Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues/Archive 29
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China League One
According to korean sources, China League One is fully professional league. [1], [2]
Many footballers played for K League transfered to China League One, For example, Carlos Adriano de Sousa Cruz, Ha Tae-goon
When they transfered to China League One sides, All korean sources said: China League One is fully professional league (not Semi-professional League)
There have been famous players and managers in China League One,
Did they play in Semi-Professional League?
I don't think so.
Footwiks (talk) 04:19, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- Neither of these sources actually confirm full professionalism, as they do not discuss the subject of professionalism in any sort of detail. The league may very well be fully pro, but it cannot be added to the list without sources that confirm this. Sir Sputnik (talk) 04:32, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- You've provided one source, which really doesn't seem to prove much about the professionalism of China League One. The only sentence in that article that seems useful reads "Reuters reported on 14th that the Chinese Football Association (KFA) has handed the new transfer fee to 32 clubs belonging to the professional football super league and secondary league (second division)." (translated using Google Translate.) That seems to suggest that the "super league" is professional and the "secondary league" is not, at least in my opinion. On the other hand, the last paragraph of this article reads ""We must take building hundred-year clubs as the goal," the spokesman said. "We will remove the seriously insolvent clubs from the professional league." Seeing as though that says "professional league", not "professional leagueS", that suggests that there is only one professional league in China. There may very well be Korean sources that say the CL1 is fully professional, but the burden's on you to find those and bring them to attention. On current evidence, I'd have to say that the league is not fully professional. 21.colinthompson (talk) 04:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- EDIT: from the second source: "Adriano's move to the top of the Chinese professional soccer team was downgraded from the Super League, with Mateus scoring eight goals." Obviously some stuff lost in translation, but this still doesn't prove anything about the professional status of the CL1. 21.colinthompson (talk) 04:42, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- South Korea, Japan, China, 3 countries have had mutual exchange of information in football. South Korean press is not fool. If CL1 is Semi-Professional League, South Korean Press also announce that CL1 is Semi-Professional League.
- What do you think of China League One? Semi-professional League, Amateur League? If you think that CL1 is close to Fully Pro League, Let's find another sources, Why do you concentrate on deletion or negative?Footwiks (talk) 05:05, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- Its not focusing on deletion or being negative, its about making sure everything on Wikipedia is reliably sourced. So far you haven't provided that. You point out some famous players/managers are in the league but that doesn't prove anything, they could be paid well to play in the league but a fully professional league is one where every player is paid a wage that they can live on just being a footballer and the sources don't prove that. The burden is on the person providing the sources to prove what they are trying to say. NZFC(talk) 05:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- I know from first-hand experience that the league is fully-pro (I spent a few days with one of the clubs last year looking after a British player on trial there and some are spending silly money – like Shenzhen F.C. who had Sven Goran Eriksson as manager). I'll see if I can find some sources in Chinese this evening. Number 57 10:31, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- One thing that will need to be confirmed is the status of the Chinese domestic players. Are they fully-professional? It is obvious that this league has great coaches and foreign players and yes, they will be treated great and paid very well but what about the domestics? We can't just grant this league FPL if only a certain percentage of the players are fully-professional. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:36, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
- I know from first-hand experience that the league is fully-pro (I spent a few days with one of the clubs last year looking after a British player on trial there and some are spending silly money – like Shenzhen F.C. who had Sven Goran Eriksson as manager). I'll see if I can find some sources in Chinese this evening. Number 57 10:31, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
- Its not focusing on deletion or being negative, its about making sure everything on Wikipedia is reliably sourced. So far you haven't provided that. You point out some famous players/managers are in the league but that doesn't prove anything, they could be paid well to play in the league but a fully professional league is one where every player is paid a wage that they can live on just being a footballer and the sources don't prove that. The burden is on the person providing the sources to prove what they are trying to say. NZFC(talk) 05:34, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
Luxembourg
