keep the article. Kellymoat (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
But @Kellymoat: resources don't have to be online: newspaper cuttings (if they have the newspaper title, date, preferably page) are perfectly valid sources. An article could be written based on them, by someone who didn't have COI. There'd be a mention of him at https://www.grammy.com/grammys/awards too. PamD 22:53, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
I didn't mean to imply that he has zero online mentions. In fact, his name is listed in the content of many WP articles (which, of course, leads to circular hits). I was simply saying, that in comparison to a modern artist, a nobody in the digital age gets far more online hits than accomplished performers from the pre-internet era. My late ex, also retired pre-internet and withdrew from public life, has a stub article. Was inducted into the "Hall of Fame" of two separate organizations. Yet, some of the "extras" on modern films get more press and have larger articles. Kellymoat (talk) 14:51, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

Exempt Draft space from G2 (test edits)

G2 Test edits does not apply to pages in User space. At the time this was created, there was no such thing as draft space. Now there is, and most of the reasons for exempting userspace from G2 also apply to Draft space. Initial attempts at a draft may well look like tests, and new users who have been told to start in draft space may do traditional sorts of tests there. Such pages harm nothing, and may, in the first case, eventually be beneficial. Pages can still be Deleted from draft space by MfD, but speedy deletion is for uncontroversial clearcut cases, and "test" pages in draft space are not always clear cut. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 01:40, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Leave that to patrolling CSD admin discretion - blatant tests certainly could occur in that name space. — xaosflux Talk 01:48, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
Tests do occur in Draft space. No one is targeting test edits in the first hours or days of a Draft's life but if it does not progresses beyond a few words or an info box or a single ref after a few months it's just testing. I recently CSD G2 a long list of pages were the content was just a repeat of the title. Do we want to tie up MfD over Draft:Joe Smith content Joe Smith. Legacypac (talk) 02:04, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
I think what we mostly want to do is nothing, leave such pages untouced. In those few cases where there is actually a serious issue requiring deletion, MfD will do the job. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 02:44, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
If we want to delete these, then I disagree that bringing them to MFD is a good idea. Wiki maintenance only makes sense if it's less effort to remove bad content than to produce it - productive volunteers are rare, and clueless and/or malicious users numerous.
Slapping a {{db-test}} or a {{db-g6}} on these when the letter of the criteria don't begin to apply is a bad idea, too. If you want an admin to IAR delete something, then you write {{delete}} on it and leave it at that. If you think IAR speedies are icky, I agree, and we should work out criteria that apply specifically to drafts and user drafts. (I continue to believe transplanting the major articlespace ones, A1 A3 A7 A9 A11, with an added requirement that the authors haven't edited in X amount of time, is the way to go.) —Cryptic 05:05, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm unconvinced that we've needed the criterion at all since around 2003. Unless you interpret it so broadly as to consider someone saying, "Hey, can I start an article about this subject on Wikipedia without anybody deleting it?" a test - which is really the only rationale I can think of for at least three quarters of the G2 tags I see - actual, unambiguous testing can be speedied as patent nonsense. People don't write articles saying things like "Will this really show up if I click save?" anymore; they mash the '''Bold text''' and <gallery>Example.jpg|Caption1 Example.jpg|Caption2</gallery> buttons. Anything less blatant than that is more likely to be an error on the tagger's or deleter's part than to be an actual test, like at the draft currently at DRV which prompted this. —Cryptic 02:30, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
    • I thought a lot of G2 deletions in ProjectSpace and MainSpace were pretty uncontroversial deletions. I saw a lot of G2 deletions by Legacypac of draftspace AfC submissions with no content not even a meaningful page title. I guess we could and should ask Legacypac to not G2 anything with a reference. Draft:Hopf algebra of a graph has a pretty useless reference for others to pick up and run with, I would suggest userfying a page like that. Not that it was created by a serious contributor. I worry more about too much stuff being improperly deleted via G6. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:54, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
      • Meh, the Hopf algebra draft is harmless. About the most annoying thing about it is that, when admins pull the trigger on this and his other similar drafts, its author prefers to drag their name through the mud for a week at DRV instead of instantly getting the draft back at WP:REFUND.
        I've listed the hundred most recent deletions labelled "G2" at User:Cryptic/g2 and begun some analysis. I haven't gotten very far, since it's a bit late here and I'm tired, but so far I've found neither an unambiguous test nor a page that shouldn't have been deleted. Anyone else who cares should feel free to join in. —Cryptic 03:42, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't care if someone wants 8 words (which say nothing about the title) plus a link back. No need to DRV it, just ask the admin. Would have been better to keep it in their userspace, but whatever. User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report is so big it's hard to load. Cutting out all the content free pages helps the report load faster and makes it easier to dig out the attack pages, personal info on minors, copyvio etc. User:Cryptic's deletion of about a 1000 pages today helps a lot too. It takes time to check each page, and a useless deleted page is one less to check and recheck and recheck for users working the list. I'd hate to see the reaction if content free pages were listed at MfD by the dozens. Legacypac (talk) 04:05, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

  • DRV serves an important purpose of ongoing education. The DRV forum is a community discussion that serves to ensure alignment, or encourage alignment, between administrator deletion decisions and community consensus. If the page should not have been deleted, both the tagger and deleter need to take note. Check the opening line of WP:CSD, speedy deletion is meant to be very tightly contained. DRV is not primarily about achieving a particular outcome for a particular page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:58, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Testing is an ephemeral activity - once the test edits are done, the content is usually no longer useful for anything. Other than perhaps a short time delay, I see no reason to exempt draft space. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:01, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Blank submissions to AfC or essentially blank Draft pages are tests. "Oh look what does this SUBMIT button do? I'm going to test it" or Draft pages with a line of text where the user is evidently satisfied they figured out how to start a page and go off to build the same title in mainspace two minutes later. Tests take many forms. The common sense "test" for if it was a G2 Test should be "Was this a good faith serious effort to create an article on a potentially suitable topic or is it someone testing how to create a page or testing how to format a ref or testing what a SUBMIT button does or testing how to put their own name in Wikipedia or testing if they can in put something about their middle school crush in etc? We should also consider people's feelings. Having a page deleted as a Test is a lot friendlier than seeing it deleted as Vandalism or Spam. Legacypac (talk) 17:18, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

