Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Gulfton, Houston/archive2

BuddingJournalist's comments

Oppose I think this needs significant work on its prose (in particular, the organization of the prose) to meet the FA bar.
- I find the first sentence problematic. In particular, the location of "including" at the very beginning bothers me. Are the apartment complexes the defining feature of Gulfton? The way the first sentence is structured now, Gulfton's location seems to be an afterthought; the focus is on these puzzling apartment complexes. Try perhaps "Gulfton is a community in southwestern Houston, Texas, United States that..."
- I question the choice of the lead picture (or at least the caption needs some rethinking). The caption is quite specific, but there's no tie to the greater article. Is it a famous landmark in Gulfton? Is it indicative of Gulfton's economic troubles?
- The lead, which should summarize an article, seems a bit short.
- "with new apartment complexes " missing a verb here.
- "In the 1980s, the economy declined and the community became home to newly-arrived immigrants." Are these two ideas connected? Seems odd. If so, might need some further explication here.
- "and aspects of Latin American culture and recreation." Jarring after a long list of buildings...
- "the Shenandoah subdivision was built," How does this relate to Gulfton? Explain.
- "Rice Center" I assume this has something to do with Rice University. Link?
- What impact did the young northerners have on the community?
- "DRG Funding" What's this?
- "Lantern Village" Italicized because?
- "rent rates at poorly-maintained apartments in Gulfton and other Houston areas were about the same as at well-maintained apartments in other areas of Houston" I thought the previous sentence mentioned that landlords reduced rates in Gulfton?
- "pouring money down a perceived rat hole." Citation for quotation?
- "Goodner lobbied for services such as a satellite health department clinic for apartment renters." Does not fit well with the rest of the paragraph.
- "In July 1989, members of the Houston Resident Citizens Participation Council...did not like to see funds" Odd, awkward construct.
- So the HRCPC did not want to see funds diverted...what actions did they actually take?
- What's the implication of being designated a "Community Development Target"?
- "Public Life in Gulfton: Multiple Publics and Models of Organization, a 1997 article," If this is an article, it should not be italicized.
- "Robert Fisher, a professor and chair of Political Social Work..." This paragraph seems rather out of place, and breaks up the chronological flow.
- I stopped reading at the end of 1980 through 1992...I got really bogged down by the organization and flow of the prose. I think you'll need to rethink how you're using your sources to build a cohesive story. The 1950s through 1979 led me to wonder about how the development of Gulfton was related to the development of Houston as a whole. Where did it fit in with that story? How did this influx of northerners affect the community?
  - The jumping from description of the history to description of the sources used is particularly jarring. For example, "In that article, Gaines" <-- why do we need to know that Gaines said this in a particular news article? That's not the important or interesting part. You're using footnote citations...that's their purpose. I'd suggest, "According to Gaines, the complexes in Gulfton began to cater to illegal aliens, and landlords allowed renters to "double-up" housing, with several individuals and/or families sharing the same unit."
- Cite your quotations.
- Not really related to FA criteria, but the first two maps need some work. Both are zoomed out a bit far, and hard to make out what is important to note. The first one seems awfully busy. Think about your data-ink ratio... BuddingJournalist 05:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'll look at the rest of these later, but for right now I'll start with these:
  - 1. You said: "I question the choice of the lead picture (or at least the caption needs some rethinking). The caption is quite specific, but there's no tie to the greater article. Is it a famous landmark in Gulfton? Is it indicative of Gulfton's economic troubles?" - This particular complex is discussed in the history section of the article. It became well-known in television advertisements featuring Michael Pollack, who had an over-the-top advertising style. It is indicative of the economic troubles because this complex became bankrupt and foreclosed (it says so in the caption and in the main article). Is there a way to make this more obvious/clear to the reader?
  - 2. You said: "Cite your quotations." - The quotations I used come from the citation afterwards. I.E. the quote "double-up" is to citation #5, "conservative" is to citation #13, "lost its focal issue" is to citation #15. Each block of text has its citation at the end, with everything sourced from the citation. How should I modify the citation structure?