Hello, I noticed that the link to whether Luxembourg is a professional league or not doesn't exist anymore (on FIFA, or on the Web Archive). Does anyone know where this information could be found? Especially with F91 Dudelange playing in this year's Europa League Group Stage (a professional tournament?), it would be a shame if any articles that would normally be deemed notable should be thrown out because the league they play in is not professional (granted, Dudelange themselves might also be deemed a non-professional side regardless of their league's status). Cheers --Philk84 
08:20, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
- F91 Dudelange are still semi-professional: [1] Considering they're one of the biggest teams in Luxembourg I think we can still safely assume the league is not fully professional, even in the absence of a specific source. F91 Dudelange players will have to pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer talk 05:05, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks @SportingFlyer: that was an interesting read. And you're probably right - if Dudelange aren't fully professional yet, then the rest of the top flight won't be either. --Philk84
15:39, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks @SportingFlyer: that was an interesting read. And you're probably right - if Dudelange aren't fully professional yet, then the rest of the top flight won't be either. --Philk84
Turkey
Dear readers, in order to clarify the status of Turkish leagues, I added references directly from Turkish Football Federation (TFF) and news article from Anadolu Ajansı (state news agency) which is covering a statement of an executive of governmental sports institution. The fact is that Süper League, TFF First League, TFF Second League and TFF Third League are professional teams. You can see it at "Status" (Charter) of TFF. Each team has direct of General Assembly voting based on their league level. Each player profile at TFF displays when a player turns into professional football by a professional contract. There is an example: Berke Özer turned professional in 18 August 2016, when he was playing for Altınordu, which was competing at TFF First League then, and still compete there as of today (References: [2] and [3]). There are also criteria of being qualified of member of TFF as a professional club. All in all, such leagues are professional. Umi1903 (talk) 19:13, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- I disagree. It is not clear from that website whether these are fully professional or semi-professional players. Additional source will be needed. SportingFlyer T·C 20:00, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Could you provide sufficient references for some leagues from non-English speaking countries, in which it's specifically stated that the competition is a "fully professional", please? Did you have a chance to read the references I added? They are different than ones which were mentioned in an unfinished thread of 2014 in the archives. They are to-do-point and addressing the core issue, clearly mentioning those leagues represent a professional presence. As I stated, even the General Assembly voting cast is depending on this fact. Can you see the cruciality of this, please? Votes of a third tier club can change presidency of federation! So, what am I supposed to do now? Users who discussed this issue seem they are no longer active. Am I going to invite random users? Whom am I going to convince, how am I going to convince? The point of view of that discussion was different, my aspect is different. OK, I'll find more sources for this. You please consider my question in the beginning of this post please? Waiting your prompt reply. Thank you. Umi1903 (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Dear users, for ones who will take a part in this conversation; Other than top level professional leagues of Turkey were previously not considered as "fully professional" as per the criterion of this project. I'd like to invite you to review the previous unfinished conversation that causes current status of these leagues, sensibly. In 2016, TV rights tender of Süper Leagues and TFF First League was completed as Digiturk -today a subsidiary of BeIN Sports [4]-, respresenting USD500 million for four seasons [5] [6] This tender made Turkish leagues the fourth highest paid league in Europe. So, what kind of investor would dare to pay USD125 million per annum for a TV right package which includes an amateur (or not fully professional) league? I invite you to review this subject neturally, unbiased and without any previous dogma. Thank you.Umi1903 (talk) 20:28, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- I did take a look at the provided sources and also have done my own research. This is the best source I have found. [7] It implies the top four divisions all have professional teams, but teams can be professional without being fully professional. The second division is likely fully professional, but we still need an additional source. SportingFlyer T·C 21:16, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Dear users, for ones who will take a part in this conversation; Other than top level professional leagues of Turkey were previously not considered as "fully professional" as per the criterion of this project. I'd like to invite you to review the previous unfinished conversation that causes current status of these leagues, sensibly. In 2016, TV rights tender of Süper Leagues and TFF First League was completed as Digiturk -today a subsidiary of BeIN Sports [4]-, respresenting USD500 million for four seasons [5] [6] This tender made Turkish leagues the fourth highest paid league in Europe. So, what kind of investor would dare to pay USD125 million per annum for a TV right package which