  • Support Anything that's truly problematic in draft space can be handled via other criteria. I would also Support deprecating G2 entirely, since a test page can be deleted by other criteria, but a test edit doesn't need G2 to be reverted appropriately. Jclemens (talk) 18:17, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong Support for clarifying that G2 does not apply to draft space or user space. Weak Support for deleting G2 altogether. A test edit in article space likely qualifies for A1 and likely qualifies for G1 (nonsense) or G3 (vandalism). A test edit in Wikipedia space would likely be G1 or G3. And so on. G2 definitely should not apply in draft space or user space. Why not do a test in one of them? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:30, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal of G2, definitely oppose removal for main and project spaces. It would mean stuffing more stuff through G6. Ideally, most G2 would go via G7. Perhaps G2 should be restricted for creations by non-active accounts. Userspace is already clearly excluded frm G2, and should be. For draftspace, there is a lesson here that some tightning of the applicability of G2 may be in order. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:43, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose there are tons of blank or effectively blank pages in Draft space. After some time passes and they are abandoned there is no value in keeping them. We don't have a "blank" CSD that covers Draft space. There are other types of test pages too in Draft space. No point running them through MfD. Legacypac (talk) 11:30, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Draft space is for proto-articles, not test pages. Allowing meaningless test pages into draftspace hinders people from improving actual drafts. There is a reason why Draft:Test is salted. This is why we have sandboxes and userspace. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 07:47, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Let's not confuse Test Edits with Test Pages. I can revert a test edit, but an entire test page requires a CSD or XfD process. Pages that are not a serious attempt at creating an article are most kindly called Test Pages. Should MfD really need to go through pahes that are called Sally Jones and the only content is Sally Jones? How is anyone supposed to guess who the page is talking about even? Legacypac (talk) 00:05, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Proposal to expand A7 to films and television shows

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Closing per WP:SNOW.--Kostas20142 (talk) 10:54, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello all!

I want to propose the expansion of A7 to films and television shows. I am aware that similar proposals have been mooted before however I think that I can do a good job of explaining why we need another discussion. Recently, I have noticed a sharp increase in the number of articles about films that have come up in the new pages feed. A large proportion of these simply make no credible claim of significance and are always deleted when PROD-ed. I have attempted to use this rationale for speedy deletions but the administrators who patrol the A7 categories, quite rightly, follow the policy and either decline it or PROD it themselves.

Web content such as podcasts and live-streamed shows can be deleted under A7 and television shows and films are, for all intents and purposes, the same as "web content" which is within A7's scope. I see no reason why, for instance, a drama which makes no credible claim of significance should be exempt from A7 when it is broadcast on terrestrial television but can be tagged for A7 if it is streamed online. Ergo, sticking something in the 7-day PROD queue which would be deleted via A7 if it had been broadcast in a different manner makes no sense to me.

Due to the nature of deletions (CSD and PROD), I cannot provide diffs or examples but the administrators among you will be able to view deleted pages. I have provided 20 examples of uncontested AfDs on films and television shows from the past month below.

Therefore I propose that the wording of A7 should be updated to include films and television shows, with the first sentence reading This applies to any article about a real person, individual animal(s), organization, web content, film, television show or organized event that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant, with the exception of educational institutions.

Thanks,

DrStrauss talk 13:58, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Support

Given the wealth of opposition, empirical evidence says it isn't. Make your case, please. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Oppose