  - 3. The instance of the italicized Lantern Village was changed to quote marks
  - 4. Regarding "with new apartment complexes" - This is the full sentence: "Gulfton was developed in the 1960s and 1970s, in the midst of an oil boom, with new apartment complexes geared towards young singles from the Northeast and Midwest United States who came to work in the oil industry." - The verb is in the previous part of the sentence.
  - 5. You said: "Are these two ideas connected? Seems odd. If so, might need some further explication here." - The sentence referred is from the lead of the article. Does the lead need more explanation taken from the body of the article? The body explains that, since the previous group of tenants left since there was the oil bust, the owners of the apartment complexes needed new tenants and attracted immigrants. - Since the lead needed more content, I decided to add an explanation.
  - 6. You said: "How does this relate to Gulfton? Explain" regarding Shenandoah - The later sections explain that Shenandoah became threatened by the deterioration of Gulfton and tried to block its streets; this connection is regarding events that take place at a later time (mid-1980s) than the beginning of the development of Shenandoah (1950s). Here's my question: What should I add to this sentence?
  - 7. Regarding Rice Center, the Kim Cobb article doesn't give any further explanation to what Rice Center is. Rice Center is a part of a name. (the point is that the person is from the "Jesse H. Jones Center for Economic and Demographic Forecasting at Rice Center") - Should I explain what the Jesse H. Jones Center is?
  - 8. You said: "The 1950s through 1979 led me to wonder about how the development of Gulfton was related to the development of Houston as a whole. Where did it fit in with that story? How did this influx of northerners affect the community?" - The 1950s through the mid-1980s was an economic boom time for Houston and there was a need for housing for the many white collar workers coming from the north. The apartment complexes were built to house these workers. The community of Gulfton did not begin until the apartments opened. Regarding "What impact did the young northerners have on the community? " - The young northerners were the Gulfton community. Of course Shenandoah, the adjacent subdivision, had no problem with them. It was only when the demographics changed in the 1980s when the Shenandoah subdivision began to react.
  - 9. Regarding the construct about the funds being diverted, I decided to alter the order of the sentences and explain what a "Community Development Target" is.
  - 10. You said: '**"rent rates at poorly-maintained apartments in Gulfton and other Houston areas were about the same as at well-maintained apartments in other areas of Houston" I thought the previous sentence mentioned that landlords reduced rates in Gulfton?' - Neither statement conflicts with the other - One can reduce rent rates in X neighborhood, but people in Y neighborhood can reduce their rates at the same time.
  - 11. I explained what DRG Funding is. It is headquartered in Washington; I don't know which Washington the article is referring to.
  - 12. As for the maps, I got them from a U.S. Government website and pieced them together from screenshots. Do you know of any GNU or public domain map services I could use?
  - 13. Regarding the Goodner sentence not fitting; the whole sentence is "John Goodner, a Houston city council member representing a district including Gulfton at that time, said that more changes occurred in his district in the several years leading up to 1988 than in any other area of Houston; Goodner lobbied for services such as a satellite health department clinic for apartment renters" - What I am saying is that his city council area changed, and then he lobbied to serve the new population of the area.

WhisperToMe (talk) 17:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- - - 1) I know it's discussed in the history section, but people coming to the article will not have read the history section yet when they first glance at the picture. I entered this comment before I read anything later on; it's reflective of the confusing nature of the caption, which doesn't explicitly call out how its faring represents Gulfton's economic woes (you say so here, why not just explain in the caption?).
    - 2) Please see Wikipedia:CITE#When_quoting_someone.
    - 4) Sorry, I should have been more explicit. The "in the 1960s and 1970s, in...boom," sets off the modifier from the verb so thoroughly that it reads as if a verb missing ("with new apartment complexes built..."). It's a bit awkward at the moment.
    - 5) Reads better now.
    - 6) I am unsure what you should add. My question is, "why am I reading this sentence"? What purpose does it serve here? Answering those should help answer your own question. It just seems very disconnected from the rest of the paragraph at the moment.
    - 7) You probably want to do more research into what the title means then. If you can summarize his occupation concisely and omit the title altogether, that would be perfectly fine.