includes an amateur (or not fully professional) league? I invite you to review this subject neturally, unbiased and without any previous dogma. Thank you.Umi1903 (talk) 20:28, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Could you provide sufficient references for some leagues from non-English speaking countries, in which it's specifically stated that the competition is a "fully professional", please? Did you have a chance to read the references I added? They are different than ones which were mentioned in an unfinished thread of 2014 in the archives. They are to-do-point and addressing the core issue, clearly mentioning those leagues represent a professional presence. As I stated, even the General Assembly voting cast is depending on this fact. Can you see the cruciality of this, please? Votes of a third tier club can change presidency of federation! So, what am I supposed to do now? Users who discussed this issue seem they are no longer active. Am I going to invite random users? Whom am I going to convince, how am I going to convince? The point of view of that discussion was different, my aspect is different. OK, I'll find more sources for this. You please consider my question in the beginning of this post please? Waiting your prompt reply. Thank you. Umi1903 (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
This is a pretty ridiculous discussion. If all the teams are professional in a league then the league is professional. There are a lot of sources provided, I think it is more than enough to come to the conclusion they are professional. Picking holes or having an unreachable threshold of evidence is counter-productive.Abcmaxx (talk) 21:54, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- It's not ridiculous. There are three types of football teams: professional, semi-professional, and amateur. Turkey only identifies between professional and amateur, so it's not clear if these clubs are semi-pro or fully pro. We require sources which show the league is fully professional. SportingFlyer T·C 22:04, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Umi1903: What you're looking for are sources that discuss the wages of players in these leagues in detail, showing that everyone playing in these leagues earns a living wage. The sources you've presented so far, either only mention professionalism without necessary detail, or don't address the subject directly. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:01, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
Whilst I agree it looks like the second tier probably is fully professional, it would be useful, using the sources presented or others to confirm where it confirms full professionalism. Whilst this can be an explicit statement it is more often done through confirmation of average salaries of the players indicating that playing football is their sole employment. Editors need to understand there is a difference between this and mere professionalism, in this context meaning that players receive some form of remuneration but that that is not necessarily their only source of income. At the moment, I am not seeing anything explicit that c9nvinces me this can be added to the wider list. Fenix down (talk) 08:27, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
- Hello again, considering feedback of Sir Sputnik and Fenix down, I have conducted a comprehensive search. I found news articles of reputable resources. According to articles, a TFF First League player can earn between TRY 550-600k (gross amount and as of 2014) [8], and according to another club-focused article, Altınordu F.K. paid their players around TRY 450-500k as of 2017 [9]. Income Tax over earnings of football players is 15% in Turkey [10]. By these facts, even if we take the least 'gross amount' into consideration mentioned (TRY 450k as of 2017 which must be around TRY 600k NVP considering YOY inflation between 2017 and 2019), the net income of a footballer in TFF First League is around TRY 382.5k (450k x 85%) per season which is way above for Turkish standards (over GDP per capita PPP). I believe these sources are enough to constitute fact of Turkish lower leagues are "Fully Professional". Please kindly confirm the fact and Turkish leagues to be added into main article. Thank you. Umi1903 (talk) 14:21, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
- Based on this, it would suggest a potential salary of €91k on current exchange rate. This is obviously far in excess of the average annual salary even adjusted for PPP as noted here. My challenge however would be, through ignorance of Turkish, to understand exactly what the source is saying. From the comment above, I could interpret that there is an opportunity to earn this much (i.e. the top players do) rather than that it is an average. Umi, could you please provide a precise word for word translation of the relevant paragraph, it would be useful to have this as an english language quote to support the reference if it is added. Fenix down (talk) 14:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
- Source 1: Habertürk [11]: Paragraph 3, Line 1-6: Stating that they faced difficulties on players' wage payments; Tuna Aktürk, President [of Balıkesirspor] said: "However, our players have never risen against us. They did their job and elated us with such success [promotion to Süper Lig in 2014]. We paid our debts owned to them [players] as soon as we find money [resources]". Stating that average wage of footballers are between Lira 550k and 600k at PTT Birinci Lig [now TFF First League], Aktürk said that the lowest limits of Balıkesirspor is Lira 180k and top limit is set as 400k. Aktürk mentioned that figures are bonus inclusive.