  • Oppose this will create a mess since there is currently not agreement as to whether or not some remote attachment to a blue link is a credible claim of significance or not. Virtually every film or TV series can find some remote attachment to a notable actor, notable studio, or TV station. Those that can't are likely borderline A11 or actually A11. Since I don't see this actually ever being enforceable, I'm opposing it because I don't want to see anymore "NPP wants to A7 Lady Gaga" type conversations around Wiki, which this will lead to if someone ever tries to use it. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Don't worry about people criticising NPP. I mentioned it merely as contextual information on how I came across it. I'm not claiming to speak on behalf of all patrollers so all criticism should be directed at me. DrStrauss talk 14:21, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
My critique there is not about the proposal making people mad, but that it would cause dissatisfaction both among the people who review CSD and among the NPP crowd if it ever became a part of policy. To be honest, I almost forgot that these weren't covered subjects because I've never actually seen a new film or TV show article that didn't include a claim that several of the more inclusion-minded CSD reviewers would find significant. Basically my critique is that even if we got consensus to make these covered subjects, in practice they wouldn't be because you can almost always find a blue-linked connection to a film to point to as a reason to prefer discussion. While I'd prefer a narrower understanding of what a credible claim of significance is, I also firmly believe some people think it is one, we should be discussing. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:35, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
As an example I just found: Golden Kingdom would likely be tagged by an NPP person because the text of the article doesn't explain any reason why it should be here. It has reviews in a few magazines listed as references, which one could argue over whether they count as RS. Since there could be an argument, the reviewing admin will almost always send to AfD. Virtually every film is going to be like that, even if covered. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:45, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
@TonyBallioni: personally, this NPP patroller would probably just leave that one alone. The assertion that "virtually every film" will have to go to AfD isn't exactly accurate (see the examples I've given below). DrStrauss talk 16:15, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Web content, as defined in the web notability policy to which A7 refers, includes media [and] podcasts, so "web content" includes "web-delivered content". DrStrauss talk 16:05, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
That's a horrible, horrible misreading of the guideline. Ebooks, digital-only music releases, and downloadable software have all been found as outside the scope of A7. The language about content being accessed via the web browser was intended to make this clear, even though it's been blurred again as browser add-ons became more powerful. DES is pretty much on target about the intent of the criterion. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 18:59, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
@Hullaballoo Wolfowitz: In my experience, downloadable software is often considered within the scope of A7 as web content, despite the WP:WEB definition. Adam9007 (talk) 20:06, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
  • I would be inclined to treat the fact that a TV series has been broadcast on terrestrial or national television as an assertion of significance in itself. Same goes for TV series or films which star notable actors, have notable people involved in the production, or are made by notable media organisations. Films are a little more dubious but I suspect that a film which has a cinematic release probably has reviews available and may well be notable. That may take care of most of the suggested examples. The difference between web series and a series broadcast on terrestrial television is that the barrier to making a web series is much lower - you just need a camera. Hut 8.5 14:35, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
@Hut 8.5: "probably": correct. The number of articles made about films and television shows is quite large and the majority of them are notable. However, the minority which aren't and would be covered by my proposal is large enough to warrant the A7 expansion as I have shown in my answer to Ritchie. DrStrauss talk 16:12, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
I think that in practice this would lead to the notable ones being speedied or tagged for speedy deletion as well. You said above that you would like to delete articles about TV series broadcast on terrestrial TV under this, that's the kind of thing that this would lead to. Hut 8.5 17:37, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose unless somebody can point me evidence in the last month of at least 20 AfDs for TV shows and films that all closed as "snow delete" with no keep !votes, or uncontested PRODs of the same. If we're not tripping up over ourselves with AfDs that haven't got a hope in hell and are being swamped with "delete" !votes, this proposal is a solution looking for a problem. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:04, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
@Ritchie333: sure, here you go:1234567891011121314151617181920
DrStrauss talk 15:44, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Edit: No disrespect intended Ritchie but it's not a case of a solution looking for a problem, it's that you have clearly overlooked that such a problem exists. I've provided you with the links you wanted so I assume you'll be changing your !vote. DrStrauss talk 16:00, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Of those, I see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Goalpariya Hero had one person say they were close to a keep but not quite, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wine Tasting (film) needed a relist, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Budak Pailang had no input and was a soft delete, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Drug War (2018 film) was a "some sources but not quite" and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Call Of Gabriel was a soft delete. I think they all needed a discussion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aek Chabhi Hai Padoss Mein needed two relists, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Crossed Loves was a soft delete, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Free Spirit (South African TV series) (2nd nomination) was second nomination, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/News Room was a soft delete, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Twenty-Four Hours (TV program) required a relist, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kings of Dance was a soft delete, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Athu Ithu Ethu needed two relists and was a soft delete. So, sticking with oppose for now. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:55, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
A soft delete is essentially the same as an uncontested PROD though... DrStrauss talk 16:58, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
...which in turn is not the same as a speedy. A PROD hangs around for a week, a speedy doesn't. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:00, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
...exactly! If a soft delete is a speedy then it should count as one of the 20. DrStrauss talk 18:00, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Well no, because an AfD gets put in the main listings, assigned to the various deletion lists and project pages, and continually bumped back up to the top a few times when relisting. Short of talk page spamming people, I don't know how else you could attract attention to them. A PROD gets none of that. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
So of the 20 examples, 15 could reasonably be handled without deletion and 2 were already covered under G3. Only 3 out of those 20 had no potential redirect or merge target. The question thus should be: Are there really so many articles that need to be handled at AFD or is the problem people taking articles to AFD instead of handling them themselves via WP:ATD? Because if it's the latter - and the aforementioned examples seem to indicate this - the problem can't be fixed by expanding A7 but by educating users that redirecting/merging non-notable creative works to their notable creators, participants etc. without deletion discussions is usually possible. Regards SoWhy 20:02, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
... Not to mention that the presence of a seemingly-appropriate speedy deletion criterion would have prevented a fair number, perhaps almost all, of those from being turned into redirects. Speedy deletion criteria should be conscientiously scripted to avoid WP:ATD cases. Jclemens (talk) 20:54, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Tell me about it! I've had two people yell on my talk page in the last week swearing blind that "well we might be able to redirect" isn't a reason to decline A7, even though WP:ATD says it is. Same thing for people thinking WP:NOTINHERITED is an automatic A7, whereas the actual guideline link just says you can't have a standalone article - saying nothing about a redirect. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:11, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
@Ritchie333: Tell me about it! I've had two people yell on my talk page in the last week swearing blind that "well we might be able to redirect" isn't a reason to decline A7, even though WP:ATD says it is. Same thing for people thinking WP:NOTINHERITED is an automatic A7, whereas the actual guideline link just says you can't have a standalone article - saying nothing about a redirect. Hear Hear! Adam9007 (talk) 21:20, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose WP:Notability (media) suggests radio/tv shows are notable if aired on national channels. NFILMS covers various criteria for films. Your proposal addresses an area that has the potential of significant subjectivity in A7 assessment. The current process seems to be fairly balanced (and in fact, the Prod is the most non-controversial method you could prefer; seven days of waiting does not take away anything from the project). Thanks. Lourdes 01:48, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - I'm not our most prolific New Page Reviewer, but for the purpose of gathering empirical experience, I certainly do a lot of it and I see what arrives. I think the proposal is a solution looking for a problem. I can think of half a dozen topics I would like to see included in A7, but this is not one that can't be adequately handled by PROD and AfD and is not a priority and certainly not while deletion tagging is still open to every newbie and inexperienced user. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:53, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
@Kudpung: out of interest, what are those half-dozen? DrStrauss talk 21:38, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
DrStrauss. Forget I mentioned it and let's stick with: I think the proposal is a solution looking for a proble. I think to discuss anything else here right now would confuse the RfC and detract from its immediate purpose. Perhaps another time. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:44, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The arguments regarding connections to notable individuals being a credible claim of significance convince me that the use case is small enough and the ambiguity large enough that this would cause more problems than it would solve. ~ Rob13Talk 15:59, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. With a tendency of not checking when deleting this would delete a lot of actual notable subjects especially from the non-english productions. For the rest the points about WP:ATD applies. Agathoclea (talk) 16:32, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Per above. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 08:18, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Extended discussion

@TonyBallioni: I've put in a request at WP:RfCl. DrStrauss talk 07:44, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why can IPs nominate a CSD?