    - 8) "The 1950s through the mid-1980s was an economic boom time for Houston" This is what I would like to see in the article...an explicit tie to Houston's development. "The young northerners were the Gulfton community." Yes, but what was the upshot of these young northerners moving in? You have quite a few words devoted to describing Gulfton after its surge in immigration population, but little describing what came before, other than some apartment complexes were built. Is that it? Did these northerners not have any other impact?
    - 9) OK, a bit clearer, but still makes me wonder what impact the HRCPC actually had. The article states that they stated their opinion...what was the implication of this? Was this in form of some sort of formal protest?
    - 10) No, but there is an inherent conflict in how the prose flows. There's no explanation in the article that other communities also reduced rates.
    - 11) Might want to do some more research then.
    - 12) Don't know. At the very least, though, I'd recommend cropping the maps to zoom in a bit more.
    - 13) This is not clear with how the sentences are currently laid out. But my point was that the subject does not fit well with the rest of the paragraph. It's a jarring break with no logical flow. BuddingJournalist 06:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - I'll get to each of the points in a sec, but here are some things:
      - 1. I took the advice regarding DRG. It's in DC
      - 2. I added more explanation in the caption to the photograph
      - 3. Aha. In other words, each quotation needs a cite immediately after the sentence containing it. In that case, I'll add immediate quotations.
      - 4. Regarding the HRCPC, yes, it's a formal protest. Well, it's not a street demonstration. But as an advisory council it made a formal, vocal opposition to the re-allocation of funds in newspaper articles at the time.
      - 5. Regarding the introduction of Shenandoah, I decided to add "Shenandoah would, decades later, clash with Gulfton-based organizations as the demographics of the surrounding apartments deteriorated and property values became threatened" - Hopefully this explains the importance in the beginning.
      - 6. Regarding the first sentence (indicated in the first point in your first response) I altered it to fit your suggestion.
      - 7. As for the awkward sentence I moved the "In the 1960s and 1970s" to the beginning. Does this make the sentence less awkward?
      - 8. From its title it is a demographic and economic forecasting organization. I'm having a tough time finding more supporting info for the "Jesse H. Jones Center for Economic and Demographic Forecasting at Rice Center" - A google search shows the institution being listed in resumes and in articles in the late 1980s, but I can't find its website. I can't really think of how I could exclude the institution, since the point is that the man is the director of a demographic and economic forecasting organization.
      - 9. Regarding the Goodner sentences, how does this work? "John Goodner, a Houston city council member representing a district including Gulfton at that time, said that more changes occurred in his district in the several years leading up to 1988 than in any other area of Houston, referring to the changes in demographics in various apartment complexes. As a city council member Goodner lobbied for services in his district such as a satellite health department clinic for apartment renters"
      - 10. You said: "No, but there is an inherent conflict in how the prose flows. There's no explanation in the article that other communities also reduced rates." - When I said that other neighborhoods could have reduced their rates, I was explaining a possible scenario in how the scenario could come true to demonstrate how the sentences don't conflict. Even prose-wise I don't see how the sentences ("so the owners ... reduced rents" and "rent rates at poorly-maintained apartments in Gulfton and other Houston areas were about the same as at well-maintained apartments in other areas of Houston") conflict. There are many possible scenarios where a group of apartment complexes could decrease their rents and end up having similar rents to other complexes in the city. I don't see how there's an inherent conflict. Also keep in mind that the second sentence has a date mentioned, so in that particular period of time rents were about the same. If it was something like one saying that rents were lowered and one saying that rents were raised or stayed the same, then there would be conflict.
      - 11. The upshot of having these workers is that they had a place to live. Because all of these workers were flooding the Houston area, there was a housing shortage, so the construction of the apartments helped alleviate that. Did I adequately explain this in the latest changes I made?
      - WhisperToMe (talk) 06:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

4) I think this should be made clearer in the article. All we are told is that members of HRCPC "said" some opinions. We're not told of any impact, or through what medium they "said" these things. Again, there's a jarring focus on the source when it's unimportant ("A Houston Chronicle article stated that..."); they either did have actual authority to affect change or they didn't. If their vocal opposition did indeed make a difference, then you could state something along the lines of "Although the group held no official authority to make policy changes, their vocal opposition...etc."