- Source 2: Sporx [12]: Paragraph 2, Line 1-2: The Red-Navy Blues [Altınordu FK], who let their players play for team around Lira 450k-500k, increased their treshold slightly this year. Sources are covering the economical constraing side of professionalism. As all questions are replied, I demand Turkish Leagues to be classified as professional leagues in main article from now on. Thank you. Umi1903 (talk) 16:25, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Based on this, it would suggest a potential salary of €91k on current exchange rate. This is obviously far in excess of the average annual salary even adjusted for PPP as noted here. My challenge however would be, through ignorance of Turkish, to understand exactly what the source is saying. From the comment above, I could interpret that there is an opportunity to earn this much (i.e. the top players do) rather than that it is an average. Umi, could you please provide a precise word for word translation of the relevant paragraph, it would be useful to have this as an english language quote to support the reference if it is added. Fenix down (talk) 14:52, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Dear all, I have had a search to find sources for player contracts, individually, at Turkish lower divisons. I gathered the sources as below:
| Team | Season | Player | Salary | Source | Note |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Eskişehirspor | 2016-2017 | Erkan Zengin | EUR1.7m | [13] | None. |
| Adana Demirspor | 2016-2017 | Mickaël Poté | EUR600k | [14] | None. |
| Adana Demirspor | 2018-2019 | Anderson | EUR600k | [15] [16] [17] | None. |
| Yeni Malatyaspor | 2016-2017 | Muhammet Reis | TRY750k | [18] [19] | Revealed p/a wage at negoation phase. |
Following these additional sources above to constitute the fact that professional players at Turkish lower divisions can make their living with by their contract and their earnings are well above Turkish standards (even most of European lower division standards), my point stands still and I keep demanding Turkish Leagues to be classified as professional leagues in main article from now on. Thank you. This issue must be concluded. Umi1903 (talk) 17:19, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- The first source does seem to indicate full professionalism at least from 2014. The others are less useful as they only refer to individual clubs or players. Think we need more comment from other editors on this but I am reasonably happy that the first source shows FPL status from 2014 onwards, though not for players beforehand. Fenix down (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- I have some misgivings about the first source, considering its about missed wage payments. However, if this sort of problem is an anomaly, and not a regular occurrence, I'd be inclined to agree that the First League is fully pro from 2014 onwards. I share Fenix down's concerns about the others. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:22, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
I've found references that suggest that the Lithuanian A Lyga is fully professional - from the football federation and Lithuanian news articles (this one explicitly states that the entire league is professional). This contrasts with the WikiProject page. The reference provided to show that the A Lyga is not fully professional (here) is an article based on a clearly unsustainable team from nine seasons ago; I cannot find any evidence that any of the eight current clubs are not professional, including newly promoted FK Panevėžys.