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I'm still asking. Earlier I ran across a CSD nomination for Nina Godiwalla that been nominated by an IP. I and another editor saved it by just cleaning up the sourcing. It did have source problems, but the article was pretty much already written and not anywhere near candidacy for CSD. I'd like to think if I didn't catch this, whichever admin did see it would know it wasn't CSD fodder. Why can IPs make nominations? What an opportunity for vandalism. CSD nominations really should be restricted to auto confirmed and above. — Maile (talk) 00:55, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Any editor can apply a CSD tag when patrolling new pages including IPs but not existing articles. Sometimes it can be abused or used for vandalism. KGirl (Wanna chat?) 01:11, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Not a horrible idea, and one I'd probably support if we could find a good low-cost method to enforce it via edit filter. ~ Rob13Talk 01:48, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
I've seen some legit CSD requests added by IPs. That's why they are still allowed. A single instance of mistagging is not a good rationale for disallowing these, among other things because a single legit tagging will invalidate the whole argument. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:45, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Agreed, it's just not big enough of a problem, and the reviewing admin is (we hope) intelligent enough to tell if it's a legitimate CSD. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 07:54, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
(Edit conflict with Jo-Jo Eumerus): I don't think there is a need to filter out IPs from tagging articles for speedy deletion according WP:CSD criteria. There are editors that contribute on maintenance tasks but choose not to register an account. I see that most vandalism is usually quick and easy, so in this case the solution might be worst than the problem. If the filter was implemented nothing would prevent that determined IP from registering an account and tagging it unless auto-confirmed status would also become a requirement. I would personally leave it as it is now. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:49, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Er ... your point is well taken. As much as I would prefer the holes in the system be filled to prevent a recurrence, I've had personal experience with a determined blocked sock master who did exactly what you say. He had been vandalizing as numerous IPs, and attacking editors on a talk page. When the talk page was protected, he simply created an account, and made enough minor edits elsewhere to achieve confirmed status, with the sole purpose of returning to attack on the talk page. We got him in the long haul. But it's a possibility out there. — Maile (talk) 12:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

The tagging user doesn't decide the page should be deleted; the handling admin does. An anon who tags a page correctly has merely attracted the admin's attention to the page - to do an action (s)he would have been authorized to do even without the tagging. An anon who mistags a page has done an action which is no worse than a registered user mistagging a page. Unless you can show that anons have a much higher false-positive rate than registered users, or even than extended-confirmed users, there is no reason to even start discussing this. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 14:21, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

The CSD should be reviewed to make sure it is correct by the admin before they hit the delete button. If this happens it doesn't matter if there is the odd malicious nomination made by an IP. Lankiveil (speak to me) 10:30, 14 August 2017 (UTC).

Discussion of WP:G5

See Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Plea for a slightly less blunt WP:G5 for the beginnings of a conversation about WP:G5. Malinaccier (talk) 05:18, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Proposed minor modification regarding G13

The rule for G13 says "that have not been edited in over six months (excluding bot edits)"

I'd like to propose a change. I will give two options, and at the moment I'm indifferent between the two.

Option 1. Change to "that have not been edited in over six months". In other words, remove the bot exclusion.

Option 2. Modify the bot which adds the template, so that it ignores bot edits.


Rationale— at present if an editor checks the edit history and finds that it has been six months since the last substantive edit they can nominate it for deletion, but the page will show up with the template with a big red bar through it. That red bar indicates that it has been less than six months since the last edit.

This will undoubtedly sound like trivial tinkering to anyone who does not work on removing these.

Let me explain my process so you understand why it is not trivial.

I helped with the development of the bot, and reached a significant level of comfort with the ability of the bot to get it right. If I open an article and it has a green bar, I will look at the identity of the editor who added it. If I'm not familiar with them, I will double check the history to make sure it qualifies. (It always does). Because there are only a handful of editors who work on identifying these articles, in 95% of the cases I am familiar with their ability to identify them correctly, and I can delete without double checking the history.

It takes less than a second, on average, in the case of articles with a green bar and an editor I recognize.

If it has a red bar, in order to delete it, I have to check the history and confirm that the offending edit is a bot edit. This doesn't take long, and I can probably do it in 15 seconds.

A 14 second gain doesn't sound like much but I've done many thousands, and it adds up.

There may be a good reason for the bot edit exclusion (it was added here and discussed here) but this means we have a mismatch between the criteria for deletion and the criteria for tagging.

Unfortunately, the bot creator @Hasteur: has a retired notice on their user page, but I see recent edits.