7) Yes, this is a bit better. It'd be nice to explicitly call out where Shenandoah is though. Otherwise, the first two sentences of that paragraph seem to have little to do with one another.
8) But is that really the point? My original question was what Rice Center is. Is it affiliated with Rice University, and thus an academic institution? Is it some sort of non-profit organization? A cursory Google search revealed http://www.escapesexpo.com/speakers.asp?id=1.
9) I'd suggest being more concise there. My original problem with this was that it seemed unconnected with the rest of paragraph (it was unclear what "more changes" meant). Why not, "John Goodner, a Houston city council member representing a district including Gulfton at that time, said that more demographic changes..." and omitting the last part. Of course, there's still the issue of what the vague "more" means. Still unconvinced by the utility of the next sentence. He lobbied for it...so? What happened?
10) The timeline needs to be clear here. Either: "Despite the reduction in rates, a July 17, 1988 Houston Chronicle article stated..." or "Before the reduction in rates...". Otherwise readers will wonder about the juxtaposition.
11) I meant more along the lines of anthropology/ethnography/cultural effects (which is discussed for the immigrant population), rather than just economic.
Also, note that these were examples of problems I saw only through the History section. These issues are most likley indicative of problematic prose throughout the article, and I'd recommend that you undertake a thorough copy-edit. Because you're probably fairly close to the subject, it may be difficult to step outside your expert role and approach the article through the eyes of someone who has not heard of Gulfton; perhaps a pair of fresh eyes may help. Many of your answers above, while edifying, would be better served integrated into the article to help readers unfamiliar with the subject.
The fact that this is turning into a lengthy peer review suggests that you may want to think about withdrawing and working on the article further before bringing it to FAC again. I don't think this is ready at this point, and I have a feeling that the prose issues require a heavy investment in time and energy. BuddingJournalist 05:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment I am studying and/or implementing several of the points above. As for your overall assessment, if the issues above cannot be resolved within a few weeks (or whatever the FA review period is), I would be happy to withdraw this nomination and schedule additional peer reviews and/or copyedit requests and to have a third party look at it. I would like to know how to get a decisive, throrough review/check that addresses all of your general concerns and makes this ready for another FA nomination. Do you have any suggestions of what I should do after revoking the nomination?
To answer 4. They complained directly to city council. One formally addresses city council to convince the council to change its mind. The reason why I used "A Houston Chronicle article" in that sentence is to cite who said that the group had "no real authority" - To have Wikipedia directly say that the group had "no real authority" would be POV.
I used suggested sentences for 10 and, with your link, stated (8) that the Rice Center is a university-affiliated urban research center. With 7 I stated that Shenandoah is adjacent to what became the Gulfton apartments.
Part of the reason why, for 11, there isn't as much about the complexes pre-1985 is because the Houston Chronicle only posts archives for articles written in 1985 and later. No Houston Post (a competing newspaper at the time) articles are online. I would have to visit the main library in person to see archives for pre-1985 articles that may discuss more about the ethnography and culture of the pre-mid 1980s Gulfton. I haven't tried that yet.
As for Goodner, I used your suggested opening, but there still is the "what happened afterwards" bit that needs to be connected. I know that there is a health clinic nearby. If it opened afterwards, I could state this after the Goodner lobbying part. Also I split the bit into two and redistributed the sentences to give more of a context to them.
WhisperToMe (talk) 20:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it doesn't make it past FAC this time around, I'd suggest shopping around for folks who are willing to copyedit articles. There are plenty of great copyeditors who lurk on the FAC pages. Also see if there are any active Wikiprojects that could help out on article such as this one.
Well, I guess it all depends on what "no real authority" means. If it means they had no authority in an official capacity, I fail to see how this is POV; it's just stating a fact, no? Kind of like saying how lobbyists don't have "official" authority to make laws. BuddingJournalist 00:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I decided I would use "no official authority" as a way to say it.WhisperToMe (talk) 19:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]