Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant
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Merger Proposal
[edit]A quick glance at this article shows it's not really about the "Levant". The vast majority of the article is based on sources discussing a particular part of the Levant , which casts into light on the peculiar usage of the author (who claims to be a Palestinian on his user page , using Hebrew sources and quoting MEMRI-translations) of such wider term. Of all the cities mentioned here: hardly any of them are outside of the Holy Land. It doesn't even link , or use sources from the History of the Arabs article which show that "Arab migrations to the Levant" can be somewhat misleading , as many areas of the "Levant" (The actual Levant ) were part of the Urheimat and ethnogenesis of Arabic-speaking peoples such as the Qedarites , where also the first ever Arabic inscriptions were in places like Transjordan and the Negev).
Some of the sources here are not represnted properly. Regarding Arabization : Ehrlich said that it was a process of initial tribal settlement as well as acculturation , as shown in his source Arabization versus Islamization in the Palestinian Melkite Community during the Early Muslim Period . He neither conflated Arabization with Islamization , nor said it was a wild onslaught as with the Anglo-Saxons and Britain. The "Arab"="Arabian" equation is more of a pop-culture thing than historical reality , but I think it's obvious who are its adherents and believers , given the few spots of sensationalist language in the article.
Ehrlich's study is also divided per region , yet circumstances of one region (Samaria) are superimposed on the entire land. Other sources are anecdotal such as the one discussing the urban Byzantine-Greek minority (Theodoropoulos) , and another one talking about the Middle East at large than the "Levant" (Donner)..
The article also doesn't mention sources which Ehrlich also cites , like reliable archeological sources like The Byzantine-Islamic Transition in Palestine: An Archaeological Approach , The Archaeology of the Early Islamic Settlement in Palestine demonstrate the continuity of Christian majority up until the Mamluk period , which imply that Muslims - the tribal Arabians the editor is so keen on "exposing"- were a minority before the Mamluks.
I believe all the above shows why its preferable that this article be merged into the "Big picture" article , where it logically belongs .
Unless the author discusses neighboring lands like Lebanon and Syria in more depth so that it would really be about the Levant , and not an hideous way of saying "Israel-Palestine-Holy Land" : this article should be merged , as the content in its current state matches another topic , and the topic itself is likely part of ARBECR restrictions . TheCuratingEditor (talk) 15:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hello @TheCuratingEditor, I think you should take back some of your comments. First, you are making comments me as a person and on my background. On Wikipedia, we talk about content, not people. This way of talking is something you can get banned for.
- I modelled this article based on another article, Arab migrations to the Maghreb. If you have relevant sources, you are welcome to add them.
- One final sentence. You say that the article is not about Lebanon and Syria. You should read it again. I think that at least half of it is about places in Syria and Lebanon today. Rajoub570 (talk) 08:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hey . Just finished a wholesome edit . Anyway :
- |First, you are making comments me as a person and on my background. On Wikipedia, we talk about content, not people|
- Sometimes ..you know : we might have unconscious proclivities that effect how we edit. That's besides how the sources' content was depicted here .
- But that revision ..that doesn't look like a Palestinian's bias , even an indifferent one like an Israeli-Arab. Nobody invents discrediting or embarrassing things about themselves ..especially ones that omit from sources.
- If somebody wants to pretend to be a Palestinian : they are going have to do more than just "think like an Arabush" or what ever the scriptwriters in Tel-Aviv like to cook up when making another Fauda season. Just saying ducks have to quack like ducks ..
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- |I modelled this article based on another article, Arab migrations to the Maghreb|
- Is there a credible reason to assume the processes in North Africa are analogous in the Levant , especially where the Arabic language originated from there compared to the Germanic Vandals ?.
- More Arabian tribes actually migrated to the "Levant" (at least how you defined it) than North Africa , where they were influential enough to cause problems . But when seeing the implications of combined available peer-reviewed sources on language and non-Muslim settlement : they tend to imply that acculturation as the lead cause of Arabization , both in Palestine and in other parts of the Levant . Islamization came later while it was associated with foreign settlement of variable scales . There were other factors at play such as the presence of Sufi saints and Ehrlich's thesis , the dwindling of ecclesiastical authorities.. But that was the whole fallacy of the original revision: Islamization isn't related to Arabization ..Islam isn't an ethnic religion ..but then again , who thinks so besides Bat Ye'or and Robert Spencer ?.
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- |You say that the article is not about Lebanon and Syria. You should read it again. I think that at least half of it is about places in Syria and Lebanon today|
- I just did . In the earlier revison : 'Palestine' is used 14 times , 'Jerusalem' 4 times , 'Judaean Desert' , 'Samaria', 'Southern Syria' , 'Gaza' , 'Hebron', 'Bayt Aynun' , 'Transjordan' , and "Bethlehem" all just once : that's over at least two dozen mentions. As an independent noun referring to the Northern Levant : 'Syria' is used 4-5 times. Other cities like 'Damascus' 8 times throughout the article , and around 7 in modern day South-Lebanon and Syria are only mentioned primarily in the Rashidun era section , the one talking about troops heading to Iberia. The Impact section also only talks about Palestine , and the "see also" includes a link specifically about Ottoman Palestine (Which I just remembered , I'll remove it when I am done here) .
- Even with the current revision I just published : it still uses 'Palestine' 17 times.It doesn't look like my initial skimming of the earlier revision missed this focus towards it . It's expectable given the sources , especially Gill whose own work was originally in Hebrew that's mostly based on the Cairo Genizah , and others like Donner are general ones (Who doesn't even believe that Islam as we know it today existed in the Rashidun and much of the Umayyad periods ).
- The original form insinuated that Arabic-speakers of the era must have been predominantly transplanted Arabians , an illusion because of undue weight and ignoring things such as the mawali class who's affiliation with Arab tribes was more political than historical , as always with genealogies being more about ideology than reality , and the spread of the Arabic language , such as church records or when the first Arabic translations of the Bible came out.
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- I'll concede that the article is more than about the Holy Land , despite its clear predominance. I think it's better to add more archeological sources in the future so as to verify the scale of impact , and the ones that account for cultural acculturation as the factor in the Arabization of the Levant's interior and littoral areas , and to bring more sources specialized in either Lebanon or Syria . Otherwise in my view , a merger with the Palestine demographic history is preferable.
- When I see people write as in the prior revision , I would just suggest they all go to r/askhistorians , or Conservapedia. POV and undue weight isn't allowed for a exact reason , and certainly against these purposes. But in the end : it's none of my business . I just care that articles of such individuals are Non-POV and adhere to RS sources faithfully , and censor what's against the rules. Other measures are up to the administrators.
- Happy editing , Rajoub570. TheCuratingEditor (talk) 16:38, 27 September 2024 (UTC)