If you are wondering "why now?", on most days there are no red bars. At this moment, there are 21 items in the cat. That's less than a minute, if they all have green bars. But 10 have a red bar, so we are talking closer to 4 minutes. Still, not a lot of time but it adds up.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:15, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I've been doing a whole bunch of G13s and now Crypic declined a few for what I assumed were exempted edits. In one case the page was correctly tagged G13 but an IP removed the tag less than 6 months ago. In another User:Northamerican1000 removed 7 random letters less than 6 months back on a page not otherwise edited for 11 months. According to an even narrower interpretation of G13 (I can imagine this being said) the act of tagging it G13 is an edit that invalidates the tag itself. If I see a 3 month old draft and post a review that says "this should be deleted" does that reset the 6 month countdown? Legacypac (talk) 05:01, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Summoned I respond. Been a little disenchanted with wikipedia for various reasons and reduced my focus again. The nominating bot takes the strictest interpertation of the rule that any edit less than 6 months prior to nomination resets the clock. Nominating for CSD doesn't invalidate the CSD criteria because it has to have lied unedited for 6 months 'immediately prior' to the nomination. Legacypac's comment on the page at 3 months will reset the clock. Rather than take the time to look at the list of most recent edits and work backwards throwing out bot edits, I decided (in conjunction with the community) to go with the assumption that any edit is enough to potentially spark interest from people who have it on a watchlist. I could go through and discard explicitly flagged bots, but the extra pages this would gather does not feel like a good investment of time. Hasteur (talk) 12:53, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support 1, Oppose 2 I personally think 6 months unedited should mean 6 months unedited. I'd rather not get into "6 months unedited, unless it's a bot, unless it's a trivial edit" because that gets us into dangerous territory with discretion. If editors want to get into discretion and considerations, that is something a set of eyes and brain can do (and administrators can evaluate). Hasteur (talk) 12:58, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Agree with Hasteur. The complications are not worth it. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:08, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1 - There are two different issues here (1) What are the criteria for G13? and (2) What will the bot do? Pages can be deleted under db-g13 whether they have been tagged as such by a bot or a person or neither, as long as they meet the criteria. There are many bots that go around making changes to pages for a variety of purposes, but they don't demonstrate that any human editor is interested in the page. If it's complicated to make the db-g13-tagging bot make exceptions, then leave it alone and let it tag only totally unedited ones; let human editors look at the others and tag them if appropriate. As to having pages with trivial edits that don't actually change the text of the page be eligible, that would be okay with me, since, as Hasteur points out, administrators are expected to check first before deleting, and also because db-g13 is a "soft" delete, so it's easy to get back the draft.—Anne Delong (talk) 14:21, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose both - just dropping by with my perennial "G13 should be deprecated" comment; I oppose all changes to the criterion which are not deleting the criterion. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 14:35, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Trivial bot edit changing "Its to It's" currently resets the clock. Delinking of deleted pages resets the clock. It's a race to find the pages over 6 months before some trivial edit makes them non-G13. Otherwise we have to run it through MfD to clean up the declined garbage. Legacypac (talk) 15:04, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
    • @Legacypac: Do you know how often your examples of resetting the clock actually happen (Hint: it's on the order of about 1 page per 10k). It's not that competitive of a race to get all the eligible pages before a trivial change comes along Hasteur (talk) 20:00, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
No I don't know. I'm only finding the exceptions, I can't see the number of pages deleted. Legacypac (talk) 21:37, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


  • I agree with hasteur that "trivial edits" bring in too much discretion, and it's not worth it. However, whether or not an edit is a bot (defined strictly, as having undergone a BRFA and operating with a bot flag), should be a clear-cut distinction with no room for ambiguity. Anything else (AWB typofixes included) is not a bot per se, and should reset the clock, no matter how small. – Train2104 (t • c) 15:31, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Support 1 If a page has been edited then it is not abandoned. It doesn't matter if that edit is by a human or by a bot doing work at the behest of a human. Thryduulf (talk) 17:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

− I've manually cleared a large backlog of pages categorized as G13 eligible but reviewing other categories I'm finding many more pages the template on the page correctly says it is G13able, but however the page is supposed to end up in the G13 able category is not happening. Anyone know how to fix this? Can a bot be run to find all G13able pages and CSD tag them regardless of category? Would save me a ton of work and help reduce the backlog.

There are 2 categories Category:G13 eligible AfC submissions and Category:AfC_G13_eligible_soon_submissions The first is pages that are 100% eligible for G13 right now. The eligible soon pages are ones that are between the 5 months and 6 months unedited. The eligible soon is designed so that people who want to try and save pages can go through and try to make effort on them. A random sampling I did showed no pages that are eligible at this time, so could you show an example of a page that should be eligible but isn't being nominated? Hasteur (talk) 20:07, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Draft:Nail_Art_And_Beauty_Nagelstudio_Schiedam Draft:Andrew_Watts_(countertenor) Draft:JOEpop Draft:The Never Content. (This last one got picked up today but was G13 elegable on the 11th)

There were about 1100 more before they started piling up on Sat. when I started this thread. Legacypac (talk) 22:10, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

  • I don't care about 2. This strikes me as an IAR situation; just make the tweak if you think it would be helpful, and don't worry about asking BAG for a little change. Oppose 1. Bots are irrelevant to the question of whether a page has been abandoned, unless you can show that a human picked a specific group of drafts as candidates for automatic editing, e.g. someone asks for a bot that will change all [[Foo]] links into [[ooF]], and someone else writes it. Beyond that, a bot edit we should ignore, entirely and absolutely. Nyttend (talk) 04:50, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1. Support 2. Seems pretty straightforward to me, if you want to streamline the process to delete stale drafts. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:48, 21 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1. Support 2. : no brainer, an abandoned raft is an abandoned draft. Bots and minor AWB edits don't change the acceptability level of the draft and should not reset the clock. Off topic, but I would even advocate shortening 6 months to 3 months, but that's another discussion.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:23, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose 1. Support 2. This is especially important given that we have multiple magic links bots running now if I recall. That shouldn't make G13 harder for drafts that are eligible. Same goes for other bots, just the magic links one is the best example I can currently think of. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:03, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Post closing note: The Template that magically populates the "this page is eligible for G13" cannot support exclusions. See {{AFC submission/declined}} and {{AFC submission/draft}}. Second the bot will continue to push for the more strict standard of completely unedited as it's the more conservative/AGF position. The bot matching the same standard as the template is a side benefit. Any editor who wishes to push the leading edge of G13s under the less strict interpertation is perfectly free to do so, but to reduce the risk of false positives the bot will not follow. Hasteur (talk) 13:54, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Oppose 1, support 2. It should be obvious, but to be clear - there is a human behind AWB so AWB edits are not synonymous with "bot edits" as outlined in the original proposal here. VQuakr (talk) 19:37, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Clarifiying CSD G11