Thoughts on adding the A Lyga to the list of fully professional leagues? Mrsmiis (talk) 20:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- In case people haven't seen this discussion in the main Project Football talk pages, I've added the "see also" above... --Philk84 07:59, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks mate! That discussion seemed to be geared more towards the Irish part of my question so I thought it best to stick the Lithuanian question here. Mrsmiis (talk) 08:59, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Sierra Leone : Possible misinterpretation of source
Hi, can editors take a look at the source for Sierra Leone? The 1 cited ref for Sierra Leone looks like a misinterpretation of the source to me. Michael was talking about "the poor structure of "some" Premier League Clubs". I've read that article archived from last year, and as far as I can see, there is nothing in that article authored by Awoko where Michael said that "Sierra Leone National Premier League is not a professional league" in the sense we understand professional for Wikipedia policies relating to football notability. Maybe I've missed something that football fans/editors would be able to shed light on. If my suspicions are correct, maybe it might be useful to set up a task force of some sort to evaluate the source cited in this list/essay as I am concerned about the gravity of the problem. Maybe I've misunderstood something but there is no harm in others checking just to make sure as this essay/list is being cited in numerous AfDs. Also, it appears that some editors are citing this in AfD discussions as if it is a Wiki policy. Although the lead made it quite clear that this list is incomplete, some are lacking sources, it is merely an aid, it is still used by some editors as if it is a policy. Maybe it might be helpful to make it clear in the lead that this is merely an essay and not a policy. Thanks.Tamsier (talk) 17:45, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
- The source says "
... 60% of the players don’t even have any professional contract with their clubs ...
". Leviv ich 17:51, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Table format
I've thought about this for a while now - I think this list would be better served as a table, something like this:
| Nation | League | Fully-professional? | Start | End | Notes | References |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Canada | Canadian Premier League | Yes | 2019 | N/A | [REFERENCE] | |
| Canada | Canadian Soccer Tournament | No | N/A | N/A | [REFERENCE] | |
| Wikistan | Wiki Premier League | Yes | 2010 | 2018 | League is defunct, and was replaced by the Wiki Super League | [REFERENCE] |
| Wikistan | Wiki Super League | Yes | 2019 | N/A | [REFERENCE] | |
| Wikistan | Wiki First Division | No | N/A | N/A | [REFERENCE] |
In that example the WPL was fully-pro between 2010 and 2018, but is now defunct and has been replaced by the WSL. We know that players playing in the WPL between those dates meet WP:NFOOTBALL. The CPL is fully-pro from 2019, and the CST has never been fully-pro.
Thoughts? GiantSnowman 12:49, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- Instead of "Canada", what about "
Canada" using the {{flagof|Canada|size=21|link=Soccer in Canada}}markup? Then, if it's not professional, or was, people can go straight to an article that may give more input? --Philk84 13:13, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, that kind of link is a good idea. GiantSnowman 13:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, I think it makes things clearer, particularly start / end dates. Fenix down (talk) 14:37, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- A table could be helpful, though I'd think if the league has not been fully pro throughout its entire existence, this could be noted in the 'notes' column instead of needing two columns for years. It might also be easier to keep the page divided into sections like it is currently instead of one large table. I'd find it easier to go right to the pro/non-pro sections instead of having to refer to a column. S.A. Julio (talk) 15:03, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, I think it makes things clearer, particularly start / end dates. Fenix down (talk) 14:37, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, that kind of link is a good idea. GiantSnowman 13:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- Wish I'd seen this earlier. It is a fantastic idea - and I like the easy accessibility of important data, particularly the begin and end dates for full professionalism. Jogurney (talk) 19:17, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm just seeing this now, and I agree it's a fantastic idea that would make the information much easier to read. I like the flag idea, too. Leviv ich 23:06, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
What is the status on USL League One, the new American third division league? It has been sanctioned provisionally by USSF as the third tier league, but is it fully professional? Jay eyem (talk) 17:44, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- According to all sources the league is professional.--SirEdimon (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- I've now added USL League One to the list with multiple sources. S.A. Julio (talk) 04:59, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think is appropriate - see my comments down here - what we have is the league saying it is professional and this being repeated. However, being professional does not mean the league is "fully professional" - e.g. it may have many players who received a wage, yet also work elsewhere (or more typically for D2 soccer in the US - college graduates on a short stint in a D2 seasons who in parallel try to advance a non-football (or a coaching) career). Icewhiz (talk) 07:03, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
- I've now added USL League One to the list with multiple sources. S.A. Julio (talk) 04:59, 4 February 2019 (UTC)