The issue of poorly made G11 nominations have remained and they make the criterion makes it extremely subjective. What is the level of bias needed to allow G11 deletion? See this discussion happening ten years ago for more information. The situation should have changed enough for this to be reconsidered. I propose a new clarification for G11: Pages whose main purpose is to promote or publicize its subject or some other entity, whose contents primarily consist of external links, contact information related to the entity being promoted, and unsourced or poorly sourced statements supporting the purported superiority of the entity. This also includes cases where the creator identifiably, usually through the username or user page, have a conflict of interest, when that the page is written in a disportionally positive tone. This will limit any future disputes arising from the differing interpretions of G11. Thank you. 211.100.57.166 (talk) 05:43, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

  • I don't know that "bias" is part of the equation. "Blatant", and its replacing synonym "unambiguous", has only become more difficult due to promoters becoming more skilled at inserting promotion into Wikipedia. I gather from others that different admins may have significantly different tolerances for G11 speedy deletion requests. At DRV, I see very few G11 protests. "main purpose is to promote or publicize its subject" is too vague, given that promoters have learned to be subtle, with the use of advertorials. I think G11 should apply liberally to any page describing any for-profit organisation, where the page content lacks any independent commentary on the topic, AND all links and sources (if any) are to unambiguous promotion, or non-independent sources, or sources that link to making purchases associated with the topic. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:13, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Looking at the username? Maybe compare my first article with my username. Agathoclea (talk) 06:20, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
      • Not replying to me I worked out. I agree, many newcomers make a username matching their arriving interest which will match their first contributions. Especially noting how difficult it is to get a good new username. A company-associated username I think should be welcomed as an honest COI declaration; they should be mere moved from User:Company X to User:Company X, Person A. These people are not the clever, below-the-radar, committed promoters who create the difficult border cases testing the definitions of words describing G11. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:54, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I agree with SmokeyJoe in that G11 may be used liberally in this manner. However, this is not the opinion of many others (see User:SoWhy/Ten Commandments for Speedy Deletion and Wikipedia:Why I Hate Speedy Deleters#G11). If one checks out Special:RandomInCategory/Candidates for speedy deletion as spam there are plenty of articles whose G11 deletion one might object to. This is the reason I proposed a clarification. 211.100.57.166 (talk) 08:52, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Additional comment: I would like to note that the criterion should not be applied exclusively, or even particularly, to "for-profit" organizations, as SmokeyJoe mentioned. Non-profits should be treated the same. If someone creates Wikipedia is awesome we should be able to delete that as G11. 211.100.57.166 (talk) 08:57, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
    • That sounds idealistic, but for non for-profit topics, G11 deletions are far less called for. Platitudes and puffery on a long dead philosopher is far more likely to be workable than platitudes and puffery on a recent up market underwear company. One is not likely the product of a promotion agenda and budget, the other, is. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:14, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm also concerned about the range of views on G11. Some Admins insist on puffery or sales language being present, but much of the spam is neutrally written pages on totally non-notable entities designed to support link building. Smart marketers don't write XYZ is an awesome company please buy their products. New wording is likely warranted. Non-profits vs for profits = nondifference in the problem. The idea the page must include some outside independant commentary about the organization is a nice bright line between spam and encyclopedic content that matches up with WP:GNG Legacypac (talk) 16:17, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Actually, I think non-profit COI equally important. It contributes to the impression so many good faith new editors get that promotional writing is what we want, because they see so much of it. It detracts from actually useful information about organizations by giving such content about how important their causes are, sometimes to the extent it competes with the nPOV of our actual articles. It gives fertile ground for undeclared paid editors --such organizations and their leaders are just as eager for publicity as any commercial organization,and equally gullible. it's not giving undue weight to long dead philosophers that's the concern, but the assistant professors whose CVs get magnified in attempts to make it appear that they pass WP:PROF. In fact, I'm starting to emphasise dealign with them. DGG ( talk ) 18:09, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
legacypac to the extent that you believe "neutrally written pages on totally non-notable entities" are ever properly in the domain of CSD, I think you've demonstrated a fundamental misunderstanding of what CSD criteria can be. Can you explain how the CSD criteria listed at the top of this page would apply to such a criterion? Jclemens (talk) 05:42, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
Sorry that's not what I said and you fundamentally are trying to trap me. SPAM takes many forms. Legacypac (talk) 05:47, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
You can argue that's not what you meant, but it's clearly what you appear to have said. No one is trying to trap you, just offering you a chance to clarify what appears to be a roundly unsupportable statement. Please do clarify what you meant. Jclemens (talk) 08:31, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
Try rereading the whole sentence before quoting part of it out of context. I'm talking aboutlink building spam where the text serves no encyclopedic purpose, it simply exists the support the SEO link. Legacypac (talk)
  • The reason we have the language as it is now is requirement #1 from the top of the page. Trying to determine the COI an editor might have had makes it subjective. I also agree that promotional language from a clearly COI editor might pass G11 easier than from others but it still needs to be objective. If User:ACME Corp creates ACME Corp with the content "ACME Corp is a really important company", I think G11 applies objectively. If someone else did, how do we know they have a COI? Maybe they just like ACME Corp products? The problem with people seeing promotional language is usually not actually people promoting their own stuff but the fact that articles are oftentimes written by people interested in the subject and most people interested have feelings about those subjects influencing their editing. Regards SoWhy 18:23, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
  • No one could ever accuse me of being sympathetic to spammers, but I actually am for a more conservative application of G11, and often will PROD or send to AfD things that other people at NPP are more ready to tag as G11. This is because I recognize that I have strong opinions on this, and as such, I prefer to temper them by having more eyes on it. I'll vigourously argue my side, but if people think I'm wrong, I don't mind it. The important thing to remember on this is that something that is not G11 can be deleted as promotional at AfD per WP:NOT, WP:DEL4, and WP:DEL14. We don't only have to rely on CSD for this, and there is nothing wrong with being more conservative on your deletion methods. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:59, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I wondered whether to post this as sometimes it seems as if I'm not entitled to my views on CSD, but here goes. I always thought G11 was about the content itself, not who wrote it. I was criticised for declining G11 on a user page that said: "X company is a company consisting of XYZ people". They tried to G11 this based purely on who wrote it. Yes, it's not what we'd like to see on a user page, and yes, it would have been an A7 it it was in mainspace, but if that is deemed "unambiguous advertising", then we're in trouble. Big trouble. To me, if it's written in an even vaguely encyclopaedic tone, it's not a G11. Another thing: I notice nobody's mentioned Wikipedia:Identifying blatant advertising. What do you think of that essay? Adam9007 (talk) 21:08, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
    No, you are absolutely right. G11 should not be used for articles that pass WP:GNG. WP:COI is immaterial; Any article that describes its subject from a neutral point of view does not qualify for this criterion. G11 should be used rarely and sparingly, and only for advertising or spam without any relevant or encyclopedic content Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:21, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

New criteria ("F11" or extension of "G8")

A considerable chunk of the orphaned files on this project are images that used to accompany articles that deleted long ago. A useful criteria for helping reduce the amount of files that end up orphaned and never used would complement the deletion of the article covering the topic. Realistically, File:The Haptik logo.png could've only been used in was Haptik, which was deleted for A7 back in 2014. That file has been since been orphaned due to the file's deletion and was added to Category:Wikipedia orphaned files which has amassed over 100K files. Having such a criteria would help reduce the rate at which non-useful files are added to the category. Jon Kolbert (talk) 01:58, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

  • If anything, that sounds like it'd be an extension of G8. -- Tavix (talk) 02:02, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
    That's true. I've adjusted the title accordingly. Jon Kolbert (talk) 02:08, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
    Even unfree files we only delete if they've been orphaned for over a week. I might support a proposal which gives a sdelay of significantly longer, but not one which allows for deletion on sight. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:35, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
  • The fact a file isn't used in any pages doesn't necessarily mean it should be deleted. For example Commons will accept images that are "realistically useful for an educational purpose". While being used in an article does meet that standard, files which aren't being used may also qualify. Hut 8.5 06:43, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
    • Agree. Most of those files might be useful and should probably be transferred to Commons if possible. You never know when someone might need them and it's not like we are running out of space. Regards SoWhy 06:59, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
    That's correct, being in use or not doesn't establish the basis for a file being of educational value or not, I do not think anyone is disputing that here. In fact, unused files such as File:Toronto Police Service Rover Crew 3.jpg and File:Tyson Ritter.jpg do get transferred as they serve an educational purpose. The distinction setting apart files that would fall under this criteria is that files such as File:Notimeband.jpg, don't serve anything beyond "a b/w pic of four blokes on a car", which wouldn't fall within the project scope of commons either. Jon Kolbert (talk) 07:43, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
    Speedy deletion criteria are supposed to be straightforward and as objective as possible, anything which involves subjective judgements won't be suitable. Now "image only used in a deleted article" is straightforward and objective, but "image only used in a deleted article and which isn't suitable for Commons and which doesn't have any other encyclopedic use" is much more open to interpretation, which makes it a lot less suitable as a criterion. Hut 8.5 17:53, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

What exactly would be the new criteria here? I'm not clear on the proposal. In particular, how will your proposal meet "Uncontestable: It must be the case that almost all pages that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted"? Something like "files orphaned when articles are deleted" would take out a huge number of files that should not be deleted. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 13:18, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

  • Oppose - First off, images without an article still serve an education purpose. Second, this does not seem to really be a problem. We have a lot of server space, thus meaning we do not need to reduce the images on it. Really, it would be detrimental, as it would get rid of files that serve an educational purpose. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 13:24, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose as almost all images around here are educational in some form. Those images that are not, are free and have no other speedy delete reason should be considered more carefully first (FFD is a venue). But I think it is fair enough to speedily delete the non-free files that may have been used in the deleted page. Things like book covers may as well disappear with a page about the book, and similarly for logos. But then it is not a big deal if they go through the unused fair use timeout delete. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:56, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
A book cover may be useful on the the notable author page even if the standalone page on the book is deleted (though better to redirect the book title at the author). Legacypac (talk) 23:40, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose mostly because these really need some review. Some images could be used more on the site. Some should be transferred to Commons as encyclopedic even if not used (e.g. potentially useful on other projects, potentially useful in the future, useful as content unto themselves). We have the file PROD process now to get rid of the really bad ones, and that's good enough. ~ Rob13Talk 07:32, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Just because an image has not been used does not mean that it will not. When writing articles, you go looking for images. Sometimes I want images for purposes that the original uploader never considered. Sometimes I just use a different one so a reader looking up a topic will not see the same image over and over. When I take images myself, I often upload several. Looking at the category, I instantly spotted File:ACTION-Canberra bus08.jpg, a nice image of ACTION bus 341 in Woden. It is not from a deleted article. It has been flagged as an orphaned free file since December 2011, and for transfer to Commons since February 2012. I have no idea why it hasn't been transferred. Deletion would be detrimental. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:55, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. A nonfree image dependent on a deleted article can already be G8 deleted, while a free image isn't really dependent on an article. Merely having been uploaded for a now-deleted article isn't sufficient reason to delete a free image; it can be moved to Commons, or we can FFD it because "it's not realistically useful anywhere else", but we have a criterion for Commons, and FFD can't be replaced because that's a subjective matter. Nyttend (talk) 06:05, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

New G Criteria: Personal information of Minors

There has been a snow consensus to oppose implementation/development of any such criterion and Streisand effect provides a good read about the rationale.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed G??: any page that discloses personal details of a minor child who is not obviously significantly notable.

I regularly find Draft and Userspace pages that include information on minors including some combination of name, social media handles, full birthday, city and sometimes even elementary school attended. Sometimes these pages even have info on personal preferences and interests. The disclosed information is often enough for an online predator to work with. Usually the pages include some dubious claim the child is a youtube star or rapper or similar. I've yet to find a Draft or User page that discloses a minor's personal info that has any encyclopedia value so the chances of losing valuable content is next to nil.

Failure of WP:N is an alternative way to delete such pages in mainspace, and some of these pages can go G11, but for many examples there is no obvious path in Draft or Userspace except MfD which draws more attention (including by mirror sites) to the info we want to suppress. RevDel can be used but is awkward to request, not as well known to editos as CSDs and not specific to child protection. A clear CSD criteria available in twinkle would emphasize that Wikipedia does not want to host personal information that could be used by pedophiles and potential abductors to lure children online.

The "obviously significantly notable" part is to exclude royals and major celebrity child actors or well known children of actors were the personal info is well sourced from WP:RS.

The source of the information - a friend, enemy, bully, or the child themselves - is not really important to the principle we need to delete these pages on sight. This CSD is clear cut, unambiguous, and easy to understand and use. Please Support as a necessary step in the world we live in. Legacypac (talk) 23:37, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Private information should be WP:Oversighted. --Izno (talk) 00:38, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • I'm with Izno on this. For private information on minors, deletion isn't enough. That said, perhaps the speedy deletion page should include a short section on when and how to request oversight. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 13:12, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose for two reasons. One, this is what oversight is for which can be asked for here (if you are an admin, one can simply delete the stuff under a discretion-preserving rationale and then call oversight - I believe WP:REVDEL has the policy on this). Two, tagging such stuff as a CSD may make it more visible, the opposite to the intent of the policy. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:04, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose as a separate criteria that would effectively highlight these sorts of articles - not something I'm comfortable with, particularly if they're eligible for oversight. The last thing we need to do with oversight-able content is advertise it. Even if a bot courtesy blanks every tagged article within seconds, it's still gonna be in the history and it's still gonna be in the category. I agree that we should deal with pages like these rapidly and decisively, but I don't think this is the best way to do it. UltraExactZZ Said ~ Did 17:39, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Speaking as an oversighter, this is a terrible idea. This would be like holding up a big neon sign saying "Look here!" when that is the exact opposite of what we should be doing (read the Streisand effect article if you are not familiar with it). We should drawing attention to this as little as we possibly can, the more it's mentioned on wiki the more work you are creating for oversighters and the more chance that we might miss something. Wikipedia is constantly mirrored but we can only remove information from the live version, and there are people who troll the differences between dumps to try and find what has been deleted or removed, the more edits that are removed the more likely the changes will be noticed. The more attention you bring to them the more likely that they will be looked for and the more likely they will be examined if found. Thryduulf (talk) 00:34, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Weak support for something like this for children under 13 to address COPPA, because I've had to have user pages deleted for a <13-year-old putting a little TMI on the wiki, and at least at that time there didn't seem to be any firm policies about that, but consensus was to delete her page. I don't think we need this for children over 13 because we oversight anything inappropriate regardless of someone's age., and I would strongly oppose having something like this apply to the user pages of anyone 13+ PCHS-NJROTC (Messages)Have a blessed day. 03:21, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Streisand effect. Potentially dangerous information, including information dangerous for the child to be disclosed, should not be publicly tagged. Firstly, beware "personal information hysteria". A disclosure of being under 18 years old is not a disclosure of sensitive personally identifying information. For where personally identifying information has been left by a minor, see Wikipedia:Oversight#Policy #1. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:31, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Terribly poor idea to encourage editors to publicly tag pages as including information about a minor. Instead, contact an admin for revdel, who will contact an oversighter for oversight. ~ Rob13Talk 07:34, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment given the apparent WP:SNOW oppose here (mostly along the lines of something ought to be done, but this isn't it), the lack of awareness about Oversight, and given that most editors trying to remove children's personal info will be thing in terms of DELETE not in terms of OVERSIGHT then Twinkle & other tools should implement a Special:EmailUser/Oversight option alongside the CSD options with a pre-populated email along the lines of "Child's personal info at articlename". Cabayi (talk) 11:48, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Twinkle change requested at Wikipedia talk:Twinkle#Children's personal info. Cabayi (talk) 10:48, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
Very correct, I'm finding this info in Draft and Userspace pages that need to be deleted not just have some pieces of info oversighted. It often takes the form of "Mary Smith, born 1/1/2008, known on YouTube as Smithster, attends Local Elementary School in Springdale. She has a sister named Sue and is best friends with Matt Jones. Here are her intragram, facebook, and youtube pages. She is actor, youtube personality, and awesome person." If functionality could be built into Twinkle we will see an uptick in reports and removals. Legacypac (talk) 12:41, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
A7 does not cover Draft and Userspace Legacypac (talk) 04:18, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

CSD:G13 application to non-AFC draftspace pages.

I seek a point of clarification based on the recently closed RFCs. It is my understanding that any page in Draftspace that has not been edited by any non-bot actor is eligible for G13. It is also my understanding that even one edit to the page resets the clock for G13. In that case I have the following scenario: Editor A looks at a page that is eligible for G13, but instead nominates (or nominated prior to the new consensus being enacted) for MFD causing a new page revision to take effect. Editor B comes along and decides to nominate for CSD:G13. Is reverting the G13 nomination on the grounds that the page is not eligible because of the recent revision applying the MFD notice in order? I express concern that Editor B's G13 nomination fails the plain text and nuanced meaning interpertations of the rule, fails the "Objective" criterion for CSD, and fails the Uncontestable criterion for CSD. Thoughts? Hasteur (talk) 12:07, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Maintenance/notifications should not count as they are required per process and evidence no intent to work on or improve the draft in any way. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:15, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
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